Originally posted by monochrome19 Wow... the "logic" some of you are using is so... idk if theres a word for it. Its just REALLY REALLY REALLY bad. Instancing does NOT destroy the community, nor does it make the world smaller (in most cases), and if your so uptight having a temporary invisible partition between you and uninvolved people kills your "immersion" its nobodies fault but your own. There are 100s of other reasons but my God you people are insatiable. Have a Snickers, your not yourself when your hungry.
You've obviously never played a noninstanced MMO. Those "uninvolved" people aren't uninvolved just because they aren't in your group. They may become a part of your group. You may talk to them, trade with them, rez them, clash with them. It's all a part of the social experience.
Theres a shit load of data and articles from decades of online games written by very VERY smart developers discussing exactly what leads towards community forming in games and what hurts it. Virtually everyone agrees instancing hurts, for reasons that have been clearly explained here by people with many years of MMO experience. You saying "nuh uh" isn't going to make that go away.
Originally posted by monochrome19 Wow... the "logic" some of you are using is so... idk if theres a word for it. Its just REALLY REALLY REALLY bad. Instancing does NOT destroy the community, nor does it make the world smaller (in most cases), and if your so uptight having a temporary invisible partition between you and uninvolved people kills your "immersion" its nobodies fault but your own. There are 100s of other reasons but my God you people are insatiable. Have a Snickers, your not yourself when your hungry.
You've obviously never played a noninstanced MMO. Those "uninvolved" people aren't uninvolved just because they aren't in your group. They may become a part of your group. You may talk to them, trade with them, rez them, clash with them. It's all a part of the social experience.
Theres a shit load of data and articles from decades of online games written by very VERY smart developers discussing exactly what leads towards community forming in games and what hurts it. Virtually everyone agrees instancing hurts, for reasons that have been clearly explained here by people with many years of MMO experience. You saying "nuh uh" isn't going to make that go away.
Can you link a few of those articles you are referring to?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
There seems to be some assumptions that "Instances" and "Looking for Group with instant teleportation" are the same thing. They are not. Even before instances, even before video games, people formed cliques and did things with people they enjoyed to be around.
And in noninstanced games, those cliques still interact with other people, forming a cohesive community. In games that reward cliques, soloing, and anti social behavior, guess what, no community forms.
And no, many people are discussing INSTANCING, not dungeon finders.
Originally posted by monochrome19 Wow... the "logic" some of you are using is so... idk if theres a word for it. Its just REALLY REALLY REALLY bad. Instancing does NOT destroy the community, nor does it make the world smaller (in most cases), and if your so uptight having a temporary invisible partition between you and uninvolved people kills your "immersion" its nobodies fault but your own. There are 100s of other reasons but my God you people are insatiable. Have a Snickers, your not yourself when your hungry.
You've obviously never played a noninstanced MMO. Those "uninvolved" people aren't uninvolved just because they aren't in your group. They may become a part of your group. You may talk to them, trade with them, rez them, clash with them. It's all a part of the social experience.
Theres a shit load of data and articles from decades of online games written by very VERY smart developers discussing exactly what leads towards community forming in games and what hurts it. Virtually everyone agrees instancing hurts, for reasons that have been clearly explained here by people with many years of MMO experience. You saying "nuh uh" isn't going to make that go away.
Can you link a few of those articles you are referring to?
IMO it comes down to grief. Some people love it. See any MMORPG PvP scenario. If there are shared resources, like say, an open world dungeon with bosses that people can fight over, take from each other, camp, etc, there's an opportunity for grief, and some people love being able to inflict grief.
I don't see open world dungeons as being any kind of positive social thing, but some do. A bunch of people camping mob spawns for hours isn't my idea of a "good" social thing.
I see no real positives to an open world dungeon at all, really. I think some people might want a way to more easily camp a boss or something. Who knows. But if you're going to have significant loot then IMO it's best to put it in an instance where people have to exert some kind of effort and there's limiting factors (needing to reset and rerun the whole instance) on farming the hell out of the content.
Ultimately I would like to see options (throughout all of gameplay). Instances for people like me who want a more intimate dungeon clear (just my group, without seeing anybody else or having anybody else taint the experience) and open world areas with challenges, like zones of "elite" content that requires groups akin to the classic dungeon zones of EQLive (crushbone, unrest, etc) - zones where you really should be grouped and where there's huge potential for total carnage as people try to fight/stay in the zone.
No matter how you slice it, one thing I'm sick of is the majority of content being solo easy mode. MMORPGs are supposed to be about grouping, and ideally involve some degree of challenge. Solo content designed for the least common denominator is extremely boring and weak (as epitomized by FFXIV).
Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.
Instancing might not make the world smaller, I didntsay it did. I said it ruins the feeling of a huge world. Zones need to be fenced by mountains or invisible walls. The world feels empty because everyone is in their own private instance very often. SWTOR is the worse offender in this way.
Originally posted by monochrome19 Wow... the "logic" some of you are using is so... idk if theres a word for it. Its just REALLY REALLY REALLY bad. Instancing does NOT destroy the community, nor does it make the world smaller (in most cases), and if your so uptight having a temporary invisible partition between you and uninvolved people kills your "immersion" its nobodies fault but your own. There are 100s of other reasons but my God you people are insatiable. Have a Snickers, your not yourself when your hungry.
You've obviously never played a noninstanced MMO. Those "uninvolved" people aren't uninvolved just because they aren't in your group. They may become a part of your group. You may talk to them, trade with them, rez them, clash with them. It's all a part of the social experience.
Theres a shit load of data and articles from decades of online games written by very VERY smart developers discussing exactly what leads towards community forming in games and what hurts it. Virtually everyone agrees instancing hurts, for reasons that have been clearly explained here by people with many years of MMO experience. You saying "nuh uh" isn't going to make that go away.
Can you link a few of those articles you are referring to?
But the whole post, listing a number of things that lead to community building, are in his original post.
Where, in either one of those links, did you get that Raph says instancing hurts the social experience? In one link,"instancing" or "instance" never even shows up in the text anywhere.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
IMO it comes down to grief. Some people love it. See any MMORPG PvP scenario. If there are shared resources, like say, an open world dungeon with bosses that people can fight over, take from each other, camp, etc, there's an opportunity for grief, and some people love being able to inflict grief.
I don't see open world dungeons as being any kind of positive social thing
Jesus christ, when are people going to realize that public dungeons IS NOT THE SAME AS FIGHTING FOR RESOURCES.
All my memories of public dungeons are about people helping one another and talking and sharing, never once did I get griefed. I'm sorry that so many of you have this weird inability to understand that not all Pre WoW MMOs were identical to EverQuest.
Originally posted by monochrome19 Wow... the "logic" some of you are using is so... idk if theres a word for it. Its just REALLY REALLY REALLY bad. Instancing does NOT destroy the community, nor does it make the world smaller (in most cases), and if your so uptight having a temporary invisible partition between you and uninvolved people kills your "immersion" its nobodies fault but your own. There are 100s of other reasons but my God you people are insatiable. Have a Snickers, your not yourself when your hungry.
You've obviously never played a noninstanced MMO. Those "uninvolved" people aren't uninvolved just because they aren't in your group. They may become a part of your group. You may talk to them, trade with them, rez them, clash with them. It's all a part of the social experience.
Theres a shit load of data and articles from decades of online games written by very VERY smart developers discussing exactly what leads towards community forming in games and what hurts it. Virtually everyone agrees instancing hurts, for reasons that have been clearly explained here by people with many years of MMO experience. You saying "nuh uh" isn't going to make that go away.
Can you link a few of those articles you are referring to?
But the whole post, listing a number of things that lead to community building, are in his original post.
Where, in either one of those links, did you get that Raph says instancing hurts the social experience? In one link,"instancing" or "instance" never even shows up in the text anywhere.
If you actually read the links, instead of looking for one word in a massive body of text, you'd understand.
I think the problem is not the instance, but how the instance is used that breaks the game. I think back to 2004 - 2005 when WOW came out ... if you wanted to run a dungeon you had to go there .. (Ahh the challenge of getting to Scarlet Monistary with no flight paths from Stormwind). I can recall my guild at the time doing that as a guild many times.
I think that the Dungeon Finder makes the players more lazy. All they have to do is sit in one place .. click and wait. I think that is when Imersion stops ... when you do not have to work at getting there.
If you did not have instaces and got rid of camping the mob from EQ ... what do you have as a system for dungeons and getting better loot at that level?
Originally posted by monochrome19 Wow... the "logic" some of you are using is so... idk if theres a word for it. Its just REALLY REALLY REALLY bad. Instancing does NOT destroy the community, nor does it make the world smaller (in most cases), and if your so uptight having a temporary invisible partition between you and uninvolved people kills your "immersion" its nobodies fault but your own. There are 100s of other reasons but my God you people are insatiable. Have a Snickers, your not yourself when your hungry.
You've obviously never played a noninstanced MMO. Those "uninvolved" people aren't uninvolved just because they aren't in your group. They may become a part of your group. You may talk to them, trade with them, rez them, clash with them. It's all a part of the social experience.
Theres a shit load of data and articles from decades of online games written by very VERY smart developers discussing exactly what leads towards community forming in games and what hurts it. Virtually everyone agrees instancing hurts, for reasons that have been clearly explained here by people with many years of MMO experience. You saying "nuh uh" isn't going to make that go away.
Would you like to know what TRULY kills community? DFs, RFs, Anything "Finders"!
Instancing does not stop you from socializing. I've never not talked to someone because i was in an instance, going to an instance, etc... All instancing does is allow multiple groups of people to participate in something at the same time without negatively infringing on each other.
Group Finders however are a little different. They encourage you to sit in cities and wait for your que to pop, not explore the world, and not ask that cool Paladin over there,
I think the problem is not the instance, but how the instance is used that breaks the game. I think back to 2004 - 2005 when WOW came out ... if you wanted to run a dungeon you had to go there .. (Ahh the challenge of getting to Scarlet Monistary with no flight paths from Stormwind). I can recall my guild at the time doing that as a guild many times.
I think that the Dungeon Finder makes the players more lazy. All they have to do is sit in one place .. click and wait. I think that is when Imersion stops ... when you do not have to work at getting there.
If you did not have instaces and got rid of camping the mob from EQ ... what do you have as a system for dungeons and getting better loot at that level?
Originally posted by monochrome19 Wow... the "logic" some of you are using is so... idk if theres a word for it. Its just REALLY REALLY REALLY bad. Instancing does NOT destroy the community, nor does it make the world smaller (in most cases), and if your so uptight having a temporary invisible partition between you and uninvolved people kills your "immersion" its nobodies fault but your own. There are 100s of other reasons but my God you people are insatiable. Have a Snickers, your not yourself when your hungry.
You've obviously never played a noninstanced MMO. Those "uninvolved" people aren't uninvolved just because they aren't in your group. They may become a part of your group. You may talk to them, trade with them, rez them, clash with them. It's all a part of the social experience.
Theres a shit load of data and articles from decades of online games written by very VERY smart developers discussing exactly what leads towards community forming in games and what hurts it. Virtually everyone agrees instancing hurts, for reasons that have been clearly explained here by people with many years of MMO experience. You saying "nuh uh" isn't going to make that go away.
Would you like to know what TRULY kills community? DFs, RFs, Anything "Finders"!
Instancing does not stop you from socializing.
Yes, it does. How can you talk to people you can't see? How can you help other groups you can't see?
IMO it comes down to grief. Some people love it. See any MMORPG PvP scenario. If there are shared resources, like say, an open world dungeon with bosses that people can fight over, take from each other, camp, etc, there's an opportunity for grief, and some people love being able to inflict grief.
I don't see open world dungeons as being any kind of positive social thing
Jesus christ, when are people going to realize that public dungeons IS NOT THE SAME AS FIGHTING FOR RESOURCES.
All my memories of public dungeons are about people helping one another and talking and sharing, never once did I get griefed. I'm sorry that so many of you have this weird inability to understand that not all Pre WoW MMOs were identical to EverQuest.
I think anyone else that has ever played MMOs with public dungeons in a PVP environment would say that you got extremely lucky. While I found that to be a good part of my experience in UO, EVE, AC and several other MMOs with public dungeons, I also distinctly remember (fondly, for me, but not so much for some others) PK raids (UO), kill stealing of bosses (AC), ninja looting (EVE) and other such interactions that a lot of people found undesirable or at least far from 'helping and sharing'.
This view helps to explain a lot of your other posts in this thread.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Without misery, how good can things feel? What do I mean? If you never experience grief, frustration, failure, pain, discomfort, etc, how do you measure just how good an accomplishment is. This is only one aspect to my anti-instancing opinion, but it's a good one for me. It helped me understand why it was that I liked games like EQ where you had to spawn camp, or try to steal that kill to get credit.
I just did a quest line last night in Pirate 101 with a couple other players where the main battles were all instanced. The number of mobs and their difficulty level was tailored to the size and level of our group members. Lots of fun travel together with plenty of challenging battles.
Oddly, despite the complete absence of anyone killstealing, ninja looting, PKing, blocking, griefing, tagging, training or creating any other sources of frustration or failure for our group, we all had a great time.
It didn't just feel good. It felt great.
I look forward to logging in tonight, meeting up with a couple people and having a similar experience. I am quite sure it will feel great tonight, too.
I hope that someday you can eventually experience the feeling of a good gaming session without needing misery to do so, so that such an experience is no longer a mystifying concept to you.
I was out RVRing with my guildmates on my DAOC freeshard and I managed to steal the killspam for about 6 kills, PK'd the heck out of some high realm rank Albs that ran up on our zerg, and did it again when they came back. Afterwards I ran over to the Alb frontiers and gray ganked some lowbies who suddenly had a very bad evening.
Sometimes I'm on the receiving end of the same, and it's exactly the sort of game play I look for. Hopefully one day you'll come to experience such and the concept will no longer be mystifying to you either.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by monochrome19 Wow... the "logic" some of you are using is so... idk if theres a word for it. Its just REALLY REALLY REALLY bad. Instancing does NOT destroy the community, nor does it make the world smaller (in most cases), and if your so uptight having a temporary invisible partition between you and uninvolved people kills your "immersion" its nobodies fault but your own. There are 100s of other reasons but my God you people are insatiable. Have a Snickers, your not yourself when your hungry.
You've obviously never played a noninstanced MMO. Those "uninvolved" people aren't uninvolved just because they aren't in your group. They may become a part of your group. You may talk to them, trade with them, rez them, clash with them. It's all a part of the social experience.
Theres a shit load of data and articles from decades of online games written by very VERY smart developers discussing exactly what leads towards community forming in games and what hurts it. Virtually everyone agrees instancing hurts, for reasons that have been clearly explained here by people with many years of MMO experience. You saying "nuh uh" isn't going to make that go away.
Would you like to know what TRULY kills community? DFs, RFs, Anything "Finders"!
Instancing does not stop you from socializing.
Yes, it does. How can you talk to people you can't see? How can you help other groups you can't see?
There's this thing called chat that was recently implemented... idk if you've heard of it but it allows you to talk to people no matter where you both are... so yeah... /sarcasm off
And if I'm in a dungeon I already have a group of friends/party members. I already have people to socialize with and cooperate with. There is no need for another group of people to be here to trivialize the experience.
There's this thing called chat that was recently implemented... idk if you've heard of it but it allows you to talk to people no matter where you both are... so yeah... /sarcasm off
And if I'm in a dungeon I already have a group of friends/party members. I already have people to socialize with and cooperate with. There is no need for another group of people to be here to trivialize the experience.
If you haven't noticed he's quite clearly stated that if at any time you are not talking to everyone in the game the whole community comes crashing down. ( ha, yes I exaggerated but it was implied )
You can't even have a private conversation with your friends, or the community is going to suffer.
Do you really want to argue with a guy that thinks a group of friends playing an mmo together is a bad thing ? Extreme views are rarely founded in rational beliefs.
Originally posted by monochrome19 Wow... the "logic" some of you are using is so... idk if theres a word for it. Its just REALLY REALLY REALLY bad. Instancing does NOT destroy the community, nor does it make the world smaller (in most cases), and if your so uptight having a temporary invisible partition between you and uninvolved people kills your "immersion" its nobodies fault but your own. There are 100s of other reasons but my God you people are insatiable. Have a Snickers, your not yourself when your hungry.
You've obviously never played a noninstanced MMO. Those "uninvolved" people aren't uninvolved just because they aren't in your group. They may become a part of your group. You may talk to them, trade with them, rez them, clash with them. It's all a part of the social experience.
Theres a shit load of data and articles from decades of online games written by very VERY smart developers discussing exactly what leads towards community forming in games and what hurts it. Virtually everyone agrees instancing hurts, for reasons that have been clearly explained here by people with many years of MMO experience. You saying "nuh uh" isn't going to make that go away.
Would you like to know what TRULY kills community? DFs, RFs, Anything "Finders"!
Instancing does not stop you from socializing.
Yes, it does. How can you talk to people you can't see? How can you help other groups you can't see?
There's this thing called chat that was recently implemented... idk if you've heard of it but it allows you to talk to people no matter where you both are... so yeah... /sarcasm off
And if I'm in a dungeon I already have a group of friends/party members. I already have people to socialize with and cooperate with. There is no need for another group of people to be here to trivialize the experience.
Ladies and gentlemen, I can offer no further proof beyond the postings of this person that instances destroy socializing and community. Everything he says just reinforces my point.
IMO it comes down to grief. Some people love it. See any MMORPG PvP scenario. If there are shared resources, like say, an open world dungeon with bosses that people can fight over, take from each other, camp, etc, there's an opportunity for grief, and some people love being able to inflict grief.
I don't see open world dungeons as being any kind of positive social thing
Jesus christ, when are people going to realize that public dungeons IS NOT THE SAME AS FIGHTING FOR RESOURCES.
All my memories of public dungeons are about people helping one another and talking and sharing, never once did I get griefed. I'm sorry that so many of you have this weird inability to understand that not all Pre WoW MMOs were identical to EverQuest.
I think anyone else that has ever played MMOs with public dungeons in a PVP environment would say that you got extremely lucky. While I found that to be a good part of my experience in UO, EVE, AC and several other MMOs with public dungeons, I also distinctly remember (fondly, for me, but not so much for some others) PK raids (UO), kill stealing of bosses (AC), ninja looting (EVE) and other such interactions that a lot of people found undesirable or at least far from 'helping and sharing'.
This view helps to explain a lot of your other posts in this thread.
I wasn't talking about PvP games, that's an entirely different bag. In PvP games, public dungeons are an absolute must, as they're PvP hotspots and sources of wars.
I was talking about PvE games with public dungeons.
There's this thing called chat that was recently implemented... idk if you've heard of it but it allows you to talk to people no matter where you both are... so yeah... /sarcasm off
And if I'm in a dungeon I already have a group of friends/party members. I already have people to socialize with and cooperate with. There is no need for another group of people to be here to trivialize the experience.
If you haven't noticed he's quite clearly stated that if at any time you are not talking to everyone in the game the whole community comes crashing down. ( ha, yes I exaggerated but it was implied )
You can't even have a private conversation with your friends, or the community is going to suffer.
Do you really want to argue with a guy that thinks a group of friends playing an mmo together is a bad thing ? Extreme views are rarely founded in rational beliefs.
Your right I suppose. There really is no point in arguing, especially with someone so illogically inclined.
I think if the world of eqn is big enough, and the dungeons are randomly placed and hidden instead of being staticly placed corridors with a boss at the end, instancing won't serve a purpose since you'll have to search for a dungeon and actually explore it anyway. Under these circumstances, running into another group should be uncommon unless you're near a population center. We don't know enough to tell yet though.
Originally posted by Metrobius I think if the world of eqn is big enough, and the dungeons are randomly placed and hidden instead of being staticly placed corridors with a boss at the end, instancing won't serve a purpose since you'll have to search for a dungeon and actually explore it anyway. Under these circumstances, running into another group should be uncommon unless you're near a population center. We don't know enough to tell yet though.
Running into other people in dungeons is half the fun. I hope there are some static ones that regularly have people in them.
Without misery, how good can things feel? What do I mean? If you never experience grief, frustration, failure, pain, discomfort, etc, how do you measure just how good an accomplishment is. This is only one aspect to my anti-instancing opinion, but it's a good one for me. It helped me understand why it was that I liked games like EQ where you had to spawn camp, or try to steal that kill to get credit.
I just did a quest line last night in Pirate 101 with a couple other players where the main battles were all instanced. The number of mobs and their difficulty level was tailored to the size and level of our group members. Lots of fun travel together with plenty of challenging battles.
Oddly, despite the complete absence of anyone killstealing, ninja looting, PKing, blocking, griefing, tagging, training or creating any other sources of frustration or failure for our group, we all had a great time.
It didn't just feel good. It felt great.
I look forward to logging in tonight, meeting up with a couple people and having a similar experience. I am quite sure it will feel great tonight, too.
I hope that someday you can eventually experience the feeling of a good gaming session without needing misery to do so, so that such an experience is no longer a mystifying concept to you.
I was out RVRing with my guildmates on my DAOC freeshard and I managed to steal the killspam for about 6 kills, PK'd the heck out of some high realm rank Albs that ran up on our zerg, and did it again when they came back. Afterwards I ran over to the Alb frontiers and gray ganked some lowbies who suddenly had a very bad evening.
Sometimes I'm on the receiving end of the same, and it's exactly the sort of game play I look for. Hopefully one day you'll come to experience such and the concept will no longer be mystifying to you either.
We game for different reasons....
Two things:
His first statement was that he could not see the other point of view, wondering how someone could enjoy that. I explained how. I did not say he was wrong for the gameplay he liked, nor did I suggest he should not like what he liked.
At no point did I say or imply that I was mystified by what he enjoyed. Actually, in my post right above yours, I not only said I was familiar with such gameplay but I had fond memories of it.
That said, despite your retort being poorly thought through, it was entertainingly written and humorous to read, and I mean that in a good way.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Instancing has its place in gaming, being used, as you said, for specific dungeons can GREATLY help the ability for the developers to tell a storyline and other things that would be broke if it wasn't instanced and people were just randomly coming in/out of it.
However instancing does have it's drawbacks, immersion breaking , a sense of disconnection, a loss of feeling in terms of a virtual "World."
My problem with instancing isn't when it's used for a specific dungeon to tell a storyline or do something that couldn't be done as well in a non-instanced dungeon.
My problem is that developers get lazy and they want to instance EVERYTHING.
One need only look at Everquest 2 for this, one of the WORST mmo's when it comes to using instances when they shouldn't of. Every bloody thing was instanced in this game. Housing, Zones, dungeons, EVERYTHING.
IT didn't feel like a world at all, rather like a series of computer hubs tethered together and you had to constnatly switch instances to find friends, etc. IT drastically pulled you out of the immersive world and sense of adventure that EQ gave you because they simply used them so much and in every single facet of the game.
The overall "world" of an mmo, the cities, the zones, etc should NEVER be instanced in a game. Dungeons? HAve a mix, have some story-focused dungeons that you can do with a group and then have some open dungeons that anyone can go through without instancing. That to me is the best use of instancing.
Instancing has became the "CGI" of mmo's. It's good when you don't notice it and only used when it absolutely needs to be, but when it's overused and every single thing is CGI'd you notice it a lot and it draws you out of the experience (cause in point, Jurassic Park vs the Star Wars prequels). JP resorted to CGi only when it needed to, otherwise it was all done with animatronics (even the giant T-Rex attack scene on the jeep), Star Wars on the other hand was CGI CGI CGI galore.
Comments
You've obviously never played a noninstanced MMO. Those "uninvolved" people aren't uninvolved just because they aren't in your group. They may become a part of your group. You may talk to them, trade with them, rez them, clash with them. It's all a part of the social experience.
Theres a shit load of data and articles from decades of online games written by very VERY smart developers discussing exactly what leads towards community forming in games and what hurts it. Virtually everyone agrees instancing hurts, for reasons that have been clearly explained here by people with many years of MMO experience. You saying "nuh uh" isn't going to make that go away.
Can you link a few of those articles you are referring to?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
And in noninstanced games, those cliques still interact with other people, forming a cohesive community. In games that reward cliques, soloing, and anti social behavior, guess what, no community forms.
And no, many people are discussing INSTANCING, not dungeon finders.
One is here
But the whole post, listing a number of things that lead to community building, are in his original post.
IMO it comes down to grief. Some people love it. See any MMORPG PvP scenario. If there are shared resources, like say, an open world dungeon with bosses that people can fight over, take from each other, camp, etc, there's an opportunity for grief, and some people love being able to inflict grief.
I don't see open world dungeons as being any kind of positive social thing, but some do. A bunch of people camping mob spawns for hours isn't my idea of a "good" social thing.
I see no real positives to an open world dungeon at all, really. I think some people might want a way to more easily camp a boss or something. Who knows. But if you're going to have significant loot then IMO it's best to put it in an instance where people have to exert some kind of effort and there's limiting factors (needing to reset and rerun the whole instance) on farming the hell out of the content.
Ultimately I would like to see options (throughout all of gameplay). Instances for people like me who want a more intimate dungeon clear (just my group, without seeing anybody else or having anybody else taint the experience) and open world areas with challenges, like zones of "elite" content that requires groups akin to the classic dungeon zones of EQLive (crushbone, unrest, etc) - zones where you really should be grouped and where there's huge potential for total carnage as people try to fight/stay in the zone.
No matter how you slice it, one thing I'm sick of is the majority of content being solo easy mode. MMORPGs are supposed to be about grouping, and ideally involve some degree of challenge. Solo content designed for the least common denominator is extremely boring and weak (as epitomized by FFXIV).
Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.
Where, in either one of those links, did you get that Raph says instancing hurts the social experience? In one link,"instancing" or "instance" never even shows up in the text anywhere.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Jesus christ, when are people going to realize that public dungeons IS NOT THE SAME AS FIGHTING FOR RESOURCES.
All my memories of public dungeons are about people helping one another and talking and sharing, never once did I get griefed. I'm sorry that so many of you have this weird inability to understand that not all Pre WoW MMOs were identical to EverQuest.
If you actually read the links, instead of looking for one word in a massive body of text, you'd understand.
I think the problem is not the instance, but how the instance is used that breaks the game. I think back to 2004 - 2005 when WOW came out ... if you wanted to run a dungeon you had to go there .. (Ahh the challenge of getting to Scarlet Monistary with no flight paths from Stormwind). I can recall my guild at the time doing that as a guild many times.
I think that the Dungeon Finder makes the players more lazy. All they have to do is sit in one place .. click and wait. I think that is when Imersion stops ... when you do not have to work at getting there.
If you did not have instaces and got rid of camping the mob from EQ ... what do you have as a system for dungeons and getting better loot at that level?
Would you like to know what TRULY kills community? DFs, RFs, Anything "Finders"!
Instancing does not stop you from socializing. I've never not talked to someone because i was in an instance, going to an instance, etc... All instancing does is allow multiple groups of people to participate in something at the same time without negatively infringing on each other.
Group Finders however are a little different. They encourage you to sit in cities and wait for your que to pop, not explore the world, and not ask that cool Paladin over there,
"Hey wanna party with me?"
+1
Yes, it does. How can you talk to people you can't see? How can you help other groups you can't see?
I think anyone else that has ever played MMOs with public dungeons in a PVP environment would say that you got extremely lucky. While I found that to be a good part of my experience in UO, EVE, AC and several other MMOs with public dungeons, I also distinctly remember (fondly, for me, but not so much for some others) PK raids (UO), kill stealing of bosses (AC), ninja looting (EVE) and other such interactions that a lot of people found undesirable or at least far from 'helping and sharing'.
This view helps to explain a lot of your other posts in this thread.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I was out RVRing with my guildmates on my DAOC freeshard and I managed to steal the killspam for about 6 kills, PK'd the heck out of some high realm rank Albs that ran up on our zerg, and did it again when they came back. Afterwards I ran over to the Alb frontiers and gray ganked some lowbies who suddenly had a very bad evening.
Sometimes I'm on the receiving end of the same, and it's exactly the sort of game play I look for. Hopefully one day you'll come to experience such and the concept will no longer be mystifying to you either.
We game for different reasons....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There's this thing called chat that was recently implemented... idk if you've heard of it but it allows you to talk to people no matter where you both are... so yeah... /sarcasm off
And if I'm in a dungeon I already have a group of friends/party members. I already have people to socialize with and cooperate with. There is no need for another group of people to be here to trivialize the experience.
If you haven't noticed he's quite clearly stated that if at any time you are not talking to everyone in the game the whole community comes crashing down. ( ha, yes I exaggerated but it was implied )
You can't even have a private conversation with your friends, or the community is going to suffer.
Do you really want to argue with a guy that thinks a group of friends playing an mmo together is a bad thing ? Extreme views are rarely founded in rational beliefs.
Ladies and gentlemen, I can offer no further proof beyond the postings of this person that instances destroy socializing and community. Everything he says just reinforces my point.
I wasn't talking about PvP games, that's an entirely different bag. In PvP games, public dungeons are an absolute must, as they're PvP hotspots and sources of wars.
I was talking about PvE games with public dungeons.
Your right I suppose. There really is no point in arguing, especially with someone so illogically inclined.
We don't know enough to tell yet though.
Running into other people in dungeons is half the fun. I hope there are some static ones that regularly have people in them.
Two things:
That said, despite your retort being poorly thought through, it was entertainingly written and humorous to read, and I mean that in a good way.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Instancing has its place in gaming, being used, as you said, for specific dungeons can GREATLY help the ability for the developers to tell a storyline and other things that would be broke if it wasn't instanced and people were just randomly coming in/out of it.
However instancing does have it's drawbacks, immersion breaking , a sense of disconnection, a loss of feeling in terms of a virtual "World."
My problem with instancing isn't when it's used for a specific dungeon to tell a storyline or do something that couldn't be done as well in a non-instanced dungeon.
My problem is that developers get lazy and they want to instance EVERYTHING.
One need only look at Everquest 2 for this, one of the WORST mmo's when it comes to using instances when they shouldn't of. Every bloody thing was instanced in this game. Housing, Zones, dungeons, EVERYTHING.
IT didn't feel like a world at all, rather like a series of computer hubs tethered together and you had to constnatly switch instances to find friends, etc. IT drastically pulled you out of the immersive world and sense of adventure that EQ gave you because they simply used them so much and in every single facet of the game.
The overall "world" of an mmo, the cities, the zones, etc should NEVER be instanced in a game. Dungeons? HAve a mix, have some story-focused dungeons that you can do with a group and then have some open dungeons that anyone can go through without instancing. That to me is the best use of instancing.
Instancing has became the "CGI" of mmo's. It's good when you don't notice it and only used when it absolutely needs to be, but when it's overused and every single thing is CGI'd you notice it a lot and it draws you out of the experience (cause in point, Jurassic Park vs the Star Wars prequels). JP resorted to CGi only when it needed to, otherwise it was all done with animatronics (even the giant T-Rex attack scene on the jeep), Star Wars on the other hand was CGI CGI CGI galore.