FYI - youre saying that staple "hardcore" games like BW, TFC, Darkfall, UO aren't hardcore, they're casual. It seems like what's happening is you start with a definition off the top of your head and when you're faced with reality that contradicts that definition, you just warp reality in your mind instead of just admitting your initial assessment was wrong.
What do YOU mean by hardcore? Hardcore does NOT mean something is hard or easy. It has NOTHING to do with ones skill level.
So please enlighten me why some people class BE, TFC, Darkfall and UO as "hardcore". Is it just because they find it hard (so very subjective, not fact) or they play it to extreme levels?
Apparently we are off topic and I'm sure I have discussed this before on this site.
FYI - youre saying that staple "hardcore" games like BW, TFC, Darkfall, UO aren't hardcore, they're casual. It seems like what's happening is you start with a definition off the top of your head and when you're faced with reality that contradicts that definition, you just warp reality in your mind instead of just admitting your initial assessment was wrong.
What do YOU mean by hardcore? Hardcore does NOT mean something is hard or easy. It has NOTHING to do with ones skill level.
So please enlighten me why some people class BE, TFC, Darkfall and UO as "hardcore". Is it just because they find it hard (so very subjective, not fact) or they play it to extreme levels?
Apparently we are off topic and I'm sure I have discussed this before on this site.
I think it's many different things. Ultimately it just means whatever that type of player will like. Casual players like to be able to get things done in short amounts of time, I can buy that. But they also like to feel powerful in short amounts of time. This is one of the reasons LoL is so popular among casual players. It's not mechanically difficult to jump out of a bush and gank a guy. Contrast this with a more difficult game like SC2 where it is mechanically difficult to do anything in that game... even looking around your base regardless of what you're opponent is doing.
single player games are no exception. It's not a coincidence that games are appealing more to casual players and also becoming easier and more forgiving.
Originally posted by Holophonist In all of my interactions with people regarding video games, anytime somebody has said "man, that game is hardcore" they've never been talking about the length of play session. They're always talking about difficulty and how unforgiving it is. Dark Souls for example has an autosave function, all of your progress is saved. By your definition it should be considered incredibly casual, yet it's considered very hardcore. Why? Because it's very difficult and unforgiving.
There's a big difference between Hardcore/Casual and Hard/Easy.
That's why this debate is pretty silly. What you find hard, some one will find easy.
So the many people who classify difficult games like dark souls as being hardcore are wrong?
Depends what levels he's playing it.
Hardcore is like the phrase diehard, having an extreme dedication to a certain activity. If they are playing DS to that extent then yes, they are hardcore.
Are people thinking it means hard as the first four letters spell hard in hardcore? I hope not.
You're not grasping the point of the discussion I think. People can play games casually or hardcore. The question is what qualities to facilitate each. Or more importantly, what qualities attract which kind of player.
I think its you that is not understanding the definition of hardcore.
Hearthstone is a very causal game, but will you call it casual to those players that play it hours and hours building their own decks and testing them and using them to compete. Nope, those players are playing Hearthstone hardcore. The dedication they put themselves in made the games hardcore.
I played Darksoul casually, but still it was a very punishing game because I was just not very used to it, bosses were extremely hard to me atleast so Its Hard not Hardcore. I didn't lose sleep over the game, I just didn't play it till a couple days later and tried again and again until I beaten one boss then waited for another few days till I attempt the next one.
LOL is a very casual game to me, I didn't spent hours learning my build, I log in, play for a few hours then I am out. But for others, they spend hours and hours learning their build, learning what items they need to succeed and working on their Minion last hits. They are hardcore players for that game, but that game is not hard to play.
Games will be what the player want it to be, but if there is a hard MMO out there, I think the achievements in those games will be worth the time people invest in them. But Hard is not Hardcore.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Originally posted by Holophonist In all of my interactions with people regarding video games, anytime somebody has said "man, that game is hardcore" they've never been talking about the length of play session. They're always talking about difficulty and how unforgiving it is. Dark Souls for example has an autosave function, all of your progress is saved. By your definition it should be considered incredibly casual, yet it's considered very hardcore. Why? Because it's very difficult and unforgiving.
There's a big difference between Hardcore/Casual and Hard/Easy.
That's why this debate is pretty silly. What you find hard, some one will find easy.
So the many people who classify difficult games like dark souls as being hardcore are wrong?
Depends what levels he's playing it.
Hardcore is like the phrase diehard, having an extreme dedication to a certain activity. If they are playing DS to that extent then yes, they are hardcore.
Are people thinking it means hard as the first four letters spell hard in hardcore? I hope not.
You're not grasping the point of the discussion I think. People can play games casually or hardcore. The question is what qualities to facilitate each. Or more importantly, what qualities attract which kind of player.
It's all down to the player if he wants to take it to hardcore levels.
Games never dictate whether you have to play the game hardcore or not.
Even with perma-death you can actually play casual. Just start from the beginning again.
FYI - youre saying that staple "hardcore" games like BW, TFC, Darkfall, UO aren't hardcore, they're casual. It seems like what's happening is you start with a definition off the top of your head and when you're faced with reality that contradicts that definition, you just warp reality in your mind instead of just admitting your initial assessment was wrong.
What do YOU mean by hardcore? Hardcore does NOT mean something is hard or easy. It has NOTHING to do with ones skill level.
So please enlighten me why some people class BE, TFC, Darkfall and UO as "hardcore". Is it just because they find it hard (so very subjective, not fact) or they play it to extreme levels?
Apparently we are off topic and I'm sure I have discussed this before on this site.
I think it's many different things. Ultimately it just means whatever that type of player will like. Casual players like to be able to get things done in short amounts of time, I can buy that. But they also like to feel powerful in short amounts of time. This is one of the reasons LoL is so popular among casual players. It's not mechanically difficult to jump out of a bush and gank a guy. Contrast this with a more difficult game like SC2 where it is mechanically difficult to do anything in that game... even looking around your base regardless of what you're opponent is doing.
single player games are no exception. It's not a coincidence that games are appealing more to casual players and also becoming easier and more forgiving.
I also play SC2 casually, it doesn't take a lot of time to learn the basics. Once upon a time I was hardcore when playing SC , I trained with my friends learning how to minimize the amount of time to build, how to defend and how to attack efficiently. But I got out of college and I play it casually now. Does that make SC a casual or Hardcore game, because it was both to me.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Here's the thing. The world and everything in it is constantly in a state of change, between what was and what will be. What something is only lasts for a moment. We can remember those moments, but that's all because those moments are gone.
The MMO genre as a whole is no different from everything else in the world. It is not what it was because it is always becoming what it will be. The only way for the genre to become what it was, and then stay that way would be to kill it.
So, no, players today do not "get the point" of the MMO genre as it was ten years ago. Why should they? Of what use is that knowledge for someone who gets the point of the MMO genre as it is right now?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I like this idea that the difference between casual and hardcore is mostly determined at the player level, not the game level. Someone can play SC2 or LoL casually. Someone can play Dark Souls as a casual player. There are hardcore Farmville players. Well, maybe not now, but there were.
This is so totally off topic, but still, it's nice to see something presented from a different perspective than the accepted one.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by Holophonist Originally posted by immodium Originally posted by Holophonist Originally posted by immodium Originally posted by Holophonist In all of my interactions with people regarding video games, anytime somebody has said "man, that game is hardcore" they've never been talking about the length of play session. They're always talking about difficulty and how unforgiving it is. Dark Souls for example has an autosave function, all of your progress is saved. By your definition it should be considered incredibly casual, yet it's considered very hardcore. Why? Because it's very difficult and unforgiving.
There's a big difference between Hardcore/Casual and Hard/Easy.
That's why this debate is pretty silly. What you find hard, some one will find easy.
So the many people who classify difficult games like dark souls as being hardcore are wrong?
Depends what levels he's playing it.
Hardcore is like the phrase diehard, having an extreme dedication to a certain activity. If they are playing DS to that extent then yes, they are hardcore.
Are people thinking it means hard as the first four letters spell hard in hardcore? I hope not.
You're not grasping the point of the discussion I think. People can play games casually or hardcore. The question is what qualities to facilitate each. Or more importantly, what qualities attract which kind of player.
I think its you that is not understanding the definition of hardcore.
Hearthstone is a very causal game, but will you call it casual to those players that play it hours and hours building their own decks and testing them and using them to compete. Nope, those players are playing Hearthstone hardcore. The dedication they put themselves in made the games hardcore.
I played Darksoul casually, but still it was a very punishing game because I was just not very used to it, bosses were extremely hard to me atleast so Its Hard not Hardcore. I didn't lose sleep over the game, I just didn't play it till a couple days later and tried again and again until I beaten one boss then waited for another few days till I attempt the next one.
LOL is a very casual game to me, I didn't spent hours learning my build, I log in, play for a few hours then I am out. But for others, they spend hours and hours learning their build, learning what items they need to succeed and working on their Minion last hits. They are hardcore players for that game, but that game is not hard to play.
Games will be what the player want it to be, but if there is a hard MMO out there, I think the achievements in those games will be worth the time people invest in them. But Hard is not Hardcore.
Are you guys just not reading my posts? I've answered this. Yes people can play games however they want, however some games are more conducive to casual play; some games are more conducive to hardcore play. The question is what features facilitate which playstyle more. You can play a game with short play sessions in a hardcore way, yes? Then how do short play sessions make a game casual?
Originally posted by Holophonist Originally posted by immodium Originally posted by Holophonist Originally posted by immodium Originally posted by Holophonist In all of my interactions with people regarding video games, anytime somebody has said "man, that game is hardcore" they've never been talking about the length of play session. They're always talking about difficulty and how unforgiving it is. Dark Souls for example has an autosave function, all of your progress is saved. By your definition it should be considered incredibly casual, yet it's considered very hardcore. Why? Because it's very difficult and unforgiving.
There's a big difference between Hardcore/Casual and Hard/Easy.
That's why this debate is pretty silly. What you find hard, some one will find easy.
So the many people who classify difficult games like dark souls as being hardcore are wrong?
Depends what levels he's playing it.
Hardcore is like the phrase diehard, having an extreme dedication to a certain activity. If they are playing DS to that extent then yes, they are hardcore.
Are people thinking it means hard as the first four letters spell hard in hardcore? I hope not.
You're not grasping the point of the discussion I think. People can play games casually or hardcore. The question is what qualities to facilitate each. Or more importantly, what qualities attract which kind of player.
It's all down to the player if he wants to take it to hardcore levels.
Games never dictate whether you have to play the game hardcore or not.
Even with perma-death you can actually play casual. Just start from the beginning again.
Yes and some games are more conducive to hardcore play. For instance not as many people play solitaire in a hardcore way as broodwar or quake live.
Are you guys just not reading my posts? I've answered this. Yes people can play games however they want, however some games are more conducive to casual play; some games are more conducive to hardcore play. The question is what features facilitate which playstyle more. You can play a game with short play sessions in a hardcore way, yes? Then how do short play sessions make a game casual?
I would amend my stance to say the time a person dedicates to the game is what determines casual or hardcore. If the game allows meaningful progress in a short period of time it is more casual than a game that does not.
Therefore if a game has nothing but short game sessions it is not a hardcore game, ever, because IMO and IMO the view of most gamers the time is the requirement. However a person can still play that game in a hardcore way by playing many short play sessions. 20 15 minute sessions is still a long time.
A game being condusive to casual play or hardcore play is, as I said, determined by whether the game allows meaningful progress in a short period of time.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Are you guys just not reading my posts? I've answered this. Yes people can play games however they want, however some games are more conducive to casual play; some games are more conducive to hardcore play. The question is what features facilitate which playstyle more. You can play a game with short play sessions in a hardcore way, yes? Then how do short play sessions make a game casual?
I would amend my stance to say the time a person dedicates to the game is what determines casual or hardcore. If the game allows meaningful progress in a short period of time it is more casual than a game that does not.
Therefore if a game has nothing but short game sessions it is not a hardcore game, ever, because IMO and IMO the view of most gamers the time is the requirement. However a person can still play that game in a hardcore way by playing many short play sessions. 20 15 minute sessions is still a long time.
A game being condusive to casual play or hardcore play is, as I said, determined by whether the game allows meaningful progress in a short period of time.
Difficulty can impact how much you get done in a given time.
Originally posted by HolophonistAre you guys just not reading my posts? I've answered this. Yes people can play games however they want, however some games are more conducive to casual play; some games are more conducive to hardcore play. The question is what features facilitate which playstyle more. You can play a game with short play sessions in a hardcore way, yes? Then how do short play sessions make a game casual?
SC2 is the epitome of casual as games can last 5 minutes. However you can also play it hardcore. It has nothing to do with mechanics IMO. It has very simple mechanics.
Same with chess. Another very casual game but can be played hardcore if you choose. Again has very simple mechanics.
Me thinking the mechanics are simple is purely subjective I know.
Are you guys just not reading my posts? I've answered this. Yes people can play games however they want, however some games are more conducive to casual play; some games are more conducive to hardcore play. The question is what features facilitate which playstyle more. You can play a game with short play sessions in a hardcore way, yes? Then how do short play sessions make a game casual?
I would amend my stance to say the time a person dedicates to the game is what determines casual or hardcore. If the game allows meaningful progress in a short period of time it is more casual than a game that does not.
Therefore if a game has nothing but short game sessions it is not a hardcore game, ever, because IMO and IMO the view of most gamers the time is the requirement. However a person can still play that game in a hardcore way by playing many short play sessions. 20 15 minute sessions is still a long time.
A game being condusive to casual play or hardcore play is, as I said, determined by whether the game allows meaningful progress in a short period of time.
Difficulty can impact how much you get done in a given time.
I am never going to agree with you that difficulty determines casual or hardcore, nor do I think the majority of gamers believe that either.
Something difficult usually does take a long time to do, however there are often ways (actually almost without exception there are ways and those ways are implemented) to break it down into small chunks. Therefore a very difficult game can still be very casual.
Casual vs hardcore is the time you dedicate to a game.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by Holophonist Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Originally posted by Holophonist
Are you guys just not reading my posts? I've answered this. Yes people can play games however they want, however some games are more conducive to casual play; some games are more conducive to hardcore play. The question is what features facilitate which playstyle more. You can play a game with short play sessions in a hardcore way, yes? Then how do short play sessions make a game casual?
I would amend my stance to say the time a person dedicates to the game is what determines casual or hardcore. If the game allows meaningful progress in a short period of time it is more casual than a game that does not.
Therefore if a game has nothing but short game sessions it is not a hardcore game, ever, because IMO and IMO the view of most gamers the time is the requirement. However a person can still play that game in a hardcore way by playing many short play sessions. 20 15 minute sessions is still a long time.
A game being condusive to casual play or hardcore play is, as I said, determined by whether the game allows meaningful progress in a short period of time.
Difficulty can impact how much you get done in a given time.
I am never going to agree with you that difficulty determines casual or hardcore, nor do I think the majority of gamers believe that either.
Something difficult usually does take a long time to do, however there are often ways (actually almost without exception there are ways and those ways are implemented) to break it down into small chunks. Therefore a very difficult game can still be very casual.
Casual vs hardcore is the time you dedicate to a game.
Ugh. Look, if you're saying that the only thing that matters is how much an individual person devotes to the game then you're saying no game can be objectively more casual than another. However, you can still observe that certain games will be played in a more casual way than others. People in general play solitaire more casually than broodwar.
Here's why difficulty matters: it gives you more of a reason to play a game in a hardcore way. If a game is very easy, you're less likely to play it in a hardcore way.
I think some of you are not connecting with the Ops point. I don't think he is saying bring back a 14 year old game (some of them never died), but more so the genre didn't evolve from where it started. In the beginning choice was rampant. Huge skill trees. Multiple trade skills. And Vast places to explore (and find something interesting). Today games are more restrictive. Less classes. No real skill trees. And advancement being by and large narrow.
its not to say games today are bad or wrong but to point out they are missing the very things that defined them in the first place. I play all MMOs (I'll be in ESO beta on Friday) and none of these titles come close to the breadth and depth of the past.
Don't bring back the old stuff. Make new stuff that evolves the old stuff. Key word being evolution.
please help us kick starter, you are our only hope.
Originally posted by HolophonistAre you guys just not reading my posts? I've answered this. Yes people can play games however they want, however some games are more conducive to casual play; some games are more conducive to hardcore play. The question is what features facilitate which playstyle more. You can play a game with short play sessions in a hardcore way, yes? Then how do short play sessions make a game casual?
SC2 is the epitome of casual as games can last 5 minutes. However you can also play it hardcore. It has nothing to do with mechanics IMO. It has very simple mechanics.
Same with chess. Another very casual game but can be played hardcore if you choose. Again has very simple mechanics.
Me thinking the mechanics are simple is purely subjective I know.
Right sc2 is the epitome of casual based on your definition. But sc2 is not a casual game. There was a huge push in the community to make the game more casual friendly to complete with LoL and NOBODY mentioned play time. When reality disagrees with your definition, it's time to change your definition.
Originally posted by HolophonistAre you guys just not reading my posts? I've answered this. Yes people can play games however they want, however some games are more conducive to casual play; some games are more conducive to hardcore play. The question is what features facilitate which playstyle more. You can play a game with short play sessions in a hardcore way, yes? Then how do short play sessions make a game casual?
SC2 is the epitome of casual as games can last 5 minutes. However you can also play it hardcore. It has nothing to do with mechanics IMO. It has very simple mechanics.
Same with chess. Another very casual game but can be played hardcore if you choose. Again has very simple mechanics.
Me thinking the mechanics are simple is purely subjective I know.
Right sc2 is the epitome of casual based on your definition. But sc2 is not a casual game. There was a huge push in the community to make the game more casual friendly to complete with LoL and NOBODY mentioned play time. When reality disagrees with your definition, it's time to change your definition.
All RTS I have played since Dune 2/Warcraft 1 have been casual friendly, it's nothing new.
Actually how do you turn a casual friendly game more casual friendly? Make the game easier(which has nothing to do with hardcore/casual btw)
Also, why do I have to change my definition? Yours is obviously wrong.
While I will agree that most MMOs are hollow cardboard cut-outs that tack a multiplayer experience to what is mostly a single player game, I can't blame them.
The "older generation" of MMO gamers were in their early 20s when playing, before a serious career, family, etc. Virtual worlds that took a long time accomplish things are rewarding but if you don't have time, you don't have time. That's why in some cases there was a huge stigma towards MMOs, because they demanded you be addicted to them to succeed.
Once WoW started printing money it was over for x years. You can clearly see that by how many titles released year after year with mostly the same "system" and why now there are a sea of them, each now begging you to play and pay for something.
Not so many release nowadays because the well has dried up. The idea of customer retention has demanded attention in a F2P market and shallow themeparks are only good for a sugar rush. That's the good news as the idea of retaining customers should be important and this focus will benefit all.
Because of these elements present I think MMOs will get more involved, deeper and focus on longevity. That and cheaper dev alternatives like mobile games and MOBAs.
Are you guys just not reading my posts? I've answered this. Yes people can play games however they want, however some games are more conducive to casual play; some games are more conducive to hardcore play. The question is what features facilitate which playstyle more. You can play a game with short play sessions in a hardcore way, yes? Then how do short play sessions make a game casual?
I would amend my stance to say the time a person dedicates to the game is what determines casual or hardcore. If the game allows meaningful progress in a short period of time it is more casual than a game that does not.
Therefore if a game has nothing but short game sessions it is not a hardcore game, ever, because IMO and IMO the view of most gamers the time is the requirement. However a person can still play that game in a hardcore way by playing many short play sessions. 20 15 minute sessions is still a long time.
A game being condusive to casual play or hardcore play is, as I said, determined by whether the game allows meaningful progress in a short period of time.
Difficulty can impact how much you get done in a given time.
I am never going to agree with you that difficulty determines casual or hardcore, nor do I think the majority of gamers believe that either.
Something difficult usually does take a long time to do, however there are often ways (actually almost without exception there are ways and those ways are implemented) to break it down into small chunks. Therefore a very difficult game can still be very casual.
Casual vs hardcore is the time you dedicate to a game.
Ugh. Look, if you're saying that the only thing that matters is how much an individual person devotes to the game then you're saying no game can be objectively more casual than another. However, you can still observe that certain games will be played in a more casual way than others. People in general play solitaire more casually than broodwar.
Here's why difficulty matters: it gives you more of a reason to play a game in a hardcore way. If a game is very easy, you're less likely to play it in a hardcore way.
And the games that are played in a casual manner obviously have what is considered meaningful progress in a short amount of time.
That is not why difficulty matters, that is only why it matters to you. Difficulty may give someone a reason to play the game, if may give someone a reason to play the game long term. It does not determine how much time is needed to play the game at any one time.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by Holophonist Originally posted by immodium Originally posted by HolophonistAre you guys just not reading my posts? I've answered this. Yes people can play games however they want, however some games are more conducive to casual play; some games are more conducive to hardcore play. The question is what features facilitate which playstyle more. You can play a game with short play sessions in a hardcore way, yes? Then how do short play sessions make a game casual?
SC2 is the epitome of casual as games can last 5 minutes. However you can also play it hardcore. It has nothing to do with mechanics IMO. It has very simple mechanics.
Same with chess. Another very casual game but can be played hardcore if you choose. Again has very simple mechanics.
Me thinking the mechanics are simple is purely subjective I know.
Right sc2 is the epitome of casual based on your definition. But sc2 is not a casual game. There was a huge push in the community to make the game more casual friendly to complete with LoL and NOBODY mentioned play time. When reality disagrees with your definition, it's time to change your definition.
All RTS I have played since Dune 2/Warcraft 1 have been casual friendly, it's nothing new.
Actually how do you turn a casual friendly game more casual friendly? Make the game easier(which has nothing to do with hardcore/casual btw)
Also, why do I have to change my definition? Yours is obviously wrong.
No. The things they implemented were based around accessibility and making easier game modes. None of the changes were focused on game length.
Originally posted by Holophonist Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Originally posted by Holophonist Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Originally posted by Holophonist
Are you guys just not reading my posts? I've answered this. Yes people can play games however they want, however some games are more conducive to casual play; some games are more conducive to hardcore play. The question is what features facilitate which playstyle more. You can play a game with short play sessions in a hardcore way, yes? Then how do short play sessions make a game casual?
I would amend my stance to say the time a person dedicates to the game is what determines casual or hardcore. If the game allows meaningful progress in a short period of time it is more casual than a game that does not.
Therefore if a game has nothing but short game sessions it is not a hardcore game, ever, because IMO and IMO the view of most gamers the time is the requirement. However a person can still play that game in a hardcore way by playing many short play sessions. 20 15 minute sessions is still a long time.
A game being condusive to casual play or hardcore play is, as I said, determined by whether the game allows meaningful progress in a short period of time.
Difficulty can impact how much you get done in a given time.
I am never going to agree with you that difficulty determines casual or hardcore, nor do I think the majority of gamers believe that either.
Something difficult usually does take a long time to do, however there are often ways (actually almost without exception there are ways and those ways are implemented) to break it down into small chunks. Therefore a very difficult game can still be very casual.
Casual vs hardcore is the time you dedicate to a game.
Ugh. Look, if you're saying that the only thing that matters is how much an individual person devotes to the game then you're saying no game can be objectively more casual than another. However, you can still observe that certain games will be played in a more casual way than others. People in general play solitaire more casually than broodwar.
Here's why difficulty matters: it gives you more of a reason to play a game in a hardcore way. If a game is very easy, you're less likely to play it in a hardcore way.
And the games that are played in a casual manner obviously have what is considered meaningful progress in a short amount of time.
That is not why difficulty matters, that is only why it matters to you. Difficulty may give someone a reason to play the game, if may give someone a reason to play the game long term. It does not determine how much time is needed to play the game at any one time.
If you're now defining casual as being able to get something meaningful done in a short amount of time, then I'll mention again that difficulty plays a part in that.
regarding my last statement about difficulty: it's not just for me. It's about skill cap. If a game's mechanics are easy to master, that makes it that much less likely you're going to play the game long term. If a game has a high skill cap mechanically, that's more conducive to longterm, hardcore playstyles.
Are you guys just not reading my posts? I've answered this. Yes people can play games however they want, however some games are more conducive to casual play; some games are more conducive to hardcore play. The question is what features facilitate which playstyle more. You can play a game with short play sessions in a hardcore way, yes? Then how do short play sessions make a game casual?
I would amend my stance to say the time a person dedicates to the game is what determines casual or hardcore. If the game allows meaningful progress in a short period of time it is more casual than a game that does not.
Therefore if a game has nothing but short game sessions it is not a hardcore game, ever, because IMO and IMO the view of most gamers the time is the requirement. However a person can still play that game in a hardcore way by playing many short play sessions. 20 15 minute sessions is still a long time.
A game being condusive to casual play or hardcore play is, as I said, determined by whether the game allows meaningful progress in a short period of time.
Difficulty can impact how much you get done in a given time.
I am never going to agree with you that difficulty determines casual or hardcore, nor do I think the majority of gamers believe that either.
Something difficult usually does take a long time to do, however there are often ways (actually almost without exception there are ways and those ways are implemented) to break it down into small chunks. Therefore a very difficult game can still be very casual.
Casual vs hardcore is the time you dedicate to a game.
Ugh. Look, if you're saying that the only thing that matters is how much an individual person devotes to the game then you're saying no game can be objectively more casual than another. However, you can still observe that certain games will be played in a more casual way than others. People in general play solitaire more casually than broodwar.
Here's why difficulty matters: it gives you more of a reason to play a game in a hardcore way. If a game is very easy, you're less likely to play it in a hardcore way.
And the games that are played in a casual manner obviously have what is considered meaningful progress in a short amount of time.
That is not why difficulty matters, that is only why it matters to you. Difficulty may give someone a reason to play the game, if may give someone a reason to play the game long term. It does not determine how much time is needed to play the game at any one time.
If you're now defining casual as being able to get something meaningful done in a short amount of time, then I'll mention again that difficulty plays a part in that.
regarding my last statement about difficulty: it's not just for me. It's about skill cap. If a game's mechanics are easy to master, that makes it that much less likely you're going to play the game long term. If a game has a high skill cap mechanically, that's more conducive to longterm, hardcore playstyles.
Thats how we've always defined it. I only added, or possibly changed it to state that it is the time the players dedicate to it meaning that the player can get something meangfull done in a short period of time. They can still play longer, however it is not needed to be meaningfull, they just want to.
And no difficulty does not play a part. Difficulty defines how hard the game is, it may define how long the game is, it does not define how much meaningful progress can be made during any particular gaming sessions. A game can be very very hard and still have something signficant done in half an hour.
A game can be very easy and still take a very very very long time. How high the skill cap is (in MMO games we are typically not talking about twitch skill) has nothing do with difficulty.
A game that takes to reach skill cap can still be casual or hardcore if there is meaningful progress in whatever the person is doing during a short gaming session. If it takes 6 hours to get meaningfull progress that would not be considered casual, if meaningful progress can be obtained in half an hour, most would not consider that casual... regardless of how long it takes to cap.
Difficulty of the game does not relate to meaningful progress in short periods.
Edited for grammer
edit - Istaria has about a dozen different crafting school and a dozen different adventuring schools (actually more I believe for both). It takes 3-6 months to get any class to max level, but it is not hard at all, yes there are some difficult things in the game, but overall the game is very very casual. I can get significant work done on leveling in whatever school or project I am working on in a short amount of time. Often it is very very boring work, but that is a different story. lvl 100 in 20+ schools = years and years and years of work.
Very very high skill, long term game, only short sessions required, not difficult at all.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by Holophonist Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Originally posted by Holophonist Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Originally posted by Holophonist Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Originally posted by Holophonist
Are you guys just not reading my posts? I've answered this. Yes people can play games however they want, however some games are more conducive to casual play; some games are more conducive to hardcore play. The question is what features facilitate which playstyle more. You can play a game with short play sessions in a hardcore way, yes? Then how do short play sessions make a game casual?
I would amend my stance to say the time a person dedicates to the game is what determines casual or hardcore. If the game allows meaningful progress in a short period of time it is more casual than a game that does not.
Therefore if a game has nothing but short game sessions it is not a hardcore game, ever, because IMO and IMO the view of most gamers the time is the requirement. However a person can still play that game in a hardcore way by playing many short play sessions. 20 15 minute sessions is still a long time.
A game being condusive to casual play or hardcore play is, as I said, determined by whether the game allows meaningful progress in a short period of time.
Difficulty can impact how much you get done in a given time.
I am never going to agree with you that difficulty determines casual or hardcore, nor do I think the majority of gamers believe that either.
Something difficult usually does take a long time to do, however there are often ways (actually almost without exception there are ways and those ways are implemented) to break it down into small chunks. Therefore a very difficult game can still be very casual.
Casual vs hardcore is the time you dedicate to a game.
Ugh. Look, if you're saying that the only thing that matters is how much an individual person devotes to the game then you're saying no game can be objectively more casual than another. However, you can still observe that certain games will be played in a more casual way than others. People in general play solitaire more casually than broodwar.
Here's why difficulty matters: it gives you more of a reason to play a game in a hardcore way. If a game is very easy, you're less likely to play it in a hardcore way.
And the games that are played in a casual manner obviously have what is considered meaningful progress in a short amount of time.
That is not why difficulty matters, that is only why it matters to you. Difficulty may give someone a reason to play the game, if may give someone a reason to play the game long term. It does not determine how much time is needed to play the game at any one time.
If you're now defining casual as being able to get something meaningful done in a short amount of time, then I'll mention again that difficulty plays a part in that.
regarding my last statement about difficulty: it's not just for me. It's about skill cap. If a game's mechanics are easy to master, that makes it that much less likely you're going to play the game long term. If a game has a high skill cap mechanically, that's more conducive to longterm, hardcore playstyles.
Thats how we've always defined it. I only added, or possibly changed it to state that it is the time the players dedicate to it meaning that the player can get something meangfull done in a short period of time. They can still play longer, however it is not needed to be meaningfull, they just want to.
And no difficulty does not play a part. Difficulty defines how hard the game is, it may define how long the game is, it does not define how much meaningful progress can be made during any particular gaming sessions. A game can be very very hard and still have something signficant done in half an hour.
A game can be very easy and still take a very very very long time. How how the skill cap is (in MMO games we are typically not talking about twitch skill) has nothing do with difficulty.
A game that takes to reach skill cap can still be casual or hardcore if there is meaningful progress in whatever the person is doing during a short gaming session. If it takes 6 hours to get meaningfull progress that would not be considered casual, if meaningful progress can be obtained in half an hour, most would not consider that casual... regardless of how long it takes to cap.
Difficulty of the game does not relate to meaningful progress in short periods.
Edited for grammer
How much you achieve is a function of the rewards they give you for completing a task, and the length of the task. The length of the task is partly determined by how hard it is. If you fail, you have to try again. If you keep missing your window to hit an enemy in dark souls, it'll take longer. The difficulty affects the length of tasks so it affects how much you can achieve in a short amount of time.
How much you achieve is a function of the rewards they give you for completing a task, and the length of the task. The length of the task is partly determined by how hard it is. If you fail, you have to try again. If you keep missing your window to hit an enemy in dark souls, it'll take longer. The difficulty affects the length of tasks so it affects how much you can achieve in a short amount of time.
Achievement, rewards and meaningfull progress are all different, they can be related, they can be totally different.
The length of a task and the difficulty of the task are different, they can be related and they can be totally different. You can have very difficult tasks done in short periods of time, you can have very difficult tasks that take a long time. You can have easy tasks that take a long time and easy tasks that take a short time.
Most difficult and long term tasks are broken up into smaller tasks that don't take as long, they can and are done in short peridos of time.
I've actually never seen a very difficult, long term quest or task or anything actually in game or in RL, that did not allow me to do meaningfull chunks in short periods of time.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
How much you achieve is a function of the rewards they give you for completing a task, and the length of the task. The length of the task is partly determined by how hard it is. If you fail, you have to try again. If you keep missing your window to hit an enemy in dark souls, it'll take longer. The difficulty affects the length of tasks so it affects how much you can achieve in a short amount of time.
So it's subjective if something is hardcore or not? You can't actually label a game hardcore.
You wouldn't label DS a hardcore game if you breezed through it without a problem. Even then you can still be hardcore with DS by just playing it over and over as you find it fun.
Fun is what has caused me to be hardcore as a non-competitive player.
A competitive player, if you want to be the best at SC2 your gonna have to play hardcore, no choice.
If your not competitive you can still play it casual.
Comments
What do YOU mean by hardcore? Hardcore does NOT mean something is hard or easy. It has NOTHING to do with ones skill level.
So please enlighten me why some people class BE, TFC, Darkfall and UO as "hardcore". Is it just because they find it hard (so very subjective, not fact) or they play it to extreme levels?
Apparently we are off topic and I'm sure I have discussed this before on this site.
What do YOU mean by hardcore? Hardcore does NOT mean something is hard or easy. It has NOTHING to do with ones skill level.
So please enlighten me why some people class BE, TFC, Darkfall and UO as "hardcore". Is it just because they find it hard (so very subjective, not fact) or they play it to extreme levels?
Apparently we are off topic and I'm sure I have discussed this before on this site.
I think it's many different things. Ultimately it just means whatever that type of player will like. Casual players like to be able to get things done in short amounts of time, I can buy that. But they also like to feel powerful in short amounts of time. This is one of the reasons LoL is so popular among casual players. It's not mechanically difficult to jump out of a bush and gank a guy. Contrast this with a more difficult game like SC2 where it is mechanically difficult to do anything in that game... even looking around your base regardless of what you're opponent is doing.single player games are no exception. It's not a coincidence that games are appealing more to casual players and also becoming easier and more forgiving.
I think its you that is not understanding the definition of hardcore.
Hearthstone is a very causal game, but will you call it casual to those players that play it hours and hours building their own decks and testing them and using them to compete. Nope, those players are playing Hearthstone hardcore. The dedication they put themselves in made the games hardcore.
I played Darksoul casually, but still it was a very punishing game because I was just not very used to it, bosses were extremely hard to me atleast so Its Hard not Hardcore. I didn't lose sleep over the game, I just didn't play it till a couple days later and tried again and again until I beaten one boss then waited for another few days till I attempt the next one.
LOL is a very casual game to me, I didn't spent hours learning my build, I log in, play for a few hours then I am out. But for others, they spend hours and hours learning their build, learning what items they need to succeed and working on their Minion last hits. They are hardcore players for that game, but that game is not hard to play.
Games will be what the player want it to be, but if there is a hard MMO out there, I think the achievements in those games will be worth the time people invest in them. But Hard is not Hardcore.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
It's all down to the player if he wants to take it to hardcore levels.
Games never dictate whether you have to play the game hardcore or not.
Even with perma-death you can actually play casual. Just start from the beginning again.
I also play SC2 casually, it doesn't take a lot of time to learn the basics. Once upon a time I was hardcore when playing SC , I trained with my friends learning how to minimize the amount of time to build, how to defend and how to attack efficiently. But I got out of college and I play it casually now. Does that make SC a casual or Hardcore game, because it was both to me.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Here's the thing. The world and everything in it is constantly in a state of change, between what was and what will be. What something is only lasts for a moment. We can remember those moments, but that's all because those moments are gone.
The MMO genre as a whole is no different from everything else in the world. It is not what it was because it is always becoming what it will be. The only way for the genre to become what it was, and then stay that way would be to kill it.
So, no, players today do not "get the point" of the MMO genre as it was ten years ago. Why should they? Of what use is that knowledge for someone who gets the point of the MMO genre as it is right now?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I like this idea that the difference between casual and hardcore is mostly determined at the player level, not the game level. Someone can play SC2 or LoL casually. Someone can play Dark Souls as a casual player. There are hardcore Farmville players. Well, maybe not now, but there were.
This is so totally off topic, but still, it's nice to see something presented from a different perspective than the accepted one.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
There's a big difference between Hardcore/Casual and Hard/Easy.
That's why this debate is pretty silly. What you find hard, some one will find easy.
So the many people who classify difficult games like dark souls as being hardcore are wrong?Depends what levels he's playing it.
Hardcore is like the phrase diehard, having an extreme dedication to a certain activity. If they are playing DS to that extent then yes, they are hardcore.
Are people thinking it means hard as the first four letters spell hard in hardcore? I hope not.
You're not grasping the point of the discussion I think. People can play games casually or hardcore. The question is what qualities to facilitate each. Or more importantly, what qualities attract which kind of player.I think its you that is not understanding the definition of hardcore.
Hearthstone is a very causal game, but will you call it casual to those players that play it hours and hours building their own decks and testing them and using them to compete. Nope, those players are playing Hearthstone hardcore. The dedication they put themselves in made the games hardcore.
I played Darksoul casually, but still it was a very punishing game because I was just not very used to it, bosses were extremely hard to me atleast so Its Hard not Hardcore. I didn't lose sleep over the game, I just didn't play it till a couple days later and tried again and again until I beaten one boss then waited for another few days till I attempt the next one.
LOL is a very casual game to me, I didn't spent hours learning my build, I log in, play for a few hours then I am out. But for others, they spend hours and hours learning their build, learning what items they need to succeed and working on their Minion last hits. They are hardcore players for that game, but that game is not hard to play.
Games will be what the player want it to be, but if there is a hard MMO out there, I think the achievements in those games will be worth the time people invest in them. But Hard is not Hardcore.
Are you guys just not reading my posts? I've answered this. Yes people can play games however they want, however some games are more conducive to casual play; some games are more conducive to hardcore play. The question is what features facilitate which playstyle more. You can play a game with short play sessions in a hardcore way, yes? Then how do short play sessions make a game casual?There's a big difference between Hardcore/Casual and Hard/Easy.
That's why this debate is pretty silly. What you find hard, some one will find easy.
So the many people who classify difficult games like dark souls as being hardcore are wrong?Depends what levels he's playing it.
Hardcore is like the phrase diehard, having an extreme dedication to a certain activity. If they are playing DS to that extent then yes, they are hardcore.
Are people thinking it means hard as the first four letters spell hard in hardcore? I hope not.
You're not grasping the point of the discussion I think. People can play games casually or hardcore. The question is what qualities to facilitate each. Or more importantly, what qualities attract which kind of player.It's all down to the player if he wants to take it to hardcore levels.
Games never dictate whether you have to play the game hardcore or not.
Even with perma-death you can actually play casual. Just start from the beginning again.
Yes and some games are more conducive to hardcore play. For instance not as many people play solitaire in a hardcore way as broodwar or quake live.I would amend my stance to say the time a person dedicates to the game is what determines casual or hardcore. If the game allows meaningful progress in a short period of time it is more casual than a game that does not.
Therefore if a game has nothing but short game sessions it is not a hardcore game, ever, because IMO and IMO the view of most gamers the time is the requirement. However a person can still play that game in a hardcore way by playing many short play sessions. 20 15 minute sessions is still a long time.
A game being condusive to casual play or hardcore play is, as I said, determined by whether the game allows meaningful progress in a short period of time.
Are you guys just not reading my posts? I've answered this. Yes people can play games however they want, however some games are more conducive to casual play; some games are more conducive to hardcore play. The question is what features facilitate which playstyle more. You can play a game with short play sessions in a hardcore way, yes? Then how do short play sessions make a game casual?I would amend my stance to say the time a person dedicates to the game is what determines casual or hardcore. If the game allows meaningful progress in a short period of time it is more casual than a game that does not.
Therefore if a game has nothing but short game sessions it is not a hardcore game, ever, because IMO and IMO the view of most gamers the time is the requirement. However a person can still play that game in a hardcore way by playing many short play sessions. 20 15 minute sessions is still a long time.
A game being condusive to casual play or hardcore play is, as I said, determined by whether the game allows meaningful progress in a short period of time.
Difficulty can impact how much you get done in a given time.SC2 is the epitome of casual as games can last 5 minutes. However you can also play it hardcore. It has nothing to do with mechanics IMO. It has very simple mechanics.
Same with chess. Another very casual game but can be played hardcore if you choose. Again has very simple mechanics.
Me thinking the mechanics are simple is purely subjective I know.
I am never going to agree with you that difficulty determines casual or hardcore, nor do I think the majority of gamers believe that either.
Something difficult usually does take a long time to do, however there are often ways (actually almost without exception there are ways and those ways are implemented) to break it down into small chunks. Therefore a very difficult game can still be very casual.
Casual vs hardcore is the time you dedicate to a game.
Are you guys just not reading my posts? I've answered this. Yes people can play games however they want, however some games are more conducive to casual play; some games are more conducive to hardcore play. The question is what features facilitate which playstyle more. You can play a game with short play sessions in a hardcore way, yes? Then how do short play sessions make a game casual?I would amend my stance to say the time a person dedicates to the game is what determines casual or hardcore. If the game allows meaningful progress in a short period of time it is more casual than a game that does not.
Therefore if a game has nothing but short game sessions it is not a hardcore game, ever, because IMO and IMO the view of most gamers the time is the requirement. However a person can still play that game in a hardcore way by playing many short play sessions. 20 15 minute sessions is still a long time.
A game being condusive to casual play or hardcore play is, as I said, determined by whether the game allows meaningful progress in a short period of time.
Difficulty can impact how much you get done in a given time.I am never going to agree with you that difficulty determines casual or hardcore, nor do I think the majority of gamers believe that either.
Something difficult usually does take a long time to do, however there are often ways (actually almost without exception there are ways and those ways are implemented) to break it down into small chunks. Therefore a very difficult game can still be very casual.
Casual vs hardcore is the time you dedicate to a game.
Ugh. Look, if you're saying that the only thing that matters is how much an individual person devotes to the game then you're saying no game can be objectively more casual than another. However, you can still observe that certain games will be played in a more casual way than others. People in general play solitaire more casually than broodwar.Here's why difficulty matters: it gives you more of a reason to play a game in a hardcore way. If a game is very easy, you're less likely to play it in a hardcore way.
+1
SC2 is the epitome of casual as games can last 5 minutes. However you can also play it hardcore. It has nothing to do with mechanics IMO. It has very simple mechanics.
Same with chess. Another very casual game but can be played hardcore if you choose. Again has very simple mechanics.
Me thinking the mechanics are simple is purely subjective I know.
Right sc2 is the epitome of casual based on your definition. But sc2 is not a casual game. There was a huge push in the community to make the game more casual friendly to complete with LoL and NOBODY mentioned play time. When reality disagrees with your definition, it's time to change your definition.All RTS I have played since Dune 2/Warcraft 1 have been casual friendly, it's nothing new.
Actually how do you turn a casual friendly game more casual friendly? Make the game easier(which has nothing to do with hardcore/casual btw)
Also, why do I have to change my definition? Yours is obviously wrong.
The "older generation" of MMO gamers were in their early 20s when playing, before a serious career, family, etc. Virtual worlds that took a long time accomplish things are rewarding but if you don't have time, you don't have time. That's why in some cases there was a huge stigma towards MMOs, because they demanded you be addicted to them to succeed.
Once WoW started printing money it was over for x years. You can clearly see that by how many titles released year after year with mostly the same "system" and why now there are a sea of them, each now begging you to play and pay for something.
Not so many release nowadays because the well has dried up. The idea of customer retention has demanded attention in a F2P market and shallow themeparks are only good for a sugar rush. That's the good news as the idea of retaining customers should be important and this focus will benefit all.
Because of these elements present I think MMOs will get more involved, deeper and focus on longevity. That and cheaper dev alternatives like mobile games and MOBAs.
And the games that are played in a casual manner obviously have what is considered meaningful progress in a short amount of time.
That is not why difficulty matters, that is only why it matters to you. Difficulty may give someone a reason to play the game, if may give someone a reason to play the game long term. It does not determine how much time is needed to play the game at any one time.
SC2 is the epitome of casual as games can last 5 minutes. However you can also play it hardcore. It has nothing to do with mechanics IMO. It has very simple mechanics.
Same with chess. Another very casual game but can be played hardcore if you choose. Again has very simple mechanics.
Me thinking the mechanics are simple is purely subjective I know.
Right sc2 is the epitome of casual based on your definition. But sc2 is not a casual game. There was a huge push in the community to make the game more casual friendly to complete with LoL and NOBODY mentioned play time. When reality disagrees with your definition, it's time to change your definition.All RTS I have played since Dune 2/Warcraft 1 have been casual friendly, it's nothing new.
Actually how do you turn a casual friendly game more casual friendly? Make the game easier(which has nothing to do with hardcore/casual btw)
Also, why do I have to change my definition? Yours is obviously wrong.
No. The things they implemented were based around accessibility and making easier game modes. None of the changes were focused on game length.
Are you guys just not reading my posts? I've answered this. Yes people can play games however they want, however some games are more conducive to casual play; some games are more conducive to hardcore play. The question is what features facilitate which playstyle more. You can play a game with short play sessions in a hardcore way, yes? Then how do short play sessions make a game casual?I would amend my stance to say the time a person dedicates to the game is what determines casual or hardcore. If the game allows meaningful progress in a short period of time it is more casual than a game that does not.
Therefore if a game has nothing but short game sessions it is not a hardcore game, ever, because IMO and IMO the view of most gamers the time is the requirement. However a person can still play that game in a hardcore way by playing many short play sessions. 20 15 minute sessions is still a long time.
A game being condusive to casual play or hardcore play is, as I said, determined by whether the game allows meaningful progress in a short period of time.
Difficulty can impact how much you get done in a given time.I am never going to agree with you that difficulty determines casual or hardcore, nor do I think the majority of gamers believe that either.
Something difficult usually does take a long time to do, however there are often ways (actually almost without exception there are ways and those ways are implemented) to break it down into small chunks. Therefore a very difficult game can still be very casual.
Casual vs hardcore is the time you dedicate to a game.
Ugh. Look, if you're saying that the only thing that matters is how much an individual person devotes to the game then you're saying no game can be objectively more casual than another. However, you can still observe that certain games will be played in a more casual way than others. People in general play solitaire more casually than broodwar.Here's why difficulty matters: it gives you more of a reason to play a game in a hardcore way. If a game is very easy, you're less likely to play it in a hardcore way.
And the games that are played in a casual manner obviously have what is considered meaningful progress in a short amount of time.
That is not why difficulty matters, that is only why it matters to you. Difficulty may give someone a reason to play the game, if may give someone a reason to play the game long term. It does not determine how much time is needed to play the game at any one time.
If you're now defining casual as being able to get something meaningful done in a short amount of time, then I'll mention again that difficulty plays a part in that.regarding my last statement about difficulty: it's not just for me. It's about skill cap. If a game's mechanics are easy to master, that makes it that much less likely you're going to play the game long term. If a game has a high skill cap mechanically, that's more conducive to longterm, hardcore playstyles.
Thats how we've always defined it. I only added, or possibly changed it to state that it is the time the players dedicate to it meaning that the player can get something meangfull done in a short period of time. They can still play longer, however it is not needed to be meaningfull, they just want to.
And no difficulty does not play a part. Difficulty defines how hard the game is, it may define how long the game is, it does not define how much meaningful progress can be made during any particular gaming sessions. A game can be very very hard and still have something signficant done in half an hour.
A game can be very easy and still take a very very very long time. How high the skill cap is (in MMO games we are typically not talking about twitch skill) has nothing do with difficulty.
A game that takes to reach skill cap can still be casual or hardcore if there is meaningful progress in whatever the person is doing during a short gaming session. If it takes 6 hours to get meaningfull progress that would not be considered casual, if meaningful progress can be obtained in half an hour, most would not consider that casual... regardless of how long it takes to cap.
Difficulty of the game does not relate to meaningful progress in short periods.
Edited for grammer
edit - Istaria has about a dozen different crafting school and a dozen different adventuring schools (actually more I believe for both). It takes 3-6 months to get any class to max level, but it is not hard at all, yes there are some difficult things in the game, but overall the game is very very casual. I can get significant work done on leveling in whatever school or project I am working on in a short amount of time. Often it is very very boring work, but that is a different story. lvl 100 in 20+ schools = years and years and years of work.
Very very high skill, long term game, only short sessions required, not difficult at all.
Are you guys just not reading my posts? I've answered this. Yes people can play games however they want, however some games are more conducive to casual play; some games are more conducive to hardcore play. The question is what features facilitate which playstyle more. You can play a game with short play sessions in a hardcore way, yes? Then how do short play sessions make a game casual?I would amend my stance to say the time a person dedicates to the game is what determines casual or hardcore. If the game allows meaningful progress in a short period of time it is more casual than a game that does not.
Therefore if a game has nothing but short game sessions it is not a hardcore game, ever, because IMO and IMO the view of most gamers the time is the requirement. However a person can still play that game in a hardcore way by playing many short play sessions. 20 15 minute sessions is still a long time.
A game being condusive to casual play or hardcore play is, as I said, determined by whether the game allows meaningful progress in a short period of time.
Difficulty can impact how much you get done in a given time.I am never going to agree with you that difficulty determines casual or hardcore, nor do I think the majority of gamers believe that either.
Something difficult usually does take a long time to do, however there are often ways (actually almost without exception there are ways and those ways are implemented) to break it down into small chunks. Therefore a very difficult game can still be very casual.
Casual vs hardcore is the time you dedicate to a game.
Ugh. Look, if you're saying that the only thing that matters is how much an individual person devotes to the game then you're saying no game can be objectively more casual than another. However, you can still observe that certain games will be played in a more casual way than others. People in general play solitaire more casually than broodwar.Here's why difficulty matters: it gives you more of a reason to play a game in a hardcore way. If a game is very easy, you're less likely to play it in a hardcore way.
And the games that are played in a casual manner obviously have what is considered meaningful progress in a short amount of time.
That is not why difficulty matters, that is only why it matters to you. Difficulty may give someone a reason to play the game, if may give someone a reason to play the game long term. It does not determine how much time is needed to play the game at any one time.
If you're now defining casual as being able to get something meaningful done in a short amount of time, then I'll mention again that difficulty plays a part in that.regarding my last statement about difficulty: it's not just for me. It's about skill cap. If a game's mechanics are easy to master, that makes it that much less likely you're going to play the game long term. If a game has a high skill cap mechanically, that's more conducive to longterm, hardcore playstyles.
Thats how we've always defined it. I only added, or possibly changed it to state that it is the time the players dedicate to it meaning that the player can get something meangfull done in a short period of time. They can still play longer, however it is not needed to be meaningfull, they just want to.
And no difficulty does not play a part. Difficulty defines how hard the game is, it may define how long the game is, it does not define how much meaningful progress can be made during any particular gaming sessions. A game can be very very hard and still have something signficant done in half an hour.
A game can be very easy and still take a very very very long time. How how the skill cap is (in MMO games we are typically not talking about twitch skill) has nothing do with difficulty.
A game that takes to reach skill cap can still be casual or hardcore if there is meaningful progress in whatever the person is doing during a short gaming session. If it takes 6 hours to get meaningfull progress that would not be considered casual, if meaningful progress can be obtained in half an hour, most would not consider that casual... regardless of how long it takes to cap.
Difficulty of the game does not relate to meaningful progress in short periods.
Edited for grammer
How much you achieve is a function of the rewards they give you for completing a task, and the length of the task. The length of the task is partly determined by how hard it is. If you fail, you have to try again. If you keep missing your window to hit an enemy in dark souls, it'll take longer. The difficulty affects the length of tasks so it affects how much you can achieve in a short amount of time.Achievement, rewards and meaningfull progress are all different, they can be related, they can be totally different.
The length of a task and the difficulty of the task are different, they can be related and they can be totally different. You can have very difficult tasks done in short periods of time, you can have very difficult tasks that take a long time. You can have easy tasks that take a long time and easy tasks that take a short time.
Most difficult and long term tasks are broken up into smaller tasks that don't take as long, they can and are done in short peridos of time.
I've actually never seen a very difficult, long term quest or task or anything actually in game or in RL, that did not allow me to do meaningfull chunks in short periods of time.
So it's subjective if something is hardcore or not? You can't actually label a game hardcore.
You wouldn't label DS a hardcore game if you breezed through it without a problem. Even then you can still be hardcore with DS by just playing it over and over as you find it fun.
Fun is what has caused me to be hardcore as a non-competitive player.
A competitive player, if you want to be the best at SC2 your gonna have to play hardcore, no choice.
If your not competitive you can still play it casual.