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[Column] WildStar: A Tailored Experience

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  • jbombardjbombard Member UncommonPosts: 599
    Originally posted by TheAncient
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    It’s a sentiment that Carbine Executive Producer Jeremy Gaffney agrees with, often saying that the easiest way to torch $100 million is to release an MMO with poor content at levelcap.

    I'm pretty sure the way to torch $100M is to release an MMO where the game is focused on consuming content at level cap.

    Hey, there is going to be something for the non-hardcore raiders too - bankrolling the game for the raiders. That sounds like a lot of fun.

    Seriously, it's weird watching different developers and publishers repeat the same mistakes over and over again and expect that their game will end up differently. It boggles me.

    Absolutely! And for me all I see is yet another attempt to try to upstage WoW.

    We need something new, and I mean really new. This idea that we blitz though material just to focus on end game is tired & clichéd at best. Sure Wildstar has a few novel approaches as you level, but fundamentally it's just the same stuff as we've seen over and over. Also this overdriven hype distracts (as intended) but as gamers we need to look beyond the shiny to push developers to do much, much better in terms of better gameplay.

    The MMORPG field is stagnating, we already have had our Waterworld with SWTOR, it's time for our Usual Suspects to bust things up.

    I honestly don't think that is the case.  I don't think they are trying to upstage WoW, it's just that so much of their development team is from WoW.  The previous experience of the development team is likely having a big impact on how they are designing this game and that is why we are seeing a lot of the overused MMO design elements like instanced group content.  However they apparently have a much more modular design that lets them do some interesting things, and the dynamic aspect of the World is interesting.  At the end of the day, it comes down to whether or not it is fun, and to figure that out I'll have to play it.  

  • GuyClinchGuyClinch Member CommonPosts: 485

    I think they are trying to upstage wow. Is there something wrong with that? WoW itself was just basically upstaged EQ. Wildstar is shaping up to be the premiere PC based themepark MMO from what I have seen..

    I feel ESO might be the biggest MMO overall because of the player base coming from Skyrim (which was probably bigger then Warcraft III and the fact that it plays on consoles).

     
  • jbombardjbombard Member UncommonPosts: 599
    Originally posted by GuyClinch

    I think they are trying to upstage wow. Is there something wrong with that? WoW itself was just basically upstaged EQ. Wildstar is shaping up to be the premiere PC based themepark MMO from what I have seen..

    I feel ESO might be the biggest MMO overall because of the player base coming from Skyrim (which was probably bigger then Warcraft III and the fact that it plays on consoles).

     

    From a design standpoint yes there is.  I don't think WoW was trying to upstage EQ, despite that being the end result.  What they were trying to do is make an MMORPG that was more fun and accessible to the masses.  When you focus on upstaging something, you lose focus of the real goal which is to make a fun game that people enjoy playing.  That is what I think they are trying to do with Wildstar.  Would that be happy if they out sold WoW, you bet your ass.  But if that is how they are approaching their game design they will fail, and I think they know that.  

     

    While Blizzard had a good fanbase the vast majority of WoW players never played Warcraft 3. (at least if you go by the numbers)  WoW succeeded because they had a well designed product.  If ESO and Wildstar focus on making a good game instead of worrying about WoW, they will do fine.

  • FusionFusion Member UncommonPosts: 1,398
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Voqar

    If they ditch CREDD the game might be worth playing, but having facilitated cheating in a game is lame, especially in a premium P2P model game.  I'm just not interested in MMORPGs where cheating is not only condoned but is provided by the hosting company.

     

    I also think 40 man raiding sucks and is a bad idea.  Way too few people can and will do it.  Way too hard to keep guilds going that can do it.  It was hard enough to do back in the day with fewer online gaming and MMORPG options, but these days, with people having the attention span of flies and flitting around between games so much...good luck.  The very few paramilitary style guilds might pull it off but it's generally a waste of content, which is why bliz (one of the smartest developers ever) moved away from it.  Creating content for few people is dumb.  You don't have to make content ez-mode but going with smaller raid sizes makes for content that's way more likely to get done.

     

     

    They are charging 1.5 to 2 times the going rate of a standard Boxed fee. Basically, the same price as GW2 (Which was priced as such because it had no sub) Plus they have their CREDD system is is a means to get real money into the game. And since it will be available at launch, the economy will be based on the value of CREDD and not on what players generate in the game. Then on top of that, they want' $15 bucks/month???? Hloy crap that's just greedy. I'll pay a monthly fee in a game if and ONLY if the publisher takes measures against RMT, otherwise, no. Not gonna play it.

    The CREDD/PLEX is actually one of the best ways currently to combat RMT passively. Only way RMT can compete with CREDD/PLEX is if they push their prices so low where it's pretty much non-profitable or they take hold of the CREDD/PLEX market (which i don't see happening either). People use RMT because they're lazy and if they have a legal and safe way of doing it via game-feature, they'll use it, instead of the illegal way that might even get their account terminated.

    No, the economy won't be based on CREDD value, it'll be based on supply and demand, like in any other MMO with a viable market system and an economy.
    http://neocron-game.com/ - now totally F2P no cash-shops or micro transactions at all.
  • ZoltosZoltos Member UncommonPosts: 60
    Originally posted by Myrdyn

     

    except the combat isnt like TERA

    the combat is GW2

    the whole game feels like WOW meets GW2, on some distant space planet

    This sounds like a big win IMO!

    Really looking forward to this game. All I care about is having loads of fun content in mmorpg, and so far Wildstar is looking really great!

     

     

    Games Played: Anarchy Online,Star Wars Galaxies,WOW,Eve,Darkfall,Vanguard, Fallen Earth,SWTOR,GW2,Tera,ESO,Wildstar, Black Desert, Archeage & Albion Online
    Now playing: Conan Exiles & Rocket League
    Games looking forward to: Diablo 4! & Star Citizen?

  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,503
    Originally posted by Zapzap
    Originally posted by Samhael
    I am dismayed with the news of 40-man content. I'm not sure why developers think that we think it's fun. It's usually a pretty big pain in the ass to assemble a group of 40 players at the same time for a raid or whatnot. And a few months after launch, it's going to be near impossible.  I hope they re-tailor it so the same content can scale down based on group size.

    The devs have said that 40 man content realistically will be logistically impossible for most guilds and is not targeted towards casual guilds but being made for the hardcore guilds.  There is 20 man raid content for casual no competitive guilds.

    As it should be imo.  There should be rewards for being in a dedicated 'hard core' guild.  However I feel that anybody should have the opportunity to experience all content so to that end hopefully there will be a way for the big raids to scale down.

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

    In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.

  • SnabeltorskSnabeltorsk Member CommonPosts: 29
    a beta key would be nice
  • NadiaNadia Member UncommonPosts: 11,798
    Originally posted by Myrdynn

    the combat is GW2

    the whole game feels like WOW meets GW2, on some distant space planet

    if Carbine has ample support for nonraid max level content - I will be happy

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,857
    Originally posted by Fusion
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Voqar

    If they ditch CREDD the game might be worth playing, but having facilitated cheating in a game is lame, especially in a premium P2P model game.  I'm just not interested in MMORPGs where cheating is not only condoned but is provided by the hosting company.

     

    I also think 40 man raiding sucks and is a bad idea.  Way too few people can and will do it.  Way too hard to keep guilds going that can do it.  It was hard enough to do back in the day with fewer online gaming and MMORPG options, but these days, with people having the attention span of flies and flitting around between games so much...good luck.  The very few paramilitary style guilds might pull it off but it's generally a waste of content, which is why bliz (one of the smartest developers ever) moved away from it.  Creating content for few people is dumb.  You don't have to make content ez-mode but going with smaller raid sizes makes for content that's way more likely to get done.

     

     

    They are charging 1.5 to 2 times the going rate of a standard Boxed fee. Basically, the same price as GW2 (Which was priced as such because it had no sub) Plus they have their CREDD system is is a means to get real money into the game. And since it will be available at launch, the economy will be based on the value of CREDD and not on what players generate in the game. Then on top of that, they want' $15 bucks/month???? Hloy crap that's just greedy. I'll pay a monthly fee in a game if and ONLY if the publisher takes measures against RMT, otherwise, no. Not gonna play it.

    The CREDD/PLEX is actually one of the best ways currently to combat RMT passively. Only way RMT can compete with CREDD/PLEX is if they push their prices so low where it's pretty much non-profitable or they take hold of the CREDD/PLEX market (which i don't see happening either). People use RMT because they're lazy and if they have a legal and safe way of doing it via game-feature, they'll use it, instead of the illegal way that might even get their account terminated.

    No, the economy won't be based on CREDD value, it'll be based on supply and demand, like in any other MMO with a viable market system and an economy.

    They could take a lesson from SE and simply delete RMT'd currency regardless of who is in possession of it. Sure it sucks for a few but even if you lose money in a sting, you'll get it back in the long run through a healthier economy. Not to mention its no different that in real life. If you are unfortunate enough to have counterfeit money on you, It's pulled from circulation and you take the loss. If gaming publishers started keeping stricter records of in-game trade transactions, they can easily trace illegal currency and simply delete it at given times. Once it gets out that you really will more often than not, lose RMT'd money, and thus your real money, players will stop buying it. But we need publishers who care about the quality of the game over the profits they are losing by not getting in on the action.

  • XiaokiXiaoki Member EpicPosts: 4,045


    Originally posted by GuyClinch
    I think they are trying to upstage wow. Is there something wrong with that? WoW itself was just basically upstaged EQ. Wildstar is shaping up to be the premiere PC based themepark MMO from what I have seen..
    Yes, there is something wrong with the direction Carbine is taking with the design of certain aspects and features of Wildstar and its not that they are trying to upstage WoW, they are trying to upstage WoW from 2005.


    Blizzard abandoned 40 man raids for a reason, sadly it seems Carbine will have to discover that on their own.

  • RaquisRaquis Member RarePosts: 1,029

    I and assume most players are only going to subscribe a view moths,

    very dumb to ask a subscription inlight of all the great games of next year.

    ever quest next will have the most players for the longest time.

    [mod edit]

  • RogoshRogosh Member UncommonPosts: 208
    I think its kind of funny most of you think 40 man raiding is hard, lol. Guess I am just to old to remember raiding 72 man in EQ without vent or any kind of voice chat.

    "Its better to look ugly and win than pretty and lose"

  • banadonabanadona Member UncommonPosts: 16
    I think they will realize that more people doesn't mean harder content. I hope that happens sooner than later. If somebody is for the 40 man raids he/she probably never had to lead a group, even as small as 10 people. Besides, what if I am a raider but I just want to raid with like 10 peeps I know for years? I'm not saying that they shouldn't make 40 man raids but make 20s and 10s as well so more people can enjoy.
  • YalexyYalexy Member UncommonPosts: 1,058


    Originally posted by banadona
    I think they will realize that more people doesn't mean harder content. I hope that happens sooner than later. If somebody is for the 40 man raids he/she probably never had to lead a group, even as small as 10 people. Besides, what if I am a raider but I just want to raid with like 10 peeps I know for years? I'm not saying that they shouldn't make 40 man raids but make 20s and 10s as well so more people can enjoy.

    If you think it's hard to lead a group of 40, then come play EvE Online as a fleetcommander and lead some 500 people in a battle for a few hours, and you need to rely on your people as you probably won't see 1/3 of your fleet as they're located somewhere else than yourself.

    And for your smaller groups... Wildstar will have dungeons and raids for 5/10/20 groups aswell and the 40-player raids are just there, because alot of people repeatetly asked for those since they were abandoned in WoW.

  • OzmodanOzmodan Member EpicPosts: 9,726

    The reason Wow dropped 40 man groups, they were almost impossible to fill and keep filled.  Good luck trying to find and keep 40 people playing for 4 or more hours.

    I can see Elder Scrolls doing ok, they already have a following, but I don't think this game will do that well.  I have not seen anything that makes me want to play it and I don't see a lot of interest on this board.  I wish them luck and hope I am wrong.

  • aspekxaspekx Member UncommonPosts: 2,167
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    It’s a sentiment that Carbine Executive Producer Jeremy Gaffney agrees with, often saying that the easiest way to torch $100 million is to release an MMO with poor content at levelcap.

    I'm pretty sure the way to torch $100M is to release an MMO where the game is focused on consuming content at level cap.

    ^this.

     

    while i hold locust players partly responsible, i hold developers equally so for creating and recreating a system that rewards topped out high endgame play only. character growth could be so much more than just vertical ascension time and again.

    "There are at least two kinds of games.
    One could be called finite, the other infinite.
    A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
    an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
    Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  • jbombardjbombard Member UncommonPosts: 599
    Originally posted by Ozmodan

    The reason Wow dropped 40 man groups, they were almost impossible to fill and keep filled.  Good luck trying to find and keep 40 people playing for 4 or more hours.

    I can see Elder Scrolls doing ok, they already have a following, but I don't think this game will do that well.  I have not seen anything that makes me want to play it and I don't see a lot of interest on this board.  I wish them luck and hope I am wrong.

     

    We almost never seemed to be able to get a full 40, had to pug the people that didn't show up, and often spent so long looking for the fillers in IF that we would end up loosing more and end up calling it quits after a couple hours in IF.  If you did manage to fill it still ended up being like trying to herd 40 chickens on crack.

     

    If you want to do large scale encounters the only way I think it really works is with drop in drop out encounters that scale and rewards that are based on participation but also scale up slightly with more people.

     

  • MatryoshkaMatryoshka Member UncommonPosts: 98
    Originally posted by Siveria

    what will make wildstar honestly diffrent that it just doesn't become another Tera?

    Actual decent amount of end game content and regular updates. That alone is why Tera was not good.

  • Sho0terMcgavinSho0terMcgavin Member UncommonPosts: 301
    Originally posted by jbombard
    Originally posted by Ozmodan

    The reason Wow dropped 40 man groups, they were almost impossible to fill and keep filled.  Good luck trying to find and keep 40 people playing for 4 or more hours.

    I can see Elder Scrolls doing ok, they already have a following, but I don't think this game will do that well.  I have not seen anything that makes me want to play it and I don't see a lot of interest on this board.  I wish them luck and hope I am wrong.

     

    We almost never seemed to be able to get a full 40, had to pug the people that didn't show up, and often spent so long looking for the fillers in IF that we would end up loosing more and end up calling it quits after a couple hours in IF.  If you did manage to fill it still ended up being like trying to herd 40 chickens on crack.

     

    If you want to do large scale encounters the only way I think it really works is with drop in drop out encounters that scale and rewards that are based on participation but also scale up slightly with more people.

     

    While this is true.  You also didn't have LFD/LFR functions.  Cross-server partying etc.  If you put that into the equation, I bet those last few spots would fill up pretty quickly.

    image
  • John_GrimmJohn_Grimm Member UncommonPosts: 14

    I cannot believe the comments here.

    40 man is nothing, In EvE with just an hour notice and you can get hundrets of players on CTAs and Home Defence Fleets. 

    I admit that i have only played one ThemPark MMOs end game, LOTRO, but even there it did not use to be hard getting ppl to run the Watcher/DN. 

    Now the raids being gear locked, that was a b****, tbh i'm in two minds about mechanics like that. :(

    Steel and Iron guard me well,
    or else i'm doomed and damned
    to Hell!

  • k-damagek-damage Member CommonPosts: 738
    Originally posted by Xiaoki

     


    Originally posted by Zapzap

    Originally posted by Samhael I am dismayed with the news of 40-man content. I'm not sure why developers think that we think it's fun. It's usually a pretty big pain in the ass to assemble a group of 40 players at the same time for a raid or whatnot. And a few months after launch, it's going to be near impossible.  I hope they re-tailor it so the same content can scale down based on group size.
    The devs have said that 40 man content realistically will be logistically impossible for most guilds and is not targeted towards casual guilds but being made for the hardcore guilds.  There is 20 man raid content for casual no competitive guilds.
    Yeah, great, except small guilds will most likely have problems doing the 20 man raids too.

     


    Wildstar's focus on "hardcore" raiding has me the most worried about the game's future.

    I am welcoming this hardcore gamer's stance with wide arms open. It was harder to form 40 men bands, but it was what made raiding so much more exciting. Large scale battles > mini brawls.

    We've been served 10 years of casual mmorpgs already, it's time to give a bit of love to HCG again. If you want casual raiding, just check all the other 25167826178 mmos on the market, and please leave the glimpse of hope we have here :>

    ***** Before hitting that reply button, please READ the WHOLE thread you're about to post in *****

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    This hardcore v casual thing Has got nothing to do with difficulty. Difficult and highly tuned dungeons with no merging over time is what we want, both hardcore and casual. It does not suit the crowd that joined mmorgs and think raiding = guaranteed progress and loot, but then again they never got to experience it.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • Enigma7337Enigma7337 Member UncommonPosts: 38

    I hope all the people that want to get a beta key to "try it out" never do. I don't want this game flooded with flex raiding.

    40 man hard content or go back to wow. 

     

    Thanks

     

  • Enigma7337Enigma7337 Member UncommonPosts: 38
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by k-damage
    Originally posted by Xiaoki

    Originally posted by Zapzap

    Originally posted by Samhael I am dismayed with the news of 40-man content. I'm not sure why developers think that we think it's fun. It's usually a pretty big pain in the ass to assemble a group of 40 players at the same time for a raid or whatnot. And a few months after launch, it's going to be near impossible.  I hope they re-tailor it so the same content can scale down based on group size.
    The devs have said that 40 man content realistically will be logistically impossible for most guilds and is not targeted towards casual guilds but being made for the hardcore guilds.  There is 20 man raid content for casual no competitive guilds.
    Yeah, great, except small guilds will most likely have problems doing the 20 man raids too.

    Wildstar's focus on "hardcore" raiding has me the most worried about the game's future.

    I am welcoming this hardcore gamer's stance with wide arms open. It was harder to form 40 men bands, but it was what made raiding so much more exciting. Large scale battles > mini brawls.

    We've been served 10 years of casual mmorpgs already, it's time to give a bit of love to HCG again. If you want casual raiding, just check all the other 25167826178 mmos on the market, and please leave the glimpse of hope we have here :>

    I agree that people should let the game be focused on hardcore raiding if that's the game they want to make. I don't get why people would ask them to change direction when there are other games available. I don't think there are that many games not focused on raiding as the pinnacle reward though, but still they should be allowed to make the game they want.

    On the other hand I will be surprised if there are really that many hardcore raiders out there to completely fund the game. I will be somewhat surprised if there are. It's okay to tell the rest of the mmo community to shove off if they don't like it, but then later if it doesn't work out please don't blame the "casuals" because you couldn't fund your own game style. We see those threads here from time to time blaming "casuals".

    I'm also curious how many casuals will end up playing and staying in this game and funding it for the raiders. It always puzzles me when I see casuals say they don't mind accepting second hand crap progression in a raider game when they could play something better or more attuned to their playstyle.

    It will also be interesting to see how the different raid group types battle it out. Will the 40 team raiders expect better loot than the 10 and 20 team raiders? It always seems a core aspect to raiding is "I have better loot than you because I deserve it". Those will be interesting community details to watch unfold.

     

    The problem is nobody knows how much casual content is actually in the game.

    People read these articles and make judgments on 5% of the content. Oh well .. there are millions of players out there and the people here on MMORPG seem to be missing all the good info.

    OH well.

  • XiaokiXiaoki Member EpicPosts: 4,045


    Originally posted by k-damage
    Originally posted by Xiaoki   Originally posted by Zapzap Originally posted by Samhael I am dismayed with the news of 40-man content. I'm not sure why developers think that we think it's fun. It's usually a pretty big pain in the ass to assemble a group of 40 players at the same time for a raid or whatnot. And a few months after launch, it's going to be near impossible.  I hope they re-tailor it so the same content can scale down based on group size.
    The devs have said that 40 man content realistically will be logistically impossible for most guilds and is not targeted towards casual guilds but being made for the hardcore guilds.  There is 20 man raid content for casual no competitive guilds.
    Yeah, great, except small guilds will most likely have problems doing the 20 man raids too.   Wildstar's focus on "hardcore" raiding has me the most worried about the game's future.
    I am welcoming this hardcore gamer's stance with wide arms open. It was harder to form 40 men bands, but it was what made raiding so much more exciting. Large scale battles > mini brawls.

    We've been served 10 years of casual mmorpgs already, it's time to give a bit of love to HCG again. If you want casual raiding, just check all the other 25167826178 mmos on the market, and please leave the glimpse of hope we have here :>



    Longevity of the game, thats why I advocate a change.


    If Wildstar's end game focuses on hardcore 40 man raiding then the casuals will go play something else.

    The casuals leaving will be the death knell for the game's subscription model.

    Then all of the pro-F2P people will crow that Wildstar was a big fat failure because it had a subscription.


    The MMO market will no longer sustain a hardcore 40 man raid end game. You can complain that "the hardcores need love too, you casuals have a million other MMOs to play" but that wont reverse what the MMO genre has become.


    A hardcore raid focused MMO with a subscription would have done well back in 2006 but in 2014 its going to go down in flames. The flames of $100 million being torched just as Executive Producer Jeremy Gaffney said.

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