Originally posted by Tibernicuspa Originally posted by lizardbones I've always found contrived downtime annoying. But then I've never needed an excuse to talk to people when I felt like it in games. At the same time, I've never felt like I needed to talk to anyone in games. The point of the games I've played has always been to play the games. This, combined with the several far better ways to socialize on the internet than sit watching my character eat food leads me to think it unsurprising that people aren't interested in spending time chatting while they wait for something to happen in the games they play.
Not everyone is like you, some people need a push to start socializing.
There are books written on this subject, both for game theory and the study of human social patterns.
What this means in MMOs is, if no one is encouraged at any point to rely on others, or cross paths with others (like say, a game that requires you go to a specific area to train, go to a tavern to heal, go to a bank to get items, its all more convenient not to have these things, but it gets people to cross paths and socialize), then a social fabric does not form.
When an MMO has no real socializing, then people are much more prone to leave. They treat it like a singleplayer game, burn through the content, and go.
A little bit of downtime is benefitial to the life of a game, as well as the social experiences of the players. PACING is an important thing.
Well yeah. If everyone was like me, or even if everyone was similar to me, the world would be a boring, boring place. :-)
If socializing was the life of the game, WoW would never have reached 12 million players. SWToR would not still exist. MMORPGs in general wouldn't exist. This is because socializing as an activity in MMORPGs is hopelessly inferior to socializing anywhere else. In 1996, socializing in MMORPGs was probably superior to other forms of online socialization, especially for gamers. In 2004, it probably still was. Today? Not even close. MMORPGs just never progressed in that arena. Add to this the fact that "MMORPGers" are very much the minority relative to "Gamers" and it is, again, no surprise that sitting around talking in MMORPGs has fallen by the wayside. This does not require everyone to be like me.
Even so, players still have the option to socialize as much as they want in any MMORPG that they play. There is nothing stopping them. If players are not socializing, they don't want to. Forcing them to do something they don't want to do is not going to increase the life of the game. It doesn't matter if that "something" is watching their character eat between fights in the hopes that they'll socialize or if that "something" is forcing players into Raids as the only form of end game progression.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard I play MMOs since UO beta and I never needed game mechanics to force me to engage in social interactions... I socialize just as well in today's MMOs than in those 15 years ago.
That seems to be a HUGE difference between the exEQ players and the exUO players. The former needed to be forced to stop grinding to talk to each other and the latter actually built taverns, arenas and entire villages to do nothing but socialize with either other. This has been consistent not only in the games they played but in the positions they drifted toward when they entered the industry. A lot of exEQers went into designing MMORPGs, which explains a lot of the reiteration of the DikuMUD/EQ formula, and many exUOers went into community management and the development of virtual worlds.
"This is because socializing as an activity in MMORPGs is hopelessly inferior to socializing anywhere else. In 1996, socializing in MMORPGs was probably superior to other forms of online socialization, especially for gamers. In 2004, it probably still was. Today? Not even close." - LizardBones
Spot on. We've come a long way from IRC, Roger Wilco and ICQ. The types of social channels and number of virtual communities that people participate in online are astronomically greater than before the turn of the century. The novelty of "Holy cow! I'm talking to someone in [far country]!" is long gone. People have settled into their various communities and, in many cases, their social circles and their gaming circles are very different. One can easily see this for themselves by looking at their FB and Twitter lists. Gaming life for most is distinctly separate groups or even separate channels from their social life.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
They way we communicate in games have nothing to do with forced downtime. Most of us use Ventrilo for raid, group content, whatever. If forced downtime was put on us again, you thing we'd go back to typing? More than likely, you'd do a run wit ha guy, and if you liked him, you'll invite him to your Vent server...
Ever pay attention to guild recruitment lately? Somewhere in there, it will say "Must Have TS/Vent/Mumble"
** Edit- Just noticed the guy above me just said the same thing...**
They way we communicate in games have nothing to do with forced downtime. Most of us use Ventrilo for raid, group content, whatever.
You use Vent for closed off cliques and guilds. How do you communicate with strangers that you group with? You don't, because that kind of stuff is largely gone from MMOs.
Originally posted by lizardbones I've always found contrived downtime annoying. But then I've never needed an excuse to talk to people when I felt like it in games. At the same time, I've never felt like I needed to talk to anyone in games. The point of the games I've played has always been to play the games. This, combined with the several far better ways to socialize on the internet than sit watching my character eat food leads me to think it unsurprising that people aren't interested in spending time chatting while they wait for something to happen in the games they play.
Not everyone is like you, some people need a push to start socializing.
There are books written on this subject, both for game theory and the study of human social patterns.
What this means in MMOs is, if no one is encouraged at any point to rely on others, or cross paths with others (like say, a game that requires you go to a specific area to train, go to a tavern to heal, go to a bank to get items, its all more convenient not to have these things, but it gets people to cross paths and socialize), then a social fabric does not form.
When an MMO has no real socializing, then people are much more prone to leave. They treat it like a singleplayer game, burn through the content, and go.
A little bit of downtime is benefitial to the life of a game, as well as the social experiences of the players. PACING is an important thing.
Well yeah. If everyone was like me, or even if everyone was similar to me, the world would be a boring, boring place. :-)
If socializing was the life of the game, WoW would never have reached 12 million players. SWToR would not still exist. MMORPGs in general wouldn't exist.
WoW is an outlier, entirely not relevant.
SWTOR crashed harder and faster than any MMO to date. It doesn't go away because it can't afford to.
And have you noticed how most MMOs go into sharp decline after one month? No social glue. Well, among other reasons.
There's a reason games like AoC, Rift, Aion, STO, SWTOR, all crashed after launch and never recovered.
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard Originally posted by FoomerangIsn't downtime when you're not actively playing a part of the game and just chatting or something? If you want downtime, stop playing and start socializing. What, you want to have downtime in a dungeon or group pve? You need a captive audience? lol Stopit.
You hit the nail on the head I think here, Mr. Foo... Holy smokes we agree on something? lol its the dawn of a new era!
So people actually need game mechanics to force them to have downtime and socialize.
What a sad comment this is. Look if I want downtime in a game I just take downtime. And I take it often in my games. I think this is why people get so burned out sometimes. They just can stop, quest, combat, level, quest , combat, level......
They complain that games are too linear, but they just won't get off the level elevator to have a look at whats around them.
I still think old and new gamers just expect games to do too much. Whatever happened to a little imagination and some fun? Does the game have to do everything for you?
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
So people actually need game mechanics to force them to have downtime and socialize.
Yes, in general, people will always take the path of least resistence. In general, a way a game presents its mechanics will have a trickle down impact on the attitude of the players, and the type of players present in the game.
For every unique person in this thread saying "I STILL SOCIALIZE!" there are a thousand other people who don't. They just breeze through the solo content, only interacting with someone if they collide with a group quest, and even then they're likely to ask people they already know vs socialize with the people around them. That's the impact game mechanics have had on WoW clones.
In older games, socializing permeated almost every single feature, and the result? An MMO with WAY more social atmosphere and people helping strangers. If a game doesn't reward socializing, most people won't socialize.
Even so, players still have the option to socialize as much as they want in any MMORPG that they play. There is nothing stopping them. If players are not socializing, they don't want to. Forcing them to do something they don't want to do is not going to increase the life of the game. It doesn't matter if that "something" is watching their character eat between fights in the hopes that they'll socialize or if that "something" is forcing players into Raids as the only form of end game progression.
Downtime doesn't force anybody to do anything, it just provides an opportunity when your team mates are running around mashing buttons. Socializing is just one of many things that can happen.
I agree with the OP, I enjoyed the pace of older games and found they had a smaller but better community compared to the army of ADHD , solo play mouth breathers we get stuck with nowadays.
Originally posted by rutaq Even so, players still have the option to socialize as much as they want in any MMORPG that they play. There is nothing stopping them. If players are not socializing, they don't want to. Forcing them to do something they don't want to do is not going to increase the life of the game. It doesn't matter if that "something" is watching their character eat between fights in the hopes that they'll socialize or if that "something" is forcing players into Raids as the only form of end game progression.
Downtime doesn't force anybody to do anything, it just provides an opportunity when your team mates are running around mashing buttons. Socializing is just one of many things that can happen.
I agree with the OP, I enjoyed the pace of older games and found they had a smaller but better community compared to the army of ADHD , solo play mouth breathers we get stuck with nowadays.
It's not the socializing that is the issue. It's the forced downtime that's the issue. That's why it's going away. There are more of those "ADHD, solo play mouth breathers" than whatever the other type of player is, and they are paying the bills.
I for one don't miss the forced downtime, and I'm also not missing out on any socializing. There are cities full of people socializing like crazy. Global chat in most games I've played is likewise full of people chatting away. Socialization isn't missing, it's just moved to social areas.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Even so, players still have the option to socialize as much as they want in any MMORPG that they play. There is nothing stopping them. If players are not socializing, they don't want to. Forcing them to do something they don't want to do is not going to increase the life of the game.
Actually, all data we have about online games an MMOs shows that forcing people to do things (which is entirely what games are anyway) is what keeps MMOs growing longer. And there's a fine line between forcing someone to do something and providing mechanics that encourage or reward an action.
And to those saying "Games without downtime are selling more!", then how come there hasn't been a single WoW clone that's grown AFTER launch?
They way we communicate in games have nothing to do with forced downtime. Most of us use Ventrilo for raid, group content, whatever.
You use Vent for closed off cliques and guilds. How do you communicate with strangers that you group with? You don't, because that kind of stuff is largely gone from MMOs.
I type to them like we did back when we played mmos riding around on dinosaurs ?
I don't get why do you have to be forced into talking to other people all the time. Down time forces you to chat instead of killing whatever it is you're out there to kill..... why???? When I really feel like being social I sit in town or go mat harvesting or do something that doesn't involve me being focused on combat. I don't want to have 1 fight, then chat for 5 minutes then do another fight and chat for 5 minutes.
If you want down time to chat, group with people that aren't in a rush and....chat. If you think forcing people to do it now is going to make a better game....lol@you. None of the people you think you'll be forcing to chat are even going to play the game in the first place.
They way we communicate in games have nothing to do with forced downtime. Most of us use Ventrilo for raid, group content, whatever.
You use Vent for closed off cliques and guilds. How do you communicate with strangers that you group with? You don't, because that kind of stuff is largely gone from MMOs.
If you want down time to chat, group with people that aren't in a rush and....chat. If you think forcing people to do it now is going to make a better game....lol@you. None of the people you think you'll be forcing to chat are even going to play the game in the first place.
The people that enjoy socializing aren't going to play a game that has no mechanics to encourage or reward socializing, so there won't be anyone to socialize with. If you can't see the problem, then you're never going to understand.
They way we communicate in games have nothing to do with forced downtime. Most of us use Ventrilo for raid, group content, whatever.
You use Vent for closed off cliques and guilds. How do you communicate with strangers that you group with? You don't, because that kind of stuff is largely gone from MMOs.
If you want down time to chat, group with people that aren't in a rush and....chat. If you think forcing people to do it now is going to make a better game....lol@you. None of the people you think you'll be forcing to chat are even going to play the game in the first place.
The people that enjoy socializing aren't going to play a game that has no mechanics to encourage or reward socializing, so there won't be anyone to socialize with. If you can't see the problem, then you're never going to understand.
If you actually think what I wrote says that...well...you never really get someone else's point of view anyway so things will continue as usual for you I guess.
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa Originally posted by lizardbones
Even so, players still have the option to socialize as much as they want in any MMORPG that they play. There is nothing stopping them. If players are not socializing, they don't want to. Forcing them to do something they don't want to do is not going to increase the life of the game. Actually, all data we have about online games an MMOs shows that forcing people to do things (which is entirely what games are anyway) is what keeps MMOs growing longer. And there's a fine line between forcing someone to do something and providing mechanics that encourage or reward an action.
And to those saying "Games without downtime are selling more!", then how come there hasn't been a single WoW clone that's grown AFTER launch?
What data?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
They way we communicate in games have nothing to do with forced downtime. Most of us use Ventrilo for raid, group content, whatever.
You use Vent for closed off cliques and guilds. How do you communicate with strangers that you group with? You don't, because that kind of stuff is largely gone from MMOs.
If you want down time to chat, group with people that aren't in a rush and....chat. If you think forcing people to do it now is going to make a better game....lol@you. None of the people you think you'll be forcing to chat are even going to play the game in the first place.
The people that enjoy socializing aren't going to play a game that has no mechanics to encourage or reward socializing, so there won't be anyone to socialize with. If you can't see the problem, then you're never going to understand.
There's nothing that prevents people from being social, regardless if there is a forced mechanic or not. Hell, with the right make up there was practically zero downtime in DAoC and there was still plenty of socializing going on. The biggest difference between than and now is that most socializing seems to take place away from the game.
Many gamers are in either close knit communities that are largely made up of real world friends, or they are in very large guild that are multi-game institutions. Much of their socializing takes place in private mumble/vent servers and no amount of game mechanics will take away from that.
Bottom line is that people who want to be social will find a way to be social, and people who prefer to keep to themselves will keep to themselves. Considering how vitriolic the gaming community has become as a whole, it's any wonder anyone wishes to be social at all.
Even so, players still have the option to socialize as much as they want in any MMORPG that they play. There is nothing stopping them. If players are not socializing, they don't want to. Forcing them to do something they don't want to do is not going to increase the life of the game.
Actually, all data we have about online games an MMOs shows that forcing people to do things (which is entirely what games are anyway) is what keeps MMOs growing longer. And there's a fine line between forcing someone to do something and providing mechanics that encourage or reward an action.
And to those saying "Games without downtime are selling more!", then how come there hasn't been a single WoW clone that's grown AFTER launch?
What data?
The fact that no AAA WoW clone in the last 8 years has managed to grow in population over time? Data that is backed up by several books on game theory, written by people who made the MMOs that DID grow over time.
EQ never forced you to socialise, that comes down to the person themselves - alot of people actually like to co-op and be a part of something but there will always be those that are different. So you wern't forced to talk in a group it's not like you were kicked if you didn't, as long as you did your class job then It didn't really bother me if you were a talker or not. If you wanted to exp at an efficient rate then groups were the preferred playstyle, and in turn you would find alot more groups if you were more open to interacting with others.
But from all this don't frown upon others who do like to group some people are very social creatures, and yearn for the days when having to be a part of a bigger thing was an experienced to be relished and looked back upon with fondness the good and bad of the people you met.
Even so, players still have the option to socialize as much as they want in any MMORPG that they play. There is nothing stopping them. If players are not socializing, they don't want to. Forcing them to do something they don't want to do is not going to increase the life of the game.
Actually, all data we have about online games an MMOs shows that forcing people to do things (which is entirely what games are anyway) is what keeps MMOs growing longer. And there's a fine line between forcing someone to do something and providing mechanics that encourage or reward an action.
And to those saying "Games without downtime are selling more!", then how come there hasn't been a single WoW clone that's grown AFTER launch?
What data?
Thank you. Would love to see this data as well. Also, based on all the evidence we actually do have, the general rule is that MMOs don't grow their playerbase consistently for long periods after launch. Even with the noteworthy exceptions (EVE and WoW) it's hard to make the case that forced downtime is in any way a deciding factor in a game's success.
ETA: I'm entirely skeptical of the perspective that suggests a game is a failure if its playerbase is not continuously increasing months and years down the line, especially since the pattern of growth, plateau, and decline has been well-established over two decades of MMOs. One could just as easily ask, why haven't more basketball teams won ten championships in a row? The Celts did it back in the 50s and 60s. If you pick outliers and exceptions as your standard then everything else will by default appear as a failure, no matter how unrealistic your standard may be.
They way we communicate in games have nothing to do with forced downtime. Most of us use Ventrilo for raid, group content, whatever.
You use Vent for closed off cliques and guilds. How do you communicate with strangers that you group with? You don't, because that kind of stuff is largely gone from MMOs.
If you want down time to chat, group with people that aren't in a rush and....chat. If you think forcing people to do it now is going to make a better game....lol@you. None of the people you think you'll be forcing to chat are even going to play the game in the first place.
The people that enjoy socializing aren't going to play a game that has no mechanics to encourage or reward socializing, so there won't be anyone to socialize with. If you can't see the problem, then you're never going to understand.
There's nothing that prevents people from being social, regardless if there is a forced mechanic or not. Hell, with the right make up there was practically zero downtime in DAoC and there was still plenty of socializing going on. The biggest difference between than and now is that most socializing seems to take place away from the game.
Many gamers are in either close knit communities that are largely made up of real world friends, or they are in very large guild that are multi-game institutions. Much of their socializing takes place in private mumble/vent servers and no amount of game mechanics will take away from that.
The reason most socializing is in private groups is because that is the kind of play style encouraged by the game design.
It is almost impossible to do a pick up group in a quest grind game like LotRO, the game mechanics fight against you.
It is absolutely impossible to raid with strangers in modern MMOs.
Modern WoW clones have you playing solo 90% of the time, until you're forced into a group quest, in which you either play with dungeon finder people you never talk to again, or you play it with real life friends. There are NO mechanics encouraging or rewarding you for grouping. So people don't group.
There are no mechanics that allow you to time or reward you for socializing, so people don't socialize. It's as simple as that. What benefit did I have in DAoC for socializing? Well, someone might offer to power level me. Someone could lead me to a camp, or escourt me to a dangerous place. The two of us together could get better rewards than alone. I could learn a new thing about the game. They could have crafting contacts I need. They could invite me along on a raid, or an RvR excursion. All these things were better done with more people, because the game world ENCOURAGED people to group up and socialize.
Even in the best group makeup in DAoC, eventually the cleric or ice wizard would have to rest for power, and people would talk.
It's so evident it may as well be fact, players are influenced by games, and players will by and large take the path of greatest reward and least resistance. If your path of greatest reward is being social and interacting with strangers, suddenly you have a game where people socialize. Downtime is just ONE of those things that allows this to happen.
But don't take this from me, take it from the guy who built some of the best fucking MMOs ever made.
Even so, players still have the option to socialize as much as they want in any MMORPG that they play. There is nothing stopping them. If players are not socializing, they don't want to. Forcing them to do something they don't want to do is not going to increase the life of the game.
Actually, all data we have about online games an MMOs shows that forcing people to do things (which is entirely what games are anyway) is what keeps MMOs growing longer. And there's a fine line between forcing someone to do something and providing mechanics that encourage or reward an action.
And to those saying "Games without downtime are selling more!", then how come there hasn't been a single WoW clone that's grown AFTER launch?
What data?
Thank you. Would love to see this data as well. Also, based on all the evidence we actually do have, the general rule is that MMOs don't grow their playerbase consistently for long periods after launch.
Wrong. WoW clones and themeparks generally don't.
Pre WoW MMOs didn't peak until YEARS after their launch.
You just linked to an article that says the ideal area for 'downtime' in safe areas and away from combat, citing that downtime during combat or 'forced' downtime
"...led to resentment of the enforced downtime and appears to have harmed its value as a social space."
If you agree with Raph, then you are agreeing with what others are saying here. Did you not read the article or did you not understand the article?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Actually, all data we have about online games an MMOs shows that forcing people to do things (which is entirely what games are anyway) is what keeps MMOs growing longer. And there's a fine line between forcing someone to do something and providing mechanics that encourage or reward an action.
And to those saying "Games without downtime are selling more!", then how come there hasn't been a single WoW clone that's grown AFTER launch?
Because they start off bigger than the pre-WoW games, and shrink down to still-bigger than the pre-WoW games.
And back in the old days of MMOs, it was still an expanding audience. New people were finding out that's their type of game, it wasn't well known, and there weren't a whole lot of choices. You didn't have a new game showing up every few months that sold to the same audience. There's a whole slew of reasons older games started small and grew to still-tiny-population, rather than going from incredibly huge population to medium population.
Post-WoW, all those pre-WoW AAA games shrunk drastically.
There's so many different data points that have changed with no control group, so the data is pretty much worthless for proving a point. Pointing to ONE game design factor and saying 'This is definitely it' is just cherry picking.
You just linked to an article that says the ideal area for 'downtime' in safe areas and away from combat, citing that downtime during combat or 'forced' downtime
"...led to resentment of the enforced downtime and appears to have harmed its value as a social space."
If you agree with Raph, then you are agreeing with what others are saying here. Did you not read the article or did you not understand the article?
I perfectly understand the article. The name of this thread is "Why I like downtime and other time consuming things". That does not only point at combat.
Was playing last night and watching the Help channel when I saw the name of a guy who was in our guild. He left because things slowed down. So I sent a PM, said "Hi, long time no see." We chatted for about 15 mins, I was just putzing around with some missions.
Anyway he asks, can you help me with a mission? Normally I just kind of do my own thing, but he was a good guy so I said sure. Had to switch toons, and travel a bit to get where he was. He waits, I get there and off we go. Turns out we die on our first attempt. So I asked another friend to help and she said yes. We wait for her to come and then go in and finish off the mission.
He asks if we want to do one more. Sure that was fun lets go! Finished that off too.
Then we say our goodbyes and head off to do our own thing.
What is so hard about that? The game did not force us to get together. I started the conversation and it led to some good group fun.
Having a good chat system in game certainly helps, but as long as you can communicate with other players the rest should be up to you.
It's all in how you approach the game and your fellow players, not the game itself
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Comments
There are books written on this subject, both for game theory and the study of human social patterns.
What this means in MMOs is, if no one is encouraged at any point to rely on others, or cross paths with others (like say, a game that requires you go to a specific area to train, go to a tavern to heal, go to a bank to get items, its all more convenient not to have these things, but it gets people to cross paths and socialize), then a social fabric does not form.
When an MMO has no real socializing, then people are much more prone to leave. They treat it like a singleplayer game, burn through the content, and go.
A little bit of downtime is benefitial to the life of a game, as well as the social experiences of the players. PACING is an important thing.
Well yeah. If everyone was like me, or even if everyone was similar to me, the world would be a boring, boring place. :-)
If socializing was the life of the game, WoW would never have reached 12 million players. SWToR would not still exist. MMORPGs in general wouldn't exist. This is because socializing as an activity in MMORPGs is hopelessly inferior to socializing anywhere else. In 1996, socializing in MMORPGs was probably superior to other forms of online socialization, especially for gamers. In 2004, it probably still was. Today? Not even close. MMORPGs just never progressed in that arena. Add to this the fact that "MMORPGers" are very much the minority relative to "Gamers" and it is, again, no surprise that sitting around talking in MMORPGs has fallen by the wayside. This does not require everyone to be like me.
Even so, players still have the option to socialize as much as they want in any MMORPG that they play. There is nothing stopping them. If players are not socializing, they don't want to. Forcing them to do something they don't want to do is not going to increase the life of the game. It doesn't matter if that "something" is watching their character eat between fights in the hopes that they'll socialize or if that "something" is forcing players into Raids as the only form of end game progression.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
That seems to be a HUGE difference between the exEQ players and the exUO players. The former needed to be forced to stop grinding to talk to each other and the latter actually built taverns, arenas and entire villages to do nothing but socialize with either other. This has been consistent not only in the games they played but in the positions they drifted toward when they entered the industry. A lot of exEQers went into designing MMORPGs, which explains a lot of the reiteration of the DikuMUD/EQ formula, and many exUOers went into community management and the development of virtual worlds.
"This is because socializing as an activity in MMORPGs is hopelessly inferior to socializing anywhere else. In 1996, socializing in MMORPGs was probably superior to other forms of online socialization, especially for gamers. In 2004, it probably still was. Today? Not even close." - LizardBones
Spot on. We've come a long way from IRC, Roger Wilco and ICQ. The types of social channels and number of virtual communities that people participate in online are astronomically greater than before the turn of the century. The novelty of "Holy cow! I'm talking to someone in [far country]!" is long gone. People have settled into their various communities and, in many cases, their social circles and their gaming circles are very different. One can easily see this for themselves by looking at their FB and Twitter lists. Gaming life for most is distinctly separate groups or even separate channels from their social life.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
They way we communicate in games have nothing to do with forced downtime. Most of us use Ventrilo for raid, group content, whatever. If forced downtime was put on us again, you thing we'd go back to typing? More than likely, you'd do a run wit ha guy, and if you liked him, you'll invite him to your Vent server...
Ever pay attention to guild recruitment lately? Somewhere in there, it will say "Must Have TS/Vent/Mumble"
** Edit- Just noticed the guy above me just said the same thing...**
You use Vent for closed off cliques and guilds. How do you communicate with strangers that you group with? You don't, because that kind of stuff is largely gone from MMOs.
WoW is an outlier, entirely not relevant.
SWTOR crashed harder and faster than any MMO to date. It doesn't go away because it can't afford to.
And have you noticed how most MMOs go into sharp decline after one month? No social glue. Well, among other reasons.
There's a reason games like AoC, Rift, Aion, STO, SWTOR, all crashed after launch and never recovered.
Holy smokes we agree on something? lol its the dawn of a new era!
So people actually need game mechanics to force them to have downtime and socialize.
What a sad comment this is. Look if I want downtime in a game I just take downtime. And I take it often in my games. I think this is why people get so burned out sometimes. They just can stop, quest, combat, level, quest , combat, level......
They complain that games are too linear, but they just won't get off the level elevator to have a look at whats around them.
I still think old and new gamers just expect games to do too much. Whatever happened to a little imagination and some fun? Does the game have to do everything for you?
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Yes, in general, people will always take the path of least resistence. In general, a way a game presents its mechanics will have a trickle down impact on the attitude of the players, and the type of players present in the game.
For every unique person in this thread saying "I STILL SOCIALIZE!" there are a thousand other people who don't. They just breeze through the solo content, only interacting with someone if they collide with a group quest, and even then they're likely to ask people they already know vs socialize with the people around them. That's the impact game mechanics have had on WoW clones.
In older games, socializing permeated almost every single feature, and the result? An MMO with WAY more social atmosphere and people helping strangers. If a game doesn't reward socializing, most people won't socialize.
Downtime doesn't force anybody to do anything, it just provides an opportunity when your team mates are running around mashing buttons. Socializing is just one of many things that can happen.
I agree with the OP, I enjoyed the pace of older games and found they had a smaller but better community compared to the army of ADHD , solo play mouth breathers we get stuck with nowadays.
I agree with the OP, I enjoyed the pace of older games and found they had a smaller but better community compared to the army of ADHD , solo play mouth breathers we get stuck with nowadays.
It's not the socializing that is the issue. It's the forced downtime that's the issue. That's why it's going away. There are more of those "ADHD, solo play mouth breathers" than whatever the other type of player is, and they are paying the bills.
I for one don't miss the forced downtime, and I'm also not missing out on any socializing. There are cities full of people socializing like crazy. Global chat in most games I've played is likewise full of people chatting away. Socialization isn't missing, it's just moved to social areas.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Actually, all data we have about online games an MMOs shows that forcing people to do things (which is entirely what games are anyway) is what keeps MMOs growing longer. And there's a fine line between forcing someone to do something and providing mechanics that encourage or reward an action.
And to those saying "Games without downtime are selling more!", then how come there hasn't been a single WoW clone that's grown AFTER launch?
I type to them like we did back when we played mmos riding around on dinosaurs ?
I don't get why do you have to be forced into talking to other people all the time. Down time forces you to chat instead of killing whatever it is you're out there to kill..... why???? When I really feel like being social I sit in town or go mat harvesting or do something that doesn't involve me being focused on combat. I don't want to have 1 fight, then chat for 5 minutes then do another fight and chat for 5 minutes.
If you want down time to chat, group with people that aren't in a rush and....chat. If you think forcing people to do it now is going to make a better game....lol@you. None of the people you think you'll be forcing to chat are even going to play the game in the first place.
The people that enjoy socializing aren't going to play a game that has no mechanics to encourage or reward socializing, so there won't be anyone to socialize with. If you can't see the problem, then you're never going to understand.
If you actually think what I wrote says that...well...you never really get someone else's point of view anyway so things will continue as usual for you I guess.
Actually, all data we have about online games an MMOs shows that forcing people to do things (which is entirely what games are anyway) is what keeps MMOs growing longer. And there's a fine line between forcing someone to do something and providing mechanics that encourage or reward an action.
And to those saying "Games without downtime are selling more!", then how come there hasn't been a single WoW clone that's grown AFTER launch?
What data?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
There's nothing that prevents people from being social, regardless if there is a forced mechanic or not. Hell, with the right make up there was practically zero downtime in DAoC and there was still plenty of socializing going on. The biggest difference between than and now is that most socializing seems to take place away from the game.
Many gamers are in either close knit communities that are largely made up of real world friends, or they are in very large guild that are multi-game institutions. Much of their socializing takes place in private mumble/vent servers and no amount of game mechanics will take away from that.
Bottom line is that people who want to be social will find a way to be social, and people who prefer to keep to themselves will keep to themselves. Considering how vitriolic the gaming community has become as a whole, it's any wonder anyone wishes to be social at all.
The fact that no AAA WoW clone in the last 8 years has managed to grow in population over time? Data that is backed up by several books on game theory, written by people who made the MMOs that DID grow over time.
EQ never forced you to socialise, that comes down to the person themselves - alot of people actually like to co-op and be a part of something but there will always be those that are different. So you wern't forced to talk in a group it's not like you were kicked if you didn't, as long as you did your class job then It didn't really bother me if you were a talker or not. If you wanted to exp at an efficient rate then groups were the preferred playstyle, and in turn you would find alot more groups if you were more open to interacting with others.
But from all this don't frown upon others who do like to group some people are very social creatures, and yearn for the days when having to be a part of a bigger thing was an experienced to be relished and looked back upon with fondness the good and bad of the people you met.
Thank you. Would love to see this data as well. Also, based on all the evidence we actually do have, the general rule is that MMOs don't grow their playerbase consistently for long periods after launch. Even with the noteworthy exceptions (EVE and WoW) it's hard to make the case that forced downtime is in any way a deciding factor in a game's success.
ETA: I'm entirely skeptical of the perspective that suggests a game is a failure if its playerbase is not continuously increasing months and years down the line, especially since the pattern of growth, plateau, and decline has been well-established over two decades of MMOs. One could just as easily ask, why haven't more basketball teams won ten championships in a row? The Celts did it back in the 50s and 60s. If you pick outliers and exceptions as your standard then everything else will by default appear as a failure, no matter how unrealistic your standard may be.
The reason most socializing is in private groups is because that is the kind of play style encouraged by the game design.
It is almost impossible to do a pick up group in a quest grind game like LotRO, the game mechanics fight against you.
It is absolutely impossible to raid with strangers in modern MMOs.
Modern WoW clones have you playing solo 90% of the time, until you're forced into a group quest, in which you either play with dungeon finder people you never talk to again, or you play it with real life friends. There are NO mechanics encouraging or rewarding you for grouping. So people don't group.
There are no mechanics that allow you to time or reward you for socializing, so people don't socialize. It's as simple as that. What benefit did I have in DAoC for socializing? Well, someone might offer to power level me. Someone could lead me to a camp, or escourt me to a dangerous place. The two of us together could get better rewards than alone. I could learn a new thing about the game. They could have crafting contacts I need. They could invite me along on a raid, or an RvR excursion. All these things were better done with more people, because the game world ENCOURAGED people to group up and socialize.
Even in the best group makeup in DAoC, eventually the cleric or ice wizard would have to rest for power, and people would talk.
It's so evident it may as well be fact, players are influenced by games, and players will by and large take the path of greatest reward and least resistance. If your path of greatest reward is being social and interacting with strangers, suddenly you have a game where people socialize. Downtime is just ONE of those things that allows this to happen.
But don't take this from me, take it from the guy who built some of the best fucking MMOs ever made.
SOCIALIZING REQUIRES DOWN TIME
Wrong. WoW clones and themeparks generally don't.
Pre WoW MMOs didn't peak until YEARS after their launch.
You just linked to an article that says the ideal area for 'downtime' in safe areas and away from combat, citing that downtime during combat or 'forced' downtime
"...led to resentment of the enforced downtime and appears to have harmed its value as a social space."
If you agree with Raph, then you are agreeing with what others are saying here. Did you not read the article or did you not understand the article?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Because they start off bigger than the pre-WoW games, and shrink down to still-bigger than the pre-WoW games.
And back in the old days of MMOs, it was still an expanding audience. New people were finding out that's their type of game, it wasn't well known, and there weren't a whole lot of choices. You didn't have a new game showing up every few months that sold to the same audience. There's a whole slew of reasons older games started small and grew to still-tiny-population, rather than going from incredibly huge population to medium population.
Post-WoW, all those pre-WoW AAA games shrunk drastically.
There's so many different data points that have changed with no control group, so the data is pretty much worthless for proving a point. Pointing to ONE game design factor and saying 'This is definitely it' is just cherry picking.
I perfectly understand the article. The name of this thread is "Why I like downtime and other time consuming things". That does not only point at combat.
Been playing FE again lately.
Was playing last night and watching the Help channel when I saw the name of a guy who was in our guild. He left because things slowed down. So I sent a PM, said "Hi, long time no see." We chatted for about 15 mins, I was just putzing around with some missions.
Anyway he asks, can you help me with a mission? Normally I just kind of do my own thing, but he was a good guy so I said sure. Had to switch toons, and travel a bit to get where he was. He waits, I get there and off we go. Turns out we die on our first attempt. So I asked another friend to help and she said yes. We wait for her to come and then go in and finish off the mission.
He asks if we want to do one more. Sure that was fun lets go! Finished that off too.
Then we say our goodbyes and head off to do our own thing.
What is so hard about that? The game did not force us to get together. I started the conversation and it led to some good group fun.
Having a good chat system in game certainly helps, but as long as you can communicate with other players the rest should be up to you.
It's all in how you approach the game and your fellow players, not the game itself
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!