Originally posted by Ashikuro I disagree with guy above me: Elder Scrolls is perfect for an MMO.
I've played through 4 beta events now and so gat they are doing it right. It's 100% Elder Scrolls. There is absolutely no gaps in the look and feel, lore, or gameplay. It feels like Skyrim 2.0 ...except its online with other players. The MMO part feels right too. It's nearly perfect now, I can't wait to see it all as they add more polish.
I can't go into specifics because of the NDA and I don't want to get booted from future beta events, but this game is what we've all been waiting for in a next gen MMO.
I wish I could say that made me happy, but I much prefer the feel of Daggerfall and Morrowind to that of Oblivion or Skyrim in regards to gameplay, the graphics would go to Skyrim of course.
Since I haven't played the beta I can't say whether or not I feel the current build of TESO is lacking in that memorable Elder Scrolls feel. But some beta videos I saw recently appeared to look much better than previous.
I can say with certainty that the author of this article Adam is SPOT ON about bringing to attention to the MAJOR CONCERN that's been plaguing this MMO from DAY 1.
And frankly it's a little worrisome that ZOS only more recently realized they needed to make the experience ALOT more Elder Scrollsy, even though it should have been obvious to them from the start! A recent poll on Tamriel Foundry even proved this.
Ultimately I remain hopeful at this point since we do know that ZOS got the message. How far they want to drive home that point "Needs to be an Elder Scrolls game" remains to be seen.
Originally posted by azzamasin I can safely say there's enough Elder Scrolls. But what there isn't enough of is long term MMO. I can only hope they design an MMO that will last and I fully intend to play this game but my fears is this will turn into another "3 monther"
Until devs start focusing on grouping at all levels like the MMORPGs of old, then most MMORPGs will continue to be "3 mothers," because it's pretty tough to crank out enough solo easy mode content to keep what is essentially an online single player RPG rolling.
In other words, when your MMORG is 90% solo easy mode content and plays like a weak single player RPG, then players will play it and be done with it like a single player RPG. What little endgame these games ship with usually doesn't keep people busy for very long - those that do the endgame.
The other thing is, most single player RPGs do single player content WAY better than the solo content you get in these solo ez mode MMORPGs. In this case, Skyrim is one of the best single player RPGs ever. There is no way that ESO will match what Skyrim offers. It's going to be a weak and watered down Skyrim with the gimmick being that it's online and has some occasional grouping.
I would really love to see MMORPG devs stop trying to be everything to everyone and to return to the MMORPG roots of challenge and group-based gameplay with minimal solo period. THOSE games have longevity (some of the original classics are still going, still sub-based).
Some people say the MMORPG genre is flooded. I don't entirely agree. It's flooded with crappy games that are glorified single player games. There surely isn't nearly enough true MMORPGs around, and there hasn't been a serious/real MMORPG (with proper/classic design) of quality made in years.
Well there will be 16 group dungeons and 16 public dungeons while you level up. So there will be some grouping available before 50. Then at 50 there will be the AvA, Adventure zones for 4 to 24 man groups and the Master dungeons.
And as far as end game, there will be a number of choices. You will only get about 30% of your skills by level 50 and will need to continue to progress your character to get more. One way that continues the ES game will be the 50+ content. Gives you the ability to see a second faction's content with the same character. The content will be about level 53 or so. They said you will have to work to get through it. An example they gave was having to use a fire skill to kill trolls or you won't get past them without help. They also said that the 3rd play through would probably need a second player to complete. You will get the same gear and Veteran rewards as the PvP, Adventure zones and master dungeons.
I think they are on the right path for an ES game. The questing will be similar with exploration, caves to explore and finding quests as you go. You can pick up quests anywhere at any level, but may not be able to complete them until you gain enough experience. For an ES fan, I believe there will be enough content with the 50+ and 50++ to keep you playing. But paying the sub for just the PvE may turn some off.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them? R.A.Salvatore
There is hardly any Elder Scrolls in this game, if I take the things that are more like Elder Scrolls on one side and compare them to the things that are more like GW2 on the other side, I guarantee you the only two things left from the elder scrolls side will be NPC names and city names.
What we have instead is another clone of DAOC which was probably a market decision since they saw that NC soft was doing one as well. As a Elder Scrolls veteran from Daggerfall on, and someone who played DAOC when it began I can tell you I could not stand DAOC and loved all the Elder Scrolls games. It is everything Elder Scrolls is not, its restrictive of where you can go, who you can kill, class structure is simplistic, sandbox elements are Nill it forces faction alignment in a series of games that never did such a thing.
I Dont lke it for the same reason I did not like SWTOR, it was a fast cash cow clone of another popular game from the past, however it unfortunately was nothing like Star Wars, and this game is nothing like Elder scrolls.
Limited exploration / freedom to tiers of level based 'zones' (you can't proceed to next zone/area and explore viably because the mobs will instagib you)
Quests hubs ala typical themepark MMO that you follow from 1 to max (sure you can "explore" the zone you're in but that won't do you any good)
AvA being meaningless instanced 'demolition derby' like WvW in GW2 that has no impact on the persistant world itself
Quests giving loot all the way to max level, making crafters pretty much useless for the entire leveling curve and only becoming useful at max crafting level (should be that quests only give basic items "whites" or materials and anything better is either dungeons, rare mob drops or crafters)
Not being able to even see enemy faction players when you're in their part of the world
Containers / Nodes etc that give loot, mats etc being static and thus blasted on the wiki's in a week
Never once from Arena through Skyrim did I ever think gee I wish there were a crap ton of other people completely destroying every aspect of the game that they possibly can.
^^ This, couldn't say it better.
+1 from me as well.
The column is nice too, pretty much summarises the feelings of many ES fans. And this part:
"For me, The Elder Scrolls Online needs to be just that: The Elder Scrolls. While there are conflicts within the world, it isn't a place given to mass PvP, clandestine factions, and rigorous leveling."
should be plastered all over Zenimax, especially around the desk of Matt, the faction-dude
Originally posted by Ashikuro I disagree with guy above me: Elder Scrolls is perfect for an MMO.
I've played through 4 beta events now and so gat they are doing it right. It's 100% Elder Scrolls. There is absolutely no gaps in the look and feel, lore, or gameplay. It feels like Skyrim 2.0 ...except its online with other players. The MMO part feels right too. It's nearly perfect now, I can't wait to see it all as they add more polish.
I can't go into specifics because of the NDA and I don't want to get booted from future beta events, but this game is what we've all been waiting for in a next gen MMO.
I too have experienced the beta, sadly to me it felt more like a generic MMO with a Elder Scrolls skin, but nothing about it felt even remotely Elder Scrolls.
As one of the previous posters said, this game feels like a series of compromises in an attempt to fit it into the standard MMO mold.
- Archery and magic with "soft-lock". Basically you are allowed to miss a bit and the arrows will home in on the target. This is the biggest dealbreaker for me. The main enjoyment of the singleplayer TES was getting good with the bow and being able to pull off longrange shots without the help of any locking system. Don't even get me started on the fact that you don't need arrows in TESO but instead have an unlimited ammo supply.
- Environment detail has been reduced. The environments in TESO don't feel as fleshed out and rich in detail as they do in single player.
- Sneaking feels like some tacked on sidesystem simply there for people who want to avoid fights, not to be used during a fight to solve it in a more tactical way than just smashing everyone's face in. I can bet you 100 bucks we aren't allowed to sneak after we pull aggro.
- Mob AI looks like it is simplified. You get the aggro "click" and they all rush straight at you. They don't get suspicious or hear sounds beforehand, they are just on you instantly. The single player AI would search for you, but it would never directly jump on you unless it directly saw you. I'm guessing you can't hide during combat either to trigger NPC search mode instead of the nonstop glue-on-me-until-one-of-us-dies-mode.
- Realistic aggro trigger has been replaced with a small circle around mobs. You can wait 20 meters from a boss fight and it will not aggro you. In skyrim you could aggro stuff from 50 meters away. Again, they are trying to simplify the game to fit the MMO mold.
All these things will add up, and I won't believe anything some beta testers say. These things alone are enough to make the game play completely differently. I'm guessing realistic loot (you only get what your opponent was wearing) has been replaced with loot tables as well.
Endless Ammo supply? You have got to be kidding....
Having to keep track of my Arrows and make sure I had enough was for me a pleasure, I enjoyed it, it added realism, immersion, and helped to remind me that I was roleplaying a character that could die and if I didn't do the simple stuff like check my arrow supply my character WOULD die.
Also having to actually AIM my shots in Skyrim was a blessed and refreshing change to TAB targeting for Archery in MMOs. I very much enjoy having to Aim.
I loved both the Elder Scrolls series and DAoC, for different reasons. I did enjoy both however no matter how crazy that sounds.
But I stopped enjoying DAoC once the revamp hit and they took Arrows away and made them "Magic". Bah Humbug. I understand they had to make some changes to make this RPG series into a MMORPG, but taking away the Individual Arrows/Bolts and replacing them with a "Magic Bolt" was not necessary AT ALL.
TESO is not a game I will be purchasing or playing at all. Thanks for the tip.
(I love Archers and Archery in MMOs, but if a MMO I play has magic arrows/ endless arrow supply then I don't play that class at all anymore... and I won't start a new MMO that has this fracked up magic arrow system either. I have already played enough MMOs with this crap and I won't spend my money on another one.)
Originally posted by Ozivois Wouldn't it be irresponsible for the devs of ESO to NOT "MMO-ise" this version of their series??
You have to take the IP and make it work it an MMO environment by adding features that make player-with-player and player-vs-player interaction meaningful and challenging.
I challenge the author to suggest specifically how these guys could create a great MMORPG as ESO without including the features that essentially make a game a MMORPG. It would make for a more stimulating conversation, at minimum.
Sure!
Do attributes (strength, intelligence, dexterity, will power, etc) make a game NOT an MMO?
Do major and minor skills to build the character you want make a game NOT an MMO?
Speaking of skills, do class, race, weapon, guild specific skills make a game an MMO?
Does a game HAVE to have PvP to be an MMO?
Does a game HAVE to have a war going on to be an MMO?
Will having players level only by using their chosen skills make a game NOT an MMO? Must there be XP rewards?
Where is the playable Imperial race? Oh, right. 9 races is divisible by 3 factions better than 10.
I've had a few posts about this very topic. I cannot find the thread I started (I searched and failed) talking about specific single player Elder Scrolls Games features and how they would work in an MMORPG and showing how the Zenimax decisions are MMO first, Elder Scrolls second, the first and foremost: 3 faction PvP (DAoC style).
For me, the MMO-ization would be no Nerevarine or Dragonborn that saves the world. Instead of ONE player playing the game, you now have thousands, hopefully millions playing to take into account. No fiddling with lore, mechanics (well, maybe a little with mechanics), and especially features need to be done to make it an MMO.
[EDIT] FINALLY found my post and thread found here
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
"But some worry that there won't be enough Elder Scrolls in the MMO."
Actually, I worry if there is enough MMO in this Elder Scroll. For playing a solo game, I won't pay a sub. If TESO does not deliver a sound MMORPG experience, it will loose much more subbers than with unsatisfied fanboys, I am sure.
"it should be all about exploration" - fine. But while we're at it I want a pause button... now THAT would be TES. Also... you do know that TES games are quest-driven, don't you? The difference is that there is no exclamation mark and they have other ways of giving them to you. Still, ultimately... go to place x and get item y... kill many things on the way.
I'll have to somewhat disagree with this one.
I think they are quest driven if you do the quests. A friend of mine played through morrowind and Oblivion and only did the few quests he found "out in the wild" so to speak. Didn't finish the main quest never did any of the guild quests.
Also, though I have found a few kill x quests in these games, they do seem to be about more than "killing x amount of things".
Last night in lotro, while doing those horrid hytbold dailies, I rescued 2 Rohirrim and killed 10 spiders. When I tried to engaged the Rohirrim in conversation not only did they not have any dialogue but they just vanished after a few seconds.
Yet, saving one of the grey manes was far more satisfying. Sure, the LOTRO quest is just a daily quest but many mmo's tend to have their quests a bit on the cheap.
I think ESO is sort of "doing right" in the case that you will find quests out in the world just like an Elder Scrolls game. But, in an elder scrolls game you can forgo the quests and still enjoy yourself. I wonder if the same can be true for this incarnation?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
MMOs have had a checked history when it comes to adherence to the lore that an IP represents. But never more so than with the modern MMO where lore is a secondary concern.
I am sure you can remember how in solo games the reason you were doing something in game used to get a lot of coverage in the pamphlet or even booklet you would get with the game. That's right I said a booklet. Today you will find it hard to find the lore and reason you are playing in the single sheet you get in your box or the online manual.
So this is not just confined to MMOs. But MMOs more than solo player have a tendency to distort the IP's world. MMOs demand a mechanics that does not fit every IP. Todays easyMMOde MMOs demand a rigid play style that has problems with any sort of complexity.
Does the IP have more than two factions? Would there be player races who are pacifists? Does the IP not have MMO staples like a tank class or not have ninjas with guns?
Over the years lore has been downgraded to an irrelevance, the only game out in the last five years that has bucked that trend is TSW to my knowledge. When you play you do not need an iota of game knowledge to play, the hand that guides your quests explains everything.
One test you can put the game to, has anything been announced that is not WoW template easymode? That's a test EQNext has failed so far. If that's what ESO is doing I would hazard it will be no different for the lore.
Pesonally i think there is so much Elder scrolls in the game that it may fail as an MMo, as an MMO has requirements much different from an online RPG..
You talk about spending almost 200 hours with Skyrim... 200 hours for an MMo means its only starting out..
I really hope that next to sattisfying the Elder scrolls crowd (to which the whole game is catered) they can add enough to make it interesting for the MMO crowd too..
If the OP is worries there is not enough elder scrolls in the game, he has been living under a big chunck of rock for the last year or so, i would have expected more from someone writing a coverpiece on this website. People like the writer of this pile of .. give people the wrong opinion about TESO.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
You talk about spending almost 200 hours with Skyrim... 200 hours for an MMo means its only starting out..
I currently have 922 hours in skyrim.
Though most of that is with one character I do have an "alt" have have messed with a few other characters "here and there".
I suppose my point is that a compelling single player game that allows a player freedom to just entertain themselves can teach these mmo's a thing or two.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus Pesonally i think there is so much Elder scrolls in the game that it may fail as an MMo, as an MMO has requirements much different from an online RPG..You talk about spending almost 200 hours with Skyrim... 200 hours for an MMo means its only starting out.. I really hope that next to sattisfying the Elder scrolls crowd (to which the whole game is catered) they can add enough to make it interesting for the MMO crowd too..If the OP is worries there is not enough elder scrolls in the game, he has been living under a big chunck of rock for the last year or so, i would have expected more from someone writing a coverpiece on this website. People like the writer of this pile of .. give people the wrong opinion about TESO.
Hasn't Zenimax mentioned something about 150 hours? I have over 1500 hours in Skyrim, almost twice that in Morrowind. Instead of using what has already been done by Bethesda, they have re-written pretty much the whole game to fit their MMO DAoC resurrection. The "spirit" of The Elder Scrolls single player games (for me, which would translate into an awesome MMORPG in my opinion) is very lacking in this incarnation of the series.
Other than names and places, can you cite what TES:O has in place that reminds you of Elder Scrolls games?
If this game was set in a totally new land with totally new lore, would you think, "Hey! This is just like the Elder Scrolls games!"?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Appealing to every group of players and gameplay styles will never work in an mmo format, the fact that there is AvA will keep me for far more than 3 months alone though.
Haxus Council Member 21 year MMO veteran PvP Raid Leader Lover of The Witcher & CD Projekt Red
I Think the game maybe will at first look like elder scroll game with nice atmosphare and su but soon you will be depending on raids large grouping and pvp if you wish to build up your characters skills and gear.
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus Pesonally i think there is so much Elder scrolls in the game that it may fail as an MMo, as an MMO has requirements much different from an online RPG..
You talk about spending almost 200 hours with Skyrim... 200 hours for an MMo means its only starting out..
I really hope that next to sattisfying the Elder scrolls crowd (to which the whole game is catered) they can add enough to make it interesting for the MMO crowd too..
If the OP is worries there is not enough elder scrolls in the game, he has been living under a big chunck of rock for the last year or so, i would have expected more from someone writing a coverpiece on this website. People like the writer of this pile of .. give people the wrong opinion about TESO.
Hasn't Zenimax mentioned something about 150 hours? I have over 1500 hours in Skyrim, almost twice that in Morrowind. Instead of using what has already been done by Bethesda, they have re-written pretty much the whole game to fit their MMO DAoC resurrection. The "spirit" of The Elder Scrolls single player games (for me, which would translate into an awesome MMORPG in my opinion) is very lacking in this incarnation of the series.
Other than names and places, can you cite what TES:O has in place that reminds you of Elder Scrolls games?
If this game was set in a totally new land with totally new lore, would you think, "Hey! This is just like the Elder Scrolls games!"?
It was 150 hrs of questing to level 50. Not including dungeons, caves, exploration, crafting, PvP and so on. Also, after finishing your story, you will only have about 30% of your skills. So you need to continue to progress your character.
They have another 150 hrs for the ES PvE crowd after level 50. That is one of the other factions you can play through with level 50+ mobs. Then another 150 hours to play through the 3rd faction with 50++ mobs that will probably need a second player to help you.
I do agree though that it would have been fun to have a PvP type of server so you could go to other faction areas for open world PvP. But they went with the single server and shards idea, so not going to happen.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them? R.A.Salvatore
Originally posted by Vidir I Think the game maybe will at first look like elder scroll game with nice atmosphare and su but soon you will be depending on raids large grouping and pvp if you wish to build up your characters skills and gear.
So far they have said that PvP, Adventure zones, Master dungeons and the 50+ 50++ content will all get you the same type of gear. As well as earn you veteran points to be able to purchase gear. So you don't have to do just one type of end game content to get the best gear. You can play the way you want and still earn it.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them? R.A.Salvatore
Many people fail to realize that Elder Scrolls and MMO do not have to be mutually exclusive.
The task of ZOS is simple in my mind:
1. Make the game a REAL Elder Scrolls game; this while NOT making it feel like another generic MMO.
2. Make sure there's plenty of stuff to do once people reach level cap.
That's essentially what they need to do.
The REAL ES is going to be difficult because there will be many other players doing the same thing as you. All running around killing the same things running through the same story. An MMO is generic when you have the basic themepark setup. Now it will be a little different as far as being able to go anywhere in your faction area and take quests in any order at any time. And finding caves and hidden areas through exploration. But there will still be a level requirement for completing quests.
I like the look of the end game so far. They seem to have learned from the big mistake that SWTOR made. That is not allowing level cap players to continue to progress without jumping into the dungeon grind. In ES you can take your level capped character and go play another faction with mobs level 50+ and see all of the other factions quests and complete their story. Then do it a third time. As well as the adventure zone for 4 to 24 man groups, Master dungeons and the AvA. So a lot more options than many other MMOs because you can earn the same gear and skills by playing the way you want.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them? R.A.Salvatore
When I read anything about Elder Scrolls Online it just seems a generic fantasy style MMO and not the unique experience Skyrim was and continues to be for many players. I just don't see Zenimax duplicating the Skyrim experience online. Now if Todd Howard was in charge I might feel more confident, but he has said he is not interested in making an online Elder Scrolls. With Elder Scrolls Online and now the Elder Scrolls Anthology released, I wonder if this is the end for the single player games. Say it aint' so!
It's funny how ESO sems to be such a lightning rod for complaints about the MMO genre in general. You've got something you don't like about MMOs? You can put ESO somewhere in your rant and make it fit.
(snip)
"it's not a sandbox" - trendy 2009 opinion noted.
It's an MMO in the TES universe. What's not to like?
If you were expecting something different maybe this would be a good time to gaze at your bellybutton, and ponder what you thought it would be...then ask yourself "just what part of MMO did I not understand?"
It's a trendy 2012-13 opinion (look at the upcoming releases).
and why wouldnt we expect that when the Elder Scrolls games are some of the most successful SP sandboxes in history? If they made a Don't Starve MMO i would expect that to be a sandbox too.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Comments
I wish I could say that made me happy, but I much prefer the feel of Daggerfall and Morrowind to that of Oblivion or Skyrim in regards to gameplay, the graphics would go to Skyrim of course.
Since I haven't played the beta I can't say whether or not I feel the current build of TESO is lacking in that memorable Elder Scrolls feel. But some beta videos I saw recently appeared to look much better than previous.
I can say with certainty that the author of this article Adam is SPOT ON about bringing to attention to the MAJOR CONCERN that's been plaguing this MMO from DAY 1.
And frankly it's a little worrisome that ZOS only more recently realized they needed to make the experience ALOT more Elder Scrollsy, even though it should have been obvious to them from the start! A recent poll on Tamriel Foundry even proved this.
I described the change that was noticed in TESO builds here, if you're interested have a look: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5981457#5981457
Ultimately I remain hopeful at this point since we do know that ZOS got the message. How far they want to drive home that point "Needs to be an Elder Scrolls game" remains to be seen.
How does one person crowd around a screen?
Well there will be 16 group dungeons and 16 public dungeons while you level up. So there will be some grouping available before 50. Then at 50 there will be the AvA, Adventure zones for 4 to 24 man groups and the Master dungeons.
And as far as end game, there will be a number of choices. You will only get about 30% of your skills by level 50 and will need to continue to progress your character to get more. One way that continues the ES game will be the 50+ content. Gives you the ability to see a second faction's content with the same character. The content will be about level 53 or so. They said you will have to work to get through it. An example they gave was having to use a fire skill to kill trolls or you won't get past them without help. They also said that the 3rd play through would probably need a second player to complete. You will get the same gear and Veteran rewards as the PvP, Adventure zones and master dungeons.
I think they are on the right path for an ES game. The questing will be similar with exploration, caves to explore and finding quests as you go. You can pick up quests anywhere at any level, but may not be able to complete them until you gain enough experience. For an ES fan, I believe there will be enough content with the 50+ and 50++ to keep you playing. But paying the sub for just the PvE may turn some off.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
There is hardly any Elder Scrolls in this game, if I take the things that are more like Elder Scrolls on one side and compare them to the things that are more like GW2 on the other side, I guarantee you the only two things left from the elder scrolls side will be NPC names and city names.
What we have instead is another clone of DAOC which was probably a market decision since they saw that NC soft was doing one as well. As a Elder Scrolls veteran from Daggerfall on, and someone who played DAOC when it began I can tell you I could not stand DAOC and loved all the Elder Scrolls games. It is everything Elder Scrolls is not, its restrictive of where you can go, who you can kill, class structure is simplistic, sandbox elements are Nill it forces faction alignment in a series of games that never did such a thing.
I Dont lke it for the same reason I did not like SWTOR, it was a fast cash cow clone of another popular game from the past, however it unfortunately was nothing like Star Wars, and this game is nothing like Elder scrolls.
My fears for TESO are:
+1 from me as well.
The column is nice too, pretty much summarises the feelings of many ES fans. And this part:
"For me, The Elder Scrolls Online needs to be just that: The Elder Scrolls. While there are conflicts within the world, it isn't a place given to mass PvP, clandestine factions, and rigorous leveling."
should be plastered all over Zenimax, especially around the desk of Matt, the faction-dude
I too have experienced the beta, sadly to me it felt more like a generic MMO with a Elder Scrolls skin, but nothing about it felt even remotely Elder Scrolls.
As one of the previous posters said, this game feels like a series of compromises in an attempt to fit it into the standard MMO mold.
- Archery and magic with "soft-lock". Basically you are allowed to miss a bit and the arrows will home in on the target. This is the biggest dealbreaker for me. The main enjoyment of the singleplayer TES was getting good with the bow and being able to pull off longrange shots without the help of any locking system. Don't even get me started on the fact that you don't need arrows in TESO but instead have an unlimited ammo supply.
- Environment detail has been reduced. The environments in TESO don't feel as fleshed out and rich in detail as they do in single player.
- Sneaking feels like some tacked on sidesystem simply there for people who want to avoid fights, not to be used during a fight to solve it in a more tactical way than just smashing everyone's face in. I can bet you 100 bucks we aren't allowed to sneak after we pull aggro.
- Mob AI looks like it is simplified. You get the aggro "click" and they all rush straight at you. They don't get suspicious or hear sounds beforehand, they are just on you instantly. The single player AI would search for you, but it would never directly jump on you unless it directly saw you. I'm guessing you can't hide during combat either to trigger NPC search mode instead of the nonstop glue-on-me-until-one-of-us-dies-mode.
- Realistic aggro trigger has been replaced with a small circle around mobs. You can wait 20 meters from a boss fight and it will not aggro you. In skyrim you could aggro stuff from 50 meters away. Again, they are trying to simplify the game to fit the MMO mold.
All these things will add up, and I won't believe anything some beta testers say. These things alone are enough to make the game play completely differently. I'm guessing realistic loot (you only get what your opponent was wearing) has been replaced with loot tables as well.
Endless Ammo supply? You have got to be kidding....
Having to keep track of my Arrows and make sure I had enough was for me a pleasure, I enjoyed it, it added realism, immersion, and helped to remind me that I was roleplaying a character that could die and if I didn't do the simple stuff like check my arrow supply my character WOULD die.
Also having to actually AIM my shots in Skyrim was a blessed and refreshing change to TAB targeting for Archery in MMOs. I very much enjoy having to Aim.
I loved both the Elder Scrolls series and DAoC, for different reasons. I did enjoy both however no matter how crazy that sounds.
But I stopped enjoying DAoC once the revamp hit and they took Arrows away and made them "Magic". Bah Humbug. I understand they had to make some changes to make this RPG series into a MMORPG, but taking away the Individual Arrows/Bolts and replacing them with a "Magic Bolt" was not necessary AT ALL.
TESO is not a game I will be purchasing or playing at all. Thanks for the tip.
(I love Archers and Archery in MMOs, but if a MMO I play has magic arrows/ endless arrow supply then I don't play that class at all anymore... and I won't start a new MMO that has this fracked up magic arrow system either. I have already played enough MMOs with this crap and I won't spend my money on another one.)
Do attributes (strength, intelligence, dexterity, will power, etc) make a game NOT an MMO?
Do major and minor skills to build the character you want make a game NOT an MMO?
Speaking of skills, do class, race, weapon, guild specific skills make a game an MMO?
Does a game HAVE to have PvP to be an MMO?
Does a game HAVE to have a war going on to be an MMO?
Will having players level only by using their chosen skills make a game NOT an MMO? Must there be XP rewards?
Where is the playable Imperial race? Oh, right. 9 races is divisible by 3 factions better than 10.
I've had a few posts about this very topic. I cannot find the thread I started (I searched and failed) talking about specific single player Elder Scrolls Games features and how they would work in an MMORPG and showing how the Zenimax decisions are MMO first, Elder Scrolls second, the first and foremost: 3 faction PvP (DAoC style).
For me, the MMO-ization would be no Nerevarine or Dragonborn that saves the world. Instead of ONE player playing the game, you now have thousands, hopefully millions playing to take into account. No fiddling with lore, mechanics (well, maybe a little with mechanics), and especially features need to be done to make it an MMO.
[EDIT]
FINALLY found my post and thread found here
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
"But some worry that there won't be enough Elder Scrolls in the MMO."
Actually, I worry if there is enough MMO in this Elder Scroll. For playing a solo game, I won't pay a sub. If TESO does not deliver a sound MMORPG experience, it will loose much more subbers than with unsatisfied fanboys, I am sure.
I'll have to somewhat disagree with this one.
I think they are quest driven if you do the quests. A friend of mine played through morrowind and Oblivion and only did the few quests he found "out in the wild" so to speak. Didn't finish the main quest never did any of the guild quests.
Also, though I have found a few kill x quests in these games, they do seem to be about more than "killing x amount of things".
Last night in lotro, while doing those horrid hytbold dailies, I rescued 2 Rohirrim and killed 10 spiders. When I tried to engaged the Rohirrim in conversation not only did they not have any dialogue but they just vanished after a few seconds.
Yet, saving one of the grey manes was far more satisfying. Sure, the LOTRO quest is just a daily quest but many mmo's tend to have their quests a bit on the cheap.
I think ESO is sort of "doing right" in the case that you will find quests out in the world just like an Elder Scrolls game. But, in an elder scrolls game you can forgo the quests and still enjoy yourself. I wonder if the same can be true for this incarnation?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
MMOs have had a checked history when it comes to adherence to the lore that an IP represents. But never more so than with the modern MMO where lore is a secondary concern.
I am sure you can remember how in solo games the reason you were doing something in game used to get a lot of coverage in the pamphlet or even booklet you would get with the game. That's right I said a booklet. Today you will find it hard to find the lore and reason you are playing in the single sheet you get in your box or the online manual.
So this is not just confined to MMOs. But MMOs more than solo player have a tendency to distort the IP's world. MMOs demand a mechanics that does not fit every IP. Todays easyMMOde MMOs demand a rigid play style that has problems with any sort of complexity.
Does the IP have more than two factions? Would there be player races who are pacifists? Does the IP not have MMO staples like a tank class or not have ninjas with guns?
Over the years lore has been downgraded to an irrelevance, the only game out in the last five years that has bucked that trend is TSW to my knowledge. When you play you do not need an iota of game knowledge to play, the hand that guides your quests explains everything.
One test you can put the game to, has anything been announced that is not WoW template easymode? That's a test EQNext has failed so far. If that's what ESO is doing I would hazard it will be no different for the lore.
Pesonally i think there is so much Elder scrolls in the game that it may fail as an MMo, as an MMO has requirements much different from an online RPG..
You talk about spending almost 200 hours with Skyrim... 200 hours for an MMo means its only starting out..
I really hope that next to sattisfying the Elder scrolls crowd (to which the whole game is catered) they can add enough to make it interesting for the MMO crowd too..
If the OP is worries there is not enough elder scrolls in the game, he has been living under a big chunck of rock for the last year or so, i would have expected more from someone writing a coverpiece on this website. People like the writer of this pile of .. give people the wrong opinion about TESO.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I currently have 922 hours in skyrim.
Though most of that is with one character I do have an "alt" have have messed with a few other characters "here and there".
I suppose my point is that a compelling single player game that allows a player freedom to just entertain themselves can teach these mmo's a thing or two.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Other than names and places, can you cite what TES:O has in place that reminds you of Elder Scrolls games?
If this game was set in a totally new land with totally new lore, would you think, "Hey! This is just like the Elder Scrolls games!"?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
21 year MMO veteran
PvP Raid Leader
Lover of The Witcher & CD Projekt Red
Many people fail to realize that Elder Scrolls and MMO do not have to be mutually exclusive.
The task of ZOS is simple in my mind:
1. Make the game a REAL Elder Scrolls game; this while NOT making it feel like another generic MMO.
2. Make sure there's plenty of stuff to do once people reach level cap.
That's essentially what they need to do.
It was 150 hrs of questing to level 50. Not including dungeons, caves, exploration, crafting, PvP and so on. Also, after finishing your story, you will only have about 30% of your skills. So you need to continue to progress your character.
They have another 150 hrs for the ES PvE crowd after level 50. That is one of the other factions you can play through with level 50+ mobs. Then another 150 hours to play through the 3rd faction with 50++ mobs that will probably need a second player to help you.
I do agree though that it would have been fun to have a PvP type of server so you could go to other faction areas for open world PvP. But they went with the single server and shards idea, so not going to happen.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
So far they have said that PvP, Adventure zones, Master dungeons and the 50+ 50++ content will all get you the same type of gear. As well as earn you veteran points to be able to purchase gear. So you don't have to do just one type of end game content to get the best gear. You can play the way you want and still earn it.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
The REAL ES is going to be difficult because there will be many other players doing the same thing as you. All running around killing the same things running through the same story. An MMO is generic when you have the basic themepark setup. Now it will be a little different as far as being able to go anywhere in your faction area and take quests in any order at any time. And finding caves and hidden areas through exploration. But there will still be a level requirement for completing quests.
I like the look of the end game so far. They seem to have learned from the big mistake that SWTOR made. That is not allowing level cap players to continue to progress without jumping into the dungeon grind. In ES you can take your level capped character and go play another faction with mobs level 50+ and see all of the other factions quests and complete their story. Then do it a third time. As well as the adventure zone for 4 to 24 man groups, Master dungeons and the AvA. So a lot more options than many other MMOs because you can earn the same gear and skills by playing the way you want.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
It's a trendy 2012-13 opinion (look at the upcoming releases).
and why wouldnt we expect that when the Elder Scrolls games are some of the most successful SP sandboxes in history? If they made a Don't Starve MMO i would expect that to be a sandbox too.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins