I don't get the OP... I mean the offer is 40% of something you spent time on willingly as part of a fun activity. The supplementary tools mentioned are, by what I can tell, going to be for higher end content creation not the bargain bin level so the average content creating user will never even need them and will get some cash from playing a video game they invested time in.
Now arguing with the OP is pointless because this thread isn't made for discussion merely either for the furthering of an agenda or misdirected hatred for a developer.
I have nothing against the developer, i actually worked for SONY for 12 years and i loved every minute of it. not sure how you come to this conclusion at all but i am not surprised any more seeing how this thread turned out.
I came to this conclusion by you bending and breaking objective facts to fit your own opinion. Earning 40% out of playing a video game for fun (not review, critique, etc) purposes is plenty while gawking at the 60% taken by the developer is like asking for free ice cream and asking to get paid really well for eating it of your own volition. If the payment model becomes overly harsh towards free players (even those creating content) then I would give you the point of it being somewhat bad but again if you think getting 40% for having fun is bad... try play Entropia Universe for a while.
Yea its assine in general from the OP because Players will be boasting a 40% profit margin with no overhead what-so-ever. Top businesses that make millions a year only dream of making/having a 40% profit margin. Your average freelancer dreams of 40% profit margin. OP is just ignorant and wants everything to be perfect in his little world.
Hey, you! Have you bothered to read the OP? Have you tried to understand what the OP said there? Does not look like it since the OP clearly said he does not want anything to do with creating content, he is not a modder, he does not want any money from SOE.
He is simply making an observation and asking other modders to comment on it.
But good job at lashing out and looking like a complete . . . nice person.
I don't get the OP... I mean the offer is 40% of something you spent time on willingly as part of a fun activity. The supplementary tools mentioned are, by what I can tell, going to be for higher end content creation not the bargain bin level so the average content creating user will never even need them and will get some cash from playing a video game they invested time in.
Now arguing with the OP is pointless because this thread isn't made for discussion merely either for the furthering of an agenda or misdirected hatred for a developer.
I have nothing against the developer, i actually worked for SONY for 12 years and i loved every minute of it. not sure how you come to this conclusion at all but i am not surprised any more seeing how this thread turned out.
I came to this conclusion by you bending and breaking objective facts to fit your own opinion.
How dare you accuse me of having an agenda against SOE or bending and breaking facts!
I am not bending and breaking any facts, please show me where i did that. I am not even interested in creating content for this game so how you come to all these conclusions is a mystery to me.
Earning 40% out of playing a video game for fun (not review, critique, etc) purposes is plenty while gawking at the 60% taken by the developer is like asking for free ice cream and asking to get paid really well for eating it of your own volition. If the payment model becomes overly harsh towards free players (even those creating content) then I would give you the point of it being somewhat bad but again if you think getting 40% for having fun is bad... try play Entropia Universe for a while.
I never questioned this to be a good or bad system. I think it's a great system and i posted that a few times now. It's great to have content created to ensure longevity of the game.
But here you are, keep ignoring all that just to accuse me of bending facts or having an agenda against SOE. You realize how vile this is, do you? You should be ashamed of yourself!
PS: I have played Entropia and i still have property there on a station. I liked the game for a while but now it mostly bores me.
Originally posted by evilized Spend a little of your leisure time creating a castle with the tools SOE gives you for 40% of the profit from any sales? Sounds fine to me.
That is how shotty business models fool people.You have those making money all happy but those spending money for what ,virtual items?All of this does one other thing,SOE does not have to do any of the work to make money off of it's customers.That means you OVER PAY because there is a middle man.
There is absolutely 100% no way for players top attain those items unless they pay that added 60% that SOE did nothing to attain aside from being a third party vendor of virtual items.This is the next phase in lazy game design,first bring us cah shops then cash shops where players do all the work.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
This is what they've been doing in eq1,2, and planetside no ? The difference in Landmark is it's actually a game and the tools are provided by SOE (as in, no Photoshop or anything like that, they're all part of Landmark).
Originally posted by evilized Spend a little of your leisure time creating a castle with the tools SOE gives you for 40% of the profit from any sales? Sounds fine to me.
That is how shotty business models fool people.You have those making money all happy but those spending money for what ,virtual items?All of this does one other thing,SOE does not have to do any of the work to make money off of it's customers.That means you OVER PAY because there is a middle man.
There is absolutely 100% no way for players top attain those items unless they pay that added 60% that SOE did nothing to attain aside from being a third party vendor of virtual items.This is the next phase in lazy game design,first bring us cah shops then cash shops where players do all the work.
Very good point, thanks for actually adding to the discussion.
While i agree with you on most of your points, i don't think its a bad thing that the developer provides these means for fans to create content. I only question the business model charging 60% on top of rather than making it free for everyone.
Instead of a service to the customers as it should be, this is another obnoxiously inflated revenue stream created only to extract more money from the player base with free content provided to them by the community.
Sadly the corporate apologists are very strong in this forum and saying anything against any company is immediately drowned in a flood of barely coherent outraged posts how we should be grateful to have the privilege to pay for it.
It is created free by the fans, it should be free for the fans!
I'm with the majority here. This is a very good posotive thing for SOE to do. If you really think about it, nothing in any MMO belongs to you at all. This is all stuff you are either renting or get free access to but DOES NOT BELONG TO YOU. Even your precious characters.
Originally posted by immodium Could you quit your day job to do it?
I doubt it. You have to provide them with all sorts of legal documents. They make sure you pay your taxes on your earnings and with only 40% of the net income (after their cost so this is probably not a straight: "it costs $10 in the shop i get $4" deal) you are way better off selling your creations for example in the Unity store (assuming here you make 3D models).
Player Studio is a great concept. It allows talented people to take part in creating content and additions to games and actually get paid for it by Sony Online Entertainment. Use your brain and think. If a title like Landmark hits the million user mark and you can make $2-$3 from 1% of that population, that's pretty significant for something you did for fun.
I think they should expand Player Studio even further quite honestly. There are some really talented people out there who can add to the longevity of a title.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
What did you expect from a company that was asked to build a cd drive for the SNES but then ran off with it and made the PS1 ? The same company that prevented Half Life coming out on the DreamCast ? Exactly.
Cheers ,
BadOrb.
PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing. "SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13 The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]
Originally posted by immodium Could you quit your day job to do it?
I doubt it. You have to provide them with all sorts of legal documents. They make sure you pay your taxes on your earnings and with only 40% of the net income (after their cost so this is probably not a straight: "it costs $10 in the shop i get $4" deal) you are way better off selling your creations for example in the Unity store (assuming here you make 3D models).
Now that's just baseless conjecture unless you can provide actual numbers.
If you created let's say 10 items that sold for 990SC and got 396SC in return that equaled out to $3. Let's say the EQ:NL playerbase is 500k and an average of just 1% bought each one of your items. That is $150k pre-tax right there. Even at a half percent of the playerbase sales you would still make 75K pre-tax.
Most items sell for a lot less than that though - typically in the 195SC to 395SC for capes and simpler items, on up to 1k to 2k for complex items and sets.
Maybe you could make more on the Unity store, but maybe not. It depends on how in demand your assets are. In EQ:NL you have a much larger defined market directed solely at the Station Store. Your target audience is also wider. In Unity asset store, where competition is heavy, people are only there to create games for marketing. Your audience is as much, if not more so, producer than they are consumer. They are much more likely to try their hand at asset creating or enlist an asset creator than they are to consume existing assets.
But see, that's the beauty of this and why your critical accusations are somewhat ridiculous. If the Unity asset store is a better more profitable deal for you then make that choice. For some, that will be the case, especially if their name is known. For others, especially those who are playing this as a pastime, this will be a much better choice. The key word here is choice. Again, if the deal doesn't work for you then don't do it, but don't throw stones just because it doesn't suit you.
It's a great idea. It gives gamers who enjoy doing that type of thing a chance to maybe turn it into a career.
Would it also attract the non-gamer just wanting to earna quick buck? Is that a bad thing though? I hear a lot of ranting on these forums that a game catering to non-mmo players is bad. How about non-gamers? Heresy.
EDIT: Why don't they add a way for the combat players to earn money? If this does do really well will SOE move development onto catering to these "players"? Leaving PvE, PvP players in the cold. Highly unlikely but it's a possibility.
So is SoE going to have a dedicated team that sifts through the thousands of crappy submissions every day? Or does that fall on the gamers to wade through all the garbage trying to find something worthwhile?
You are doing 100% of the work creating content, you get 40% of the sales.
SOE does 0% of the work and gets 60% of the sales.
Are you really saying this is fair?
ANY other real money auction house where you sell to other players has a tax of around 10-15% not 60% SIXTY!
If you were doing 100% of the work, you would be creating the content, fixing all bugs associated with it, creating the game, inserting said content into that game, on your servers, with your marketplace, and anything else that goes along with the game.
Actually, you are creating art. Is it any different from an art gallery taking a cut of the sales when they are allowing you to display it in the first place? No.
All I see here, is another person who just wants more. They aren't happy with being given something that doesn't need to be given to them in the first place. Some people believe they should be given everything for free. I guess it's just how this world works today.
So is SoE going to have a dedicated team that sifts through the thousands of crappy submissions every day? Or does that fall on the gamers to wade through all the garbage trying to find something worthwhile?
If it is like EQ1, SoE decides what goes into production, and it is usually only the very best of the bunch.
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what if you make something super cool and do not want to sell it. Could SoE market it anyway and deny you your share to boot? what if you want ed to make something and give them away, can you? Could someone buy something you made and agreed to sell and then alter it in some small way and sell the altered version themselves? so many questions, so many slippery slopes
Originally posted by Torvaldr Originally posted by FoomerangSo is SoE going to have a dedicated team that sifts through the thousands of crappy submissions every day? Or does that fall on the gamers to wade through all the garbage trying to find something worthwhile?
The program is already in place for EQ, EQ2, PS2, and Free Realms. SoE wades through a bunch of crap. Then the players get to decide if they like it. Player created content is clearly marked in the store so you know if you're looking at a weapon skin made by a player or by a SoE artist. Some of the player created stuff is pretty nice. Other stuff sort of mediocre, but not more so than the mediocre SoE generated stuff.
What's really cool, in my opinion, is that this provides a lot more diversity and choice. Instead of 10 different types of "stuff" you have 20 or 30 and it's not just what a few people at SoE thought up (even though they do a great job). It's all different kind of stuff and things that players have wanted for themselves so some, with the ability to do so, have created it.
Ah thanks for the info that is good to hear. If you ever had to browse through garbage in second life or Entropia, you'd know how bad it can get haha. Glad SoE does it differently.
Players will be buying just that -- a template. They will get a blueprint of the item/structure/masterpiece and will have to collect the required ingredients themselves in order to actually construct it. Each blueprint will also clearly state what ingredients are necessary to make the item so players will be informed before the purchase.
Royalties in Landmark will also work a bit differently than in the other titles in SOE's portfolio. We already know that if your item is used in the construction of another that is sold, you receive royalties based on the percentage of your item compared to the whole.
Originally posted by immodium Could you quit your day job to do it?
I doubt it. You have to provide them with all sorts of legal documents. They make sure you pay your taxes on your earnings and with only 40% of the net income (after their cost so this is probably not a straight: "it costs $10 in the shop i get $4" deal) you are way better off selling your creations for example in the Unity store (assuming here you make 3D models).
Now that's just baseless conjecture unless you can provide actual numbers.
I used the term: It is PROBABLY not straight forward. So i made pretty clear that i don't know it and i am assuming things. What is your point?
But see, that's the beauty of this and why your critical accusations are somewhat ridiculous.
Who am i accusing of anything? Where does this come from? Please elaborate where i ever accused SOE of anything. Do you think just making things up and then projecting them on me although i never said anything like that is a mature and nice thing to do?
If the Unity asset store is a better more profitable deal for you then make that choice. For some, that will be the case, especially if their name is known. For others, especially those who are playing this as a pastime, this will be a much better choice. The key word here is choice. Again, if the deal doesn't work for you then don't do it, but don't throw stones just because it doesn't suit you.
You still onto the ill conceived notion that i want to make assets or sell them to SOE. I think i made it clear that this deal is not for me.
Here, i spell it out for you again: I AM NOT A MODDER AND I DON'T WANT TO MAKE CONTENT OR MONEY!
You are doing 100% of the work creating content, you get 40% of the sales.
SOE does 0% of the work and gets 60% of the sales.
Are you really saying this is fair?
ANY other real money auction house where you sell to other players has a tax of around 10-15% not 60% SIXTY!
Pretty sure others have ripped you a new hole but I'll also add to it.
SONY IS THE ONE WHO MADE THE DAMN GAME!!!
You are doing shit. You are only playing the damn thing and you might actually get paid for doing it.
You need to understand what ownership means. They developed and own the game. It amazes me entirely that they are actually willing to pay out money when it is entirely within their right to simply add to the EULA that all content generated by you is owned entirely by them and you get NOTHING. Pretty much 100% of companies up until now have done this minus some like Google who will offer to buy out your projects if they like it (and you have to be employed by them to begin with).
Welcome to reality. If you walk into an art house and use their paint, in their building and on their canvas, YOU do not own that art. Go buy your own damn materials and use your own space. You would not be creating anything in this game if Sony did not already make the tools for you.
If you were doing 100% of the work, you would be creating the content, fixing all bugs associated with it, creating the game, inserting said content into that game, on your servers, with your marketplace, and anything else that goes along with the game.
What does fixing servers and bugs have to do with creating Assets for the game? What does creating the game have to do with making assets for it? Next thing you tell me they have to pay for their offices and coffee like some other poster. Hillarious!
Actually, you are creating art. Is it any different from an art gallery taking a cut of the sales when they are allowing you to display it in the first place? No.
So you are saying running an real life art gallery is the same as putting a digital item into your digital store? Are you for real?
All I see here, is another person who just wants more. They aren't happy with being given something that doesn't need to be given to them in the first place. Some people believe they should be given everything for free. I guess it's just how this world works today.
I don't want anything and if you took the time to read my OP you would know that. I made clear in my post that i do not want anything from SOE, i was asking other people especially modders what they think about this deal.
You have provided nothing but nonsense to this thread, thanks for that.
Originally posted by CrazKanuk
You mean SOE does 0% of the work except putting your work in front of all of their user base.
Correct, they wait for people to submit Assets. Select them and put them into a digital store.
You're more than welcome to sell your creations to your friends for 100%. See how much money you make with this.
You are making no sense, what does this have to do with my friends? I made clear in my post that i do not want to sell anything, i was asking other people especially modders what they think about this deal.
Think of it as a digital art gallery, there's really no difference.
Except digital art galleries or sites that let you sell your Themes, Fonts etc. give you more than 40% of the sales which was why i think its a little bit one sided, essentially you made my point.
I love that so many people are defending SOE in this like they're doing a good thing because you're using their tools, etc.
In NO OTHER part of the world or industry in the world are the "shop" fees or cut that high. Whether you're a sculptor using the shop kiln, a hairdresser at a hair solon using their seats, building, etc, a realtor using an office at re-max, etc
NONE of them have fees that are 60%.
I beg to differ.
Friend of mine at work who's GF rents a chair at a Hairdressers has to pay the owner £50 per day + 50% of her takings from the clients, yes it's mad and yes the woman should just leave but it's a good Hairdresser so she gets valuable contacts when she decides to set-up on her own.
I wouldn't say ppl are defending SoE, they are just being practical. I would imagine that the licensing rights to the software used to create anything would be far too much for most of us to afford, so we are able to access these tools for free. Yes there are others games out there that also allow you to create content, but I can't think of any that will allow you to sell it through them, they will happily make it available for others to use, thus using your creations to extend their own content library, using your hard labour to gain a benefit for no renumeration.
I won't be using this service though, I would like to but I'll be honest and just say I haven't an artistic bone in my body, I can't even draw a stick man well.
Comments
That is how shotty business models fool people.You have those making money all happy but those spending money for what ,virtual items?All of this does one other thing,SOE does not have to do any of the work to make money off of it's customers.That means you OVER PAY because there is a middle man.
There is absolutely 100% no way for players top attain those items unless they pay that added 60% that SOE did nothing to attain aside from being a third party vendor of virtual items.This is the next phase in lazy game design,first bring us cah shops then cash shops where players do all the work.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
This is what they've been doing in eq1,2, and planetside no ? The difference in Landmark is it's actually a game and the tools are provided by SOE (as in, no Photoshop or anything like that, they're all part of Landmark).
I don't have a problem with it like that.
as i posted in a different thread
SOE had RMAH 7 years ago, Station Exchange
http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/02/07/soe-whitepaper-on-station-exchange/
SOE did away with the service 2 years ago (Live Gamer) but it seems SOE is bringing back another incarnation of Station Exchange
EQ2 fan sites
Very good point, thanks for actually adding to the discussion.
While i agree with you on most of your points, i don't think its a bad thing that the developer provides these means for fans to create content. I only question the business model charging 60% on top of rather than making it free for everyone.
Instead of a service to the customers as it should be, this is another obnoxiously inflated revenue stream created only to extract more money from the player base with free content provided to them by the community.
Sadly the corporate apologists are very strong in this forum and saying anything against any company is immediately drowned in a flood of barely coherent outraged posts how we should be grateful to have the privilege to pay for it.
It is created free by the fans, it should be free for the fans!
I doubt it. You have to provide them with all sorts of legal documents. They make sure you pay your taxes on your earnings and with only 40% of the net income (after their cost so this is probably not a straight: "it costs $10 in the shop i get $4" deal) you are way better off selling your creations for example in the Unity store (assuming here you make 3D models).
Player Studio is a great concept. It allows talented people to take part in creating content and additions to games and actually get paid for it by Sony Online Entertainment. Use your brain and think. If a title like Landmark hits the million user mark and you can make $2-$3 from 1% of that population, that's pretty significant for something you did for fun.
I think they should expand Player Studio even further quite honestly. There are some really talented people out there who can add to the longevity of a title.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
What did you expect from a company that was asked to build a cd drive for the SNES but then ran off with it and made the PS1 ? The same company that prevented Half Life coming out on the DreamCast ? Exactly.
Cheers ,
BadOrb.
PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing.
"SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13
The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]
It's a great idea. It gives gamers who enjoy doing that type of thing a chance to maybe turn it into a career.
Would it also attract the non-gamer just wanting to earna quick buck? Is that a bad thing though? I hear a lot of ranting on these forums that a game catering to non-mmo players is bad. How about non-gamers? Heresy.
EDIT: Why don't they add a way for the combat players to earn money? If this does do really well will SOE move development onto catering to these "players"? Leaving PvE, PvP players in the cold. Highly unlikely but it's a possibility.
So is SoE going to have a dedicated team that sifts through the thousands of crappy submissions every day? Or does that fall on the gamers to wade through all the garbage trying to find something worthwhile?
If you were doing 100% of the work, you would be creating the content, fixing all bugs associated with it, creating the game, inserting said content into that game, on your servers, with your marketplace, and anything else that goes along with the game.
Actually, you are creating art. Is it any different from an art gallery taking a cut of the sales when they are allowing you to display it in the first place? No.
All I see here, is another person who just wants more. They aren't happy with being given something that doesn't need to be given to them in the first place. Some people believe they should be given everything for free. I guess it's just how this world works today.
You mean SOE does 0% of the work except putting your work in front of all of their user base.
You're more than welcome to sell your creations to your friends for 100%. See how much money you make with this.
Think of it as a digital art gallery, there's really no difference.
Crazkanuk
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If it is like EQ1, SoE decides what goes into production, and it is usually only the very best of the bunch.
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What's really cool, in my opinion, is that this provides a lot more diversity and choice. Instead of 10 different types of "stuff" you have 20 or 30 and it's not just what a few people at SoE thought up (even though they do a great job). It's all different kind of stuff and things that players have wanted for themselves so some, with the ability to do so, have created it.
Ah thanks for the info that is good to hear. If you ever had to browse through garbage in second life or Entropia, you'd know how bad it can get haha. Glad SoE does it differently.
the 60/40 rule probably doesnt apply
SOE Live info
http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/08/04/soe-live-2013-delving-deeper-into-eqns-landmark
Players will be buying just that -- a template. They will get a blueprint of the item/structure/masterpiece and will have to collect the required ingredients themselves in order to actually construct it. Each blueprint will also clearly state what ingredients are necessary to make the item so players will be informed before the purchase.
Royalties in Landmark will also work a bit differently than in the other titles in SOE's portfolio. We already know that if your item is used in the construction of another that is sold, you receive royalties based on the percentage of your item compared to the whole.
EQ2 fan sites
Pretty sure others have ripped you a new hole but I'll also add to it.
SONY IS THE ONE WHO MADE THE DAMN GAME!!!
You are doing shit. You are only playing the damn thing and you might actually get paid for doing it.
You need to understand what ownership means. They developed and own the game. It amazes me entirely that they are actually willing to pay out money when it is entirely within their right to simply add to the EULA that all content generated by you is owned entirely by them and you get NOTHING. Pretty much 100% of companies up until now have done this minus some like Google who will offer to buy out your projects if they like it (and you have to be employed by them to begin with).
Welcome to reality. If you walk into an art house and use their paint, in their building and on their canvas, YOU do not own that art. Go buy your own damn materials and use your own space. You would not be creating anything in this game if Sony did not already make the tools for you.
Your logic is painfully flawed.
You stay sassy!
I beg to differ.
Friend of mine at work who's GF rents a chair at a Hairdressers has to pay the owner £50 per day + 50% of her takings from the clients, yes it's mad and yes the woman should just leave but it's a good Hairdresser so she gets valuable contacts when she decides to set-up on her own.
I wouldn't say ppl are defending SoE, they are just being practical. I would imagine that the licensing rights to the software used to create anything would be far too much for most of us to afford, so we are able to access these tools for free. Yes there are others games out there that also allow you to create content, but I can't think of any that will allow you to sell it through them, they will happily make it available for others to use, thus using your creations to extend their own content library, using your hard labour to gain a benefit for no renumeration.
I won't be using this service though, I would like to but I'll be honest and just say I haven't an artistic bone in my body, I can't even draw a stick man well.