I agree that the MMO(RPG) genre is in a dismal state...
... with more players than it ever had. Yep, dismal seems to be the proper word to describe it.
(/sarcasm)
Quality, not quantity.
And who are you to define what "quality" is for other people?
Not to mention many forgot what messes the releases of UO, EQ and AC1 were... quality, yeah... what quality?
What's funny is that I've been playing MMORPGs since UO, and forums have always been the same... full of a minority of very vocal whiners who are never happy. You guys act like this only started recently, but you have long term memory problems if you really believe that.
I don't have to define what quality is for anyone. That was not my point and I made no value judgement about the quality of any game. I merely implied that just because a game has a lot of players, doesn't make it a good game. This was based on the person's post quoted in my response.
Hint: If you follow the entire thread, it's really easy to understand what is going on and what people are saying. Just a suggestion.
Sadly, a decade ago, I dare say that most game devs didn't consider themselves as a "business" and gamers didn't consider themselves as "customers". It was like a club.
That was the best times I've ever had playing MMOs.
I think this was a time before Game Masters became in-game customer service.
The writing was on the wall and nobody saw it.
Richard Garriott sat down in a video interview a few years back and explained their mindset with UO. It was an experiment in whether such a game could become a business was his general explanation. They didn't think it would amount to much at all, as in their eyes they didn't create much of a game. They didn't expect players to create their own game in the way they did. Very interesting interview actually. If I find a link to it I'll post it. From there the industry grew into a business (in the west). I wouldn't be surprised if EQ was approached in the same manner by Verant (SOE) as well.
Most early games were an experiment in some shape or form, as the genre was in it's infancy at the time. For that reason alone it would be fitting to engage the players a bit more. Back then there were a lot more live events where GM's took the role of monsters or other baddies, there was a lot more forum engagement from the developers. It was a completely different atmosphere, coming from both sides.
It was also telling on what was sustainable from a business perspective. One thing that seemingly wasn't was the live teams of the time. It's a completely different beast today focusing almost exclusively on quality of life issues. Is that a surprise though? not for me. There has always been a lot to deal with in that department.
So you're right in a sense. Yet I'd argue you can still find that around the genre, but it's mostly coming from indies and kickstarts like SC or CU.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Not making your customers happy in the long run is the worst thing you can do for your company.
They make some customers happy....you just happen to be one of the ones they didn't.
Exactly. But as long we're judging on artistic merit, while corporations are searching for something that makes money, we're never going to see the world exactly the same.
Welcome to the working world of commercial artists, every single damn day ever.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I actually like Virtual Worlds (though I think many game versions are less than spectacular). It's also great for everyone to have a game style that they like to play. The continual moaning about back in the old days when everything was 'good' does get a bit tedious though. Boils down to 'the way I play is the best way' in way too many arguments.
It's fine to like a particular old school style, but to overlook the many problems, issues, and design screwups of these games is a bit disingenuous. Tons of people quit these old games (or decided to not play them in the first place) because of these game issues.
Perhaps there will be a upsurge of games with old school features. Given that most MMO development takes 4-5 years, it is not the sort of thing that will show up overnight. And if you all don't support those that do strongly, even if they have elements you don't particularly care for, they may fail. It's a much more crowded game field right now. The narrower your focus on what elements you consider acceptable, the less likely you are to find 'that' game.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Originally posted by Acebets70 Can someone please post the Iraq PR guy saying "everything is fine " "all games are great now" ROFL sheep
What exactly makes those having fun with these games "sheep"? Is this one of those "if you don't like what I like, you're a sheep" types of things; because you're the end all be all when it comes to what's hip?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
There is not a single word of the OP that I disagree with.
MMO are no longer worlds full of danger to get lost in, they are kid-themed theme parks where everything is lazily handed to you.
I have rekindled my love of good single player games, sure they are more lonely, but at least a gem is released a couple times a year, it has been almost a decade since a truly great MMO was released.
I don't think it's over, but I also don't think Everquest Next is going to be the savior that many people are hoping for. Here's why . . .
Reasons to believe that Everquest Next is not the savior, but actually the spawn of World of Warcraft & Minecraft combined
Easy fast travel with no restrictions (revealed today)
Multi-classing with no race restrictions
Cartoon characters with even bigger weapons and armor than anything we've seen before
Now with guns and ninjas
Development videos show 1 player killing hundreds of zerging mobs
"Heroic" everything - word is used to describe everything from shitting to placing minecraft bricks.
Nuclear special effects that induce seizures and actually blind the user on their own computer screen
Everything with Everquest Next just oozes that SOE wants to not only copy what's been done before - they want to take it to a place that even the craziest teenybopper, rainbow-sparkle-shitting instant gratification instant end-game, casual crowd couldn't even imagine in their wildest wet dreams. Please don't pin your hopes on this game. I don't want anyone to become suicidal when they see the final product.
Reasons to believe that old-school MMO's aren't completely dead:
Isometric RPG's were suppose to be dead - Wasteland 2, Project Eternity, Planescape Torment are funded
Space Sims are suppose to be dead - Star Citizen, Elite Dangerous & more funded
Adventure games are suppose to be dead - Double Fine Adventure, Broken Sword, Dreamfall & more funded
Project 1999 and other emulated servers are doing extremely well (huge populations considering obscurity)
Just because we haven't seen any old-school MMO's show up on kickstarter doesn't mean it won't happen soon. The free market has a tendency to correct itself within time. There is a huge demand for this type of game. Just because the AAA publishers aren't in touch with the market, doesn't mean that smaller developers are not. I'm willing to bet that a smaller developer will spearhead a traditional, hardcore game with good graphics and mature, contemporary game mechanics. I'm also willing to bet that a game like this will explode onto the market like Star Citizen has.
Conclusion:
I want to see these assholes (those who have been ignoring the classic MMORPG) collectively lose their shit when they realize that they've lost "the race" of the last 10 years to a tiny independent developer that's crowd-funded. Seeing their faces as they realize that Wildstar-sparkle-shits-WoW-2.0 isn't going to be "the one" that they hope it is, would be priceless. That'll be a day to celebrate. And I predict that day isn't too far off.
TLDR: Don't count on EQnext but don't lose hope in the genre
That's why many of us hate the way these games are going they're over all less appealing in every aspect in comparison to their older counterparts.
Sure the grind was "tedious" but that's what made these games popular to begin with. Now companies remove the grind and just stream-line to the end. There's no achievement in these games, everyone's a winner, and every has the same gear. Sure you might of had to spend 5-10 hours farming for some of the most epic pieces of gear as you were leveling. But it was actually worth it when you actually obtained that said item. I can't say I have the same feeling with newer games.
Today, these games are simply completed within the first month of their release. These new titles can't properly handle the rate in which people are finishing them (a major design flaw with modern MMOs). So in turn they don't have enough time to produce new content which in turn causes the game to "fail". Due to the fact that they don't properly retain a large enough audience the development of the game is dropped for a new product and the cycle being a new.
Yeah, I think the biggest difference is that a lot of people used to play games to have fun in the game, whatever rewards you got were cool but not more important than enjoying the game itself. I don't really know what changed (I have some theories...) but somehow loot and power became the whole *point *of games to a lot of people, even games which are not supposed to really end and be "beatable". When you are *only* playing the game for the rewards anything standing between you and those rewards becomes "tedium" and "grind". A lot of what some people class as grind I would just class as "gameplay" and "part of the experience.
I really think we need more different types of MMOs for different types of MMO players. This "one size fits all" thing just isn't working anymore (if it ever did).
i agree with you the UO days are gone this game generation today sux there spoiled arogant rude pricks mean selfish and more i have not found a good community for a few years now and i find myselfon the councel more and more serching for older audult gammers to play with
Easy fast travel with no restrictions (revealed today)
TLDR: Don't count on EQnext but don't lose hope
Jesus christ. Fuck this game it just keeps getting worse and worse.
I see this as a good thing. I don't want restrictions on my travel. I want the choice to get there fast or to take my time depending on my mood.
No one is ever in the mood to take their time, that's one lesson past MMOs must teach us. If you allow an easier path it will always be followed.
For some reason when i read that i immediately thought of WoW...
Sadly i totally agree with you, are players lazy, or just jaded?
No people are just smart. Why would u take the hard path trough mountains with trolls and orcs. if there is a shorter gold brick road in wich you hop trough a bunny field. If the goal is to reach location B you will hop trough the bunny field.
People who go chalange the mountain of orcs are just dumbasses. i doubt alot of people would do that.
Now if you have 2 dangerous paths people will still follow the least dangerous path. But it will be a chalange by default.
What im saying is if you have the option to port you will port. Not because we want to port. but why would you not if you can.
edit: somethign like flypaths or stagecoaches are perfectly fine. it will still take time to travel and it wont bring you to your location you still have to venture into the open to where u wanted to go. (aka not too much points just a couple major and minor cities) Just not teleporting. Teleporting is an extremely powerfull skill wich should not be mastered in mmo's imo
I suppose if people are fine with garbage then I really can't change their minds.
They're not fine with it. That's why these "games of the future" are so empty after the first 30-60 days after their release. They abandon their own games...the they screamed for. lol And not just 1 or 2, but virtually every game since 2003.
Well people in this forum seem to think different about these games of the future, apparently they like these games.
But, why do they abandon their games so quickly? If they're so great and all.
Who says they're empty ? Just because people on this forum want to label a game dead doesn't mean it's dead.
I play tera, a game "most" people here will call crap, fail, dead etc, etc. It's full of people...everywhere. As a DPS I wait about 5-10 minutes for a lfg. Anywhere I go there are people playing, lvling...doing things. Guilds are active, alliance chat is active. People raid, pvp....the game it as alive as any mmo I've ever played
but ask anyone here and TERA is a dead fail mmo. So who's wrong ? the people playing or the people posting. Someone has to be.
TERA is one of the most expensive MMORPGs of all times. And it got one of the most boring limited endgames in the history of MMORPGs. The fighting system and graphics are nice, but the game is getting boring really fast if you don't enjoy grinding the same instance over and over for 100s of times to get that gear set.
So yeah business wise and content wise it's a failure - IMHO. It still got its good points that can make it fun for a while.
Just curious, for how long do you play it? You are not annoyed by the constant pvp team imbalances caused by the broken instance finder? Or the lack of things to do in the endgame? Will repeating the same 2 balance problem ridden BGs or the single decent pve instance be enough to keep you playing for longer then 1-2 months?
Easy fast travel with no restrictions (revealed today)
TLDR: Don't count on EQnext but don't lose hope
Jesus christ. Fuck this game it just keeps getting worse and worse.
I see this as a good thing. I don't want restrictions on my travel. I want the choice to get there fast or to take my time depending on my mood.
No one is ever in the mood to take their time, that's one lesson past MMOs must teach us. If you allow an easier path it will always be followed.
More often than not when I watch someone play Skyrim it's far more normal to see them running around the world, than it is to see them porting all over it.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Comments
They make some customers happy....you just happen to be one of the ones they didn't.
I don't have to define what quality is for anyone. That was not my point and I made no value judgement about the quality of any game. I merely implied that just because a game has a lot of players, doesn't make it a good game. This was based on the person's post quoted in my response.
Hint: If you follow the entire thread, it's really easy to understand what is going on and what people are saying. Just a suggestion.
Because people have a need to complain about things until their last dying breath.
If they can add blaming someone else for their disappointments, then...BONUS!
Richard Garriott sat down in a video interview a few years back and explained their mindset with UO. It was an experiment in whether such a game could become a business was his general explanation. They didn't think it would amount to much at all, as in their eyes they didn't create much of a game. They didn't expect players to create their own game in the way they did. Very interesting interview actually. If I find a link to it I'll post it. From there the industry grew into a business (in the west). I wouldn't be surprised if EQ was approached in the same manner by Verant (SOE) as well.
Most early games were an experiment in some shape or form, as the genre was in it's infancy at the time. For that reason alone it would be fitting to engage the players a bit more. Back then there were a lot more live events where GM's took the role of monsters or other baddies, there was a lot more forum engagement from the developers. It was a completely different atmosphere, coming from both sides.
It was also telling on what was sustainable from a business perspective. One thing that seemingly wasn't was the live teams of the time. It's a completely different beast today focusing almost exclusively on quality of life issues. Is that a surprise though? not for me. There has always been a lot to deal with in that department.
So you're right in a sense. Yet I'd argue you can still find that around the genre, but it's mostly coming from indies and kickstarts like SC or CU.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Haha, so true. Sad,...but true
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
Exactly. But as long we're judging on artistic merit, while corporations are searching for something that makes money, we're never going to see the world exactly the same.
Welcome to the working world of commercial artists, every single damn day ever.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
You guys only need one more for a circle.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
I actually like Virtual Worlds (though I think many game versions are less than spectacular). It's also great for everyone to have a game style that they like to play. The continual moaning about back in the old days when everything was 'good' does get a bit tedious though. Boils down to 'the way I play is the best way' in way too many arguments.
It's fine to like a particular old school style, but to overlook the many problems, issues, and design screwups of these games is a bit disingenuous. Tons of people quit these old games (or decided to not play them in the first place) because of these game issues.
Perhaps there will be a upsurge of games with old school features. Given that most MMO development takes 4-5 years, it is not the sort of thing that will show up overnight. And if you all don't support those that do strongly, even if they have elements you don't particularly care for, they may fail. It's a much more crowded game field right now. The narrower your focus on what elements you consider acceptable, the less likely you are to find 'that' game.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
What exactly makes those having fun with these games "sheep"? Is this one of those "if you don't like what I like, you're a sheep" types of things; because you're the end all be all when it comes to what's hip?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Totally agree.
2014 the mmo world looks like its going to change for the better.
2015 all the crowd innovative funded games are coming out,this year is just depressing.
THERE IS HOPE!
I don't think it's over, but I also don't think Everquest Next is going to be the savior that many people are hoping for. Here's why . . .
Reasons to believe that Everquest Next is not the savior, but actually the spawn of World of Warcraft & Minecraft combined
Yeah, I think the biggest difference is that a lot of people used to play games to have fun in the game, whatever rewards you got were cool but not more important than enjoying the game itself. I don't really know what changed (I have some theories...) but somehow loot and power became the whole *point *of games to a lot of people, even games which are not supposed to really end and be "beatable". When you are *only* playing the game for the rewards anything standing between you and those rewards becomes "tedium" and "grind". A lot of what some people class as grind I would just class as "gameplay" and "part of the experience.
I really think we need more different types of MMOs for different types of MMO players. This "one size fits all" thing just isn't working anymore (if it ever did).
Jesus christ. Fuck this game it just keeps getting worse and worse.
I see this as a good thing. I don't want restrictions on my travel. I want the choice to get there fast or to take my time depending on my mood.
I want my virtual world to actually feel like a world. Not a box I teleport around in.
No one is ever in the mood to take their time, that's one lesson past MMOs must teach us. If you allow an easier path it will always be followed.
For some reason when i read that i immediately thought of WoW...
Sadly i totally agree with you, are players lazy, or just jaded?
No people are just smart. Why would u take the hard path trough mountains with trolls and orcs. if there is a shorter gold brick road in wich you hop trough a bunny field. If the goal is to reach location B you will hop trough the bunny field.
People who go chalange the mountain of orcs are just dumbasses. i doubt alot of people would do that.
Now if you have 2 dangerous paths people will still follow the least dangerous path. But it will be a chalange by default.
What im saying is if you have the option to port you will port. Not because we want to port. but why would you not if you can.
edit: somethign like flypaths or stagecoaches are perfectly fine. it will still take time to travel and it wont bring you to your location you still have to venture into the open to where u wanted to go. (aka not too much points just a couple major and minor cities) Just not teleporting. Teleporting is an extremely powerfull skill wich should not be mastered in mmo's imo
TERA is one of the most expensive MMORPGs of all times. And it got one of the most boring limited endgames in the history of MMORPGs. The fighting system and graphics are nice, but the game is getting boring really fast if you don't enjoy grinding the same instance over and over for 100s of times to get that gear set.
So yeah business wise and content wise it's a failure - IMHO. It still got its good points that can make it fun for a while.
Just curious, for how long do you play it? You are not annoyed by the constant pvp team imbalances caused by the broken instance finder? Or the lack of things to do in the endgame? Will repeating the same 2 balance problem ridden BGs or the single decent pve instance be enough to keep you playing for longer then 1-2 months?
More often than not when I watch someone play Skyrim it's far more normal to see them running around the world, than it is to see them porting all over it.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Fully agree with OP, even i think im younger than him i feel the same things.
But maybe there is hope on the horizon/out already games worth a look i think:
(Time will tell if those games worth the time to play)
-Everquest Next
Eldelscrolls Online
-WildStar
-Monster Hunter Online
-Blade and Soul
-Titan
-Archage Online
Thereisnospoon.