Free 2 Win - A game like Rift could be considered free 2 win. Money is useless in terms of player power. You could argue not having all the souls available limits your power, but in reality it doesnt because there are tons of competitive builds without them
Sub 2 Win - EQ1/EQ2/Vanguard are good examples of this. Free players are at a power disadvantage that ges entirely away by subbing. In EQ2's case that difference is minor now, in EQ1 its much greater due to AA limits
Pure Pay 2 Win - player power is determined by amount of money spent, not flat rates like sub 2 win. Generlly these games require massive amounts of money to be competitive high end
Sub2AlmostWin - aka the LOTRO model. Where a subscription isnt quite good enough but its not too outrageous past that
The problem is definition of win, by rule there can only be one definition so taking your subjectivity out of it is important.
I have become an endgame progression raider or player in almost every MMO I have played that offers such opportunities.
These sentences ... you put one right after the other, but you didn't stop to think that "endgame progression raider" creates as subjective definition of "winning"?
depend on the game xp potions can and can not be a p2w, if a game require you to grind over 5 hours to lvl a certain lvl but with a xp potion or premium you just need 1 hour or less then its pay to win
pay to win is mostly things will make your char be stronger or forces you hard to spend if not the game can't be enjoyed, the ones I know and I remember right now are DDO(sorry op buying tomes who gives +5 on stats is pay to win, also limiting part of the game is annoying) SWtor, most if not all chinese games (yes paying for higher chance to lvl gear is pay to win).
but the worse problem is the players, they know the game is pay to win but as long he can pay and keep on top echelon of his server he don't care till he find someone more stupid to spend even more then him then he start to cry and quit the game saying its pay to win, would be so easy for the whole genre if plyers just stoped playing or at least paying for this kind of game or at least limit his paying to 15 a month, doing so would show the devs they can't milk players with garbage and would force then to up they games.
1) buying exp pots cannot be considered buying POWER, the maximum potential is never increased. What is decreased is the amount of time to obtain this, however if the TIME required to obtain said power is not fun, there lies a problem within the mentality of the gamer or the game itself. You should ENJOY playing the game.
2) As far as DDO goes, I haven't played in about 6-12 months, however the whole time I did play (from beta until recent) the tomes available on the store were NEVER more powerful, and almost always less powerful by at least 1 tier than the lootable items. So given that, a player who spends $0 extra could still be the maximum potential power achievable in game. When it comes to "limiting part of the game" that is them charging for content not power. Thousands of man hours went into those zones, it is perfectly acceptable for them to require payment.
3) "Most if not all Chinese games" Be more specific please, but If you are talking about asian imports with gear upgrade systems like TERA or Age of Wushu, then these (definitely not AoW) are not p2w. You can farm everything required, as a matter of fact I had so much currency on my account from legit crafting that I was accidentally banned in AoW so you can't tell me that its p2w because I was the #1 ranked poisonmaker on my server...
4) You talk about paying to keep on the top echelon of a server. Please give a specific endgame instance of pvp or pve content in a game where paying can win top echelon content? It always comes down to planning, player skill, and group coordination skill in "top echelon"
I said chinese tera is korean and most of time the korean grind is not annoying to me, I liked more Aion and RFonline, RFonline is the top of how a dev kills his own game with a f2p, everything to upgrade and even heal pot (who heal more and have less CD and RF if you played you know its a POT fest) is paid, age of wushu wasn't pay to win when it started but like most games it is becoming one now by selling skills you can only obtain from CS and the game is almost annoying to play if you don't have premium, I know I play there and without premium you are locked on several things, the system tera and aion use now are not much annoying and from aion I feel little diference.
also take note when I say upgrade system its like the one in Shin Megami Tensei, Padora saga and Ayka(the ones I remember on top of my head now) and to keep here RFonline, what happen on these? they sell a helper in CS who raise the chance to upgrade and you need these to upgrade anything pass +4 if not you will fail like 50% chance to fail and if failed the gear is lost but with the helper you get a extra 30% and normally anything past +6 is impossible(or you like the upgrade chance of dot something %) and on top of helper you have a prevent gear breaking to use together so in case it fail(and even with the helper it will) prevent the gear from being lost the gyst is that item is lost failing or not to upgrade.
and i'm not even mentioning the CS lotery who you spend real money for a chacne to get something who can be a marvelous item would help you damn life in game but most of time is just garbage with little or even no value.
Originally posted by tommygunzII How many of these games can you win without paying anything? Excluding P2P.
You expect developers to all line up to give 100% of the game out for free with no restrictions and hope they can get enough money off of selling funny hats to keep the lights on?
I have heard EQ2 called P2W because you can't equip high level gear without buying items off the cash shop. That's absurd if you ask me. It's a business model decision not a game play decision to close off parts of the game to people unless they pay. Your not buying advantage your buying access.
What is pay 2 win is when those costs are not well disclosed up front to consumers. Random item boxes with unique powerful gear and endless + stat crafting bonuses that require increasingly expensive cash shop items to make are examples of pay 2 win. if a company wants to give me a free trial to play the lower levels and ask that I either subscribe or take part in the cash shop in order to play higher level parts of the game I have no issue with that as long as it's disclosed up front and the costs are clearly laid out.
Wait a moment, you say that you don't care about endgame, check. You say that the most relevant part of the game is the entire leveling, check. So buying an experience potion to speed through that part, you find to be paying to win somehow? Wouldn't that be pay to lose by your own understanding?
And if you are talking about buying gear, my argument holds true for that as well. There is always better dropped gear for the level than purchased gear for leveling off cash shops. The cash shops usually provide you with a good-but-not-best convenience option so you don't have to worry about gear while leveling. You know, so that you don't have to begin min-maxing until *gasp* endgame.
i dont buy Experience potions because i dont rush while leveling. But if the leveling is absurdly slow on purpose to make people buy exp pots, i would buy some to relieve the grind a little bit, and still not rushing it to get the most exp out the timed effect. Im not against exp pots but i dont need them in the slightest. Exp pots dont give power, just speed of leveling anyway.
The fact that they still sell low lvl gear in the cash shop makes it pay to win. Why? because anyone who doesnt buy that gear around that level required is doomed to not engage in open world pvp unless they dont mind always losing 1v1. And always be less efficient in pve around those levels. Dont forget that In mmorpgs where the gear determines your potential, you are less efficient than everyone else if they can buy better gear with money. ITs still crappy gear because it isnt high level. But its till good gear for the level in question. Better than most gear youll get around that level unless its a boss drop.
I said it in another thread before and ill say it again. My point is that people need to be very careful with what they accept as a cash shop item. Companies are in this business mainly for the money now. Accepting gear with power (instead of just skins) in the cash shop already shows them we dont care if they sell power. The more time we waste defending this behavior the more power they will sell. Slowly increasing the amount and the intensity of the "power" they sell. And a few years down the road when we demand they stop their greedy practices they will have all the winning case because we have accepted it as the norm for a long time.
To me that isn't necessarily p2w. If their goal is to get to max level, and they bought their way there, well at that level they can't do anything I can't so it's not p2w.
It doesn't matter how the advantage relates to other players. That is an entirely separate matter that is related to fairness, and there really would be no set way to quantify this aspect. In fact, the only relevance it even has to P2W is whether or not a player continues to play a game.
The only part that matters is if the item you bought increases your ability to achieve your goal, and this is the design principles of the microtransaction model.
Originally posted by udon Originally posted by tommygunzIIHow many of these games can you win without paying anything? Excluding P2P.
You expect developers to all line up to give 100% of the game out for free with no restrictions and hope they can get enough money off of selling funny hats to keep the lights on?
I have heard EQ2 called P2W because you can't equip high level gear without buying items off the cash shop. That's absurd if you ask me. It's a business model decision not a game play decision to close off parts of the game to people unless they pay. Your not buying advantage your buying access.
What is pay 2 win is when those costs are not well disclosed up front to consumers. Random item boxes with unique powerful gear and endless + stat crafting bonuses that require increasingly expensive cash shop items to make are examples of pay 2 win. if a company wants to give me a free trial to play the lower levels and ask that I either subscribe or take part in the cash shop in order to play higher level parts of the game I have no issue with that as long as it's disclosed up front and the costs are clearly laid out.
Honestly that is where forums should come in. If only they weren't filled with the level of crap you have to wade through in order to get core game info.
Which is partly why discussions such as this one that define the base terms we use to describe a game are important. If every game is P2W then it distorts the definition for the possible new player. Prospective players should check out the various forums/review sites for any pertinent game info rather than the publisher for any game they plan to spend the many hours most MMOs demand.
'Day one' players that do no research get what they get I suppose.
In my opinion, for a game to be considered PAY TO WIN, the MAXIMUM potential of your character must be allowed to be raised in a way that is NOT obtainable through in-game means
You have a pretty loose interpretation of what it means though. I fully understand people calling Diablo 3 ptw when I could drop $20 and have gear that is better than a player could reasonable obtain solo in 300 hours of gameplay. If you can buy gear that is difficult to obtain I'd still probably call a game ptw.
You also have to consider that very few games have released as FTP or BTP. A game that used to cost money to buy and then charge a subscription that later went FTP is a very different beast and is going to have a very different version of a cash shop. These games were built with the understanding that they were going to bring in income at a certain level and their cash shops tend to be less forgiving because of it.
Originally posted by 123443211234 Any cash shop that sells ANYTHING that gives one player an in game advantage over another player would mean the game is P2W. Now of course there are many different levels of what can be sold and just how badly P2W is in any one game, but the fact is you still bought an advantage that another player didn't.
Yes. We would all agree with that.
The trouble is we don't agree on what is an advantage.
I don't think leveling faster is an advantage because at any particular level they can't do anything more or better than other. Other people say they are.
I personaly define advantage as if someone is the same level (and preferably the same class/skills for easy comparison) as me can they do something I can't or be more efficient in whatever they are doing then me because of something they bought that is not available to me in the game at that level.
His statement is just semi incorrect. It isn't whether or not the advantage is over another player, but if the advantage helps a player achieve their goal.
To me that isn't necessarily p2w. If their goal is to get to max level, and they bought their way there, well at that level they can't do anything I can't so it's not p2w.
Plus the fact that this entire thread is about being able to buy your way to something that cannot be achieved in-game at all. Everyone can get to endgame. Paying just gets you there faster. It doesn't get you anything that you couldn't achieve by just playing the game.
Originally posted by tommygunzII How many of these games can you win without paying anything? Excluding P2P.
You expect developers to all line up to give 100% of the game out for free with no restrictions and hope they can get enough money off of selling funny hats to keep the lights on?
I have heard EQ2 called P2W because you can't equip high level gear without buying items off the cash shop. That's absurd if you ask me. It's a business model decision not a game play decision to close off parts of the game to people unless they pay. Your not buying advantage your buying access.
What is pay 2 win is when those costs are not well disclosed up front to consumers. Random item boxes with unique powerful gear and endless + stat crafting bonuses that require increasingly expensive cash shop items to make are examples of pay 2 win. if a company wants to give me a free trial to play the lower levels and ask that I either subscribe or take part in the cash shop in order to play higher level parts of the game I have no issue with that as long as it's disclosed up front and the costs are clearly laid out.
you are confusing 2 different things. Free2Play restrictions in a hybrid model are OK if they are done right. Selling power is not right no matter how restricted or unrestricted your game is.
You mention EQ2 high level gear restriction. The same happened in Swtor and Vanguard. I am totally OK when that restriction ONLY if i can purchase an account wide cash shop unlock so i can wear that gear. I dont think any of them sell that so i only play (played) those games for a little bit knowing when i need that gear i wont be able to use it so i quit and they missed my money, unfortunately. Cash shop can be done right, they can restrict the free players but they need to know how to do it in a way that they entice people to use the cash shop to lift the restrictions, or encourage them to subscribe with enough perks or content.
I dont think Random gambling boxes are pay to win because nobody knows what they will get. With that said, they are the most straight forward scam a game can have.
Originally posted by tommygunzII How many of these games can you win without paying anything? Excluding P2P.
All of them if your point in playing the game is to enjoy the content and not be a dick-waving moron. I don't compete with anyone in a game, I don't care what anyone else has, I don't care what anyone else can do, I just play the game and have a good time and don't spend a red cent in a F2P game. There is no pay-to-win if you're not a hyper-competitive dick.
I'll agree that the AAA MMO's you've listed don't really contain P2W as I would define it. I did run into it one time when playing Runes of Magic but that seems to be the case in some of these 2nd tier F2P titles which need to maximize their revenue streams.
I can see how some folks might think EVE's PLEX are pay to win, but they really have very little impact on who wins vs who loses in the greater scheme of things, who controls the marketplace or the best moons is a far greater factor.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
In my opinion, for a game to be considered PAY TO WIN, the MAXIMUM potential of your character must be allowed to be raised in a way that is NOT obtainable through in-game means.
Pay to win is a personal definition
to me, experience potions are not p2w but to others, they are
Just to support your claim.
For me, they are.
However, it depends on the type of game. For instance, in most recent themeparks, they really do not represent P2W considering that the whole levelling process takes days or weeks max.
In games where the levelling process is longer, they are definitely P2W, for me as they provide players with significant advantage over others.
So the answer to the OP:
For you, P2W does not exist in AAA MMOs and I respect that. However, I expect you to respect that for me, it does exist.
What advantage does a player levelling faster than you have? That doesn't really make sense to me. All that will happen is that other player will see content first.
I respect your opinion, but the OP's point of view makes more sense when looked at objectively. If you can obtain the same exact level of power without spending a dime, when a paying player simply attains it faster, then P2W is not present.
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To me that isn't necessarily p2w. If their goal is to get to max level, and they bought their way there, well at that level they can't do anything I can't so it's not p2w.
It doesn't matter how the advantage relates to other players. That is an entirely separate matter that is related to fairness, and there really would be no set way to quantify this aspect. In fact, the only relevance it even has to P2W is whether or not a player continues to play a game.
The only part that matters is if the item you bought increases your ability to achieve your goal, and this is the design principles of the microtransaction model.
Once again, to me that is not p2w. To me your goal is largely irrelvant to p2w. In order to p2w you have to win which means someone else has to lose. This direcly implies an advantage.
If my goal is to get their quicker, I have no advantage. I did not win anything.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Pretty much any Asian f2p is p2w from what I have seen. Then again, not many Asian MMO's are AAA except for Final Fantasy (insertnumberhere). Of course that isn't a f2p game, so there you go.
In Planetside 1, I would say it couldn't possibly be considered as P2W. Faction-specific weapons aside, everyone had the same stuff, and everyone earned by playing. The higher your battle rank, the better weapons & vehicles you could unlock. There was also a cap; no one player could have the best of everything, no matter how long you'd played.
But in Planetside 2, you can have the best of everything on day 1. Just open your wallet.
I respect your opinion, but the OP's point of view makes more sense when looked at objectively. If you can obtain the same exact level of power without spending a dime, when a paying player simply attains it faster, then P2W is not present.
And power is not relevant in winning in pve games. There is no winning. In fact, it is a good thing if a more powerful player join your group for an instance dungeon.
In my opinion, for a game to be considered PAY TO WIN, the MAXIMUM potential of your character must be allowed to be raised in a way that is NOT obtainable through in-game means.
Pay to win is a personal definition
to me, experience potions are not p2w but to others, they are
Just to support your claim.
For me, they are.
However, it depends on the type of game. For instance, in most recent themeparks, they really do not represent P2W considering that the whole levelling process takes days or weeks max.
In games where the levelling process is longer, they are definitely P2W, for me as they provide players with significant advantage over others.
So the answer to the OP:
For you, P2W does not exist in AAA MMOs and I respect that. However, I expect you to respect that for me, it does exist.
What advantage does a player levelling faster than you have? That doesn't really make sense to me. All that will happen is that other player will see content first.
I respect your opinion, but the OP's point of view makes more sense when looked at objectively. If you can obtain the same exact level of power without spending a dime, when a paying player simply attains it faster, then P2W is not present.
Well in a game where levelling process takes a year and the main point of the game is territory control, sieges, or generally PvP objectives, an alliance of players who pay for experience boost get a very significant advantage over those that dont pay, dont they?
In pure PVE game, it probably would not apply as the only advantage would be, as you correctly stated, seeing content first (I dont count world first achievements as they are not important for me, but I can imagine that for some people, they are so important that even such scenario would mean P2W to them).
I am not arguing with you. Just trying to explain my opinion better.
I can understand that point. But I do not know of any game where that is the case. Not to mention it would take a more than ordinary commitment from the players and a large amount of money to hold an advantage in that scenario. But even then, it is only temporary, as without paying a dime, you can attain the same level of in-game power.
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In my opinion, for a game to be considered PAY TO WIN, the MAXIMUM potential of your character must be allowed to be raised in a way that is NOT obtainable through in-game means.
Pay to win is a personal definition
to me, experience potions are not p2w but to others, they are
It's not really a personal definition, this guy (one of the few) actually understand what P2W really means. Remember like 6-8 years ago where being able to buy OP gear/stuff that wasn't obtainable by just playing was a really common practice? Anyone who says otherwise clearly never played a P2W game and are just mad that some people can pay to progress faster.
Anyone who says otherwise clearly never played a P2W game and are just mad that some people can pay to progress faster.
If people dislike something, they are going to search around for a term to apply to it. If you don't want them using P2W, then offer them an alternative term ... perhaps "pay to accelerate"?
The problem I run into with these arguments is that they seem like variations of the same idea to me. Even if I ignore the various concepts of winning and focus only on gear curves, most MMOs have a soft cap on gear where there are rarer and rarer tiers with no practical way to obtain perfect gear ... so a hard "best gear available through item shop" and a soft "item shop lets you accelerate further up the treadmill" are functionally identical to everyone but the most extreme of hardcore players. I understand that may make for a qualitiative difference for these players, but I think they need to equally realize that it makes *no* difference to most players.
Anyone who says otherwise clearly never played a P2W game and are just mad that some people can pay to progress faster.
If people dislike something, they are going to search around for a term to apply to it. If you don't want them using P2W, then offer them an alternative term ... perhaps "pay to accelerate"?
The problem I run into with these arguments is that they seem like variations of the same idea to me. Even if I ignore the various concepts of winning and focus only on gear curves, most MMOs have a soft cap on gear where there are rarer and rarer tiers with no practical way to obtain perfect gear ... so a hard "best gear available through item shop" and a soft "item shop lets you accelerate further up the treadmill" are functionally identical to everyone but the most extreme of hardcore players. I understand that may make for a qualitiative difference for these players, but I think they need to equally realize that it makes *no* difference to most players.
I disagree generally with this. The pay 2 accelerate no problem though
I do think most people mark a difference, a significant difference between best gear available through item shop and item shop lets you accelerate up the treadmill. I do think to most people it is not about how fast it takes you as they recognize that some do it in weeks and others take it in years.
Especially because in most games when you are at max level it still takes time to get the gear. So accelerating to max level is pointless when you still need to put in the time at max level. They feel that buying the gear avoids having to run the dungeons, whereas they really don't care about the journey to the end game.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Yup, I regret my use of of the term "most players". My bad, I don't have stats to back up such a claim ... it's purely subjective perception which is biased by my personal surroundings.
Originally posted by tommygunzII How many of these games can you win without paying anything? Excluding P2P.
You expect developers to all line up to give 100% of the game out for free with no restrictions and hope they can get enough money off of selling funny hats to keep the lights on?
I have heard EQ2 called P2W because you can't equip high level gear without buying items off the cash shop. That's absurd if you ask me. It's a business model decision not a game play decision to close off parts of the game to people unless they pay. Your not buying advantage your buying access.
What is pay 2 win is when those costs are not well disclosed up front to consumers. Random item boxes with unique powerful gear and endless + stat crafting bonuses that require increasingly expensive cash shop items to make are examples of pay 2 win. if a company wants to give me a free trial to play the lower levels and ask that I either subscribe or take part in the cash shop in order to play higher level parts of the game I have no issue with that as long as it's disclosed up front and the costs are clearly laid out.
you are confusing 2 different things. Free2Play restrictions in a hybrid model are OK if they are done right. Selling power is not right no matter how restricted or unrestricted your game is.
You mention EQ2 high level gear restriction. The same happened in Swtor and Vanguard. I am totally OK when that restriction ONLY if i can purchase an account wide cash shop unlock so i can wear that gear. I dont think any of them sell that so i only play (played) those games for a little bit knowing when i need that gear i wont be able to use it so i quit and they missed my money, unfortunately. Cash shop can be done right, they can restrict the free players but they need to know how to do it in a way that they entice people to use the cash shop to lift the restrictions, or encourage them to subscribe with enough perks or content.
I dont think Random gambling boxes are pay to win because nobody knows what they will get. With that said, they are the most straight forward scam a game can have.
Edited a typo...
All three games you mention offer that in the form of a subscription. The subscription in all three games completely removes the need for the cash shop other than for fluff. I subscribe to EQ2 and have not purchased a single item out of the cash shop other than for fluff and even at that they give me way more station cash each month than I speed so I actually end up having a fairly large amount of cash shop currency saved up if there ever is something I want or for other SOE games like PS2.
Here is what I will saw about EQ2. My personal opinion is that expansions should be included with the cost of the subscription. Old expansions are but the most current one never is. I have always felt it's double dipping to both charge people for expansions and ongoing subscription fees for a MMO. That might have worked a few years ago but I really think it's a turn off in todays game landscape.
Comments
I see four different styles:
Free 2 Win - A game like Rift could be considered free 2 win. Money is useless in terms of player power. You could argue not having all the souls available limits your power, but in reality it doesnt because there are tons of competitive builds without them
Sub 2 Win - EQ1/EQ2/Vanguard are good examples of this. Free players are at a power disadvantage that ges entirely away by subbing. In EQ2's case that difference is minor now, in EQ1 its much greater due to AA limits
Pure Pay 2 Win - player power is determined by amount of money spent, not flat rates like sub 2 win. Generlly these games require massive amounts of money to be competitive high end
Sub2AlmostWin - aka the LOTRO model. Where a subscription isnt quite good enough but its not too outrageous past that
These sentences ... you put one right after the other, but you didn't stop to think that "endgame progression raider" creates as subjective definition of "winning"?
I said chinese tera is korean and most of time the korean grind is not annoying to me, I liked more Aion and RFonline, RFonline is the top of how a dev kills his own game with a f2p, everything to upgrade and even heal pot (who heal more and have less CD and RF if you played you know its a POT fest) is paid, age of wushu wasn't pay to win when it started but like most games it is becoming one now by selling skills you can only obtain from CS and the game is almost annoying to play if you don't have premium, I know I play there and without premium you are locked on several things, the system tera and aion use now are not much annoying and from aion I feel little diference.
also take note when I say upgrade system its like the one in Shin Megami Tensei, Padora saga and Ayka(the ones I remember on top of my head now) and to keep here RFonline, what happen on these? they sell a helper in CS who raise the chance to upgrade and you need these to upgrade anything pass +4 if not you will fail like 50% chance to fail and if failed the gear is lost but with the helper you get a extra 30% and normally anything past +6 is impossible(or you like the upgrade chance of dot something %) and on top of helper you have a prevent gear breaking to use together so in case it fail(and even with the helper it will) prevent the gear from being lost the gyst is that item is lost failing or not to upgrade.
and i'm not even mentioning the CS lotery who you spend real money for a chacne to get something who can be a marvelous item would help you damn life in game but most of time is just garbage with little or even no value.
You expect developers to all line up to give 100% of the game out for free with no restrictions and hope they can get enough money off of selling funny hats to keep the lights on?
I have heard EQ2 called P2W because you can't equip high level gear without buying items off the cash shop. That's absurd if you ask me. It's a business model decision not a game play decision to close off parts of the game to people unless they pay. Your not buying advantage your buying access.
What is pay 2 win is when those costs are not well disclosed up front to consumers. Random item boxes with unique powerful gear and endless + stat crafting bonuses that require increasingly expensive cash shop items to make are examples of pay 2 win. if a company wants to give me a free trial to play the lower levels and ask that I either subscribe or take part in the cash shop in order to play higher level parts of the game I have no issue with that as long as it's disclosed up front and the costs are clearly laid out.
i dont buy Experience potions because i dont rush while leveling. But if the leveling is absurdly slow on purpose to make people buy exp pots, i would buy some to relieve the grind a little bit, and still not rushing it to get the most exp out the timed effect. Im not against exp pots but i dont need them in the slightest. Exp pots dont give power, just speed of leveling anyway.
The fact that they still sell low lvl gear in the cash shop makes it pay to win. Why? because anyone who doesnt buy that gear around that level required is doomed to not engage in open world pvp unless they dont mind always losing 1v1. And always be less efficient in pve around those levels. Dont forget that In mmorpgs where the gear determines your potential, you are less efficient than everyone else if they can buy better gear with money. ITs still crappy gear because it isnt high level. But its till good gear for the level in question. Better than most gear youll get around that level unless its a boss drop.
I said it in another thread before and ill say it again. My point is that people need to be very careful with what they accept as a cash shop item. Companies are in this business mainly for the money now. Accepting gear with power (instead of just skins) in the cash shop already shows them we dont care if they sell power. The more time we waste defending this behavior the more power they will sell. Slowly increasing the amount and the intensity of the "power" they sell. And a few years down the road when we demand they stop their greedy practices they will have all the winning case because we have accepted it as the norm for a long time.
It doesn't matter how the advantage relates to other players. That is an entirely separate matter that is related to fairness, and there really would be no set way to quantify this aspect. In fact, the only relevance it even has to P2W is whether or not a player continues to play a game.
The only part that matters is if the item you bought increases your ability to achieve your goal, and this is the design principles of the microtransaction model.
I have heard EQ2 called P2W because you can't equip high level gear without buying items off the cash shop. That's absurd if you ask me. It's a business model decision not a game play decision to close off parts of the game to people unless they pay. Your not buying advantage your buying access.
What is pay 2 win is when those costs are not well disclosed up front to consumers. Random item boxes with unique powerful gear and endless + stat crafting bonuses that require increasingly expensive cash shop items to make are examples of pay 2 win. if a company wants to give me a free trial to play the lower levels and ask that I either subscribe or take part in the cash shop in order to play higher level parts of the game I have no issue with that as long as it's disclosed up front and the costs are clearly laid out.
Honestly that is where forums should come in. If only they weren't filled with the level of crap you have to wade through in order to get core game info.
Which is partly why discussions such as this one that define the base terms we use to describe a game are important. If every game is P2W then it distorts the definition for the possible new player. Prospective players should check out the various forums/review sites for any pertinent game info rather than the publisher for any game they plan to spend the many hours most MMOs demand.
'Day one' players that do no research get what they get I suppose.
You have a pretty loose interpretation of what it means though. I fully understand people calling Diablo 3 ptw when I could drop $20 and have gear that is better than a player could reasonable obtain solo in 300 hours of gameplay. If you can buy gear that is difficult to obtain I'd still probably call a game ptw.
You also have to consider that very few games have released as FTP or BTP. A game that used to cost money to buy and then charge a subscription that later went FTP is a very different beast and is going to have a very different version of a cash shop. These games were built with the understanding that they were going to bring in income at a certain level and their cash shops tend to be less forgiving because of it.
Plus the fact that this entire thread is about being able to buy your way to something that cannot be achieved in-game at all. Everyone can get to endgame. Paying just gets you there faster. It doesn't get you anything that you couldn't achieve by just playing the game.
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you are confusing 2 different things. Free2Play restrictions in a hybrid model are OK if they are done right. Selling power is not right no matter how restricted or unrestricted your game is.
You mention EQ2 high level gear restriction. The same happened in Swtor and Vanguard. I am totally OK when that restriction ONLY if i can purchase an account wide cash shop unlock so i can wear that gear. I dont think any of them sell that so i only play (played) those games for a little bit knowing when i need that gear i wont be able to use it so i quit and they missed my money, unfortunately. Cash shop can be done right, they can restrict the free players but they need to know how to do it in a way that they entice people to use the cash shop to lift the restrictions, or encourage them to subscribe with enough perks or content.
I dont think Random gambling boxes are pay to win because nobody knows what they will get. With that said, they are the most straight forward scam a game can have.
Edited a typo...
All of them if your point in playing the game is to enjoy the content and not be a dick-waving moron. I don't compete with anyone in a game, I don't care what anyone else has, I don't care what anyone else can do, I just play the game and have a good time and don't spend a red cent in a F2P game. There is no pay-to-win if you're not a hyper-competitive dick.
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I'll agree that the AAA MMO's you've listed don't really contain P2W as I would define it. I did run into it one time when playing Runes of Magic but that seems to be the case in some of these 2nd tier F2P titles which need to maximize their revenue streams.
I can see how some folks might think EVE's PLEX are pay to win, but they really have very little impact on who wins vs who loses in the greater scheme of things, who controls the marketplace or the best moons is a far greater factor.
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What advantage does a player levelling faster than you have? That doesn't really make sense to me. All that will happen is that other player will see content first.
I respect your opinion, but the OP's point of view makes more sense when looked at objectively. If you can obtain the same exact level of power without spending a dime, when a paying player simply attains it faster, then P2W is not present.
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Once again, to me that is not p2w. To me your goal is largely irrelvant to p2w. In order to p2w you have to win which means someone else has to lose. This direcly implies an advantage.
If my goal is to get their quicker, I have no advantage. I did not win anything.
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In Planetside 1, I would say it couldn't possibly be considered as P2W. Faction-specific weapons aside, everyone had the same stuff, and everyone earned by playing. The higher your battle rank, the better weapons & vehicles you could unlock. There was also a cap; no one player could have the best of everything, no matter how long you'd played.
But in Planetside 2, you can have the best of everything on day 1. Just open your wallet.
This is not P2W?
And power is not relevant in winning in pve games. There is no winning. In fact, it is a good thing if a more powerful player join your group for an instance dungeon.
I can understand that point. But I do not know of any game where that is the case. Not to mention it would take a more than ordinary commitment from the players and a large amount of money to hold an advantage in that scenario. But even then, it is only temporary, as without paying a dime, you can attain the same level of in-game power.
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It's not really a personal definition, this guy (one of the few) actually understand what P2W really means. Remember like 6-8 years ago where being able to buy OP gear/stuff that wasn't obtainable by just playing was a really common practice? Anyone who says otherwise clearly never played a P2W game and are just mad that some people can pay to progress faster.
If people dislike something, they are going to search around for a term to apply to it. If you don't want them using P2W, then offer them an alternative term ... perhaps "pay to accelerate"?
The problem I run into with these arguments is that they seem like variations of the same idea to me. Even if I ignore the various concepts of winning and focus only on gear curves, most MMOs have a soft cap on gear where there are rarer and rarer tiers with no practical way to obtain perfect gear ... so a hard "best gear available through item shop" and a soft "item shop lets you accelerate further up the treadmill" are functionally identical to everyone but the most extreme of hardcore players. I understand that may make for a qualitiative difference for these players, but I think they need to equally realize that it makes *no* difference to most players.I disagree generally with this. The pay 2 accelerate no problem though
I do think most people mark a difference, a significant difference between best gear available through item shop and item shop lets you accelerate up the treadmill. I do think to most people it is not about how fast it takes you as they recognize that some do it in weeks and others take it in years.
Especially because in most games when you are at max level it still takes time to get the gear. So accelerating to max level is pointless when you still need to put in the time at max level. They feel that buying the gear avoids having to run the dungeons, whereas they really don't care about the journey to the end game.
All three games you mention offer that in the form of a subscription. The subscription in all three games completely removes the need for the cash shop other than for fluff. I subscribe to EQ2 and have not purchased a single item out of the cash shop other than for fluff and even at that they give me way more station cash each month than I speed so I actually end up having a fairly large amount of cash shop currency saved up if there ever is something I want or for other SOE games like PS2.
Here is what I will saw about EQ2. My personal opinion is that expansions should be included with the cost of the subscription. Old expansions are but the most current one never is. I have always felt it's double dipping to both charge people for expansions and ongoing subscription fees for a MMO. That might have worked a few years ago but I really think it's a turn off in todays game landscape.