Heh, the entire thread is just prove how correct the OP is. Indeed many miss the point. I agree with the OP.
MMos today are way too loopsided towards one or two sphere of gaming or pet peeves, instead of making a complete experience, and instead of making worlds with stuff for many types of players they focus on one or two and in that way games are too reduced, and it all comes down to pseudo-debates like "hardcore VS casual". I dunno, is anyone really feeling he fits into such narrow shoehorned concepts like pvp gamer, hardcore gamer, casual? I don't.
Alas, too many are following the PR phrases that this reduced vision of games is "as it should be" or "without alternatives". It's just an adoration of the status quo.
The OP posted a profound idea and perception, even if you don't agree, I think it is depressing and a bad sign of our times when 80% of the posters have NOTHING MORE to say calender trivialities like "it is as it is", "everything changes" or "if it exists, it does for a reason".
Don't you yourself find such answers cheap? I can not share such fatalistic devotion to the status quo of things, and neither should you. Is what we have really all good enough for you? If you enjoy McDonalds, fine, I don't mind, but don't tell me that McDonalds is all we all should ever eat because there IS no possible other food. There IS. And same counts for MMOs and games. They CAN be better, and by all means they SHOULD be.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I doubt anyone will agree on this. I don't think the original intent was lost. We more or less have pretty homogenized genre after the success of WoW. There is more to do than older games but its more of the same because the genre pushes the same game play core.
The debate on if this is what players want or not is moot. There hasn't really been any AAA games that do anything more than what WoW brought with a few twist to prove it or not. While there are more players playing MMORPGs, per game there isn't much change in the 500-200k people playing the average popular game even though some of them are "free." Many games released have dropped off the cliff after the first few months.
I think that when a good game comes out that's based on one of the older models the whole WoW like games is all anyone wants will be thrown out. What I mean by old style is a game thats not like WoW. I think people always are like players want EQ or UO with new graphics. At this point any game not like WoW is old style since it's all that's been made for past 8 years. I think people just want other branches of the genre to get chance again since basically everything was deserted to make a quick WoW buck. It has defined the genre since then.
Speak just for yourself. Do not assume to speak for everyone, because you don't.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Heh, the entire thread is just prove how correct the OP is. Indeed many miss the point. I agree with the OP.
MMos today are way too loopsided towards one or two sphere of gaming or pet peeves, instead of making a complete experience, and instead of making worlds with stuff for many types of players they focus on one or two and in that way games are too reduced, and it all comes down to pseudo-debates like "hardcore VS casual". I dunno, is anyone really feeling he fits into such narrow shoehorned concepts like pvp gamer, hardcore gamer, casual? I don't.
Alas, too many are following the PR phrases that this reduced vision of games is "as it should be" or "without alternatives". It's just an adoration of the status quo.
The OP posted a profound idea and perception, even if you don't agree, I think it is depressing and a bad sign of our times when 80% of the posters have NOTHING MORE to say calender trivialities like "it is as it is", "everything changes" or "if it exists, it does for a reason".
Don't you yourself find such answers cheap? I can not share such fatalistic devotion to the status quo of things, and neither should you. Is what we have really all good enough for you? If you enjoy McDonalds, fine, I don't mind, but don't tell me that McDonalds is all we all should ever eat because there IS no possible other food. There IS. And same counts for MMOs and games. They CAN be better, and by all means they SHOULD be.
What if I didn't get any world feel in the first place? Having played much before sampling MMORPGs, I thought the gameplay was abysmal and boring. The novelty of playing a videogame RPG with you friends quickly wore off when you realized just how banal the activities in those games. Its the grind, the trinity and the unnecessary timesinks. Why?
I had much more fun playing pen & paper RPGs at that time and I would never want to go back to old-school. Holy shit they were bad games back then.
And the fastfood metaphor is a troll-bait.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Heh, the entire thread is just prove how correct the OP is. Indeed many miss the point. I agree with the OP.
MMos today are way too loopsided towards one or two sphere of gaming or pet peeves, instead of making a complete experience, and instead of making worlds with stuff for many types of players they focus on one or two and in that way games are too reduced, and it all comes down to pseudo-debates like "hardcore VS casual". I dunno, is anyone really feeling he fits into such narrow shoehorned concepts like pvp gamer, hardcore gamer, casual? I don't.
Alas, too many are following the PR phrases that this reduced vision of games is "as it should be" or "without alternatives". It's just an adoration of the status quo.
The OP posted a profound idea and perception, even if you don't agree, I think it is depressing and a bad sign of our times when 80% of the posters have NOTHING MORE to say calender trivialities like "it is as it is", "everything changes" or "if it exists, it does for a reason".
Don't you yourself find such answers cheap? I can not share such fatalistic devotion to the status quo of things, and neither should you. Is what we have really all good enough for you? If you enjoy McDonalds, fine, I don't mind, but don't tell me that McDonalds is all we all should ever eat because there IS no possible other food. There IS. And same counts for MMOs and games. They CAN be better, and by all means they SHOULD be.
What if I didn't get any world feel in the first place? Having played much before sampling MMORPGs, I thought the gameplay was abysmal and boring. The novelty of playing a videogame RPG with you friends quickly wore off when you realized just how banal the activities in those games. Its the grind, the trinity and the unnecessary timesinks. Why?
I had much more fun playing pen & paper RPGs at that time and I would never want to go back to old-school. Holy shit they were bad games back then.
And the fastfood metaphor is a troll-bait.
It is my OPINION. Deal with it.
Trolling is, when I fake an opinion to anger people. You may not LIKE the metaphor, but it sill IS my opinion.
You are just reading into the OP's post things which he never said. He didn't want MMos 2013 EXACTLY as back in EQ. But some things were on a better road as today, where some things just get overly easy and riskless. It is exactly that kind of thinking which must go, this black and white, like games can either only be like EQ 1999 or super-easy themeparks. It is not so much about one given game or game system, but a broarder perspective of looking at games.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Trolling is, when I fake an opinion to anger people. You may not LIKE the metaphor, but it sill IS my opinion.
You are just reading into the OP's post things which he never said. He didn't want MMos 2013 EXACTLY as back in EQ. But some things were on a better road as today, where some things just get overly easy and riskless. It is exactly that kind of thinking which must go, this black and white, like games can either only be like EQ 1999 or super-easy themeparks. It is not so much about one given game or game system, but a broarder perspective of looking at games.
You talk about "super-easy themeparks" and blame me for black & white thinking? I have a broader perspective on gaming and I don't think old-school games were anything special.
Much of what is said is looking back with rose-colored glasses.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
its been overly steamlined where features and conveniences slowly remove gameplay, challenges, community, downtime, unique starting areas, open worlds, travel, etc. My belief why players request for streamed line gaming the progression mechanisms in the game become redundant and just road blocks to the end game and have no value to the players.
Removing ....
gameplay - sure .. remove the boring (to me) gameplay like slow travel, or looking for group
challenges - this is not good ... but there are still hard mode stuff, and games like PoE (which is listed as a MMO here) is pretty challenging
community - i don't play games for community
downtime - good .. the less the better (for me)
unique starting areas - well ... more content is better ... so i agree with this one
open world - meh ... instanced gameplay is better (for me)
travel - i don't play games to walk around .. so yeah!
... and progression mechanism redundant? Just see ARPGs for streamline gameplay and nothing but progression. It can be done ... MMORPGs can learn from ARPGs. Just put in random dungeons, and good loot system.
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal I doubt anyone will agree on this. I don't think the original intent was lost. We more or less have pretty homogenized genre after the success of WoW. There is more to do than older games but its more of the same because the genre pushes the same game play core. The debate on if this is what players want or not is moot. There hasn't really been any AAA games that do anything more than what WoW brought with a few twist to prove it or not. While there are more players playing MMORPGs, per game there isn't much change in the 500-200k people playing the average popular game even though some of them are "free." Many games released have dropped off the cliff after the first few months. I think that when a good game comes out that's based on one of the older models the whole WoW like games is all anyone wants will be thrown out. What I mean by old style is a game thats not like WoW. I think people always are like players want EQ or UO with new graphics. At this point any game not like WoW is old style since it's all that's been made for past 8 years. I think people just want other branches of the genre to get chance again since basically everything was deserted to make a quick WoW buck. It has defined the genre since then.
Speak just for yourself. Do not assume to speak for everyone, because you don't.
So basically you prove my point nobody's going to agree with want they want and pretty much players don't want the norm?
Originally posted by Elikal Originally posted by Quirhid
It is my OPINION. Deal with it.
Trolling is, when I fake an opinion to anger people. You may not LIKE the metaphor, but it sill IS my opinion.
You are just reading into the OP's post things which he never said. He didn't want MMos 2013 EXACTLY as back in EQ. But some things were on a better road as today, where some things just get overly easy and riskless. It is exactly that kind of thinking which must go, this black and white, like games can either only be like EQ 1999 or super-easy themeparks. It is not so much about one given game or game system, but a broarder perspective of looking at games.
You talk about "super-easy themeparks" and blame me for black & white thinking? I have a broader perspective on gaming and I don't think old-school games were anything special.
Much of what is said is looking back with rose-colored glasses.
It's not rose tinted glasses (I guess it could be for some). MMOs... heck, games in general, have become much more popular. They're trying to appeal to a more casual kind of gamer. In order to do that they've made the games easier. They've made them more forgiving. Overcoming adversity is a pretty central role in gaming. It's what gives us a sense of accomplishment. This isn't just nostalgia. Games are different. Again, there's a reason why the amount of people playing games I'd going up.
its been overly steamlined where features and conveniences slowly remove gameplay, challenges, community, downtime, unique starting areas, open worlds, travel, etc. My belief why players request for streamed line gaming the progression mechanisms in the game become redundant and just road blocks to the end game and have no value to the players.
Removing ....
gameplay - sure .. remove the boring (to me) gameplay like slow travel, or looking for group
challenges - this is not good ... but there are still hard mode stuff, and games like PoE (which is listed as a MMO here) is pretty challenging
community - i don't play games for community
downtime - good .. the less the better (for me)
unique starting areas - well ... more content is better ... so i agree with this one
open world - meh ... instanced gameplay is better (for me)
travel - i don't play games to walk around .. so yeah!
... and progression mechanism redundant? Just see ARPGs for streamline gameplay and nothing but progression. It can be done ... MMORPGs can learn from ARPGs. Just put in random dungeons, and good loot system.
I don't really know what your desire is because apparently your MMORPG needs arr being meet. But for those waiting for change the genre is lacking.
I know what people want; they want to repeat their first experience of an mmo. People become world-weary as they get older; it is why time seems to speed up; because there are fewer new experiences and less of your faculties/ attention required to comprehend them. Those early experiences of new things are usually the best.
Originally posted by Elikal Originally posted by Quirhid
It is my OPINION. Deal with it.
Trolling is, when I fake an opinion to anger people. You may not LIKE the metaphor, but it sill IS my opinion.
You are just reading into the OP's post things which he never said. He didn't want MMos 2013 EXACTLY as back in EQ. But some things were on a better road as today, where some things just get overly easy and riskless. It is exactly that kind of thinking which must go, this black and white, like games can either only be like EQ 1999 or super-easy themeparks. It is not so much about one given game or game system, but a broarder perspective of looking at games.
You talk about "super-easy themeparks" and blame me for black & white thinking? I have a broader perspective on gaming and I don't think old-school games were anything special.
Much of what is said is looking back with rose-colored glasses.
It's not rose tinted glasses (I guess it could be for some). MMOs... heck, games in general, have become much more popular. They're trying to appeal to a more casual kind of gamer. In order to do that they've made the games easier. They've made them more forgiving. Overcoming adversity is a pretty central role in gaming. It's what gives us a sense of accomplishment. This isn't just nostalgia. Games are different. Again, there's a reason why the amount of people playing games I'd going up.
More people play because access is better. My phone has more power and better Internet connection than my UO computer. Its not all just casual games because even that is misleading because I know people who play Candy Crush as "hardcore."
I know what people want; they want to repeat their first experience of an mmo. People become world-weary as they get older; it is why time seems to speed up; because there are fewer new experiences and less of your faculties/ attention required to comprehend them. Those early experiences of new things are usually the best. Oh to be young again!
Early experiences shape your preferences of course. But it's not an unattainable thing to want to recapture those feelings. Dark Souls did it for me in single player games. It's basically like saying I can't like brunettes simply because my first kiss was with a brunette.
If you dont like what is today don't blame the current genrations its prolly the first mmo generation who couse this demise.
I dare you with this analyses:I think the OLDER GENERATIONS of gamers are to blame for what we have now.
You just can't say its fault of newer genration becouse there NEW they dont even know whats going on they just start playing with ZERO KNOWLEDGE of the past(well majority) how can they be blamed for the crap released today?
You can't.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
So we went from 'Old school MMOs made more money back in the day' to 'old school MMOs make less money but it cost less to make!'
Yeah... Hear that sound of the goal post moving?
Whatever number F2P are, the games still make more money and have more players playing.
Old school MMOs had a small number of players playing their game and make small $$$.
New school MMOs has a large number of players playing their game and make large $$$.
Facts are facts and lets not re-write history that's not even a decade old.
No. What I'm saying is that old MMOs could make more money with less subscribers because their costs were much less: Profit=revenue-costs. Raise the costs and you will need more revenue to make the same profit. It's not complicated. You are also still ignoring that most MMOs don't have subs anymore but F2P players and the value of one in business terms is greater than the value of the other.
It's not rose tinted glasses (I guess it could be for some). MMOs... heck, games in general, have become much more popular. They're trying to appeal to a more casual kind of gamer. In order to do that they've made the games easier. They've made them more forgiving. Overcoming adversity is a pretty central role in gaming. It's what gives us a sense of accomplishment. This isn't just nostalgia. Games are different. Again, there's a reason why the amount of people playing games I'd going up.
But making a game casual is not the same as "make it easy". It is as silly a notion as making a game hard is the same as getting rid of tutorials and documentation.
It is why participating in these discussions is like pulling teeth: Many people cannot make a distinction between complexity and depth, arduous and hard, casual-friendly and easy.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
MMOs is a relatively recent genre, lets not rewrite history so soon.
And please do tell which 'old MMOs' had more than 250k? UO / EQ?
So 500k vs 7.5 Million
Like I said.. LOLWUT
WoW is a special case. No one would argue that it isn't by far the most successful MMO in history (and this coming from someone who really dislikes WoW...).
But for the others, you can't compare a F2P to a sub-based game as though the numbers mean the same thing. F2P needs a much bigger pool of players to get the same kind of money since most people wont pay a cent for F2P. Most games go F2P in desperation when their sub base starts shrinking (GW2 is also a bit of a special case but we'll see how many people buy the expansion. Lots of people got on board the hype train and were at least somewhat let down by the actual game. But if you want to call that one a financial success I'll give you that...)
You also need to look at costs of production which so many people seem to ignore. The early games were relatively cheap to create and produce content for. Newer MMOs, on the other hand, cost a fortune to make which means they have to pull in a lot more money just to break even. A game with SWTOR's budget has to be a runaway success in terms of revenue in order to start generating any profit at all. It is one of the most expensive games ever made.
So we went from 'Old school MMOs made more money back in the day' to 'old school MMOs make less money but it cost less to make!'
Yeah... Hear that sound of the goal post moving?
Whatever number F2P are, the games still make more money and have more players playing.
Old school MMOs had a small number of players playing their game and make small $$$.
New school MMOs has a large number of players playing their game and make large $$$.
Facts are facts and lets not re-write history that's not even a decade old.
I'd like to see you prove that outside of 2 or 3 specific, popular titles examples.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
MMOs is a relatively recent genre, lets not rewrite history so soon.
And please do tell which 'old MMOs' had more than 250k? UO / EQ?
So 500k vs 7.5 Million
Like I said.. LOLWUT
WoW is a special case. No one would argue that it isn't by far the most successful MMO in history (and this coming from someone who really dislikes WoW...).
But for the others, you can't compare a F2P to a sub-based game as though the numbers mean the same thing. F2P needs a much bigger pool of players to get the same kind of money since most people wont pay a cent for F2P. Most games go F2P in desperation when their sub base starts shrinking (GW2 is also a bit of a special case but we'll see how many people buy the expansion. Lots of people got on board the hype train and were at least somewhat let down by the actual game. But if you want to call that one a financial success I'll give you that...)
You also need to look at costs of production which so many people seem to ignore. The early games were relatively cheap to create and produce content for. Newer MMOs, on the other hand, cost a fortune to make which means they have to pull in a lot more money just to break even. A game with SWTOR's budget has to be a runaway success in terms of revenue in order to start generating any profit at all. It is one of the most expensive games ever made.
So we went from 'Old school MMOs made more money back in the day' to 'old school MMOs make less money but it cost less to make!'
Yeah... Hear that sound of the goal post moving?
Whatever number F2P are, the games still make more money and have more players playing.
Old school MMOs had a small number of players playing their game and make small $$$.
New school MMOs has a large number of players playing their game and make large $$$.
Facts are facts and lets not re-write history that's not even a decade old.
I'd like to see you prove that outside of 2 or 3 specific, popular titles examples.
Wouldn't that be true for old school games too?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
So we went from 'Old school MMOs made more money back in the day' to 'old school MMOs make less money but it cost less to make!'
Yeah... Hear that sound of the goal post moving?
Whatever number F2P are, the games still make more money and have more players playing.
Old school MMOs had a small number of players playing their game and make small $$$.
New school MMOs has a large number of players playing their game and make large $$$.
Facts are facts and lets not re-write history that's not even a decade old.
No. What I'm saying is that old MMOs could make more money with less subscribers because their costs were much less: Profit=revenue-costs. Raise the costs and you will need more revenue to make the same profit. It's not complicated. You are also still ignoring that most MMOs don't have subs anymore but F2P players and the value of one in business terms is greater than the value of the other.
The increased costs mainly come from general progress in hardware and connection speeds which enable vastly improved graphics. It is the same for console single-players as mmo's.
I know what people want; they want to repeat their first experience of an mmo. People become world-weary as they get older; it is why time seems to speed up; because there are fewer new experiences and less of your faculties/ attention required to comprehend them. Those early experiences of new things are usually the best.
Oh to be young again!
Early experiences shape your preferences of course. But it's not an unattainable thing to want to recapture those feelings. Dark Souls did it for me in single player games. It's basically like saying I can't like brunettes simply because my first kiss was with a brunette.
No, it's not like saying that at all. It's saying once you've kissed her, you'll never have that blissful ignorance and expectation with anyone else. Every kiss after that will always be compaired mentally to the first one. You can never have a second first kiss.
It doesn't mean the second, third or forth wont be good. It just can never be the same. Same goes for mmos....and everything else.
It's not rose tinted glasses (I guess it could be for some). MMOs... heck, games in general, have become much more popular. They're trying to appeal to a more casual kind of gamer. In order to do that they've made the games easier. They've made them more forgiving. Overcoming adversity is a pretty central role in gaming. It's what gives us a sense of accomplishment. This isn't just nostalgia. Games are different. Again, there's a reason why the amount of people playing games I'd going up.
But making a game casual is not the same as "make it easy". It is as silly a notion as making a game hard is the same as getting rid of tutorials and documentation.
It is why participating in these discussions is like pulling teeth: Many people cannot make a distinction between complexity and depth, arduous and hard, casual-friendly and easy.
Originally posted by Elikal Originally posted by Quirhid
It is my OPINION. Deal with it.
Trolling is, when I fake an opinion to anger people. You may not LIKE the metaphor, but it sill IS my opinion.
You are just reading into the OP's post things which he never said. He didn't want MMos 2013 EXACTLY as back in EQ. But some things were on a better road as today, where some things just get overly easy and riskless. It is exactly that kind of thinking which must go, this black and white, like games can either only be like EQ 1999 or super-easy themeparks. It is not so much about one given game or game system, but a broarder perspective of looking at games.
You talk about "super-easy themeparks" and blame me for black & white thinking? I have a broader perspective on gaming and I don't think old-school games were anything special.
Much of what is said is looking back with rose-colored glasses.
It's not rose tinted glasses (I guess it could be for some). MMOs... heck, games in general, have become much more popular. They're trying to appeal to a more casual kind of gamer. In order to do that they've made the games easier. They've made them more forgiving. Overcoming adversity is a pretty central role in gaming. It's what gives us a sense of accomplishment. This isn't just nostalgia. Games are different. Again, there's a reason why the amount of people playing games I'd going up.
More people play because access is better. My phone has more power and better Internet connection than my UO computer. Its not all just casual games because even that is misleading because I know people who play Candy Crush as "hardcore."
Of course access helps but that shouldn't really matter in console gaming. Since the ps1 the consoles have been relatively close in terms of price adjusted for inflation.
similarly with mmos, I don't remember there being a particularly significant change in computer hardware prices/power that coincided with wow's release. I'm sure access can explain some of the trend upwards but there's no doubt they're going after a broader playerbase.
Originally posted by Holophonist Originally posted by Quirhid
It's not rose tinted glasses (I guess it could be for some). MMOs... heck, games in general, have become much more popular. They're trying to appeal to a more casual kind of gamer. In order to do that they've made the games easier. They've made them more forgiving. Overcoming adversity is a pretty central role in gaming. It's what gives us a sense of accomplishment. This isn't just nostalgia. Games are different. Again, there's a reason why the amount of people playing games I'd going up.
But making a game casual is not the same as "make it easy". It is as silly a notion as making a game hard is the same as getting rid of tutorials and documentation.
It is why participating in these discussions is like pulling teeth: Many people cannot make a distinction between complexity and depth, arduous and hard, casual-friendly and easy.
Except you and I have been through this before and you just end up getting out of dodge. You can't separate complexity from depth and you can't separate ease from casual.
if I recall, our last discussion about games being casual friendly had you claiming that it was all about the length of play sessions. You claimed sc2 was more casual friendly than LoL because the games were shorter. A simply ridiculous claim. Casual friendly games go at least somewhat hand in hand with forgiving gameplay and easy gameplay.
Originally posted by Holophonist Originally posted by LittleBoot I know what people want; they want to repeat their first experience of an mmo. People become world-weary as they get older; it is why time seems to speed up; because there are fewer new experiences and less of your faculties/ attention required to comprehend them. Those early experiences of new things are usually the best. Oh to be young again!
Early experiences shape your preferences of course. But it's not an unattainable thing to want to recapture those feelings. Dark Souls did it for me in single player games. It's basically like saying I can't like brunettes simply because my first kiss was with a brunette.
No, it's not like saying that at all. It's saying once you've kissed her, you'll never have that blissful ignorance and expectation with anyone else. Every kiss after that will always be compaired mentally to the first one. You can never have a second first kiss.
It doesn't mean the second, third or forth wont be good. It just can never be the same. Same goes for mmos....and everything else.
Sometimes I think you guys argue just to argue because this is quite obviously wrong once you think about it. We're not saying we want to play an MMO that is our first MMO. We're saying we want one like that. How is my analogy incorrect?
It's not rose tinted glasses (I guess it could be for some). MMOs... heck, games in general, have become much more popular. They're trying to appeal to a more casual kind of gamer. In order to do that they've made the games easier. They've made them more forgiving. Overcoming adversity is a pretty central role in gaming. It's what gives us a sense of accomplishment. This isn't just nostalgia. Games are different. Again, there's a reason why the amount of people playing games I'd going up.
But making a game casual is not the same as "make it easy". It is as silly a notion as making a game hard is the same as getting rid of tutorials and documentation.
It is why participating in these discussions is like pulling teeth: Many people cannot make a distinction between complexity and depth, arduous and hard, casual-friendly and easy.
Except you and I have been through this before and you just end up getting out of dodge. You can't separate complexity from depth and you can't separate ease from casual.
if I recall, our last discussion about games being casual friendly had you claiming that it was all about the length of play sessions. You claimed sc2 was more casual friendly than LoL because the games were shorter. A simply ridiculous claim. Casual friendly games go at least somewhat hand in hand with forgiving gameplay and easy gameplay.
I am inclined to agree. Chess or Bridge are complex, hard and certainly not casual friendly; they require time and practice to master. Top Trumps is easy and shallow. Most other (board) games fit somewhere on a spectrum between the two.
That is the way games work, you increase depth by increasing the options available to the player which requires increased complexity; arduous and hard are synonymous; to be casual-friendly it needs to be grasped and accessible in short bursts and therefore easy.
Comments
Heh, the entire thread is just prove how correct the OP is. Indeed many miss the point. I agree with the OP.
MMos today are way too loopsided towards one or two sphere of gaming or pet peeves, instead of making a complete experience, and instead of making worlds with stuff for many types of players they focus on one or two and in that way games are too reduced, and it all comes down to pseudo-debates like "hardcore VS casual". I dunno, is anyone really feeling he fits into such narrow shoehorned concepts like pvp gamer, hardcore gamer, casual? I don't.
Alas, too many are following the PR phrases that this reduced vision of games is "as it should be" or "without alternatives". It's just an adoration of the status quo.
The OP posted a profound idea and perception, even if you don't agree, I think it is depressing and a bad sign of our times when 80% of the posters have NOTHING MORE to say calender trivialities like "it is as it is", "everything changes" or "if it exists, it does for a reason".
Don't you yourself find such answers cheap? I can not share such fatalistic devotion to the status quo of things, and neither should you. Is what we have really all good enough for you? If you enjoy McDonalds, fine, I don't mind, but don't tell me that McDonalds is all we all should ever eat because there IS no possible other food. There IS. And same counts for MMOs and games. They CAN be better, and by all means they SHOULD be.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Speak just for yourself. Do not assume to speak for everyone, because you don't.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
What if I didn't get any world feel in the first place? Having played much before sampling MMORPGs, I thought the gameplay was abysmal and boring. The novelty of playing a videogame RPG with you friends quickly wore off when you realized just how banal the activities in those games. Its the grind, the trinity and the unnecessary timesinks. Why?
I had much more fun playing pen & paper RPGs at that time and I would never want to go back to old-school. Holy shit they were bad games back then.
And the fastfood metaphor is a troll-bait.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
It is my OPINION. Deal with it.
Trolling is, when I fake an opinion to anger people. You may not LIKE the metaphor, but it sill IS my opinion.
You are just reading into the OP's post things which he never said. He didn't want MMos 2013 EXACTLY as back in EQ. But some things were on a better road as today, where some things just get overly easy and riskless. It is exactly that kind of thinking which must go, this black and white, like games can either only be like EQ 1999 or super-easy themeparks. It is not so much about one given game or game system, but a broarder perspective of looking at games.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
You talk about "super-easy themeparks" and blame me for black & white thinking? I have a broader perspective on gaming and I don't think old-school games were anything special.
Much of what is said is looking back with rose-colored glasses.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Removing ....
gameplay - sure .. remove the boring (to me) gameplay like slow travel, or looking for group
challenges - this is not good ... but there are still hard mode stuff, and games like PoE (which is listed as a MMO here) is pretty challenging
community - i don't play games for community
downtime - good .. the less the better (for me)
unique starting areas - well ... more content is better ... so i agree with this one
open world - meh ... instanced gameplay is better (for me)
travel - i don't play games to walk around .. so yeah!
... and progression mechanism redundant? Just see ARPGs for streamline gameplay and nothing but progression. It can be done ... MMORPGs can learn from ARPGs. Just put in random dungeons, and good loot system.
Speak just for yourself. Do not assume to speak for everyone, because you don't.
So basically you prove my point nobody's going to agree with want they want and pretty much players don't want the norm?It is my OPINION. Deal with it.
Trolling is, when I fake an opinion to anger people. You may not LIKE the metaphor, but it sill IS my opinion.
You are just reading into the OP's post things which he never said. He didn't want MMos 2013 EXACTLY as back in EQ. But some things were on a better road as today, where some things just get overly easy and riskless. It is exactly that kind of thinking which must go, this black and white, like games can either only be like EQ 1999 or super-easy themeparks. It is not so much about one given game or game system, but a broarder perspective of looking at games.
You talk about "super-easy themeparks" and blame me for black & white thinking? I have a broader perspective on gaming and I don't think old-school games were anything special.
Much of what is said is looking back with rose-colored glasses.
It's not rose tinted glasses (I guess it could be for some). MMOs... heck, games in general, have become much more popular. They're trying to appeal to a more casual kind of gamer. In order to do that they've made the games easier. They've made them more forgiving. Overcoming adversity is a pretty central role in gaming. It's what gives us a sense of accomplishment. This isn't just nostalgia. Games are different. Again, there's a reason why the amount of people playing games I'd going up.
its been overly steamlined where features and conveniences slowly remove gameplay, challenges, community, downtime, unique starting areas, open worlds, travel, etc. My belief why players request for streamed line gaming the progression mechanisms in the game become redundant and just road blocks to the end game and have no value to the players.Removing ....
gameplay - sure .. remove the boring (to me) gameplay like slow travel, or looking for group
challenges - this is not good ... but there are still hard mode stuff, and games like PoE (which is listed as a MMO here) is pretty challenging
community - i don't play games for community
downtime - good .. the less the better (for me)
unique starting areas - well ... more content is better ... so i agree with this one
open world - meh ... instanced gameplay is better (for me)
travel - i don't play games to walk around .. so yeah!
... and progression mechanism redundant? Just see ARPGs for streamline gameplay and nothing but progression. It can be done ... MMORPGs can learn from ARPGs. Just put in random dungeons, and good loot system.
I don't really know what your desire is because apparently your MMORPG needs arr being meet. But for those waiting for change the genre is lacking.I know what people want; they want to repeat their first experience of an mmo. People become world-weary as they get older; it is why time seems to speed up; because there are fewer new experiences and less of your faculties/ attention required to comprehend them. Those early experiences of new things are usually the best.
Oh to be young again!
It is my OPINION. Deal with it.
Trolling is, when I fake an opinion to anger people. You may not LIKE the metaphor, but it sill IS my opinion.
You are just reading into the OP's post things which he never said. He didn't want MMos 2013 EXACTLY as back in EQ. But some things were on a better road as today, where some things just get overly easy and riskless. It is exactly that kind of thinking which must go, this black and white, like games can either only be like EQ 1999 or super-easy themeparks. It is not so much about one given game or game system, but a broarder perspective of looking at games.
You talk about "super-easy themeparks" and blame me for black & white thinking? I have a broader perspective on gaming and I don't think old-school games were anything special.
Much of what is said is looking back with rose-colored glasses.
It's not rose tinted glasses (I guess it could be for some). MMOs... heck, games in general, have become much more popular. They're trying to appeal to a more casual kind of gamer. In order to do that they've made the games easier. They've made them more forgiving. Overcoming adversity is a pretty central role in gaming. It's what gives us a sense of accomplishment. This isn't just nostalgia. Games are different. Again, there's a reason why the amount of people playing games I'd going up.
More people play because access is better. My phone has more power and better Internet connection than my UO computer. Its not all just casual games because even that is misleading because I know people who play Candy Crush as "hardcore."
Early experiences shape your preferences of course. But it's not an unattainable thing to want to recapture those feelings. Dark Souls did it for me in single player games. It's basically like saying I can't like brunettes simply because my first kiss was with a brunette.Everything thats now started by older generation.
If you dont like what is today don't blame the current genrations its prolly the first mmo generation who couse this demise.
I dare you with this analyses:I think the OLDER GENERATIONS of gamers are to blame for what we have now.
You just can't say its fault of newer genration becouse there NEW they dont even know whats going on they just start playing with ZERO KNOWLEDGE of the past(well majority) how can they be blamed for the crap released today?
You can't.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
No. What I'm saying is that old MMOs could make more money with less subscribers because their costs were much less: Profit=revenue-costs. Raise the costs and you will need more revenue to make the same profit. It's not complicated. You are also still ignoring that most MMOs don't have subs anymore but F2P players and the value of one in business terms is greater than the value of the other.
But making a game casual is not the same as "make it easy". It is as silly a notion as making a game hard is the same as getting rid of tutorials and documentation.
It is why participating in these discussions is like pulling teeth: Many people cannot make a distinction between complexity and depth, arduous and hard, casual-friendly and easy.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I'd like to see you prove that outside of 2 or 3 specific, popular titles examples.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Wouldn't that be true for old school games too?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
The increased costs mainly come from general progress in hardware and connection speeds which enable vastly improved graphics. It is the same for console single-players as mmo's.
No, it's not like saying that at all. It's saying once you've kissed her, you'll never have that blissful ignorance and expectation with anyone else. Every kiss after that will always be compaired mentally to the first one. You can never have a second first kiss.
It doesn't mean the second, third or forth wont be good. It just can never be the same. Same goes for mmos....and everything else.
Your all wrong its the generations from UO-EQ-AC EXT that coused the demise.
WoW just fasten the process even more.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
+1
It is my OPINION. Deal with it.
Trolling is, when I fake an opinion to anger people. You may not LIKE the metaphor, but it sill IS my opinion.
You are just reading into the OP's post things which he never said. He didn't want MMos 2013 EXACTLY as back in EQ. But some things were on a better road as today, where some things just get overly easy and riskless. It is exactly that kind of thinking which must go, this black and white, like games can either only be like EQ 1999 or super-easy themeparks. It is not so much about one given game or game system, but a broarder perspective of looking at games.
You talk about "super-easy themeparks" and blame me for black & white thinking? I have a broader perspective on gaming and I don't think old-school games were anything special.
Much of what is said is looking back with rose-colored glasses.
It's not rose tinted glasses (I guess it could be for some). MMOs... heck, games in general, have become much more popular. They're trying to appeal to a more casual kind of gamer. In order to do that they've made the games easier. They've made them more forgiving. Overcoming adversity is a pretty central role in gaming. It's what gives us a sense of accomplishment. This isn't just nostalgia. Games are different. Again, there's a reason why the amount of people playing games I'd going up.
More people play because access is better. My phone has more power and better Internet connection than my UO computer. Its not all just casual games because even that is misleading because I know people who play Candy Crush as "hardcore."
Of course access helps but that shouldn't really matter in console gaming. Since the ps1 the consoles have been relatively close in terms of price adjusted for inflation.similarly with mmos, I don't remember there being a particularly significant change in computer hardware prices/power that coincided with wow's release. I'm sure access can explain some of the trend upwards but there's no doubt they're going after a broader playerbase.
But making a game casual is not the same as "make it easy". It is as silly a notion as making a game hard is the same as getting rid of tutorials and documentation.
It is why participating in these discussions is like pulling teeth: Many people cannot make a distinction between complexity and depth, arduous and hard, casual-friendly and easy.
Except you and I have been through this before and you just end up getting out of dodge. You can't separate complexity from depth and you can't separate ease from casual.if I recall, our last discussion about games being casual friendly had you claiming that it was all about the length of play sessions. You claimed sc2 was more casual friendly than LoL because the games were shorter. A simply ridiculous claim. Casual friendly games go at least somewhat hand in hand with forgiving gameplay and easy gameplay.
Early experiences shape your preferences of course. But it's not an unattainable thing to want to recapture those feelings. Dark Souls did it for me in single player games. It's basically like saying I can't like brunettes simply because my first kiss was with a brunette.No, it's not like saying that at all. It's saying once you've kissed her, you'll never have that blissful ignorance and expectation with anyone else. Every kiss after that will always be compaired mentally to the first one. You can never have a second first kiss.
It doesn't mean the second, third or forth wont be good. It just can never be the same. Same goes for mmos....and everything else.
Sometimes I think you guys argue just to argue because this is quite obviously wrong once you think about it. We're not saying we want to play an MMO that is our first MMO. We're saying we want one like that. How is my analogy incorrect?I am inclined to agree. Chess or Bridge are complex, hard and certainly not casual friendly; they require time and practice to master. Top Trumps is easy and shallow. Most other (board) games fit somewhere on a spectrum between the two.
That is the way games work, you increase depth by increasing the options available to the player which requires increased complexity; arduous and hard are synonymous; to be casual-friendly it needs to be grasped and accessible in short bursts and therefore easy.