Originally posted by Yamota Originally posted by VengeSunsoarOriginally posted by YamotaF2P is a sham. It is a way for corporations to suck out money from weakminded people who sink more and more money into a video game. Granted not all, I would say even most, F2P players are like that, but they are who are keeping F2P games up.
Funny, You can say this exact same phrase almost word for word and be talking about p2p.Nope. In a traditional P2P, not the one's which have a cash shop and thus double dipping, you pay a small fixed amount per month and every couple of years you pay a fixed amount for an expansion. So there is no way for them to charge you more than that, which you have in so called F2P games which are often built up in a way to nickle and dime you if you want this or that item/bonus etc.
Sure not everyone needs to pay, and thus get a less than ideal experience, but the fact that they are projecting a 2.5 billion revenue shows that a lot of people are.
Cash shops for additional features have existed nearly as long as the games and subscription services themselves. The thing with F2P games is the same thing with P2P games. It all depends on the implementation. You can have a good F2P implementation and a bad F2P implementation. Ditto for P2P. You can have a good P2P implementation and a bad one. Good games and bad games. And so on.
The biggest difference between P2P and F2P is that there is actually some variation. People have a chance to see what games are bad and what games have bad implementations without spending any money. This is not true with P2P games. In order to find out if a game is bad, or good, but not for the player is by spending the money in the first place.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Those are MMO's, just not mmoRPG.
So?
LoL is listed in the game list on this site, isn't it?
This has been explained to you countless times. This site is a business, and they want as many people coming here as possible, so they do cover non-genre titles that people who play MMORPGs might have an interest in. A lot of MMOs are being targeted at MMORPG players (shocker, I know), sometimes going so far as to even market them as MMORPGs. This also has to do with business and cashing on the MMORPG crowd. For whatever reason, you seem to be really thrown off by all of this.
Say a random literary internet site starts classifying Sherlock Holmes novels as Erotica, this doesn't change the fact that they are Mystery novels. This is some pretty basic stuff, man.
It's the internet, lol, don't be so easily confused.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
F2P is a sham. It is a way for corporations to suck out money from weakminded people who sink more and more money into a video game. Granted not all, I would say even most, F2P players are like that, but they are who are keeping F2P games up.
Funny, You can say this exact same phrase almost word for word and be talking about p2p.
Nope. In a traditional P2P, not the one's which have a cash shop and thus double dipping, you pay a small fixed amount per month and every couple of years you pay a fixed amount for an expansion. So there is no way for them to charge you more than that, which you have in so called F2P games which are often built up in a way to nickle and dime you if you want this or that item/bonus etc.
Sure not everyone needs to pay, and thus get a less than ideal experience, but the fact that they are projecting a 2.5 billion revenue shows that a lot of people are.
Sure we can. Watch.
P2P is a sham. It is a way for corporations to suck out money from weakminded people who sink more and more time into a game through addictive mechanisms. Granted, not all, I would say even most, p2p players are like that but they the ones who keep the p2p model up.
See virtually the exact same thing talking about p2p.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
F2P is a sham. It is a way for corporations to suck out money from weakminded people who sink more and more money into a video game. Granted not all, I would say even most, F2P players are like that, but they are who are keeping F2P games up.
Funny, You can say this exact same phrase almost word for word and be talking about p2p.
Nope. In a traditional P2P, not the one's which have a cash shop and thus double dipping, you pay a small fixed amount per month and every couple of years you pay a fixed amount for an expansion. So there is no way for them to charge you more than that, which you have in so called F2P games which are often built up in a way to nickle and dime you if you want this or that item/bonus etc.
Sure not everyone needs to pay, and thus get a less than ideal experience, but the fact that they are projecting a 2.5 billion revenue shows that a lot of people are.
If you're buying the ex pack what are you paying for all that time with the sub ? ...other than the whole weak minded...sinking money into a game ect ect thing
That's why the exact same phrase can be used word for word for both pay types. A sub + paying for content is still double dipping. they've just been doing it so long people make better excuses for it.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Those are MMO's, just not mmoRPG.
So?
LoL is listed in the game list on this site, isn't it?
This has been explained to you countless times. This site is a business, and they want as many people coming here as possible, so they do cover non-genre titles that people who play MMORPGs might have an interest in. A lot of MMOs are being targeted at MMORPG players (shocker, I know), sometimes going so far as to even market them as MMORPGs. This also has to do with business and cashing on the MMORPG crowd. For whatever reason, you seem to be really thrown off by all of this.
Say a random literary internet site starts classifying Sherlock Holmes novels as Erotica, this doesn't change the fact that they are Mystery novels. This is some pretty basic stuff, man.
It's the internet, lol, don't be so easily confused.
I wasn't even commenting on the fact that they were mentioned in the article, just someone else saying that they weren't MMORPG. I"m just stating they don't need to be MMORPG, the industy does consider them MMO's.
Party size, IMO is irrelevant, as in any game I can really only group up with 6-10 anyway, it's the number of people I can interact with and then form the group that determines if it's an MMO and Lol fits that criteria.
Now we get to define interaction... yay.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
"it’s clear that Sony has no intention of slowing down, setting its sights on claiming a piece of the free-to-play MMO market. Our early estimates for the US market put the total spending for 2013E at $2.5 billion, growing 57% year-over-year."
"said John Smedley: There is no purer way to see whether you have a good game or not than by saying 'this is free, do you want to play it?'"
Thanks for posting more garbage from that site which has been shown time and again here, through debate, that it's data are at best misleading and at worst categorically false. Though I've no interest in rekindling that debate here. Any interested parties can search the forums.
I laughed out loud....
MMORPG.com is that magical place on the internet where if you don't want it to be true, then it simply isn't true. The Backfire Effect not only lives here, it breeds and thrives.
Wow thanks for that link. It applies to just about every thread we have on the tired old topics of f2p, pvp, SWTOR...ect ect....in fact I can think of very few threads this doesn't apply to here. I'm pretty sure there's nothing magical about this place though :P
Translation from Smedish 'Entrance fee to our bazaar is zero, do you want to come in and check price tags on goods?'
OFC f2p is more profitable, same as junkfood franchise is more profitable than decent restaurant. But decent restaurants exist near mcdonald's and we have a choice, while in MMO industry games for more exacting players are nearly extinct. f2p is ok, extruding p2p model is not. I think, when market will settle, we'll have less wanna-be-wow and more various products for different niches, even small ones. Too bad, I'll be old by that time.
F2P is a sham. It is a way for corporations to suck out money from weakminded people who sink more and more money into a video game. Granted not all, I would say even most, F2P players are like that, but they are who are keeping F2P games up.
Funny, You can say this exact same phrase almost word for word and be talking about p2p.
Nope. In a traditional P2P, not the one's which have a cash shop and thus double dipping, you pay a small fixed amount per month and every couple of years you pay a fixed amount for an expansion. So there is no way for them to charge you more than that, which you have in so called F2P games which are often built up in a way to nickle and dime you if you want this or that item/bonus etc.
Sure not everyone needs to pay, and thus get a less than ideal experience, but the fact that they are projecting a 2.5 billion revenue shows that a lot of people are.
There are several problems with that argument. The first being the P2P with no additional services/items offered for a fee - do many of those exist? Do ANY of those exist? The second being that you have rationalized an expansion to somehow be different from any other microtransaction when it is not just the same but ticks every box that the people here check when railing against cash shops:
- using your fifteen bucks to make stuff to sell back to you, thus diverting those devs and resources away from regular content development
- paying for an advantage
- not getting all the content for your monthly fee
Is your issue the charge or the change? It seems very much like the latter.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
MOBAs make up the bulk of that push. MMORPGs are not part of that major push. F2P and MMORPGs are not mixing nearly as well as other types of games. I think part of that is the players themselves pushing back against the idea. Humans are pretty risk averse. It doesn't take too many games, whether they are on phones or on the PCs where the developer tries to coerce the player into spending more money to continue playing before the MMORPG player just does not like F2P in general. I think that's why Wildstar and ESO are going with subscriptions. The MMO market is moving towards F2P, because in general it's possible to make more money, in the MMORPG market is not sold on the idea, except as a follow up to an initial subscription attempt.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Since 80% or more of that so called F2P MMO revenue is likely in Asia, who cares?
More crap statistics that mean nothing. No break down on markets, which type of games, revenue models, none of that.
Where did you get the 80% from. What makes your stat not a crap statistic that means nothing ?
If you look at all the games in the games list here that are F2P you can get a 'general' sort of idea of where most of them are from, i wouldnt like to guess the exact percentage, but it does look like most of them are from a 'certain area' certainly they more than outnumber the P2P MMO's by a fairly significant percentage, perhaps the reason why ESO and Wildstar will be P2P games is because when you look at the 'wealth distribution' there is more money involved in P2P than F2P on a per game basis, its just that the F2P market looks much bigger because there are just so many of them - regardless of origin of the games.
MOBAs make up the bulk of that push. MMORPGs are not part of that major push. F2P and MMORPGs are not mixing nearly as well as other types of games. I think part of that is the players themselves pushing back against the idea. Humans are pretty risk averse. It doesn't take too many games, whether they are on phones or on the PCs where the developer tries to coerce the player into spending more money to continue playing before the MMORPG player just does not like F2P in general. I think that's why Wildstar and ESO are going with subscriptions. The MMO market is moving towards F2P, because in general it's possible to make more money, in the MMORPG market is not sold on the idea, except as a follow up to an initial subscription attempt.
Sure.
The future of the MMO market may not be MMORPG anyway. MOBA is big now. WoT type instanced games are big now. Devs are trying new stuff like Destiny.
Ah yes. We once again hear how "great" f2p is and how much money they are GOING to make. But wait. If they were truly FREE how is it that they make money? Answer, they are far from free. Either someone is spending their money so that all the freeloader can play for free OR the game is losing money. In fact, the games that are f2p could be losing money because we only hear about how many PLAYERS have signed up and rarely how much money THEY SPEND. F2p is a scam. Those that want to avoid paying and be able to freeload don't wish to admit to this. The companies pushing this fraud don't want to tell the truth about it. And the game "fanbois" don't want to see their pride and joy spoken badly about. I think it is about time we take a good hard look at what the truth about so-called f2p really is....it is a ding joint.
You won't know unless you subscribe to the SuperData Research reports. If you don't pay this company to access their data, you could be losing out on 100's of millions of $ worth of revenue !
Seems like the only party who are guaranteed to make money out of this apparent "F2P Boom" is SuperData Research...
Ah yes. We once again hear how "great" f2p is and how much money they are GOING to make. But wait. If they were truly FREE how is it that they make money?
You won't know unless you subscribe to the SuperData Research reports. If you don't pay this company to access their data, you could be losing out on 100's of millions of $ worth of revenue !
Seems like the only party who are guaranteed to make money out of this apparent "F2P Boom" is SuperData Research...
Exactly right.
(And btw, where are S Korea, Taiwan, China, Japan, and even Russia? Those places are where the F2P players mostly come from.)
Ah yes. We once again hear how "great" f2p is and how much money they are GOING to make. But wait. If they were truly FREE how is it that they make money? Answer, they are far from free
I don't remember the last time anyone was actually confused by how free to play worked so... I'm sorry you still are ?
If you're really trying to make this silly argument why don't you just go bump a 2 year old thread or something. At least it wont be so pout of place.
You won't know unless you subscribe to the SuperData Research reports. If you don't pay this company to access their data, you could be losing out on 100's of millions of $ worth of revenue !
Seems like the only party who are guaranteed to make money out of this apparent "F2P Boom" is SuperData Research...
Considering companies have been buying the data for a couple years now - companies that have other data to check it against - then maybe there's some validity to the numbers and how they arrived at them. Honestly, even if the anti-F2P people here had the money to burn(and for all I know, some of you do), I'd suggest you never buy their reports. That much supported fact contradicting so many of your adamant beliefs would certain be hazardous to your health.
I mean, seriously... dismissing the data because you're not going to be suckered in by this snake oil like those clowns at Deloitt, Microsoft, Google, MorganStanley, PayPal, Casual Connect... because they don't know nearly as much about the industry as you do, right?
It just gets really silly sometimes.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You won't know unless you subscribe to the SuperData Research reports. If you don't pay this company to access their data, you could be losing out on 100's of millions of $ worth of revenue !
Seems like the only party who are guaranteed to make money out of this apparent "F2P Boom" is SuperData Research...
Exactly right.
(And btw, where are S Korea, Taiwan, China, Japan, and even Russia? Those places are where the F2P players mostly come from.)
I'm not saying their data is correct or not but it's showing what the avg spent per month is. $31/month is higher than $15/month ( what subs are )....so if the real f2p players are in the missing markets what does that say about the argument you're trying to make here ?
You won't know unless you subscribe to the SuperData Research reports. If you don't pay this company to access their data, you could be losing out on 100's of millions of $ worth of revenue !
Seems like the only party who are guaranteed to make money out of this apparent "F2P Boom" is SuperData Research...
Exactly right.
(And btw, where are S Korea, Taiwan, China, Japan, and even Russia? Those places are where the F2P players mostly come from.)
I'm not saying their data is correct or not but it's showing what the avg spent per month is. $31/month is higher than $15/month ( what subs are )....so if the real f2p players are in the missing markets what does that say about the argument you're trying to make here ?
At that point, we're talking some crazy money then.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Considering companies have been buying the data for a couple years now - companies that have other data to check it against - then maybe there's some validity to the numbers and how they arrived at them. Honestly, even if the anti-F2P people here had the money to burn(and for all I know, some of you do), I'd suggest you never buy their reports. That much supported fact contradicting so many of your adamant beliefs would certain be hazardous to your health.
I mean, seriously... dismissing the data because you're not going to be suckered in by this snake oil like those clowns at Deloitt, Microsoft, Google, MorganStanley, PayPal, Casual Connect... because they don't know nearly as much about the industry as you do, right?
It just gets really silly sometimes.
*chuckles*
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Originally posted by Burntvet Originally posted by SpottyGekkoOriginally posted by NadiaOriginally posted by BurntvetSince 80% or more of that so called F2P MMO revenue is likely in Asia, who cares?
from Ops source sitehttp://www.superdataresearch.com/market-data/online-games-research/And what does all that prove exactly ?You won't know unless you subscribe to the SuperData Research reports. If you don't pay this company to access their data, you could be losing out on 100's of millions of $ worth of revenue ! Seems like the only party who are guaranteed to make money out of this apparent "F2P Boom" is SuperData Research...Exactly right.
(And btw, where are S Korea, Taiwan, China, Japan, and even Russia? Those places are where the F2P players mostly come from.)
F2P is growing in the West, mostly in the U.S. It's probably reached a market saturation point in Asia, so not much point in showing people, especially western developers, those numbers.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Comments
Nope. In a traditional P2P, not the one's which have a cash shop and thus double dipping, you pay a small fixed amount per month and every couple of years you pay a fixed amount for an expansion. So there is no way for them to charge you more than that, which you have in so called F2P games which are often built up in a way to nickle and dime you if you want this or that item/bonus etc.
Sure not everyone needs to pay, and thus get a less than ideal experience, but the fact that they are projecting a 2.5 billion revenue shows that a lot of people are.
Cash shops for additional features have existed nearly as long as the games and subscription services themselves. The thing with F2P games is the same thing with P2P games. It all depends on the implementation. You can have a good F2P implementation and a bad F2P implementation. Ditto for P2P. You can have a good P2P implementation and a bad one. Good games and bad games. And so on.
The biggest difference between P2P and F2P is that there is actually some variation. People have a chance to see what games are bad and what games have bad implementations without spending any money. This is not true with P2P games. In order to find out if a game is bad, or good, but not for the player is by spending the money in the first place.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
This has been explained to you countless times. This site is a business, and they want as many people coming here as possible, so they do cover non-genre titles that people who play MMORPGs might have an interest in. A lot of MMOs are being targeted at MMORPG players (shocker, I know), sometimes going so far as to even market them as MMORPGs. This also has to do with business and cashing on the MMORPG crowd. For whatever reason, you seem to be really thrown off by all of this.
Say a random literary internet site starts classifying Sherlock Holmes novels as Erotica, this doesn't change the fact that they are Mystery novels. This is some pretty basic stuff, man.
It's the internet, lol, don't be so easily confused.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Sure we can. Watch.
P2P is a sham. It is a way for corporations to suck out money from weakminded people who sink more and more time into a game through addictive mechanisms. Granted, not all, I would say even most, p2p players are like that but they the ones who keep the p2p model up.
See virtually the exact same thing talking about p2p.
If you're buying the ex pack what are you paying for all that time with the sub ? ...other than the whole weak minded...sinking money into a game ect ect thing
That's why the exact same phrase can be used word for word for both pay types. A sub + paying for content is still double dipping. they've just been doing it so long people make better excuses for it.
I wasn't even commenting on the fact that they were mentioned in the article, just someone else saying that they weren't MMORPG. I"m just stating they don't need to be MMORPG, the industy does consider them MMO's.
Party size, IMO is irrelevant, as in any game I can really only group up with 6-10 anyway, it's the number of people I can interact with and then form the group that determines if it's an MMO and Lol fits that criteria.
Now we get to define interaction... yay.
Wow thanks for that link. It applies to just about every thread we have on the tired old topics of f2p, pvp, SWTOR...ect ect....in fact I can think of very few threads this doesn't apply to here. I'm pretty sure there's nothing magical about this place though :P
Translation from Smedish 'Entrance fee to our bazaar is zero, do you want to come in and check price tags on goods?'
OFC f2p is more profitable, same as junkfood franchise is more profitable than decent restaurant. But decent restaurants exist near mcdonald's and we have a choice, while in MMO industry games for more exacting players are nearly extinct. f2p is ok, extruding p2p model is not. I think, when market will settle, we'll have less wanna-be-wow and more various products for different niches, even small ones. Too bad, I'll be old by that time.
Since 80% or more of that so called F2P MMO revenue is likely in Asia, who cares?
Asian grinders have been shit for years.
More crap statistics that mean nothing. No break down on markets, which type of games, revenue models, none of that.
Just Smedley running his mouth to run his mouth and get some press coverage for the next average SOE release.
There are several problems with that argument. The first being the P2P with no additional services/items offered for a fee - do many of those exist? Do ANY of those exist? The second being that you have rationalized an expansion to somehow be different from any other microtransaction when it is not just the same but ticks every box that the people here check when railing against cash shops:
Is your issue the charge or the change? It seems very much like the latter.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Where did you get the 80% from. What makes your stat not a crap statistic that means nothing ?
MOBAs make up the bulk of that push. MMORPGs are not part of that major push. F2P and MMORPGs are not mixing nearly as well as other types of games. I think part of that is the players themselves pushing back against the idea. Humans are pretty risk averse. It doesn't take too many games, whether they are on phones or on the PCs where the developer tries to coerce the player into spending more money to continue playing before the MMORPG player just does not like F2P in general. I think that's why Wildstar and ESO are going with subscriptions. The MMO market is moving towards F2P, because in general it's possible to make more money, in the MMORPG market is not sold on the idea, except as a follow up to an initial subscription attempt.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
If you look at all the games in the games list here that are F2P you can get a 'general' sort of idea of where most of them are from, i wouldnt like to guess the exact percentage, but it does look like most of them are from a 'certain area' certainly they more than outnumber the P2P MMO's by a fairly significant percentage, perhaps the reason why ESO and Wildstar will be P2P games is because when you look at the 'wealth distribution' there is more money involved in P2P than F2P on a per game basis, its just that the F2P market looks much bigger because there are just so many of them - regardless of origin of the games.
So much junk to wade through now. Just like every other entertainment media.
Sure.
The future of the MMO market may not be MMORPG anyway. MOBA is big now. WoT type instanced games are big now. Devs are trying new stuff like Destiny.
from Ops source site
http://www.superdataresearch.com/market-data/online-games-research/
EQ2 fan sites
Ah yes. We once again hear how "great" f2p is and how much money they are GOING to make. But wait. If they were truly FREE how is it that they make money? Answer, they are far from free. Either someone is spending their money so that all the freeloader can play for free OR the game is losing money. In fact, the games that are f2p could be losing money because we only hear about how many PLAYERS have signed up and rarely how much money THEY SPEND. F2p is a scam. Those that want to avoid paying and be able to freeload don't wish to admit to this. The companies pushing this fraud don't want to tell the truth about it. And the game "fanbois" don't want to see their pride and joy spoken badly about. I think it is about time we take a good hard look at what the truth about so-called f2p really is....it is a ding joint.
Let's party like it is 1863!
And what does all that prove exactly ?
You won't know unless you subscribe to the SuperData Research reports. If you don't pay this company to access their data, you could be losing out on 100's of millions of $ worth of revenue !
Seems like the only party who are guaranteed to make money out of this apparent "F2P Boom" is SuperData Research...
Simple. Whales.
Free for me. Expensive for whales. It works.
Exactly right.
(And btw, where are S Korea, Taiwan, China, Japan, and even Russia? Those places are where the F2P players mostly come from.)
I don't remember the last time anyone was actually confused by how free to play worked so... I'm sorry you still are ?
If you're really trying to make this silly argument why don't you just go bump a 2 year old thread or something. At least it wont be so pout of place.
Considering companies have been buying the data for a couple years now - companies that have other data to check it against - then maybe there's some validity to the numbers and how they arrived at them. Honestly, even if the anti-F2P people here had the money to burn(and for all I know, some of you do), I'd suggest you never buy their reports. That much supported fact contradicting so many of your adamant beliefs would certain be hazardous to your health.
I mean, seriously... dismissing the data because you're not going to be suckered in by this snake oil like those clowns at Deloitt, Microsoft, Google, MorganStanley, PayPal, Casual Connect... because they don't know nearly as much about the industry as you do, right?
It just gets really silly sometimes.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'm not saying their data is correct or not but it's showing what the avg spent per month is. $31/month is higher than $15/month ( what subs are )....so if the real f2p players are in the missing markets what does that say about the argument you're trying to make here ?
At that point, we're talking some crazy money then.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
*chuckles*
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
And what does all that prove exactly ? You won't know unless you subscribe to the SuperData Research reports. If you don't pay this company to access their data, you could be losing out on 100's of millions of $ worth of revenue ! Seems like the only party who are guaranteed to make money out of this apparent "F2P Boom" is SuperData Research...
Exactly right.
(And btw, where are S Korea, Taiwan, China, Japan, and even Russia? Those places are where the F2P players mostly come from.)
F2P is growing in the West, mostly in the U.S. It's probably reached a market saturation point in Asia, so not much point in showing people, especially western developers, those numbers.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.