Originally posted by Nadia this needs a companion article of Best MMOs for gamers who enjoy teamwork
It would be the same list, as each individual decides *how* they want to play their games, socially or not, you can play Rift, WoW, SWTOR, GW2 excusively with your guild if you want to.
I remember having friends over for solo games on C64, Amiga 500, Nintendo etc...
Its up to you to be social, or not.
Getting tired of reading this excuse for a lack of multi-player in MMORPGs, emphasis on the MM part. There is an entire genre for players that don't want to socialize, they're single-player games. I can be extremely social, doesn't mean anyone else is going to be. You need other people to actually care about grouping, and in these games they don't. WoW player-base is especially viscous, in my experience, with players that are not already experts in all the dungeons and simply want to enjoy the experience.
Grouping will always be a lot more work than soloing, if there is no incentive then these players will never do it. All we have left are dungeons and raids to actually interact with other players. The sad part of that is that in most of these games we can exclude the dungeons part for socializing. Being able to run through an entire dungeon without anyone ever saying ANYTHING is pretty common. Guild Wars 2 is especially bad for this. Other players may as well be NPC. If you don't want the MMO part in your game, that's fine. There are a TON of games, and an entire genre called "Single player role-playing games". Why are they trying to change the defining characteristic of this genre? Frankly, it sucks.
What lack of Multiplayer?
All these MMO's have tons of Group content! Come on now! Don't be so silly!
I am sorry, but an MMO that has Group content ONLY will be dead within a month!
Just face it! People don't want to sit and wait for a Group to come together, before they can play each and every single time they log onto the game!
Sometimes, you just want to log in, do some stuff, have some fun and log out again!
And other times, when I have more time, I go do some Group content.
It's all about CHOICE! Nothing wrong With that.
Plus! No one says you cannot Group up With someone and even do Solo content With another friend!
This is an issue on which there is an enormous culture gap between players in the genre. To me, MMOs are primarily about a shared world, not formal grouping. In fact, formal grouping is the antithesis of what an MMO means to me becasue it reduces the fluid crossing of paths to isolated pockets of forced dependancy.
Any argument that solo play is like a single-player game can be replaced with the argument that formal grouping is just a LAN party.
But in general, if I ever I find myself judging how other people are playing a game, I remind myself that it's my problem, not theirs.
Yes that was very well said.
Case in point, a lot of people wrote SWToR off as a single player game. All I can say is that I did more grouping in SWToR than I ever did in, say, LOTRO.
It just happened that way. I was out in the world, people needed help, yadda, yadda, yadda, an evening was spent.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I'm surprised that TSW didn't make this list TBH - it has some really nice story elements and lots of puzzle-type play.
Overall, I personally think that it could have been better to have developed it as a solo game rather than an MMO.
I also think that, if they had been freed from the requirements of an MMO, they could have made a better combat system (IMO the combat's alrightish...but I didn't find it very engaging)
Originally posted by Nadia this needs a companion article of Best MMOs for gamers who enjoy teamwork
It would be the same list, as each individual decides *how* they want to play their games, socially or not, you can play Rift, WoW, SWTOR, GW2 excusively with your guild if you want to.
I remember having friends over for solo games on C64, Amiga 500, Nintendo etc...
Its up to you to be social, or not.
Getting tired of reading this excuse for a lack of multi-player in MMORPGs, emphasis on the MM part. There is an entire genre for players that don't want to socialize, they're single-player games. I can be extremely social, doesn't mean anyone else is going to be. You need other people to actually care about grouping, and in these games they don't. WoW player-base is especially viscous, in my experience, with players that are not already experts in all the dungeons and simply want to enjoy the experience.
Grouping will always be a lot more work than soloing, if there is no incentive then these players will never do it. All we have left are dungeons and raids to actually interact with other players. The sad part of that is that in most of these games we can exclude the dungeons part for socializing. Being able to run through an entire dungeon without anyone ever saying ANYTHING is pretty common. Guild Wars 2 is especially bad for this. Other players may as well be NPC. If you don't want the MMO part in your game, that's fine. There are a TON of games, and an entire genre called "Single player role-playing games". Why are they trying to change the defining characteristic of this genre? Frankly, it sucks.
This is pretty much how I feel. Take for instance any "multiplayer" game, perhaps monopoly or checkers. Ever try to play this game solo? Probably not. That's why I feel an MMO should truly require a majority of the content or the best parts to be, you guessed it, multiplayer.
I'm all for solo content but that should be a minority in a MMO. To add to my analogy, take any single player game, such as solitaire. Just because you have a room filled with people all playing solitaire, it does not necessarily make the game multiplayer. Then again, I'm only arguing the semantics of listing a game as MMO vs MO (if there ever was such a thing)
Originally posted by reillan I would love to see an MMO where you couldn't even proceed past level 10 without grouping with one other person, 25 without 4... it would certainly slow down the leveling curve and force people to get to know one another.
as somebody had mentioned earlier, raids are frequently done w/o anybody ever saying a word in chat. being forced to party with some people to progress is, to a lesser extent, about the same as being forced into a guild/clan/crew/gang/etc to proceed. i don't know if being strong armed into something would be the best of ideas.
When analyzing the point of solo content in a MMO, don't forget the design considerations. These points weren't considered in the first MMO's, and it showed a poor grasp of game design:
1-Forced grouping boned new players when no other players were available.
2-Pooling of players at max level meant #1 got worse.
3-Assuming all players were competent, both socially and in gameplay prowess.
4-Assuming all players were altruistic. Whether it's League of Legends or World of Warcraft, the genre draws its share of trolls and dbags. The infestation by the scum of society also seems to be getting worse.
just because a mmo has a huge single player content does not make it a single player mmo.
when i started gaming, it was about achieving, about doing the stuff your friends could not (so far). about compling lvls or difficulties none of your mates could conquer.
that changed. people wanted a quicker approach, they got it. now they cry. sounds normal to me.
sure, you can play devil may cry on easy and think you have beaten the game. but if you never tried it on hardest setting..... you didn't realy try at all.
same goes for mmos (especially WoW).
the raidfinder is NOT endcontent. it gives the noobs a glimps into end content, the casual raiders a way to boost their items (so they can complete the harder challanges).
try setting up your own (non flex) raid and then clear dem raids again. you will find out - it's not easy at all.
"believe me, mike.. i calculated the odds of this working against the odds that i was doing something incredibly stupid and i did it anyway!"
Originally posted by bcbully Your #1 is completely wrong in the case of Age of Wushu. You essentially will not progress solo. The game does not apologize for this either.
The implication isn't that ALL games are solo-able, just that most are. I'm sure AoW is a peach.
That's odd, here I thought the phrases "every MMO" and "Look at any game you've played in recent memory" pretty much explicitly stated that ALL games are solo-able.
I am so glad MMO's finally wised up. It is kinda like chatting with friends on your Xbox 360. I want to BS and laugh with my friends but I hardly ever want to play the game they are currently playing. Almost NEVER!
------------------------------------------- Control is an illusion!
Originally posted by DMKano Raid content - not soloable
Perhaps you missed Suzie's ending line: "Sure there are places that might never be seen because of the shunning of joining up with others, but that's generally small and easily overlooked by those who simply prefer to play alone."
What percentage of an MMO is raiding? Is it significant enough to warrant your post?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by maplestone This is an issue on which there is an enormous culture gap between players in the genre. To me, MMOs are primarily about a shared world, not formal grouping. In fact, formal grouping is the antithesis of what an MMO means to me becasue it reduces the fluid crossing of paths to isolated pockets of forced dependancy.Any argument that solo play is like a single-player game can be replaced with the argument that formal grouping is just a LAN party. But in general, if I ever I find myself judging how other people are playing a game, I remind myself that it's my problem, not theirs.
Have to add my own praises to the others for a great post, maplestone +1 Thumbs Up +1 Like + Agree +1000 Internets
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by reillan I would love to see an MMO where you couldn't even proceed past level 10 without grouping with one other person, 25 without 4... it would certainly slow down the leveling curve and force people to get to know one another.
as somebody had mentioned earlier, raids are frequently done w/o anybody ever saying a word in chat. being forced to party with some people to progress is, to a lesser extent, about the same as being forced into a guild/clan/crew/gang/etc to proceed. i don't know if being strong armed into something would be the best of ideas.
Forced grouping worked great when I was in Final Fantasy 11. In all my 5 years of playing I was never in a party where no one said a word. You need people to progress which led to people acting right and it was the best community I have ever been in. Now you dont need anyone so you can say whatever you want because with group finders who cares ill never see these people again.
Originally posted by reillan I would love to see an MMO where you couldn't even proceed past level 10 without grouping with one other person, 25 without 4... it would certainly slow down the leveling curve and force people to get to know one another.
I would not play it.
Sometimes, I just don't feel like grouping. Instead, I'd rather have other players around that may affect my gameplay, be it lending a heal here or there, maybe helping someone out of a sticky situation, answering questions in chat if I can, or roleplaying with a live person instead of a static NPC.
MAKING me group will have me quitting the game in a heartbeat, or rolling up new characters that can do the small solo stuff until I am bored.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I don't have an issue with a game being soloable. My issue is with how bad it scales when you group.
Most games are designed to be played solo. Adding another person to the encounter makes the game a face roll. Diablo had scaling content 12+ years ago ? you'd think by now some mmo would of found a way to make a game solo friendly but rewarded group play with harder/more challenging content without forcing them into an instance...which really is a bunch of solo players headed towards the same light.
The problem I find these days is people confuse MMO with meaning that you need to play actively in a group for it to be multiplayer, or that you arnt social if you play solo.
Being a solo player isn't about things being easier for one person to do, being a solo player is about have the ability to take on stuff that others would use a group for by yourself. Its not supposed to be easy, or for the faint of heart, but at the same time it is no indication of how social you are. I play MMOs to be social, chat with guild members, meet new people from all over, trade my wares, have a large social net work, but when it comes to my combat I like to take on the world on my own, I only have to look out for myself that way and when I can accomplish things myself that the majority of the world has to use a group for it sets me apart.
On the other side, Developers have it horribly misunderstood and instead made the worlds easier for everyone to be able to solo the majority of their games thus completely negating the accomplishment of being a solo player that was the main draw to being a soloer in MMOs of old.
Regardless of what most people think games these days arnt what I consider solo friendly anymore, yes games are made easier so that the majority can be done alone and then the end stuff requires a group, but that isn't the true art of soloing in my belief and is just a veil hiding the fact that the Devs make games around the end game grind instead of making a fully fleshed world for you to actively live in, from the bottom to the top, its a huge disadvantage to the whole leveling system MMOs seem stuck in these days, you level and leave the area meaning people need to be able to do stuff alone cause they wont have people to help later on In the games life.
I agree. Almost every MMORPG can be largely solo'ed, even if it is just for the first 20-30 levels or so. My first MMORPG FFXI you were fighting for your life at level 5 and almost forced to group at level 10, you weren't really forced to group as much as you realize that anything worth any XP will probably win a one on one fight so teaming up with others was obvious.
This is an issue on which there is an enormous culture gap between players in the genre. To me, MMOs are primarily about a shared world, not formal grouping. In fact, formal grouping is the antithesis of what an MMO means to me becasue it reduces the fluid crossing of paths to isolated pockets of forced dependancy.
Any argument that solo play is like a single-player game can be replaced with the argument that formal grouping is just a LAN party.
But in general, if I ever I find myself judging how other people are playing a game, I remind myself that it's my problem, not theirs.
Very nicely stated. Thank you for that.
I agree, definitely well said. To many people seem to want to impose their playstyle on others without taking other people into consideration. Preferences in playstyle and options are a good thing. However I think we will have World Peace before all gamers can agree to that. This whole, "my way or the highway" attitude that is so prevalent on these forums never cease to amaze me.
Imposed play style is what you get when almost all MMO's cater to a single group. It is very easy to say " play you way and I will play my way ", when almost all mmorpgs cater to your way. Maplestone is basically saying since her way is the common way, dont judge and dont argue against my way.
If someone doesnt speak up, things do not change. The problem is that if you argue for a different way, people cry that you are attacking them and not simply suggesting an alternative. Just because your way is the most commonly accepted way, that doesnt mean every argument against it is us demeaning you...
You also should take into account that in most current MMORPGS, you basically get punished for grouping. When you level faster solo due to experience being split between group mates, this is in turn enforcing your style of play.
I believe the problem is there is no real reason to group if you can solo everything. Unless you play a game from the release the chance of you running by someone on your exact quest is very rareeven if you do they hardly talk to you. The thing is they made the endgame the main focus for grouping and socializing why is anyone going to help or join lower level people the end game BS creates a rush to get through the game to get to the social aspect. There needs to be somone kind of reward system for helping lower levels or maby a system of reward for participating in quests as a party member. Because you can argue that games are social if you make them social and thats your choice to be quiet but the reality is they used to be social ad there not because thats how the games have taught players to behave. We have just adapted to not socializing and that can be changed.
Originally posted by rasiem I believe the problem is there is no real reason to group if you can solo everything.
I'm a die hard soloer but even I have to admit that I'd like to see a game have content that can only be soloed.
Once again, I like the way lineage 2 did it. There were areas that had better drops but only a group could do it and yet all that stuff could be sold to whoever would pay meaning solo players didn't have to be left out when it came to certain drops.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by rasiem I believe the problem is there is no real reason to group if you can solo everything. Unless you play a game from the release the chance of you running by someone on your exact quest is very rareeven if you do they hardly talk to you. The thing is they made the endgame the main focus for grouping and socializing why is anyone going to help or join lower level people the end game BS creates a rush to get through the game to get to the social aspect. There needs to be somone kind of reward system for helping lower levels or maby a system of reward for participating in quests as a party member. Because you can argue that games are social if you make them social and thats your choice to be quiet but the reality is they used to be social ad there not because thats how the games have taught players to behave. We have just adapted to not socializing and that can be changed.
This too. Quest design plays a large part in the way these MMO's are played
To clarify on my last post, I think solo content should be in MMORPGs. I believe the more options players have, the better. What I don't think is right is that solo players get rewarded the same as people that group. It's easy to hop on when your time permits to solo in a MMORPG. What's difficult is actually getting a group of people together, with conflicting personalities, getting them all moving towards the same objective, and the ability to keep these players together. All of that in the amount of time you have which may be a very small window. The difference between pulling off these two activities is pretty apparent, the rewards should be as well. Grouping will always be a more difficult activity to pull off. If the rewards are the same, a majority of players will play solo and this can be seen in most current MMORPGs.
TLDR;
I believe MMORPGs should have solo content, just not as an emphasis. I don't believe grouping should be forced, but the rewards for grouping should far outweigh going solo.
Comments
What lack of Multiplayer?
All these MMO's have tons of Group content! Come on now! Don't be so silly!
I am sorry, but an MMO that has Group content ONLY will be dead within a month!
Just face it! People don't want to sit and wait for a Group to come together, before they can play each and every single time they log onto the game!
Sometimes, you just want to log in, do some stuff, have some fun and log out again!
And other times, when I have more time, I go do some Group content.
It's all about CHOICE! Nothing wrong With that.
Plus! No one says you cannot Group up With someone and even do Solo content With another friend!
Yes that was very well said.
Case in point, a lot of people wrote SWToR off as a single player game. All I can say is that I did more grouping in SWToR than I ever did in, say, LOTRO.
It just happened that way. I was out in the world, people needed help, yadda, yadda, yadda, an evening was spent.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I'm surprised that TSW didn't make this list TBH - it has some really nice story elements and lots of puzzle-type play.
Overall, I personally think that it could have been better to have developed it as a solo game rather than an MMO.
I also think that, if they had been freed from the requirements of an MMO, they could have made a better combat system (IMO the combat's alrightish...but I didn't find it very engaging)
This is pretty much how I feel. Take for instance any "multiplayer" game, perhaps monopoly or checkers. Ever try to play this game solo? Probably not. That's why I feel an MMO should truly require a majority of the content or the best parts to be, you guessed it, multiplayer.
I'm all for solo content but that should be a minority in a MMO. To add to my analogy, take any single player game, such as solitaire. Just because you have a room filled with people all playing solitaire, it does not necessarily make the game multiplayer. Then again, I'm only arguing the semantics of listing a game as MMO vs MO (if there ever was such a thing)
as somebody had mentioned earlier, raids are frequently done w/o anybody ever saying a word in chat. being forced to party with some people to progress is, to a lesser extent, about the same as being forced into a guild/clan/crew/gang/etc to proceed. i don't know if being strong armed into something would be the best of ideas.
When analyzing the point of solo content in a MMO, don't forget the design considerations. These points weren't considered in the first MMO's, and it showed a poor grasp of game design:
1-Forced grouping boned new players when no other players were available.
2-Pooling of players at max level meant #1 got worse.
3-Assuming all players were competent, both socially and in gameplay prowess.
4-Assuming all players were altruistic. Whether it's League of Legends or World of Warcraft, the genre draws its share of trolls and dbags. The infestation by the scum of society also seems to be getting worse.
just because a mmo has a huge single player content does not make it a single player mmo.
when i started gaming, it was about achieving, about doing the stuff your friends could not (so far). about compling lvls or difficulties none of your mates could conquer.
that changed. people wanted a quicker approach, they got it. now they cry. sounds normal to me.
sure, you can play devil may cry on easy and think you have beaten the game. but if you never tried it on hardest setting..... you didn't realy try at all.
same goes for mmos (especially WoW).
the raidfinder is NOT endcontent. it gives the noobs a glimps into end content, the casual raiders a way to boost their items (so they can complete the harder challanges).
try setting up your own (non flex) raid and then clear dem raids again. you will find out - it's not easy at all.
"believe me, mike.. i calculated the odds of this working against the odds that i was doing something incredibly stupid and i did it anyway!"
That's odd, here I thought the phrases "every MMO" and "Look at any game you've played in recent memory" pretty much explicitly stated that ALL games are solo-able.
-------------------------------------------
Control is an illusion!
"Sure there are places that might never be seen because of the shunning of joining up with others, but that's generally small and easily overlooked by those who simply prefer to play alone."
What percentage of an MMO is raiding? Is it significant enough to warrant your post?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
+1 Thumbs Up
+1 Like
+ Agree
+1000 Internets
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Forced grouping worked great when I was in Final Fantasy 11. In all my 5 years of playing I was never in a party where no one said a word. You need people to progress which led to people acting right and it was the best community I have ever been in. Now you dont need anyone so you can say whatever you want because with group finders who cares ill never see these people again.
Sometimes, I just don't feel like grouping. Instead, I'd rather have other players around that may affect my gameplay, be it lending a heal here or there, maybe helping someone out of a sticky situation, answering questions in chat if I can, or roleplaying with a live person instead of a static NPC.
MAKING me group will have me quitting the game in a heartbeat, or rolling up new characters that can do the small solo stuff until I am bored.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I don't have an issue with a game being soloable. My issue is with how bad it scales when you group.
Most games are designed to be played solo. Adding another person to the encounter makes the game a face roll. Diablo had scaling content 12+ years ago ? you'd think by now some mmo would of found a way to make a game solo friendly but rewarded group play with harder/more challenging content without forcing them into an instance...which really is a bunch of solo players headed towards the same light.
FACT - If you make a game were all content or say nearly all content can be completed as a solo player then the Developers have failed to make a MMO.
The problem I find these days is people confuse MMO with meaning that you need to play actively in a group for it to be multiplayer, or that you arnt social if you play solo.
Being a solo player isn't about things being easier for one person to do, being a solo player is about have the ability to take on stuff that others would use a group for by yourself. Its not supposed to be easy, or for the faint of heart, but at the same time it is no indication of how social you are. I play MMOs to be social, chat with guild members, meet new people from all over, trade my wares, have a large social net work, but when it comes to my combat I like to take on the world on my own, I only have to look out for myself that way and when I can accomplish things myself that the majority of the world has to use a group for it sets me apart.
On the other side, Developers have it horribly misunderstood and instead made the worlds easier for everyone to be able to solo the majority of their games thus completely negating the accomplishment of being a solo player that was the main draw to being a soloer in MMOs of old.
Regardless of what most people think games these days arnt what I consider solo friendly anymore, yes games are made easier so that the majority can be done alone and then the end stuff requires a group, but that isn't the true art of soloing in my belief and is just a veil hiding the fact that the Devs make games around the end game grind instead of making a fully fleshed world for you to actively live in, from the bottom to the top, its a huge disadvantage to the whole leveling system MMOs seem stuck in these days, you level and leave the area meaning people need to be able to do stuff alone cause they wont have people to help later on In the games life.
Mess with the best, Die like the rest
Imposed play style is what you get when almost all MMO's cater to a single group. It is very easy to say " play you way and I will play my way ", when almost all mmorpgs cater to your way. Maplestone is basically saying since her way is the common way, dont judge and dont argue against my way.
If someone doesnt speak up, things do not change. The problem is that if you argue for a different way, people cry that you are attacking them and not simply suggesting an alternative. Just because your way is the most commonly accepted way, that doesnt mean every argument against it is us demeaning you...
1. DDO
2. EQ1
3. EQ2
I don't think any other MMO approaches what can be done by a solo player in those games. They blow everyone else away.
Now, there are a lot of fun MMOs that can be played solo, but you'll stall out on content far quicker than those 3.
I'm a die hard soloer but even I have to admit that I'd like to see a game have content that can only be soloed.
Once again, I like the way lineage 2 did it. There were areas that had better drops but only a group could do it and yet all that stuff could be sold to whoever would pay meaning solo players didn't have to be left out when it came to certain drops.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
This too. Quest design plays a large part in the way these MMO's are played
'Sigh' oh Gawd not this canard again. Let us try and be clear.... Wikipedia (and thats as good a source as any) defines a Multiplayer Video Game as...
"A multiplayer video game is a video game in which more than one person can play in the same game environment at the same time."
Nothing at all about whether you play with other gamers. If that was what was meant the acronym would be MCORPG (Massively Co-Operative Online RPGs).
The part of MMORPG which genuinely is questionable and interesting is the RPG bit - now those games are thin on the ground!
But this is just a stale re-hash of a non-issue.
To clarify on my last post, I think solo content should be in MMORPGs. I believe the more options players have, the better. What I don't think is right is that solo players get rewarded the same as people that group. It's easy to hop on when your time permits to solo in a MMORPG. What's difficult is actually getting a group of people together, with conflicting personalities, getting them all moving towards the same objective, and the ability to keep these players together. All of that in the amount of time you have which may be a very small window. The difference between pulling off these two activities is pretty apparent, the rewards should be as well. Grouping will always be a more difficult activity to pull off. If the rewards are the same, a majority of players will play solo and this can be seen in most current MMORPGs.
TLDR;
I believe MMORPGs should have solo content, just not as an emphasis. I don't believe grouping should be forced, but the rewards for grouping should far outweigh going solo.