Lets step back and go back to the biggest problem that every PVP / PK player encounters in their games.
The biggest problem that I seem to encounter is the balance.
Almost every single game out there, you have balance issues, and these issues aren't as important in PVE but its always a problem in PVP.
Every patch, every update always talks about Nerfing this , Nerfing that.
I get really tired of them, don't you all get tired of that as well.
I understand that as a healer, you want to heal in PVP, as a tank you want the same experience as a tank in PVP. But we all know that its different, we all subconsciously understand that Real players can't be encountered the same as versus the Environment with AI .
That's why I asked, what is PVP really, is being a Healer , tank , dps so important that we neglect all other possible ways of really separating PVP from PVE.
A MMA fighter when playing Football, doesn't use his takedowns, depending on what role he is during the sport, he plays according to that role. That's what I am talking about.
E-sports are popular because they are immersive to the player, they can become MVP, they can become unique and important.
But I am not stopping at just the standard Battlegrounds that we get nowadays, I am talking about expanding on the PVP.
Tournaments , who is the strongest Healer, who is the strongest tank, who is the best DPS. Tournaments. Player versus Player to see who Is the best of the best.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Lets step back and go back to the biggest problem that every PVP / PK player encounters in their games.
The biggest problem that I seem to encounter is the balance.
Almost every single game out there, you have balance issues, and these issues aren't as important in PVE but its always a problem in PVP.
Every patch, every update always talks about Nerfing this , Nerfing that.
I get really tired of them, don't you all get tired of that as well.
I understand that as a healer, you want to heal in PVP, as a tank you want the same experience as a tank in PVP. But we all know that its different, we all subconsciously understand that Real players can't be encountered the same as versus the Environment with AI .
That's why I asked, what is PVP really, is being a Healer , tank , dps so important that we neglect all other possible ways of really separating PVP from PVE.
A MMA fighter when playing Football, doesn't use his takedowns, depending on what role he is during the sport, he plays according to that role. That's what I am talking about.
E-sports are popular because they are immersive to the player, they can become MVP, they can become unique and important.
But I am not stopping at just the standard Battlegrounds that we get nowadays, I am talking about expanding on the PVP.
Tournaments , who is the strongest Healer, who is the strongest tank, who is the best DPS. Tournaments. Player versus Player to see who Is the best of the best.
The thing is, I don't want balance in OWPvP. I'd love to see me and a small army take down one skilled person.Or vice versa.
Everyone can not be equal OWPvP. IMO That's what kills OWPvP, everyone wants to have a solo viable toon. If that's the case it just turns into one big arena.
You'll never get away from balance issues entirely. Your idea of having people pick roles as they enter the arena doesn't help this issue.
And you're right in alluding to the idea that the holy trinity isn't necessary in pvp. Many games exist without having those well defined roles. However, people like having roles and it just so happens that when you try to give people certain roles, the holy trinity and derivations of it end up being the most popular/effective.
PvP is conflict between players who want to be in conflict.
PKing is conflict between players when only one side wanted a conflict.
No one wants a conflict they don't think they can win. Conflict is by definition non-consensual. Unless you are talking about real medieval dueling (which was a pretty retarded way to settle disputes).
The only thing which shouldn't ever be allowed IMO is griefing (camping spawn points or killing players vastly inferior to you in power for no real reason).
PK'ing has kind of lost it's original meaning in the mists of time. When UO first started, all playstyles were forced to play together on the same server. The wolves and the lambs all played in the same field, and the wolves dined on lamb frequently.
The lambs did not all appreciate having their happy lives randomly terminated in this way, and so the term PK'er was invented. It carried decidedly negative connotations when used by the lambs, but was something of a "badge-of-honour" in wolf society.
The terms PVP and PVE at that point in fledgling MMO history did not describe playstyles as much as ingame activies. It was only later that games became focused mainly on one or the other. It was most likely the Trammel/Felucca split in UO that cemented those terms into playstyle labels.
UO wasn't originally designed as a "PVP game" or a "PVE game", it was just a sandbox that allowed a great deal of freedom. Too much freedom for the average player, as it turned out...
Originally posted by maplestone PvP is conflict between players who want to be in conflict.PKing is conflict between players when only one side wanted a conflict.
No one wants a conflict they don't think they can win. Conflict is by definition non-consensual. Unless you are talking about real medieval dueling (which was a pretty retarded way to settle disputes).
The only thing which shouldn't ever be allowed IMO is griefing (camping spawn points or killing players vastly inferior to you in power for no real reason).
I'm glad you explained griefing in that way.... "...for no real reason." Griefing doesn't mean killing a lower level player, it means killing anybody (lower level or not) for no reason other than to be a jerk. Killing a low level miner to steal his ore is not griefing. Hunting down a member of an opposing faction or guild is not griefing.
Most people in this thread have pretty narrow definitions of what "PvP" means. Yes, it is often used as synonymous with being able to kill other players using the game's normal combat mechanics, but there's nothing wrong with what the OP is proposing (if I understand him correctly) either.
It's a technicality, but In many games, you can duel an opponent 1v1 or even in teams and win without killing them, using normal game mechanics, but few would say that isn't PvP, so it's not strictly about 'killing' (though that is still 'beating' someone with the normal game mechanics).
But, there are also games that do things similar to what the OP is talking about - for instance the competitive mini-games in GW2, or pretty soon SW:TOR has (PvP?) space battles coming out I hear; things that have player versus player direct real-time competition but with a unique set of mechanics. Several MMOs have had normal PvP on the ground and vehicular PvP with its own mechanics, etc. It's not a real stretch to call those things "PvP".
PvP is conflict between players who want to be in conflict.
PKing is conflict between players when only one side wanted a conflict.
No one wants a conflict they don't think they can win. Conflict is by definition non-consensual. Unless you are talking about real medieval dueling (which was a pretty retarded way to settle disputes).
The only thing which shouldn't ever be allowed IMO is griefing (camping spawn points or killing players vastly inferior to you in power for no real reason).
I'm glad you explained griefing in that way.... "...for no real reason." Griefing doesn't mean killing a lower level player, it means killing anybody (lower level or not) for no reason other than to be a jerk. Killing a low level miner to steal his ore is not griefing. Hunting down a member of an opposing faction or guild is not griefing.
"Griefing" has no other meaning than "causing the other player grief". It usually ends up meaning whatever you want it to mean.
In MO, some people spent a lot of time killing defenceless solo miners and then deleting the ore they looted from them.
Griefing ?
No, they said, we do it to deny ore to the enemy !
Originally posted by Holophonist Originally posted by iridescence Originally posted by maplestone PvP is conflict between players who want to be in conflict.PKing is conflict between players when only one side wanted a conflict.
No one wants a conflict they don't think they can win. Conflict is by definition non-consensual. Unless you are talking about real medieval dueling (which was a pretty retarded way to settle disputes).
The only thing which shouldn't ever be allowed IMO is griefing (camping spawn points or killing players vastly inferior to you in power for no real reason).
I'm glad you explained griefing in that way.... "...for no real reason." Griefing doesn't mean killing a lower level player, it means killing anybody (lower level or not) for no reason other than to be a jerk. Killing a low level miner to steal his ore is not griefing. Hunting down a member of an opposing faction or guild is not griefing.
"Griefing" has no other meaning than "causing the other player grief". It usually ends up meaning whatever you want it to mean.
In MO, some people spent a lot of time killing defenceless solo miners and then deleting the ore they looted from them.
Griefing ?
No, they said, we do it to deny ore to the enemy !
But those miners weren't even in a guild ?
Ah, but they could be alts !
Griefing really doesn't (or shouldn't) simply mean something that causes somebody grief. In that sense almost anything could be considered griefing. Logging into the game could be considered griefing because somebody somewhere may not want to play on a densely populated server.
That's why I'm saying it has to be based on whether or not there is a tangible benefit or motive. In other words, it's griefing when your sole intention is to cause somebody grief, not simply if they experience grief.
we all know that Griefing occurs, you have done it, I have done it, everyone once in their gaming life has done it.
Reasons can be because you had a bad day and that was the ticket to set you into a good mood. You could do it with your guild because they just happen to want to. You thought it was fun, or the opportunity just offered themselves to you. Easy kills ....etc
Griefing will happen in any game as long as there are human players. There are Jerks in Real life.
But it doesn't mean that we can't deal with it. There are many ways to deal with it, But I think the Developers are so busy balancing something that shouldn't even need balance that all the Patch notes and updates are filled with them trying with all their might balancing a class versus another class.
I am not saying that they need to be balanced, I am saying that with my method, there is no need to balance anything.
More time for Developers to focus on something else.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
we all know that Griefing occurs, you have done it, I have done it, everyone once in their gaming life has done it.Reasons can be because you had a bad day and that was the ticket to set you into a good mood. You could do it with your guild because they just happen to want to. You thought it was fun, or the opportunity just offered themselves to you. Easy kills ....etcGriefing will happen in any game as long as there are human players. There are Jerks in Real life.But it doesn't mean that we can't deal with it. There are many ways to deal with it, But I think the Developers are so busy balancing something that shouldn't even need balance that all the Patch notes and updates are filled with them trying with all their might balancing a class versus another class.I am not saying that they need to be balanced, I am saying that with my method, there is no need to balance anything.More time for Developers to focus on something else.
Your solution doesn't solve the problem of balance though. You say you can choose a role when you where the arena and then the game gives you a list of skills and sends you off. Then THOSE roles will need to be balanced.
we all know that Griefing occurs, you have done it, I have done it, everyone once in their gaming life has done it.
Reasons can be because you had a bad day and that was the ticket to set you into a good mood. You could do it with your guild because they just happen to want to. You thought it was fun, or the opportunity just offered themselves to you. Easy kills ....etc
Griefing will happen in any game as long as there are human players. There are Jerks in Real life.
But it doesn't mean that we can't deal with it. There are many ways to deal with it, But I think the Developers are so busy balancing something that shouldn't even need balance that all the Patch notes and updates are filled with them trying with all their might balancing a class versus another class.
I am not saying that they need to be balanced, I am saying that with my method, there is no need to balance anything.
More time for Developers to focus on something else.
Your solution doesn't solve the problem of balance though. You say you can choose a role when you where the arena and then the game gives you a list of skills and sends you off. Then THOSE roles will need to be balanced.
Yes, but they won't affect the PVE, and the balance won't be Healer is OP , or Tank OP, its roles that anyone can choose, therefore no one is stuck in their preset roles. You are a Healer, but when you enter an Battleground or arena, you choose to be the quarterback or defense...etc
Its strategic and the balance would be in the background, without affecting anyone's game.
Balance is when a certain Class is OP against others, therefore those that is stuck playing the other Classes have no fun, then nerfs comes in, and the Class that used to be OP now stops playing because its no longer fun for them.
to keep players playing, the Nerfing and OPing no longer affects players that much.
Will balance still required, maybe, but it won't be an outcry of I can't play my class anymore and I have spent weeks leveling it. And now its poo.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
we all know that Griefing occurs, you have done it, I have done it, everyone once in their gaming life has done it.
Reasons can be because you had a bad day and that was the ticket to set you into a good mood. You could do it with your guild because they just happen to want to. You thought it was fun, or the opportunity just offered themselves to you. Easy kills ....etc
Griefing will happen in any game as long as there are human players. There are Jerks in Real life.
But it doesn't mean that we can't deal with it. There are many ways to deal with it, But I think the Developers are so busy balancing something that shouldn't even need balance that all the Patch notes and updates are filled with them trying with all their might balancing a class versus another class.
I am not saying that they need to be balanced, I am saying that with my method, there is no need to balance anything.
More time for Developers to focus on something else.
Your solution doesn't solve the problem of balance though. You say you can choose a role when you where the arena and then the game gives you a list of skills and sends you off. Then THOSE roles will need to be balanced.
Yes, but they won't affect the PVE, and the balance won't be Healer is OP , or Tank OP, its roles that anyone can choose, therefore no one is stuck in their preset roles. You are a Healer, but when you enter an Battleground or arena, you choose to be the quarterback or defense...etc
Its strategic and the balance would be in the background, without affecting anyone's game.
Balance is when a certain Class is OP against others, therefore those that is stuck playing the other Classes have no fun, then nerfs comes in, and the Class that used to be OP now stops playing because its no longer fun for them.
to keep players playing, the Nerfing and OPing no longer affects players that much.
Will balance still required, maybe, but it won't be an outcry of I can't play my class anymore and I have spent weeks leveling it. And now its poo.
Being stuck in your roles has very little to do with how much people whine about imbalances. There are many many many many many pvp games that allow you to switch between roles with no more downtime than how long it would take to start a new match. That doesn't stop people from complaining about balance in all of these games. People will still cry "Healer OP" or "Tank OP" or whatever else.
Your method will not stop cries of imbalance and will therefore not stop developers from being forced to work on balancing and will therefore not free up their time to do other things any more than the way games are currently set up.
Most people in this thread have pretty narrow definitions of what "PvP" means. Yes, it is often used as synonymous with being able to kill other players using the game's normal combat mechanics, but there's nothing wrong with what the OP is proposing (if I understand him correctly) either.
It's a technicality, but In many games, you can duel an opponent 1v1 or even in teams and win without killing them, using normal game mechanics, but few would say that isn't PvP, so it's not strictly about 'killing' (though that is still 'beating' someone with the normal game mechanics).
But, there are also games that do things similar to what the OP is talking about - for instance the competitive mini-games in GW2, or pretty soon SW:TOR has (PvP?) space battles coming out I hear; things that have player versus player direct real-time competition but with a unique set of mechanics. Several MMOs have had normal PvP on the ground and vehicular PvP with its own mechanics, etc. It's not a real stretch to call those things "PvP".
I have no problem calling those things PvP, where I have a problem is people calling economics PvP and mini-games PvP and EVERYTHING PvP. Any kind of vaguely competitive play is not PvP, otherwise it turns PvE into PvP because players are "competing" for spawned mobs. Grouping becomes PvP because people are "competing" to get into groups. Sitting on a barstool becomes PvP because there are only a limited number of stools at the bar. It becomes ridiculous.
I'm glad you explained griefing in that way.... "...for no real reason." Griefing doesn't mean killing a lower level player, it means killing anybody (lower level or not) for no reason other than to be a jerk. Killing a low level miner to steal his ore is not griefing. Hunting down a member of an opposing faction or guild is not griefing.
I'd say it depends on the circumstances. A veteran player killing a total newbie for his little bit of ore (when the veteran can make more money per time spent doing tons of other things in the game) strikes me as griefing; The ore is definitely not the main motivation for what he's doing. On the other hand attacking an equal or stronger player just for the hell of it seems fine to me although it's better if there's some lore reason for the PvP to exist.
It is. However, PVP is often used as the OP is using it - as a shortened version of PVPcombat.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
PvP is the ability to kill other players within the normal game world, just like PvE is the ability to kill environmentals in the game world. Battlegrounds and WvWvW and arena aren't PvP, they are just their own little mini game.
What? No...
Look, you guys are making this much harder than it needs to be. PvP is player vs. player. Doesn't matter if it's open world, instanced, battleground, arena, etc. If you are fighting another gaming nerd while he's sitting at his computer, it's PvP. Period.
PvP is the ability to kill other players within the normal game world, just like PvE is the ability to kill environmentals in the game world. Battlegrounds and WvWvW and arena aren't PvP, they are just their own little mini game.
What? No...
Look, you guys are making this much harder than it needs to be. PvP is player vs. player. Doesn't matter if it's open world, instanced, battleground, arena, etc. If you are fighting another gaming nerd while he's sitting at his computer, it's PvP. Period.
No need to re-define this. It's pretty basic.
I'd open it up to "competing against" if we are talking about PVP content in general, however for the purpose of this thread, I'd say your whole post is spot on.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
PvP is the ability to kill other players within the normal game world, just like PvE is the ability to kill environmentals in the game world. Battlegrounds and WvWvW and arena aren't PvP, they are just their own little mini game.
What? No...
Look, you guys are making this much harder than it needs to be. PvP is player vs. player. Doesn't matter if it's open world, instanced, battleground, arena, etc. If you are fighting another gaming nerd while he's sitting at his computer, it's PvP. Period.
No need to re-define this. It's pretty basic.
I'd open it up to "competing against" if we are talking about PVP content in general, however for the purpose of this thread, I'd say your whole post is spot on.
PvP in MMORPGS is a cancer that needs to be removed.
PVP in MMORPGS will always cause problems and is such a waste of development resources and the constant balancing and class nerf/buffing is just a pain in the ass.
There is no need for PVP in MMORPGS. We have plenty PVP games for that. From Medieval to realistic warfare to SciFi, there are enough specialized PVP games. No need to bring that into MMORPGS.
These games already do PVP way better than any MMORPG could. Look at the joke that is Darkfall:UW. It's complete crap compared to even the free PVP games or games like Chivalry. Those are a lot more fun than the tacked on PvP like in GW2 that suffers balance issues and boring zerg gameplay.
PvP in MMORPGS is a cancer that needs to be removed.
PVP in MMORPGS will always cause problems and is such a waste of development resources and the constant balancing and class nerf/buffing is just a pain in the ass.
There is no need for PVP in MMORPGS. We have plenty PVP games for that. From Medieval to realistic warfare to SciFi, there are enough specialized PVP games. No need to bring that into MMORPGS.
These games already do PVP way better than any MMORPG could. Look at the joke that is Darkfall:UW. It's complete crap compared to even the free PVP games or games like Chivalry. Those are a lot more fun than the tacked on PvP like in GW2 that suffers balance issues and boring zerg gameplay.
It's obvious you don't care for PVP, and I agree that some MMOs have taken some poor approaches to it, but from my experience so far, I'm going to have to disagree with you on the sweeping generalization. There are a lot of examples of PVP being a great part of the MMO in one form or another, often integral to the gameplay itself. Here are a few:
WOW's battlegrounds
DAoC's keep battles and frontiers
EVE Online's piracy and sovereignty
Ultima Online's guild wars
Guild Wars*
Puzzle Pirate's Blockades
You personally may mot care for some of them or even all of them, but there's no denying that the players to whom that PVP content caters to find it an enjoyable and desirable part of their MMO experience.
*Yes, yes... it's a CORPG. I just added to see how many morons will ignore the rest of the list and fixate on this one.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
PvP in MMORPGS is a cancer that needs to be removed.
PVP in MMORPGS will always cause problems and is such a waste of development resources and the constant balancing and class nerf/buffing is just a pain in the ass.
There is no need for PVP in MMORPGS. We have plenty PVP games for that. From Medieval to realistic warfare to SciFi, there are enough specialized PVP games. No need to bring that into MMORPGS.
These games already do PVP way better than any MMORPG could. Look at the joke that is Darkfall:UW. It's complete crap compared to even the free PVP games or games like Chivalry. Those are a lot more fun than the tacked on PvP like in GW2 that suffers balance issues and boring zerg gameplay.
It's obvious you don't care for PVP, and I agree that some MMOs have taken some poor approaches to it, but from my experience so far, I'm going to have to agree with you on the sweeping generalization. There are a lot of examples of PVP being a great part of the MMO in one form or another, often integral to the gameplay itself. Here are a few:
WOW's battlegrounds
DAoC's keep battles and frontiers
EVE Online's piracy and sovereignty
Ultima Online's guild wars
Guild Wars*
Puzzle Pirate's Blockades
You personally may mot care for some of them or even all of them, but there's no denying that the players to whom that PVP content caters to find it an enjoyable and desirable part of their MMO experience.
*Yes, yes... it's a CORPG. I just added to see how many morons will ignore the rest of the list and fixate on this one.
Oh, i never said they should not enjoy it. By all means, people can enjoy whatever they want.
I am saying that it is stupid to cater to both. Do one or the other and do it right.
All your examples are valid but they all could be much better if they left out the PvE or the PvP part.
PvP is the ability to kill other players within the normal game world, just like PvE is the ability to kill environmentals in the game world. Battlegrounds and WvWvW and arena aren't PvP, they are just their own little mini game.
What? No...
Look, you guys are making this much harder than it needs to be. PvP is player vs. player. Doesn't matter if it's open world, instanced, battleground, arena, etc. If you are fighting another gaming nerd while he's sitting at his computer, it's PvP. Period.
No need to re-define this. It's pretty basic.
I'd open it up to "competing against" if we are talking about PVP content in general, however for the purpose of this thread, I'd say your whole post is spot on.
'Competing against' is far more encompassing, as a definition goes. The problem is that games have only implemented combat systems to compete against other players. How about a simple, sponsored (and monitored) race? That's great player vs player fun, either overland or instanced. And this from a PvE advocate.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
PvP in MMORPGS is a cancer that needs to be removed.
PVP in MMORPGS will always cause problems and is such a waste of development resources and the constant balancing and class nerf/buffing is just a pain in the ass.
There is no need for PVP in MMORPGS. We have plenty PVP games for that. From Medieval to realistic warfare to SciFi, there are enough specialized PVP games. No need to bring that into MMORPGS.
These games already do PVP way better than any MMORPG could. Look at the joke that is Darkfall:UW. It's complete crap compared to even the free PVP games or games like Chivalry. Those are a lot more fun than the tacked on PvP like in GW2 that suffers balance issues and boring zerg gameplay.
The only playstyle that absolutely refuses to compromise. The PVE only player.
Devs need to cater specifically to them, or /chop.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Comments
Lets step back and go back to the biggest problem that every PVP / PK player encounters in their games.
The biggest problem that I seem to encounter is the balance.
Almost every single game out there, you have balance issues, and these issues aren't as important in PVE but its always a problem in PVP.
Every patch, every update always talks about Nerfing this , Nerfing that.
I get really tired of them, don't you all get tired of that as well.
I understand that as a healer, you want to heal in PVP, as a tank you want the same experience as a tank in PVP. But we all know that its different, we all subconsciously understand that Real players can't be encountered the same as versus the Environment with AI .
That's why I asked, what is PVP really, is being a Healer , tank , dps so important that we neglect all other possible ways of really separating PVP from PVE.
A MMA fighter when playing Football, doesn't use his takedowns, depending on what role he is during the sport, he plays according to that role. That's what I am talking about.
E-sports are popular because they are immersive to the player, they can become MVP, they can become unique and important.
But I am not stopping at just the standard Battlegrounds that we get nowadays, I am talking about expanding on the PVP.
Tournaments , who is the strongest Healer, who is the strongest tank, who is the best DPS. Tournaments. Player versus Player to see who Is the best of the best.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
The thing is, I don't want balance in OWPvP. I'd love to see me and a small army take down one skilled person.Or vice versa.
Everyone can not be equal OWPvP. IMO That's what kills OWPvP, everyone wants to have a solo viable toon. If that's the case it just turns into one big arena.
I got loads of other PvP games for balance.
And you're right in alluding to the idea that the holy trinity isn't necessary in pvp. Many games exist without having those well defined roles. However, people like having roles and it just so happens that when you try to give people certain roles, the holy trinity and derivations of it end up being the most popular/effective.
No one wants a conflict they don't think they can win. Conflict is by definition non-consensual. Unless you are talking about real medieval dueling (which was a pretty retarded way to settle disputes).
The only thing which shouldn't ever be allowed IMO is griefing (camping spawn points or killing players vastly inferior to you in power for no real reason).
PK'ing has kind of lost it's original meaning in the mists of time. When UO first started, all playstyles were forced to play together on the same server. The wolves and the lambs all played in the same field, and the wolves dined on lamb frequently.
The lambs did not all appreciate having their happy lives randomly terminated in this way, and so the term PK'er was invented. It carried decidedly negative connotations when used by the lambs, but was something of a "badge-of-honour" in wolf society.
The terms PVP and PVE at that point in fledgling MMO history did not describe playstyles as much as ingame activies. It was only later that games became focused mainly on one or the other. It was most likely the Trammel/Felucca split in UO that cemented those terms into playstyle labels.
UO wasn't originally designed as a "PVP game" or a "PVE game", it was just a sandbox that allowed a great deal of freedom. Too much freedom for the average player, as it turned out...
No one wants a conflict they don't think they can win. Conflict is by definition non-consensual. Unless you are talking about real medieval dueling (which was a pretty retarded way to settle disputes).
The only thing which shouldn't ever be allowed IMO is griefing (camping spawn points or killing players vastly inferior to you in power for no real reason).
I'm glad you explained griefing in that way.... "...for no real reason." Griefing doesn't mean killing a lower level player, it means killing anybody (lower level or not) for no reason other than to be a jerk. Killing a low level miner to steal his ore is not griefing. Hunting down a member of an opposing faction or guild is not griefing.They are synomyns, might want to recheck homonym's definition!
Get a life you freaking Gamer.....no no, you don't understand, I'm a Gamer, I have many lives!!
Most people in this thread have pretty narrow definitions of what "PvP" means. Yes, it is often used as synonymous with being able to kill other players using the game's normal combat mechanics, but there's nothing wrong with what the OP is proposing (if I understand him correctly) either.
It's a technicality, but In many games, you can duel an opponent 1v1 or even in teams and win without killing them, using normal game mechanics, but few would say that isn't PvP, so it's not strictly about 'killing' (though that is still 'beating' someone with the normal game mechanics).
But, there are also games that do things similar to what the OP is talking about - for instance the competitive mini-games in GW2, or pretty soon SW:TOR has (PvP?) space battles coming out I hear; things that have player versus player direct real-time competition but with a unique set of mechanics. Several MMOs have had normal PvP on the ground and vehicular PvP with its own mechanics, etc. It's not a real stretch to call those things "PvP".
"Griefing" has no other meaning than "causing the other player grief". It usually ends up meaning whatever you want it to mean.
In MO, some people spent a lot of time killing defenceless solo miners and then deleting the ore they looted from them.
Griefing ?
No, they said, we do it to deny ore to the enemy !
But those miners weren't even in a guild ?
Ah, but they could be alts !
No one wants a conflict they don't think they can win. Conflict is by definition non-consensual. Unless you are talking about real medieval dueling (which was a pretty retarded way to settle disputes).
The only thing which shouldn't ever be allowed IMO is griefing (camping spawn points or killing players vastly inferior to you in power for no real reason).
I'm glad you explained griefing in that way.... "...for no real reason." Griefing doesn't mean killing a lower level player, it means killing anybody (lower level or not) for no reason other than to be a jerk. Killing a low level miner to steal his ore is not griefing. Hunting down a member of an opposing faction or guild is not griefing."Griefing" has no other meaning than "causing the other player grief". It usually ends up meaning whatever you want it to mean.
In MO, some people spent a lot of time killing defenceless solo miners and then deleting the ore they looted from them.
Griefing ?
No, they said, we do it to deny ore to the enemy !
But those miners weren't even in a guild ?
Ah, but they could be alts !
Griefing really doesn't (or shouldn't) simply mean something that causes somebody grief. In that sense almost anything could be considered griefing. Logging into the game could be considered griefing because somebody somewhere may not want to play on a densely populated server.That's why I'm saying it has to be based on whether or not there is a tangible benefit or motive. In other words, it's griefing when your sole intention is to cause somebody grief, not simply if they experience grief.
we all know that Griefing occurs, you have done it, I have done it, everyone once in their gaming life has done it.
Reasons can be because you had a bad day and that was the ticket to set you into a good mood. You could do it with your guild because they just happen to want to. You thought it was fun, or the opportunity just offered themselves to you. Easy kills ....etc
Griefing will happen in any game as long as there are human players. There are Jerks in Real life.
But it doesn't mean that we can't deal with it. There are many ways to deal with it, But I think the Developers are so busy balancing something that shouldn't even need balance that all the Patch notes and updates are filled with them trying with all their might balancing a class versus another class.
I am not saying that they need to be balanced, I am saying that with my method, there is no need to balance anything.
More time for Developers to focus on something else.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Your solution doesn't solve the problem of balance though. You say you can choose a role when you where the arena and then the game gives you a list of skills and sends you off. Then THOSE roles will need to be balanced.Yes, but they won't affect the PVE, and the balance won't be Healer is OP , or Tank OP, its roles that anyone can choose, therefore no one is stuck in their preset roles. You are a Healer, but when you enter an Battleground or arena, you choose to be the quarterback or defense...etc
Its strategic and the balance would be in the background, without affecting anyone's game.
Balance is when a certain Class is OP against others, therefore those that is stuck playing the other Classes have no fun, then nerfs comes in, and the Class that used to be OP now stops playing because its no longer fun for them.
to keep players playing, the Nerfing and OPing no longer affects players that much.
Will balance still required, maybe, but it won't be an outcry of I can't play my class anymore and I have spent weeks leveling it. And now its poo.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Being stuck in your roles has very little to do with how much people whine about imbalances. There are many many many many many pvp games that allow you to switch between roles with no more downtime than how long it would take to start a new match. That doesn't stop people from complaining about balance in all of these games. People will still cry "Healer OP" or "Tank OP" or whatever else.
Your method will not stop cries of imbalance and will therefore not stop developers from being forced to work on balancing and will therefore not free up their time to do other things any more than the way games are currently set up.
I have no problem calling those things PvP, where I have a problem is people calling economics PvP and mini-games PvP and EVERYTHING PvP. Any kind of vaguely competitive play is not PvP, otherwise it turns PvE into PvP because players are "competing" for spawned mobs. Grouping becomes PvP because people are "competing" to get into groups. Sitting on a barstool becomes PvP because there are only a limited number of stools at the bar. It becomes ridiculous.
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I'd say it depends on the circumstances. A veteran player killing a total newbie for his little bit of ore (when the veteran can make more money per time spent doing tons of other things in the game) strikes me as griefing; The ore is definitely not the main motivation for what he's doing. On the other hand attacking an equal or stronger player just for the hell of it seems fine to me although it's better if there's some lore reason for the PvP to exist.
It is. However, PVP is often used as the OP is using it - as a shortened version of PVP combat.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
What? No...
Look, you guys are making this much harder than it needs to be. PvP is player vs. player. Doesn't matter if it's open world, instanced, battleground, arena, etc. If you are fighting another gaming nerd while he's sitting at his computer, it's PvP. Period.
No need to re-define this. It's pretty basic.
I'd open it up to "competing against" if we are talking about PVP content in general, however for the purpose of this thread, I'd say your whole post is spot on.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Yeah, I'd agree with "competing against."
PvP in MMORPGS is a cancer that needs to be removed.
PVP in MMORPGS will always cause problems and is such a waste of development resources and the constant balancing and class nerf/buffing is just a pain in the ass.
There is no need for PVP in MMORPGS. We have plenty PVP games for that. From Medieval to realistic warfare to SciFi, there are enough specialized PVP games. No need to bring that into MMORPGS.
These games already do PVP way better than any MMORPG could. Look at the joke that is Darkfall:UW. It's complete crap compared to even the free PVP games or games like Chivalry. Those are a lot more fun than the tacked on PvP like in GW2 that suffers balance issues and boring zerg gameplay.
It's obvious you don't care for PVP, and I agree that some MMOs have taken some poor approaches to it, but from my experience so far, I'm going to have to disagree with you on the sweeping generalization. There are a lot of examples of PVP being a great part of the MMO in one form or another, often integral to the gameplay itself. Here are a few:
You personally may mot care for some of them or even all of them, but there's no denying that the players to whom that PVP content caters to find it an enjoyable and desirable part of their MMO experience.
*Yes, yes... it's a CORPG. I just added to see how many morons will ignore the rest of the list and fixate on this one.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Oh, i never said they should not enjoy it. By all means, people can enjoy whatever they want.
I am saying that it is stupid to cater to both. Do one or the other and do it right.
All your examples are valid but they all could be much better if they left out the PvE or the PvP part.
'Competing against' is far more encompassing, as a definition goes. The problem is that games have only implemented combat systems to compete against other players. How about a simple, sponsored (and monitored) race? That's great player vs player fun, either overland or instanced. And this from a PvE advocate.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
The only playstyle that absolutely refuses to compromise. The PVE only player.
Devs need to cater specifically to them, or /chop.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"