Originally posted by Magiknight Even if I do have more trouble adapting to change as I get older that doesn't change the fact that the games have changed. Now they are shallower, emptier, shorter, easier, quicker....
Actually games are BETTER then ever. Yes, yes, ... did not like all changes to all games I like to play ... BUT for sure there were MORE good changes then bad one.
And yes, I have kind'a nostalgic memories to my first car .... but, no, thank, would never change my current car for old one even if somebody would still be making same cars.
Have good memories to time have spent playing Pacman ... but no, thanks. Will not play again and Pacman IS NOT better then nowadays games.
If new games are better, could you guys please give us examples. If it was simple nostalgia and selective memories, surely you could tell us what is better about new games, since we are incapable of recognizing change for the better.
They offer more convenience and less artificial timesinks. But that doesn't make a game good or bad by itself. If we're so blind it must be easy to point to example after example of newer games being as good if not better than games that came a decade before them. Side by side comparisons should show it.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
This nostalgia argument is getting old, so old it brings a tear to my eye reminiscing about the first time I heard it.
If this argument was true people would not change. Everyone would be supporting the same political party, playing the same sports, like all the same genres in entertainment, same authors and same food. Is this the case for any poster here?
Blaming inability to change is just an excuse to dismiss the issues that are being raised. You will find this argument is used at work, in politics, in the entertainment industry, used everywhere in fact. If you have any objections to the current programme you are being old fashioned etc.
More sophisticated, in depth entertainment has been replaced by a dumbed down crowd pleaser since time immemorial. So why does anyone think this could not happen to MMOs or gaming?
The first huge crowd drawer in ancient Rome was the theatre. Brought in from the Greeks it was a huge hit, people would flock to the amphitheatres to see the plays. Historical plays led to spectacle which eventually became gladiatorial contests. The amphitheatres on which had been played some of the greatest works every written became the circuses of Rome. Theatre faded away becoming a literary medium, from then on only bread and circuses would do!
Dumbing down for the masses is not new, but if the concept is new to you get used to it, it is rather in vogue.
If new games are better, could you guys please give us examples. If it was simple nostalgia and selective memories, surely you could tell us what is better about new games, since we are incapable of recognizing change for the better.
They offer more convenience and less artificial timesinks. But that doesn't make a game good or bad by itself. If we're so blind it must be easy to point to example after example of newer games being as good if not better than games that came a decade before them. Side by side comparisons should show it.
What you're asking for would be like asking fans of 70's rock and fans 90's rock for definitive reasons why their chosen sound is better. It's just not measurable in a fact based way. It's too subjective a question, as it all boils down to what an individual prefers. There's no fact about it.
The only definitive thing to define is a comprehensive list of what each design is focused on, perceived strengths and weaknesses. IE SWG focused on interdependent community play. SWTOR focused on story driven bioware style roleplaying. What's better would depend on who likes what or prefers what, the "better" part remains a subjective opinion.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by Magiknight Even if I do have more trouble adapting to change as I get older that doesn't change the fact that the games have changed. Now they are shallower, emptier, shorter, easier, quicker....
If new games are better, could you guys please give us examples. If it was simple nostalgia and selective memories, surely you could tell us what is better about new games, since we are incapable of recognizing change for the better.
They offer more convenience and less artificial timesinks. But that doesn't make a game good or bad by itself. If we're so blind it must be easy to point to example after example of newer games being as good if not better than games that came a decade before them. Side by side comparisons should show it.
What you're asking for would be like asking fans of 70's rock and fans 90's rock for definitive reasons why their chosen sound is better. It's just not measurable in a fact based way. It's too subjective a question, as it all boils down to what an individual prefers. There's no fact about it.
The only definitive thing to define is a comprehensive list of what each design is focused on, perceived strengths and weaknesses. IE SWG focused on interdependent community play. SWTOR focused on story driven bioware style roleplaying. What's better would depend on who likes what or prefers what, the "better" part remains a subjective opinion.
Really? So you don't have any examples in other words. 70s rock isn't an argument. Please stop it.
I listed the example of the space game in the old starwars and the space game in the new one.
I listed the crafting system of the old starwars to the new one.
In warcraft when you hit the button, the skill fires instantly. That is better than any of the old games and is so vital with having your avatar be an extension of yourself. No wonder WOW took off. It was clearly better at combat reaction time. But Im looking for others opinions not my own of what new games do better. I don't know if wow is a new game.
2 quick examples of how my opinion was formed. And one example of what im looking for.
Readers should be able to decide for themselves what is better for them personally. All im asking for is opinions.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
The games are the same except for the time factor which has been reduced and the random people you will probably never see again you sometimes get placed with. So, the older games had community and was slower paced. It meant more when you progressed back then.
If new games are better, could you guys please give us examples. If it was simple nostalgia and selective memories, surely you could tell us what is better about new games, since we are incapable of recognizing change for the better.
They offer more convenience and less artificial timesinks. But that doesn't make a game good or bad by itself. If we're so blind it must be easy to point to example after example of newer games being as good if not better than games that came a decade before them. Side by side comparisons should show it.
First would be problem to define WHICH games exactly are "NEW" and which "OLD". Can you specify some examples so I can compare?
But in general (and depending on game of course, not ALL "new" games are better): better physics, better and more fun quests, incredibly fun spells or abilities where one must execute in proper order and pay attention to get desired maximized effect, great scenery, moving avatars with mouse instead of WASDF (wondering how I was able for years to play with that horror), .... Best so far Wow, Swtor, .... ahm, ok, then CO (which is unfortunately very shallow even if fun for fast paced combat), TSW, War, Aoc, EQ2, ...
If new games are better, could you guys please give us examples. If it was simple nostalgia and selective memories, surely you could tell us what is better about new games, since we are incapable of recognizing change for the better.
They offer more convenience and less artificial timesinks. But that doesn't make a game good or bad by itself. If we're so blind it must be easy to point to example after example of newer games being as good if not better than games that came a decade before them. Side by side comparisons should show it.
What you're asking for would be like asking fans of 70's rock and fans 90's rock for definitive reasons why their chosen sound is better. It's just not measurable in a fact based way. It's too subjective a question, as it all boils down to what an individual prefers. There's no fact about it.
The only definitive thing to define is a comprehensive list of what each design is focused on, perceived strengths and weaknesses. IE SWG focused on interdependent community play. SWTOR focused on story driven bioware style roleplaying. What's better would depend on who likes what or prefers what, the "better" part remains a subjective opinion.
Really? So you don't have any examples in other words. 70s rock isn't an argument. Please stop it.
I listed the example of the space game in the old starwars and the space game in the new one.
I listed the crafting system of the old starwars to the new one.
In warcraft when you hit the button, the skill fires instantly. That is better than any of the old games and is so vital with having your avatar be an extension of yourself. No wonder WOW took off. It was clearly better at combat reaction time. But Im looking for others opinions not my own of what new games do better. I don't know if wow is a new game.
2 quick examples of how my opinion was formed. And one example of what im looking for.
Readers should be able to decide for themselves what is better for them personally. All im asking for is opinions.
No, Distopia is right. Ultimately, the answer is subjective.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
If new games are better, could you guys please give us examples. If it was simple nostalgia and selective memories, surely you could tell us what is better about new games, since we are incapable of recognizing change for the better.
They offer more convenience and less artificial timesinks. But that doesn't make a game good or bad by itself. If we're so blind it must be easy to point to example after example of newer games being as good if not better than games that came a decade before them. Side by side comparisons should show it.
What you're asking for would be like asking fans of 70's rock and fans 90's rock for definitive reasons why their chosen sound is better. It's just not measurable in a fact based way. It's too subjective a question, as it all boils down to what an individual prefers. There's no fact about it.
The only definitive thing to define is a comprehensive list of what each design is focused on, perceived strengths and weaknesses. IE SWG focused on interdependent community play. SWTOR focused on story driven bioware style roleplaying. What's better would depend on who likes what or prefers what, the "better" part remains a subjective opinion.
Really? So you don't have any examples in other words. 70s rock isn't an argument. Please stop it.
I listed the example of the space game in the old starwars and the space game in the new one.
I listed the crafting system of the old starwars to the new one.
In warcraft when you hit the button, the skill fires instantly. That is better than any of the old games and is so vital with having your avatar be an extension of yourself. No wonder WOW took off. It was clearly better at combat reaction time. But Im looking for others opinions not my own of what new games do better. I don't know if wow is a new game.
2 quick examples of how my opinion was formed. And one example of what im looking for.
Readers should be able to decide for themselves what is better for them personally. All im asking for is opinions.
No, Distopia is right. Ultimately, the answer is subjective.
Ultimately, no shit.
Did you read where I said I was looking for opinions? Did you choose to ignore that part because "ultimately" it's subjective. I guess you could say a 5 year old on guitar hero is better than Clapton too. But the readers are not so damn dumb that they cant make up their own minds. So let them. Lets hear the examples. I know it subjective.
Is it possible to give a direct answer? Geez.
BTW I know its just opinions. OK? Its subjective. We knew that on page 1. Why respond at all?
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
If new games are better, could you guys please give us examples. If it was simple nostalgia and selective memories, surely you could tell us what is better about new games, since we are incapable of recognizing change for the better.
They offer more convenience and less artificial timesinks. But that doesn't make a game good or bad by itself. If we're so blind it must be easy to point to example after example of newer games being as good if not better than games that came a decade before them. Side by side comparisons should show it.
First would be problem to define WHICH games exactly are "NEW" and which "OLD". Can you specify some examples so I can compare?
But in general (and depending on game of course, not ALL "new" games are better): better physics, better and more fun quests, incredibly fun spells or abilities where one must execute in proper order and pay attention to get desired maximized effect, great scenery, moving avatars with mouse instead of WASDF (wondering how I was able for years to play with that horror), .... Best so far Wow, Swtor, .... ahm, ok, then CO (which is unfortunately very shallow even if fun for fast paced combat), TSW, War, Aoc, EQ2, ...
Geez, ok after 2005 is new. Is that specific enough? How about after june 18 2005 @ 11:45 am is new.
Examples from actual gameplay that influenced your opinion. Moving with a mouse only was possible in old games.
I said wow blows the older games away when it come to skills firing immediately. Lotro does music better than UO but falls short compared to swg. those are examples of my opinions.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Did you read where I said I was looking for opinions? Did you choose to ignore that part because "ultimately" it's subjective. I guess you could say a 5 year old on guitar hero is better than Clapton too. But the readers are not so damn dumb that they cant make up their own minds. So let them. Lets hear the examples. I know it subjective.
Is it possible to give a direct answer? Geez.
BTW I know its just opinions. OK? Its subjective. We knew that on page 1. Why respond at all?
Because in the end no matter how much you try to quantify and rationalize your choices, people will make up their own mind.
There are a ton of real life examples where quantifying your choices leads nowhere. Do you honestly think the one with the fastest response time, the greatest processing power and the longest list of features comes always on top?
Some products may simply be holistically better or hit the right spot.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Did you read where I said I was looking for opinions? Did you choose to ignore that part because "ultimately" it's subjective. I guess you could say a 5 year old on guitar hero is better than Clapton too. But the readers are not so damn dumb that they cant make up their own minds. So let them. Lets hear the examples. I know it subjective.
Is it possible to give a direct answer? Geez.
BTW I know its just opinions. OK? Its subjective. We knew that on page 1. Why respond at all?
Because in the end no matter how much you try to quantify and rationalize your choices, people will make up their own mind.
There are a ton of real life examples where quantifying your choices leads nowhere. Do you honestly think the one with the fastest response time, the greatest processing power and the longest list of features comes always on top?
Some products may simply be holistically better or hit the right spot.
Again, no shit. If it's so pointless, don't respond. I asked a simple question. The answer is simple to give. Just an opinion. If you don't want to join the conversation, why butt in?
You don't have any examples. See, easy.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Did you read where I said I was looking for opinions? Did you choose to ignore that part because "ultimately" it's subjective. I guess you could say a 5 year old on guitar hero is better than Clapton too. But the readers are not so damn dumb that they cant make up their own minds. So let them. Lets hear the examples. I know it subjective.
Is it possible to give a direct answer? Geez.
BTW I know its just opinions. OK? Its subjective. We knew that on page 1. Why respond at all?
Because in the end no matter how much you try to quantify and rationalize your choices, people will make up their own mind.
There are a ton of real life examples where quantifying your choices leads nowhere. Do you honestly think the one with the fastest response time, the greatest processing power and the longest list of features comes always on top?
Some products may simply be holistically better or hit the right spot.
Again, no shit. If it's so pointless, don't respond. I asked a simple question. The answer is simple to give. Just an opinion. If you don't want to join the conversation, why butt in?
You don't have any examples. See, easy.
If you expect only the people who don't think it's pointless to reply, how will you know if it is pointless or not?
If you started a discussion about how the universe is either geo- or heliocentric, should I refrain from pointing out that both are wrong?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
May I ask why we should take this "it's all nostalgia" argument seriously when in every other facet of my life my opinion has grown and changed? I don't miss power rangers. My favorite show of all time, Breaking Bad, just ended. I don't listen to alt rock anymore. My favorite band, Between the Buried and Me, is still around. Why is it only videogames, and in particular MMORPGs that make me miss the old times?
Originally posted by worldalpha People are generally nostalgic. That feeling about games is no different. Everything was bigger, badder, more superior when I was a kid, is a common feeling that isn't always based on reality.
70's Rock, man! All that other stuff since then is just trash! Back then, we had it just right!
And for anyone who might doubt it: C&T with classic 70s! MMmmm and this classic! And the biggest hit of all.It really is a pretty good analogy for the problem with 'old games were the bestest'. Selective memory hard at work.(I remember a handful of 70s bands quite fondly, too; without forgetting the 70s included Disco and all kinds of other musically revolting dreck.)
Wow. Talk about selective memory. I recall the 70's with music like this and this. Kinda like the old Ford Model T argument, eh? worthless...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Holophonist May I ask why we should take this "it's all nostalgia" argument seriously when in every other facet of my life my opinion has grown and changed? I don't miss power rangers. My favorite show of all time, Breaking Bad, just ended. I don't listen to alt rock anymore. My favorite band, Between the Buried and Me, is still around. Why is it only videogames, and in particular MMORPGs that make me miss the old times?
I don't think it's anyone's contention that a person thinks all things were better in the past, just that when they do make blanket statements of the sort, there's a good chance nostalgia is playing a hefty role. Consider what you've just said. You think Breaking Bad is the best show you've ever seen. Yet there are people who zealously believe that the best years of television occurred in the 90s or the aughts. How would you come to terms with that mindset? Are they right and your opinions wrong? Are you just too casual of a viewer or not discerning enough to understand the appeal of all those old shows? Or might there be something inherently jaundiced about making such all-encompassing statements as "X is simply better and everything after Y sucks"?
Yet MMO vets have been trying to make precisely this subjective argument again and again. You're right, though, to ask what is it in particular that makes MMORPGs fall into the category of having been better before than now. I'm inclined to think it's solely because of context. If we were on CNN.com people would be arguing old politics vs new, on a rock site we'd be arguing old bands vs new, on a yachting site we'd be arguing old boats vs new. And when the only evidence being presented is "I prefer this style of governance/Fender/propeller over the new ones" it's nigh impossible to do more than debate semantics and the persuasiveness of the argument being made.
Originally posted by Holophonist May I ask why we should take this "it's all nostalgia" argument seriously when in every other facet of my life my opinion has grown and changed? I don't miss power rangers. My favorite show of all time, Breaking Bad, just ended. I don't listen to alt rock anymore. My favorite band, Between the Buried and Me, is still around. Why is it only videogames, and in particular MMORPGs that make me miss the old times?
I don't think it's anyone's contention that a person thinks all things were better in the past, just that when they do make blanket statements of the sort, there's a good chance nostalgia is playing a hefty role. Consider what you've just said. You think Breaking Bad is the best show you've ever seen. Yet there are people who zealously believe that the best years of television occurred in the 90s or the aughts. How would you come to terms with that mindset? Are they right and your opinions wrong? Are you just too casual of a viewer or not discerning enough to understand the appeal of all those old shows? Or might there be something inherently jaundiced about making such all-encompassing statements as "X is simply better and everything after Y sucks"?
Yet MMO vets have been trying to make precisely this subjective argument again and again. You're right, though, to ask what is it in particular that makes MMORPGs fall into the category of having been better before than now. I'm inclined to think it's solely because of context. If we were on CNN.com people would be arguing old politics vs new, on a rock site we'd be arguing old bands vs new, on a yachting site we'd be arguing old boats vs new. And when the only evidence being presented is "I prefer this style of governance/Fender/propeller over the new ones" it's nigh impossible to do more than debate semantics and the persuasiveness of the argument being made.
Ok two problems.
1. If somebody says some show from the 90s is better than Breaking Bad then it's probably either because they truly believe that they prefer that show over Breaking Bad, or because they haven't given Breaking Bad a fair shot. I wouldn't say that they're just a victim to nostalgia because their favorite show happens to be from an earlier time. What even is the argument you guys are trying to make? That the main reason we prefer older games is due to rose colored classes or nostalgia? Then I'd ask the same thing that I already have: Why isn't this the case with TV, movies or music? I haven't heard an answer to this.
2. As people have already pointed out, we're not simply saying "I prefer this type of game over the new ones." People have given specific examples of how games have changed and why they don't like those changes. But for some reason you guys just set it all aside and make up unlikely alternatives to why we prefer something different.
I think it's far more likely that we just prefer those types of games. Take single player RPGs for example. For a long time I've thought that they too have been becoming more mediocre and less "hardcore." They seem to be easier and have more of a focus on cutscenes, scripted events, etc. You probably would've made the same argument about human nature regarding nostalgia and sentiment that you're making right now. However, the games Demon Souls and Dark Souls kind of hurt your argument because they both have precisely filled the role that I was longing for for years. Going back to the "good ol'" days isn't some unattainable mythological goal.
Comments
Actually games are BETTER then ever. Yes, yes, ... did not like all changes to all games I like to play ... BUT for sure there were MORE good changes then bad one.
And yes, I have kind'a nostalgic memories to my first car .... but, no, thank, would never change my current car for old one even if somebody would still be making same cars.
Have good memories to time have spent playing Pacman ... but no, thanks. Will not play again and Pacman IS NOT better then nowadays games.
If new games are better, could you guys please give us examples. If it was simple nostalgia and selective memories, surely you could tell us what is better about new games, since we are incapable of recognizing change for the better.
They offer more convenience and less artificial timesinks. But that doesn't make a game good or bad by itself. If we're so blind it must be easy to point to example after example of newer games being as good if not better than games that came a decade before them. Side by side comparisons should show it.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
This nostalgia argument is getting old, so old it brings a tear to my eye reminiscing about the first time I heard it.
If this argument was true people would not change. Everyone would be supporting the same political party, playing the same sports, like all the same genres in entertainment, same authors and same food. Is this the case for any poster here?
Blaming inability to change is just an excuse to dismiss the issues that are being raised. You will find this argument is used at work, in politics, in the entertainment industry, used everywhere in fact. If you have any objections to the current programme you are being old fashioned etc.
More sophisticated, in depth entertainment has been replaced by a dumbed down crowd pleaser since time immemorial. So why does anyone think this could not happen to MMOs or gaming?
The first huge crowd drawer in ancient Rome was the theatre. Brought in from the Greeks it was a huge hit, people would flock to the amphitheatres to see the plays. Historical plays led to spectacle which eventually became gladiatorial contests. The amphitheatres on which had been played some of the greatest works every written became the circuses of Rome. Theatre faded away becoming a literary medium, from then on only bread and circuses would do!
Dumbing down for the masses is not new, but if the concept is new to you get used to it, it is rather in vogue.
What you're asking for would be like asking fans of 70's rock and fans 90's rock for definitive reasons why their chosen sound is better. It's just not measurable in a fact based way. It's too subjective a question, as it all boils down to what an individual prefers. There's no fact about it.
The only definitive thing to define is a comprehensive list of what each design is focused on, perceived strengths and weaknesses. IE SWG focused on interdependent community play. SWTOR focused on story driven bioware style roleplaying. What's better would depend on who likes what or prefers what, the "better" part remains a subjective opinion.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Really? So you don't have any examples in other words. 70s rock isn't an argument. Please stop it.
I listed the example of the space game in the old starwars and the space game in the new one.
I listed the crafting system of the old starwars to the new one.
In warcraft when you hit the button, the skill fires instantly. That is better than any of the old games and is so vital with having your avatar be an extension of yourself. No wonder WOW took off. It was clearly better at combat reaction time. But Im looking for others opinions not my own of what new games do better. I don't know if wow is a new game.
2 quick examples of how my opinion was formed. And one example of what im looking for.
Readers should be able to decide for themselves what is better for them personally. All im asking for is opinions.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
Immersion is king, yes indeed.
Doesn't Mr Kern repeat what people in this thread have been saying? Doesn't make him right, but do people disagree with him?
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
First would be problem to define WHICH games exactly are "NEW" and which "OLD". Can you specify some examples so I can compare?
But in general (and depending on game of course, not ALL "new" games are better): better physics, better and more fun quests, incredibly fun spells or abilities where one must execute in proper order and pay attention to get desired maximized effect, great scenery, moving avatars with mouse instead of WASDF (wondering how I was able for years to play with that horror), .... Best so far Wow, Swtor, .... ahm, ok, then CO (which is unfortunately very shallow even if fun for fast paced combat), TSW, War, Aoc, EQ2, ...
No, Distopia is right. Ultimately, the answer is subjective.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Ultimately, no shit.
Did you read where I said I was looking for opinions? Did you choose to ignore that part because "ultimately" it's subjective. I guess you could say a 5 year old on guitar hero is better than Clapton too. But the readers are not so damn dumb that they cant make up their own minds. So let them. Lets hear the examples. I know it subjective.
Is it possible to give a direct answer? Geez.
BTW I know its just opinions. OK? Its subjective. We knew that on page 1. Why respond at all?
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Geez, ok after 2005 is new. Is that specific enough? How about after june 18 2005 @ 11:45 am is new.
Examples from actual gameplay that influenced your opinion. Moving with a mouse only was possible in old games.
I said wow blows the older games away when it come to skills firing immediately. Lotro does music better than UO but falls short compared to swg. those are examples of my opinions.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Because in the end no matter how much you try to quantify and rationalize your choices, people will make up their own mind.
There are a ton of real life examples where quantifying your choices leads nowhere. Do you honestly think the one with the fastest response time, the greatest processing power and the longest list of features comes always on top?
Some products may simply be holistically better or hit the right spot.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Yup.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Again, no shit. If it's so pointless, don't respond. I asked a simple question. The answer is simple to give. Just an opinion. If you don't want to join the conversation, why butt in?
You don't have any examples. See, easy.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Yup. That's why im not playing.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
If you expect only the people who don't think it's pointless to reply, how will you know if it is pointless or not?
If you started a discussion about how the universe is either geo- or heliocentric, should I refrain from pointing out that both are wrong?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I play oldschool UO servers far more than any new themepark.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I don't think it's anyone's contention that a person thinks all things were better in the past, just that when they do make blanket statements of the sort, there's a good chance nostalgia is playing a hefty role. Consider what you've just said. You think Breaking Bad is the best show you've ever seen. Yet there are people who zealously believe that the best years of television occurred in the 90s or the aughts. How would you come to terms with that mindset? Are they right and your opinions wrong? Are you just too casual of a viewer or not discerning enough to understand the appeal of all those old shows? Or might there be something inherently jaundiced about making such all-encompassing statements as "X is simply better and everything after Y sucks"?
Yet MMO vets have been trying to make precisely this subjective argument again and again. You're right, though, to ask what is it in particular that makes MMORPGs fall into the category of having been better before than now. I'm inclined to think it's solely because of context. If we were on CNN.com people would be arguing old politics vs new, on a rock site we'd be arguing old bands vs new, on a yachting site we'd be arguing old boats vs new. And when the only evidence being presented is "I prefer this style of governance/Fender/propeller over the new ones" it's nigh impossible to do more than debate semantics and the persuasiveness of the argument being made.
Ok two problems.
1. If somebody says some show from the 90s is better than Breaking Bad then it's probably either because they truly believe that they prefer that show over Breaking Bad, or because they haven't given Breaking Bad a fair shot. I wouldn't say that they're just a victim to nostalgia because their favorite show happens to be from an earlier time. What even is the argument you guys are trying to make? That the main reason we prefer older games is due to rose colored classes or nostalgia? Then I'd ask the same thing that I already have: Why isn't this the case with TV, movies or music? I haven't heard an answer to this.
2. As people have already pointed out, we're not simply saying "I prefer this type of game over the new ones." People have given specific examples of how games have changed and why they don't like those changes. But for some reason you guys just set it all aside and make up unlikely alternatives to why we prefer something different.
I think it's far more likely that we just prefer those types of games. Take single player RPGs for example. For a long time I've thought that they too have been becoming more mediocre and less "hardcore." They seem to be easier and have more of a focus on cutscenes, scripted events, etc. You probably would've made the same argument about human nature regarding nostalgia and sentiment that you're making right now. However, the games Demon Souls and Dark Souls kind of hurt your argument because they both have precisely filled the role that I was longing for for years. Going back to the "good ol'" days isn't some unattainable mythological goal.