Originally posted by NetSage I think something like SAO would be cool and could technically be released pretty early. Each floor is cleared when the floor boss is killed and you go to the next one. Perma-death so those who don't need to be #1 or are afraid of losing their characters will stay on lower floors and keep them populated and run shops/craft and what not to keep the people at the top geared. And, since not everything will be available at launch you can add floors as needed.
Seem like people said about it lately , but aside from the perma-death idea which add to make that toon more about dead game ,
Aside from sell point virtual game world , it's a normal sandbox game where it give player more tools to impact object in game world.
Original design was monster grind and adventure where you explore map to find floor boss room and slay monster on floor to gain stats/item until you get enough power to take down boss.
If design give player 1 month to clean 1 floor (find boss , raise stat , craft item with new materials) , with 100 floor , it will take you 100 months ~ 8 to 9 years live . Talk in design point , SOA original life span are 8~9 years , may be take more than 10 or lest than 4~5 years if player clean 1 floor in 2~3 weeks .
SAO (lol it non exit game)design are long term game with long life span , and not 1-2 months current short term game.
What it make SAO look interest are it Easter eggs system where secret hide here and there. Even if you clean floor and move to next it don't mean you ready clean all secret of game
Base on toon and novel , it puzzle design in high floor need you go to lower floor to find key to compete it.
More higher of floor puzzle become more complex because range are large.
Another is one time event design that created unique story that only some player have and don't repeat again to other player.
But that only idea game of a novel , still impossible to make it and don't sure if it can sell or not. Remember , it sell point are virtual world which impossible to created with current technology .
Went it comes right down to it the only difference between "kill 20 x for y" quests and doing "instance x for a chance at y" is the massive amount of time put into the latter.
both are dull and repetitive after a while.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Some would say EVE is an example of a game that starts at end-game. It has been done, it just needs to be done in more games. Starting at end game works very well in sand boxes but not so much in themeparks.
People need solo time to learn the game. How would you distinguish between them in raids/pvp? Legendary storylines in endgame would be amazing though. Kind of the time and effort it takes to do WoW-pre-tbc endgame. Perhaps hardmode leveling with a legendary reward. So let's say you're pro you can do it from the start in hardmode and then unlock a storyline in endgame. Let's say you're noob you level in normal mode and then do the storyline in hardmode.
In my opinion skilled players should get the shinies!
Originally posted by Novusod Some would say EVE is an example of a game that starts at end-game. It has been done, it just needs to be done in more games. Starting at end game works very well in sand boxes but not so much in themeparks.
Some would be so completely wrong that they make no sense too. A new character is more or less useless in Eve compared to an established player. The only way you can say this is if your own personal definition of end game is specifically tied to raiding which is absurd.
Everquest II currently allows you to start from endgame with a fully fleshed out archetype with basic gear for that level. Go play that and see how you like it, then come back and let us know if it was as fun as you thought it would be. Not saying that it won't be, but just to say that it is being done.
A game that startzs at endgame rather sounds like a lobby game to me han an MMORPG (and I guess most people would be fine with that anyway, just standing around using LFG tools).
A game like that would lose me rather quickly, as it offers no immersion. The moment I reach "endgame" and there is nothing ore to do with my chatracter other than rinse and repeat the same dungeons on different difficulties is the usually the point a game loses my interest rather quickly. I have single player games to do the same thing all over again in a diffrent difficulty. To me a MMORPG should have a lonbg journey through a world, without questhubs, but much stuff zu explore and the moment you reach max lvl should be really an acievement.
So if I am correct you just want a normal multiplayer game but instead of the FPS games we already have you would like it to be fantasy based or have the usual mmo mechanics except the "journey part" ?
I wouldn't mind another sub-genre to MMO's where games like Vindictus seem to offer just that what's normaly at "cap lvl". But I do not believe MMORPG's should move even more away from their basic concept.
Essentially you just have raids and esports and quest and slay monsters how you like and when you like. Its not a bad idea but its foreign way of thinking for a lot of players.
Haven't seen this mentioned yet, but GW2 starts at the endgame.
Sure it may not be the typical endgame, but the core idea is that you're already doing at level 1 what you expect to be doing at max level. At level 1 you'd be facing a boss. As soon as you got out of the tutorial level, you can join WvWvW, or the PvP arena. Of course you can't join your fellow 80's to go battle world bosses, or enter Arah, but some dungeons and zones (Southsun) kicks up players to the appropriate level.
I'm not saying GW2 will necessary interest you, though I personally think it's a great game.
Haven't seen this mentioned yet, but GW2 starts at the endgame.
Sure it may not be the typical endgame, but the core idea is that you're already doing at level 1 what you expect to be doing at max level. At level 1 you'd be facing a boss. As soon as you got out of the tutorial level, you can join WvWvW, or the PvP arena. Of course you can't join your fellow 80's to go battle world bosses, or enter Arah, but some dungeons and zones (Southsun) kicks up players to the appropriate level.
I'm not saying GW2 will necessary interest you, though I personally think it's a great game.
Not really. You get autoleveld to 80 in pvp, but your pve experience is not going to start at endgame.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.
Originally posted by Iylz Well someone talked about a progressive type of raiding. I personally don't like to raid because most are not hard to figure out and then its more of a tedious obligation than fun. That's why I mentioned EQ:Ns system they have in place to change each raid encounter with every entrance, or whatever. You could have different raids of different difficulty levels and you can only progress through completion of the previous. Incorporate some of the dynamic event ideas that have started to come about to have PvE content changing.
You have EQN mixed up with Wildstar. Wildstar will have the changing weekly raid bosses(abilities). As far as I know, EQN has not stated they will have this. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Originally posted by Sho0terMcgavinYou have EQN mixed up with Wildstar. Wildstar will have the changing weekly raid bosses(abilities). As far as I know, EQN has not stated they will have this. Correct me if I'm wrong.
In EQN when you kill a raid boss it stays dead. You don't camp the same thing every week.
Haven't seen this mentioned yet, but GW2 starts at the endgame.
GW2 has the majority of the content out of your reach at early levels and you haven't customized your character at all. I really don't think that is the same thing at all. GW2 doesn't have progression, your character never really gets stronger because it always scales the game to be easy but not a complete joke. At low lvls it does scale you up in a few places but you are pretty weak when it does. GW2 is about the worst system they could have.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by DMKano Originally posted by feena750EQ Next is doing this. Allowing the whole world to be available to everyone, instead of segmented by levels. I think eventually that is where MMORPGs will head.
Was this a new announcement I missed?
The game was clearly described as having Tiers of content, gated by gear, if you didn't have Tier 3 gear, you couldn't do Tier 3 content for example.
Look at this EQN whiteboard sketch showing Tiers (see that red T3 barrier)
I guess it depends on how you define end game. In EQN you'll be able to do everything that anyone else can do right away but you will be locked out of areas until you complete the progression system to get to it. To me this is basically the same as leveling. The same can be said for Eve, UO or GW1 or any other game anyone has mentioned.
So yeah a number of games allow you to do all parts of the game right away but I have yet to see a MMORPG that reasonably lets you do all content straight out of the gate. I'm not sure that concept would even work.
I just think the leveling to max level should be a lot shorter, like a week maximum while playing casually, maybe a day hardcore. Just to get an essential hang of your character.
The endgame is going to be awful, anyway, so your proposal just means skipping the potentially interesting part of the game to go straight to the awful endgame.
Unless, of course, you have a proposal for an endgame that is actually good, in which case, you might want to explain.
Honestly I have never thought about game development but some of the most memorable moments I have had in MMORPGs were end-game things that I had experienced.
.
SWG - Massive PvP battles - Wicked Space Battles - The aesthetic elements
GW2 - WvW w/ proper gear - roaming
Age of Conan - Sieges (although broken) - Open - World PvP
Daoc - Whaaaaaaaaat - The Wars (This was almost unparalleled fun)
Aurora World - Nation Wars
Silk Road Online - Fights over caravans
I can go on and on.......but these were some of my most fondest memories of gaming and they all really happened after the leveling process.
Sounds like your idea of endgame is lots of PvP, which many people are not interested in. There are some games like Forge that you may be interested in.
There are also many people who would like lots of ppv. Myself included.
I'm more for abolishing end game anyway.
However, I love creating my character and leveling so I suppose I'm not one for starting with everything and dropping myself into a siege.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
The endgame is going to be awful, anyway, so your proposal just means skipping the potentially interesting part of the game to go straight to the awful endgame.
Unless, of course, you have a proposal for an endgame that is actually good, in which case, you might want to explain.
Honestly I have never thought about game development but some of the most memorable moments I have had in MMORPGs were end-game things that I had experienced.
.
SWG - Massive PvP battles - Wicked Space Battles - The aesthetic elements
GW2 - WvW w/ proper gear - roaming
Age of Conan - Sieges (although broken) - Open - World PvP
Daoc - Whaaaaaaaaat - The Wars (This was almost unparalleled fun)
Aurora World - Nation Wars
Silk Road Online - Fights over caravans
I can go on and on.......but these were some of my most fondest memories of gaming and they all really happened after the leveling process.
Sounds like your idea of endgame is lots of PvP, which many people are not interested in. There are some games like Forge that you may be interested in.
Yup. Endgame is typically PvP and raids, neither of which I engage in at all. That's why, without exception, the minute any character of mine hits max level, it gets retired. I do not play endgame at all. Any MMO that started at endgame would get passed by entirely by a huge percentage of PvE players.
But that's not really endgame, it's a low level cap. When you hit level 20, you were still doing all the same things that you did before level 20, the game didn't change, you just didn't get any more levels.
Though my initial reaction was to /boggle at the OP's suggestion, it does raise some interesting questions. As others have already alluded to, players look for some kind of progression in games - some way to become more powerful. So if you start at a themepark-style endgame with raiding, how do you progress? And what are you progressing toward?
How do you obtain your first set of gear to be able to jump into the game? How do you learn your skills/class/role? Is there solo content if the game is about raiding? Does crafting have a place in an raiding game? What is there to do if you are not raiding?
I've played in a number of beta or test environments where you are auto-leveled to cap, equipped with a full set of raiding gear and let loose to test the content. Beyond the other "fluff" things you might do on live servers, there isn't any reason to have the good stuff except to raid. And once you're done, there's no reason to hang around. Is that what you had in mind, OP? Would be hard to make any money on that game.
Comments
Seem like people said about it lately , but aside from the perma-death idea which add to make that toon more about dead game ,
Aside from sell point virtual game world , it's a normal sandbox game where it give player more tools to impact object in game world.
Original design was monster grind and adventure where you explore map to find floor boss room and slay monster on floor to gain stats/item until you get enough power to take down boss.
If design give player 1 month to clean 1 floor (find boss , raise stat , craft item with new materials) , with 100 floor , it will take you 100 months ~ 8 to 9 years live . Talk in design point , SOA original life span are 8~9 years , may be take more than 10 or lest than 4~5 years if player clean 1 floor in 2~3 weeks .
SAO (lol it non exit game)design are long term game with long life span , and not 1-2 months current short term game.
What it make SAO look interest are it Easter eggs system where secret hide here and there. Even if you clean floor and move to next it don't mean you ready clean all secret of game
Base on toon and novel , it puzzle design in high floor need you go to lower floor to find key to compete it.
More higher of floor puzzle become more complex because range are large.
Another is one time event design that created unique story that only some player have and don't repeat again to other player.
But that only idea game of a novel , still impossible to make it and don't sure if it can sell or not. Remember , it sell point are virtual world which impossible to created with current technology .
Went it comes right down to it the only difference between "kill 20 x for y" quests and doing "instance x for a chance at y" is the massive amount of time put into the latter.
both are dull and repetitive after a while.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
OP, i guess your one of those people that starts reading a book by reading the last chapter first.
Why bother even playing games?
People need solo time to learn the game. How would you distinguish between them in raids/pvp? Legendary storylines in endgame would be amazing though. Kind of the time and effort it takes to do WoW-pre-tbc endgame. Perhaps hardmode leveling with a legendary reward. So let's say you're pro you can do it from the start in hardmode and then unlock a storyline in endgame. Let's say you're noob you level in normal mode and then do the storyline in hardmode.
In my opinion skilled players should get the shinies!
Some would be so completely wrong that they make no sense too. A new character is more or less useless in Eve compared to an established player. The only way you can say this is if your own personal definition of end game is specifically tied to raiding which is absurd.
A game that startzs at endgame rather sounds like a lobby game to me han an MMORPG (and I guess most people would be fine with that anyway, just standing around using LFG tools).
A game like that would lose me rather quickly, as it offers no immersion. The moment I reach "endgame" and there is nothing ore to do with my chatracter other than rinse and repeat the same dungeons on different difficulties is the usually the point a game loses my interest rather quickly. I have single player games to do the same thing all over again in a diffrent difficulty. To me a MMORPG should have a lonbg journey through a world, without questhubs, but much stuff zu explore and the moment you reach max lvl should be really an acievement.
it can work
DAOC never raised the level cap among a half dozen expansions
EQ2 fan sites
So if I am correct you just want a normal multiplayer game but instead of the FPS games we already have you would like it to be fantasy based or have the usual mmo mechanics except the "journey part" ?
I wouldn't mind another sub-genre to MMO's where games like Vindictus seem to offer just that what's normaly at "cap lvl". But I do not believe MMORPG's should move even more away from their basic concept.
Haven't seen this mentioned yet, but GW2 starts at the endgame.
Sure it may not be the typical endgame, but the core idea is that you're already doing at level 1 what you expect to be doing at max level. At level 1 you'd be facing a boss. As soon as you got out of the tutorial level, you can join WvWvW, or the PvP arena. Of course you can't join your fellow 80's to go battle world bosses, or enter Arah, but some dungeons and zones (Southsun) kicks up players to the appropriate level.
I'm not saying GW2 will necessary interest you, though I personally think it's a great game.
Not really. You get autoleveld to 80 in pvp, but your pve experience is not going to start at endgame.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.
You have EQN mixed up with Wildstar. Wildstar will have the changing weekly raid bosses(abilities). As far as I know, EQN has not stated they will have this. Correct me if I'm wrong.
In EQN when you kill a raid boss it stays dead. You don't camp the same thing every week.
GW2 has the majority of the content out of your reach at early levels and you haven't customized your character at all. I really don't think that is the same thing at all. GW2 doesn't have progression, your character never really gets stronger because it always scales the game to be easy but not a complete joke. At low lvls it does scale you up in a few places but you are pretty weak when it does. GW2 is about the worst system they could have.
Guild Wars (I), April 2005.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
The game was clearly described as having Tiers of content, gated by gear, if you didn't have Tier 3 gear, you couldn't do Tier 3 content for example.
Look at this EQN whiteboard sketch showing Tiers (see that red T3 barrier)
I guess it depends on how you define end game. In EQN you'll be able to do everything that anyone else can do right away but you will be locked out of areas until you complete the progression system to get to it. To me this is basically the same as leveling. The same can be said for Eve, UO or GW1 or any other game anyone has mentioned.
So yeah a number of games allow you to do all parts of the game right away but I have yet to see a MMORPG that reasonably lets you do all content straight out of the gate. I'm not sure that concept would even work.
There are also many people who would like lots of ppv. Myself included.
I'm more for abolishing end game anyway.
However, I love creating my character and leveling so I suppose I'm not one for starting with everything and dropping myself into a siege.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Yup. Endgame is typically PvP and raids, neither of which I engage in at all. That's why, without exception, the minute any character of mine hits max level, it gets retired. I do not play endgame at all. Any MMO that started at endgame would get passed by entirely by a huge percentage of PvE players.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
But that's not really endgame, it's a low level cap. When you hit level 20, you were still doing all the same things that you did before level 20, the game didn't change, you just didn't get any more levels.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
GW2 starts with end game.
AC1 started with end game.
UO started with end game.
Those games just didn't drastically change what you were doing in game once you reached some "level cap", they kept being the same game.
My computer is better than yours.
Though my initial reaction was to /boggle at the OP's suggestion, it does raise some interesting questions. As others have already alluded to, players look for some kind of progression in games - some way to become more powerful. So if you start at a themepark-style endgame with raiding, how do you progress? And what are you progressing toward?
How do you obtain your first set of gear to be able to jump into the game? How do you learn your skills/class/role? Is there solo content if the game is about raiding? Does crafting have a place in an raiding game? What is there to do if you are not raiding?
I've played in a number of beta or test environments where you are auto-leveled to cap, equipped with a full set of raiding gear and let loose to test the content. Beyond the other "fluff" things you might do on live servers, there isn't any reason to have the good stuff except to raid. And once you're done, there's no reason to hang around. Is that what you had in mind, OP? Would be hard to make any money on that game.
no not just end game,like shyrim every npc you talk to gives you a mission.
every npc must give lots of missions,also dungens and pvp worlds.
no levelling just gaining xp,a living world then people will play for years and no sub. or small sub.