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A fascinating backlash from the community
Quirhid
Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
in EVE Online
Gevlon wrote this article a while back on Evenews about how there is very little skill involved in Eve's PvP, in general. Now everyone I've talked to about this, be that many year-vet or someone who has merely tried Eve for a couple of months, have more or less agreed with the article. I agree with the article! But what is fascinating is the vitriolic replies in the comment section.
Did the topic strike too close to home? Did someone feel the article was an attack on them personally?
Your thoughts?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Comments
Comments, the only reason to read the internet.
I tend to agree with the author of the article in that most of the large battle "skills" come from planning and not from individual piloting. Though the author does include training the individual pilots as part of that planner's skill set.
I think this article argues Semantics. The author is discrediting the skill in a strategy game.
I do not view DOTA/LoL clones as "strategy" games in the strict sense that many do people seem to today. Strategy is all about using your knowledge wisely to prepare yourself for your next move. Just like in a chess, a wise and skillful Eve player will make sure that targets are chosen wisely for the type of ship they are currently flying. They will also know how to use the UI and manage proper engagement.
A skilled eve pilot will usually have won before the battle has already begun. This is because they know that they are properly equipped to have the upper hand for the target they have chosen. In the event that the battle is evenly matched (such as the tournaments suggested), the skill is all about anticipating what moves your opponent will make next and execute without mistakes.
All games are going to have unskilled players that join the zerg - whether it's a traditional MMO such as WoW, a hardcore MMO such as Darkfall or a strategic MMO such as Eve. But saying that Eve PvP doesn't have skill just because it isn't played with "muscle memory" or twitch skill is kind of silly.
This article is like comparing football to chess and saying chess doesn't require skill.
Eve never has and never will be based on the individual reflexes and agility of it's players. It's not a FPS nor is it a true flight/space sim, rather, it's gameplay is based on the organizational skills, planning and outright deviousness of it's players. I've always thought that it completely leveled the playing field in the age of all the CoD/BF/Halo elitists because a twitchy finger gives you no advantage. Thinking nonstop from the moment you login until the moment you logout is the skillset necessary to succeed.
As far as the backlash, hehehe... That unto itself is part of the charm that is Eve. The first attribute one should upgrade when rolling a new character is: Thick Skin. Eve does not suffer fools and punishes all. While a lot of the comments are just flaming, have no doubt that there are very smart, calculating people at those keyboards typing them that are prepared to make your life miserable the moment you undock. And that in itself, is a skill...
I want to play a game where people make my gaming experience miserable why?
Good points.
As far as 'backlash' is concerned, the comments don't look much different from many of the other articles on EVENews24. Don't get me wrong - I really enjoy reading EVENews24, but there are quite a few articles and authors that always get responses like that there.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'm not really surprised by the bulk of the responses; these are Eve's best and... Ummm... Brightest, after all, but the extreme amount of severe butthurt on display really should be a clue to them.
The guy waffled on about a few things but he didnt really put his argument forward with any real conviction, maybe he just didnt understand. PVP in Eve is not just about 2 ships battling away at each other until one loses, not even close, and that is something that doesnt require skill, that is just a battle of who has the best tank vs dps vs ewar etc. Skill in Eve is not about who can win a fair fight, because there isnt such a thing as one, never has been, and any idiot that gets themselves into a 'fair fight' is probably on the wrong end of a gank
Teamwork, Tactics and 'ship' knowledge, sort of approaches it, i've seen fights that looked unwinnable, but turned into walkovers simply because of the actions of one guy, the FC, probably the most important person in any engagement, but thats just one type of skill, and a hard earned one at that (which i sadly don't have
)
Theres also the guys out there gathering intel on ship movements, the tacklers the tankers, and the various flavours of ewar, the heavy tackle the dps boats, logistics and whatever, i'd try and list out fleet compositions here but it just isnt practical, the point is it all takes a certain amount of skill to use effectively, rushing in and trusting to 'luck' is a sure fire way of finding yourself in your latest clone.
Saying Eve PvP doesnt require skill is kind of dumb, almost like the guy who preys on miners, steals a bit of ore from them and gets themselves flagged as a criminal, to bait them, only to have a couple of ships uncloak and scramble/web them and then kill his ship for him, and then they complain they were 'ganked' .. they so totally were, but.. no skill involved, nope, none at all
Not trying to be sarcastic, but; to reciprocate. I would ask if you've ever played Eve? Eve is it's own special little animal in the mmo-sphere and I really don't think it can be compared to any other game out there. Part of what makes Eve the game that it is, is that there are people committed to causing pain and grief to any they encounter and daring you to respond in kind. Most games throw PvP into their game mechanics in a vain attempt to draw in a certain demographic of player and always wind up pissing off both the PvE and PvP crowd. Eve is (currently) in my opinion the only game that makes PvP an integrated mechanic that has meaning. I would say that if you are asking the question then the playstyle is definitely not the experience that you're looking for.
It's just different strokes for different folks.
The article talked about player skill, not just twitch and muscle memory. There is a degree of mechanical expertise in every game you must obtain to be good, but every game also has a degree of mental expertise as well. And while games like LoL, Starcraft and Street Fighter may need a high level of mechanical skill, that doesn't mean those games require any less mental skill; thus, a game like Eve Online may need less skill, in general, than any of the games mentioned.
Make all the bookmarks, do the scouting, organize the fleet, be ready to deploy or have it deployed if you have anything to deploy, make sure fleet boosters are in place, set up target callers, anchors, warp-ins... Often it is like going through a checklist. How does preparing take skill if it is just a chore?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Not only that but people pay for that........Eve is the ultimate "let me ruin your fun" game, and I could never see what was any fun about it to begin with.
I do agree with the article.
The reason most people get so worked about discussions like these, is because they tend to take them personally. Pointing out that a game lacks skill, or is indeed 'simple', is often translated into a global statement of 'you all suck' or 'you all like bad games'.
It's a maturity issue. Some people understand that there is a difference between enjoying a low skill-cap game, and being unskillful yourself. Just being good or bad at a game doesn't really matter for 99% of the people playing them (the 1% being those that play them on a competitive-professional level). Some players assume that how good a game is, is a reflection of how good or bad they are as a person. Which isn't true. However, because so many people believe it is, they will argue to death multiple times over to try and justify the games they play.
EvE is a strategy game at its core. There is skill involved, but its not the same skill as an action game.
Dunno, I could imagine that the author of the linked article might be happier with something like a flight simulator where he "sits inside the cockpit" and flies the plane and has maybe a navigator at his side who takes care of the rest. Maybe there he might get a feeling that speedy reactions, dodging attacks and "reading" your opponents are vital.
Besides skill has a broad meaning, e.g. skillful at a strategy game, skilled craftsman, skillful at some physical sport, etc. Skill simply means a good understanding or mastery of a certain discipline (whether it involves physical or mental traits).
The thing is, there are multiple different kinds of skill.
Reaction / Timing
Strategy / Planning
Teamwork / Coordination
Aiming / Accuracy
Positioning
Efficiency / Speed
Prediction
A game like Eve typically has 2 types of skill, 3 at the most (positioning, planning, teamwork). A game like chess has more (especially if you are playing speed chess). Strategy, Planning, Efficiency, Prediction, Positioning. Now, a game like DotA has more types of skill than that: Reaction, Timing, Strategy, Planning, Teamwork, Coordination, Accuracy, Positioning, Efficiency, Speed, Prediction. However, not all MOBAs are the same, and indeed some (like LoL, or SMITE) still have a lot of skill types involved, but less of a skill cap (as you have to keep track of less things in order to be competitive).
Now, that doesn't mean that all types of skill are represented equally across all games. For example, chess often involves predicting a multitude of moves ahead, and is indeed known for having one of the highest skill-caps for strategy. However Eve's skill relies mostly in the preparation (stockpiling ships & resources), and then later positioning. Much less complex or involved.
MOBAs, on the other hand, have less strategy / predicting than chess; but they are also confined to limited resources, yet also have many levels of prediction, preparation, and strategy. The first level being the draft (which heroes you pick, deteremines what you're capable of, and which weaknesses you will have to deal with. That's the first layer of strategy and counter-strategy. Second, you have your item build (which changes dynamically to accommodate the situation). You then have things like skill builds, combo attacks, last hits / denies, warding & counter warding, ganking & counter-ganking, micro-managing minions, items, efficienctly balancing the economy (kills vs. farming vs. roaming). It's a lot more involved than I think most people realize. And indeed the average person does not play these games on such an advanced level.
- Thing is, Eve does have skill, but for more competitive players, it might not be enough. Some games are more complex than others, and some players enjoy games that are more demanding than others.
I think you should add "routines" both mental and mechanical into your list somewhere there, but for the most part I agree with your post. Good points.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
EVE is a game of Grand Strategy, and it's the finest example of that style available in massively multiplayer genres.
MOBA's are not strategic, they're tactical. Now some people with high twitch skills will try to argue semantics and insist that "tactics" is nothing else than "strategy" performed very quickly, but that's usually just an attempt to make themselves look superior on all fronts
its the main reason i read forums
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
If you are comparing a single battle in EVE to a game of chess or a match in a MOBA, then I agree with much of your assessment. However, EVE gameplay, and a player's/team's strategies for success/victory, are on a much larger scale than that single battle. Some may not even be about the individual battle at all. Social engineering, diplomacy and even some of the aspects you dismiss (timing, efficiency, prediction) are all part of the skills needed to succeed in various aspects of EVE, especially PVP.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Reason I didn't add "routines" is because routines are basically a way of internalizing those same skill sets. I guess in a way it can become a skill in and of itself, but it's not really an aspect of the game, so much as it is an aspect of the player.
I feel MANY on both sides of a skill argument forget what skills are.Sure you can have some skill in setting up your ship but ONLY if you KNOW what your opposition will be,otherwise it is a crap shoot.
So the actual skill comes from your ship operation and Even has VERY little ship operation skills.
IMO you can never match the skill set of a fps arena type scenario because it offers almost every single aspect of thought ,reflexes,versatility and tactics like being sneaky and tricking your opponent into thinking one thing when you are actually doing something else or going somewhere else.FPS arena also offers z-axis and escape and cover routes,just offers it all and no space game can come close.Also in Arena combat you are constantly rethinking your strategy,changing your weapon often and relying a lot on prediction because you literally do not know where your opponent is but can reliably guess if you are well versed and skilled on map play.
If i gave FPS arena combat a 10 as the set standard,Eve would be like a 5.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
What's your describing is essentially a secondary game, played by a very small segment of the game's population. The same exact things happen in Guild Wars 2, but I doubt Eve players would acknowledge it as a game of equal skill.
If a game was designed to let players be the pieces in chess. Moving a square here or there is not that exciting or skillful. The person giving them orders does have more to do and more to think about, but he wouldn't be the majority of the game's players. The pieces would.
Political / Social aspects exist in any multiplayer game where the players choose to take it seriously. That doesn't necessarily make it a mechanic.
You can try to argue that because a game like Eve has multiple battles, that it is somehow more complex. However, MOBAs do as well. Winning a team fight doesn't mean you won the game. The scale may be smaller, but that doesn't inherently make it less complex.
After all, Civilization V has tons of battles, huge maps, and many players controlling tons of units. However, that doesn't change the gameplay from being extremely simple. The entire game is essentially a race to 1 up everyone else, with very little in the way of nuance, or complex strategy. Then you look at a game like Starcraft. It's essentially only 1 match at a time. However, there is MUCH more complexity in that one match vs. the entire game of Civ 5. They're both excellent games, but Starcraft 2 makes every little thing relevant and game changing. Civ 5 doesn't.
The same can be said when comparing a game like Eve to a game like DotA. Eve looks complex when viewing it as a spreadsheet. But gameplay wise, it's really a lot more simple than people seem to realize.
Are some people demonstrably better at EVE pvp than others?
I posit yes, and I've got a raft of Rooks and Kings videos to prove my position. Since skill is defined as "the ability to do something well; expertise", then by definition EVE pvp requires skill. Simple as that.
Playing: FFXIV, EVE
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yeah, funny thing about that, people who claim that EVE requires little skill can't actually win consistently vs others that figure out a way to do so.
But it takes no skill, anyone can do it.
Right.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon