Yes the mystery element does not need the social one, it can be fun trying to work things out as a group though. The problem was we went from being able to find hints online to full solutions within a few years. Now you can still maintain mystery but you have to be quite ambiguous in your plot to do so. AC realised this and plotted accordingly.
But mystery to one side, any sort of long term plot in MMOs has gone. You get your game, it is all there to see plain and simple, any new content comes in chunks which rarely even hint at anything beyond the latest chunk. I would point to TSW as the only exception since Lotro came out I can think of.
"it can be fun trying to work things out as a group though" ... not for me. I would much rather do any puzzle solo. Heck, some point & click adventure (like the Sherlock Holmes games) have a hint system built into the game. You can be as surprised or as spoiled as you want. Mystery is maintained if your story is good enough, and people actively avoid spoilers. I didn't go look at Dishonored's ending although it is on youtube when i play it.
Yes, long term plot is gone. So what? A story is about whether it is good, not whether it is long.
Yes the mystery element does not need the social one, it can be fun trying to work things out as a group though. The problem was we went from being able to find hints online to full solutions within a few years. Now you can still maintain mystery but you have to be quite ambiguous in your plot to do so. AC realised this and plotted accordingly.
But mystery to one side, any sort of long term plot in MMOs has gone. You get your game, it is all there to see plain and simple, any new content comes in chunks which rarely even hint at anything beyond the latest chunk. I would point to TSW as the only exception since Lotro came out I can think of.
"it can be fun trying to work things out as a group though" ... not for me. I would much rather do any puzzle solo. Heck, some point & click adventure (like the Sherlock Holmes games) have a hint system built into the game. You can be as surprised or as spoiled as you want. Mystery is maintained if your story is good enough, and people actively avoid spoilers. I didn't go look at Dishonored's ending although it is on youtube when i play it.
Yes, long term plot is gone. So what? A story is about whether it is good, not whether it is long.
It is the difference between a long term plot like in TV's Flash Forward and the episodic CSI. Both have puzzles but it is the ability of the creators to develop a plot over the long term that makes it more fascinating.
It is hard in solo games to do long term plots, the SH games for example could have had a grand long term plot, but that would assume players had brought all the series. However you can do them in MMOs and they are as worthy of being in the gaming genre as they are any other.
Yes the mystery element does not need the social one, it can be fun trying to work things out as a group though. The problem was we went from being able to find hints online to full solutions within a few years. Now you can still maintain mystery but you have to be quite ambiguous in your plot to do so. AC realised this and plotted accordingly.
But mystery to one side, any sort of long term plot in MMOs has gone. You get your game, it is all there to see plain and simple, any new content comes in chunks which rarely even hint at anything beyond the latest chunk. I would point to TSW as the only exception since Lotro came out I can think of.
"it can be fun trying to work things out as a group though" ... not for me. I would much rather do any puzzle solo. Heck, some point & click adventure (like the Sherlock Holmes games) have a hint system built into the game. You can be as surprised or as spoiled as you want. Mystery is maintained if your story is good enough, and people actively avoid spoilers. I didn't go look at Dishonored's ending although it is on youtube when i play it.
Yes, long term plot is gone. So what? A story is about whether it is good, not whether it is long.
It is the difference between a long term plot like in TV's Flash Forward and the episodic CSI. Both have puzzles but it is the ability of the creators to develop a plot over the long term that makes it more fascinating.
It is hard in solo games to do long term plots, the SH games for example could have had a grand long term plot, but that would assume players had brought all the series. However you can do them in MMOs and they are as worthy of being in the gaming genre as they are any other.
TV's "long term" plot is artificial because of airing dates. Look at Game of Thrones. You will say it is "long term" plot over multiple years. I would say, just buy the books, and it is short term weekend plot.
Ditto for 24. I watched the first few seasons on video all at once. Sure, it is not as short as a book, but it is only a few days.
It is about how good the plot is, not how long it is. Games as it stands, is already quite long compared to other entertainment.
A 80 hours game (like Mass effect) is already longer than Game of Thrones if you read the novels, or equivalent to 4 seasons of 24 in terms of story content.
I think it really depends on your experiences to be honest. I found AC1 to be a very lonely game. It was extremely rare for me to socialize with anyone in it. On the other hand EQ1 is probably the most social game I've ever played. UO was quite social too but mostly because there was so little to the game and it had the PvP.
TV's "long term" plot is artificial because of airing dates. Look at Game of Thrones. You will say it is "long term" plot over multiple years. I would say, just buy the books, and it is short term weekend plot.
If you are able to read the whole "A song of fire and ice" books in a single week end, then you have some kind of "time travel" secret, because it's simply impossible, even by staying awake from Friday midnight to Sunday midnight, and bypassing toilet, food, hygiene just to read, read and read more.
There are definitely "week end plot" books out there, but the George R.R. Martin series is definitely not part of them. Very bad example.
If you are able to read the whole "A song of fire and ice" books in a single week end, then you have some kind of "time travel" secret, because it's simply impossible, even by staying awake from Friday midnight to Sunday midnight
Or he is just a fast reader. It would take me a full weekend to read the books but my wife could probably read them all in a single day if it were important. None of that was really central to his point though.
If you are able to read the whole "A song of fire and ice" books in a single week end, then you have some kind of "time travel" secret, because it's simply impossible, even by staying awake from Friday midnight to Sunday midnight
Or he is just a fast reader. It would take me a full weekend to read the books but my wife could probably read them all in a single day if it were important. None of that was really central to his point though.
I'm a fast reader, and I know it's simply impossible (or you skip 75% of the books). We are talking about 5000+ pages to read here.
His example just doesn't make any sense. There's a reason why the GoT series spans over many years... because the books are so full of material it's impossible to "compress" them into one or two seasons without completely destroying the original work.
Hell, even reading Lord of the Rings is impossible in one week end without skipping at least half of the books.
And no, your wife will NOT read the 5 volumes of "A Song of Fire and Ice" in one day. Not unless she only reads 10% of the books and skips the rest.
If you are able to read the whole "A song of fire and ice" books in a single week end, then you have some kind of "time travel" secret, because it's simply impossible, even by staying awake from Friday midnight to Sunday midnight
Or he is just a fast reader. It would take me a full weekend to read the books but my wife could probably read them all in a single day if it were important. None of that was really central to his point though.
And does it matter if it is 2 weekends instead of one? Or even two weeks.
The same point applies. You don't need years to get through all the GoT stories.
And no, your wife will NOT read the 5 volumes of "A Song of Fire and Ice" in one day. Not unless she only reads 10% of the books and skips the rest.
My wife reads over 1500 words a minute and yes she can read complete series in day and comprehend it. Her entire job is based around reading media articles and writing press releases. But again none of this is important to his point. You attacked some minute detail that doesn't change a thing he said.
It only took me about 5 hours to read each book in GoT (well the first 3, then I was a bit bored of the series since they kept killing off the people I was rooting for) same for lotro. And no I didn't skip anything.
As far as the TV show goes they only have what 6 shows a year? The reason (or one of them) is becaues it takes so much time to film them and no producer would want to take 5 years to film them before seeing any revenue. They get way more money by spacing them out.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
It only took me about 5 hours to read each book in GoT (well the first 3, then I was a bit bored of the series since they kept killing off the people I was rooting for) same for lotro. And no I didn't skip anything.
As far as the TV show goes they only have what 6 shows a year? The reason (or one of them) is becaues it takes so much time to film them and no producer would want to take 5 years to film them before seeing any revenue. They get way more money by spacing them out.
Actually 10 episodes a year. So far, GoT has 3 seasons, a total of roughly 30 hours of entertainment.
I watch the first 1.5 seasons back-to-back (because i didn't get into it until middle of season 2, and that took me less than a week.
There is no need for "long term" anything. Right now the whole 30 hours of GoT entertainment is roughly on par with the amount of time to finish ONE SP game, may be 2 if the game is short.
Yes the mystery element does not need the social one, it can be fun trying to work things out as a group though. The problem was we went from being able to find hints online to full solutions within a few years. Now you can still maintain mystery but you have to be quite ambiguous in your plot to do so. AC realised this and plotted accordingly.
But mystery to one side, any sort of long term plot in MMOs has gone. You get your game, it is all there to see plain and simple, any new content comes in chunks which rarely even hint at anything beyond the latest chunk. I would point to TSW as the only exception since Lotro came out I can think of.
"it can be fun trying to work things out as a group though" ... not for me. I would much rather do any puzzle solo. Heck, some point & click adventure (like the Sherlock Holmes games) have a hint system built into the game. You can be as surprised or as spoiled as you want. Mystery is maintained if your story is good enough, and people actively avoid spoilers. I didn't go look at Dishonored's ending although it is on youtube when i play it.
Yes, long term plot is gone. So what? A story is about whether it is good, not whether it is long.
It is the difference between a long term plot like in TV's Flash Forward and the episodic CSI. Both have puzzles but it is the ability of the creators to develop a plot over the long term that makes it more fascinating.
It is hard in solo games to do long term plots, the SH games for example could have had a grand long term plot, but that would assume players had brought all the series. However you can do them in MMOs and they are as worthy of being in the gaming genre as they are any other.
TV's "long term" plot is artificial because of airing dates. Look at Game of Thrones. You will say it is "long term" plot over multiple years. I would say, just buy the books, and it is short term weekend plot.
Ditto for 24. I watched the first few seasons on video all at once. Sure, it is not as short as a book, but it is only a few days.
It is about how good the plot is, not how long it is. Games as it stands, is already quite long compared to other entertainment.
A 80 hours game (like Mass effect) is already longer than Game of Thrones if you read the novels, or equivalent to 4 seasons of 24 in terms of story content.
You are totally missing the point. If you have enough to do in a MMO from day to day including the revelation of quests and what is going on in the world why on earth would you want to try and compress a metaplot into a week as well? The idea is that there is already enough to do. You have more than enough gameplay to be getting on with, the meta plot is just something extra which unfolds over time.
As I am sure you are aware you cannot speed up your gameplay in the same way you can speed up reading some books, you can't play faster. And why would you want to even if that was possible? You have argued many times before about MMO's not being your only form of entertainment, you could give them up and so on. Why would you want to even try to fill your week with 40 hours on a MMO just to squeeze it all in?
You dislike anything in a MMO which would require you to stay with it long term, that's where I think you are coming from here.
As I am sure you are aware you cannot speed up your gameplay in the same way you can speed up reading some books, you can't play faster. And why would you want to even if that was possible? You have argued many times before about MMO's not being your only form of entertainment, you could give them up and so on. Why would you want to even try to fill your week with 40 hours on a MMO just to squeeze it all in?
Of course you can.
In today's MMO, there are so much grind and filler quests that it is quite easy to compress the gameplay.
Do you really miss any stories if you cut out half of wow's "kill x mob" type quests? Take Marvel Heroes as another example. You can maintain the SAME story content even if you cut some of the levels by half.
Who says i want to fill my week with 40 hours on a MMO? I am just making a point you don't need years of play time to have good story plots.
As I am sure you are aware you cannot speed up your gameplay in the same way you can speed up reading some books, you can't play faster. And why would you want to even if that was possible? You have argued many times before about MMO's not being your only form of entertainment, you could give them up and so on. Why would you want to even try to fill your week with 40 hours on a MMO just to squeeze it all in?
Of course you can.
In today's MMO, there are so much grind and filler quests that it is quite easy to compress the gameplay.
Do you really miss any stories if you cut out half of wow's "kill x mob" type quests? Take Marvel Heroes as another example. You can maintain the SAME story content even if you cut some of the levels by half.
Who says i want to fill my week with 40 hours on a MMO? I am just making a point you don't need years of play time to have good story plots.
You do miss story if you don't read what quest givers say and in the case of GW2 you have to track down the relevant NPC to ask them questions. As a developer you can tell a story with less gameplay, but I was getting at the fact players can't play faster to get through the story quicker. I said nothing to indicate that you need years of play time to give players a good story.
As I said metaplot is a cherry on the top, something extra beyond the short stories already being told. Keep your greedy content locust mandibles off it and let it unfold.
Oh and Marvel Heroes is not a MMO, not sure what it should be called, but a MMORPG it is not.
You do miss story if you don't read what quest givers say and in the case of GW2 you have to track down the relevant NPC to ask them questions. As a developer you can tell a story with less gameplay, but I was getting at the fact players can't play faster to get through the story quicker. I said nothing to indicate that you need years of play time to give players a good story.
As I said metaplot is a cherry on the top, something extra beyond the short stories already being told. Keep your greedy content locust mandibles off it and let it unfold.
Oh and Marvel Heroes is not a MMO, not sure what it should be called, but a MMORPG it is not.
actually text is a dirt poor way of telling a story. SP games are doing stories much better with scripting events and stuff. Some MMOs have some of that (like STO) but they need more if they want to tell good stories.
MH not a MMO? That is not the common usage. It is commonly referred to as a MMO. I will call it as such. I am more than happy to call it something else if you can make a new term stick with the industry. MMO is just label. Let me know when you succeed, and i will switch to the new term.
You do miss story if you don't read what quest givers say and in the case of GW2 you have to track down the relevant NPC to ask them questions. As a developer you can tell a story with less gameplay, but I was getting at the fact players can't play faster to get through the story quicker. I said nothing to indicate that you need years of play time to give players a good story.
As I said metaplot is a cherry on the top, something extra beyond the short stories already being told. Keep your greedy content locust mandibles off it and let it unfold.
Oh and Marvel Heroes is not a MMO, not sure what it should be called, but a MMORPG it is not.
actually text is a dirt poor way of telling a story. SP games are doing stories much better with scripting events and stuff. Some MMOs have some of that (like STO) but they need more if they want to tell good stories.
MH not a MMO? That is not the common usage. It is commonly referred to as a MMO. I will call it as such. I am more than happy to call it something else if you can make a new term stick with the industry. MMO is just label. Let me know when you succeed, and i will switch to the new term.
I am all for telling stories in new ways, but over the years what we have nearly always seen has involved less story not more. When it comes to scripted events the story can be cut down to the bare bones. Such events stick with the action, the don't go into why you are doing what you are doing. Now they don't have to be like that, but most are, Rift and GW2 are a case in point. Text is a grand way of telling a story and you get much more depth than these events offer.
If I was looking to do events better I would add something like a voice over or have npc's talk. SE's do not communicate much with the player, so little story is told, but there are ways they could be much better.
I am all for telling stories in new ways, but over the years what we have nearly always seen has involved less story not more. When it comes to scripted events the story can be cut down to the bare bones. Such events stick with the action, the don't go into why you are doing what you are doing. Now they don't have to be like that, but most are, Rift and GW2 are a case in point. Text is a grand way of telling a story and you get much more depth than these events offer.
SP games already are doing story telling well. MMOs just have to learn from them. It is not that hard to put cut-scenes, scripted events, VO, and whatever SP games are using in an instance ... because SP games are essentially instances anyway.
In fact, it is a matter of costs. If you look at WoW, there are *some* instanced story telling (not a grand story, just one within a single quest with limited content) that does almost as well as some SP games, including the use of cut-scenes. So it is certainly possible. They just need to do it more, if they are serious about stories.
No, I can honestly say I have absolutely zero interest in that whatsoever.
Now playing none, hope none? Get on your bike and find some optimism.
Well, I laughed. Thank you for that
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I'd find an MMO you enjoy first from a gameplay perspective, whether that's lore or how a class/skillset works. If your going in solo it won't happen overnight, need to give it time and give yourself a chance to enjoy the game in the first place.
Community is what makes a MMO great but it's not really the reason you should play in the first place..
No, I can honestly say I have absolutely zero interest in that whatsoever.
Now playing none, hope none? Get on your bike and find some optimism.
Or just find other hobbies, there are very many.
Which kinda goes without saying...
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Comments
"it can be fun trying to work things out as a group though" ... not for me. I would much rather do any puzzle solo. Heck, some point & click adventure (like the Sherlock Holmes games) have a hint system built into the game. You can be as surprised or as spoiled as you want. Mystery is maintained if your story is good enough, and people actively avoid spoilers. I didn't go look at Dishonored's ending although it is on youtube when i play it.
Yes, long term plot is gone. So what? A story is about whether it is good, not whether it is long.
It is the difference between a long term plot like in TV's Flash Forward and the episodic CSI. Both have puzzles but it is the ability of the creators to develop a plot over the long term that makes it more fascinating.
It is hard in solo games to do long term plots, the SH games for example could have had a grand long term plot, but that would assume players had brought all the series. However you can do them in MMOs and they are as worthy of being in the gaming genre as they are any other.
TV's "long term" plot is artificial because of airing dates. Look at Game of Thrones. You will say it is "long term" plot over multiple years. I would say, just buy the books, and it is short term weekend plot.
Ditto for 24. I watched the first few seasons on video all at once. Sure, it is not as short as a book, but it is only a few days.
It is about how good the plot is, not how long it is. Games as it stands, is already quite long compared to other entertainment.
A 80 hours game (like Mass effect) is already longer than Game of Thrones if you read the novels, or equivalent to 4 seasons of 24 in terms of story content.
I think it really depends on your experiences to be honest. I found AC1 to be a very lonely game. It was extremely rare for me to socialize with anyone in it. On the other hand EQ1 is probably the most social game I've ever played. UO was quite social too but mostly because there was so little to the game and it had the PvP.
If you are able to read the whole "A song of fire and ice" books in a single week end, then you have some kind of "time travel" secret, because it's simply impossible, even by staying awake from Friday midnight to Sunday midnight, and bypassing toilet, food, hygiene just to read, read and read more.
There are definitely "week end plot" books out there, but the George R.R. Martin series is definitely not part of them. Very bad example.
My computer is better than yours.
Or he is just a fast reader. It would take me a full weekend to read the books but my wife could probably read them all in a single day if it were important. None of that was really central to his point though.
I'm a fast reader, and I know it's simply impossible (or you skip 75% of the books). We are talking about 5000+ pages to read here.
His example just doesn't make any sense. There's a reason why the GoT series spans over many years... because the books are so full of material it's impossible to "compress" them into one or two seasons without completely destroying the original work.
Hell, even reading Lord of the Rings is impossible in one week end without skipping at least half of the books.
And no, your wife will NOT read the 5 volumes of "A Song of Fire and Ice" in one day. Not unless she only reads 10% of the books and skips the rest.
My computer is better than yours.
And does it matter if it is 2 weekends instead of one? Or even two weeks.
The same point applies. You don't need years to get through all the GoT stories.
My wife reads over 1500 words a minute and yes she can read complete series in day and comprehend it. Her entire job is based around reading media articles and writing press releases. But again none of this is important to his point. You attacked some minute detail that doesn't change a thing he said.
It only took me about 5 hours to read each book in GoT (well the first 3, then I was a bit bored of the series since they kept killing off the people I was rooting for) same for lotro. And no I didn't skip anything.
As far as the TV show goes they only have what 6 shows a year? The reason (or one of them) is becaues it takes so much time to film them and no producer would want to take 5 years to film them before seeing any revenue. They get way more money by spacing them out.
Actually 10 episodes a year. So far, GoT has 3 seasons, a total of roughly 30 hours of entertainment.
I watch the first 1.5 seasons back-to-back (because i didn't get into it until middle of season 2, and that took me less than a week.
There is no need for "long term" anything. Right now the whole 30 hours of GoT entertainment is roughly on par with the amount of time to finish ONE SP game, may be 2 if the game is short.
You are totally missing the point. If you have enough to do in a MMO from day to day including the revelation of quests and what is going on in the world why on earth would you want to try and compress a metaplot into a week as well? The idea is that there is already enough to do. You have more than enough gameplay to be getting on with, the meta plot is just something extra which unfolds over time.
As I am sure you are aware you cannot speed up your gameplay in the same way you can speed up reading some books, you can't play faster. And why would you want to even if that was possible? You have argued many times before about MMO's not being your only form of entertainment, you could give them up and so on. Why would you want to even try to fill your week with 40 hours on a MMO just to squeeze it all in?
You dislike anything in a MMO which would require you to stay with it long term, that's where I think you are coming from here.
Of course you can.
In today's MMO, there are so much grind and filler quests that it is quite easy to compress the gameplay.
Do you really miss any stories if you cut out half of wow's "kill x mob" type quests? Take Marvel Heroes as another example. You can maintain the SAME story content even if you cut some of the levels by half.
Who says i want to fill my week with 40 hours on a MMO? I am just making a point you don't need years of play time to have good story plots.
You do miss story if you don't read what quest givers say and in the case of GW2 you have to track down the relevant NPC to ask them questions. As a developer you can tell a story with less gameplay, but I was getting at the fact players can't play faster to get through the story quicker. I said nothing to indicate that you need years of play time to give players a good story.
As I said metaplot is a cherry on the top, something extra beyond the short stories already being told. Keep your greedy content locust mandibles off it and let it unfold.
Oh and Marvel Heroes is not a MMO, not sure what it should be called, but a MMORPG it is not.
actually text is a dirt poor way of telling a story. SP games are doing stories much better with scripting events and stuff. Some MMOs have some of that (like STO) but they need more if they want to tell good stories.
MH not a MMO? That is not the common usage. It is commonly referred to as a MMO. I will call it as such. I am more than happy to call it something else if you can make a new term stick with the industry. MMO is just label. Let me know when you succeed, and i will switch to the new term.
I am all for telling stories in new ways, but over the years what we have nearly always seen has involved less story not more. When it comes to scripted events the story can be cut down to the bare bones. Such events stick with the action, the don't go into why you are doing what you are doing. Now they don't have to be like that, but most are, Rift and GW2 are a case in point. Text is a grand way of telling a story and you get much more depth than these events offer.
If I was looking to do events better I would add something like a voice over or have npc's talk. SE's do not communicate much with the player, so little story is told, but there are ways they could be much better.
SP games already are doing story telling well. MMOs just have to learn from them. It is not that hard to put cut-scenes, scripted events, VO, and whatever SP games are using in an instance ... because SP games are essentially instances anyway.
In fact, it is a matter of costs. If you look at WoW, there are *some* instanced story telling (not a grand story, just one within a single quest with limited content) that does almost as well as some SP games, including the use of cut-scenes. So it is certainly possible. They just need to do it more, if they are serious about stories.
No, I can honestly say I have absolutely zero interest in that whatsoever.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Now playing none, hope none? Get on your bike and find some optimism.
Or just find other hobbies, there are very many.
Well, I laughed. Thank you for that
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I'd find an MMO you enjoy first from a gameplay perspective, whether that's lore or how a class/skillset works. If your going in solo it won't happen overnight, need to give it time and give yourself a chance to enjoy the game in the first place.
Community is what makes a MMO great but it's not really the reason you should play in the first place..
This looks like a job for....The Riviera Kid!
Which kinda goes without saying...
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb