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I don't understand.
Amarao
Member UncommonPosts: 650
I appreciate any and all respones.
I've been players mmo's for well over a decade now. I've played nearly ever single one on the market. As of late I've devoted most of my time to LOTRO, and while I'm enjoying it, the intensity of the payshop and the lack of community is becoming dreary. Not to mention the endgame is apparently atrocious, however not being there yet, I wouldn't really know. My favorite for years was Lineage 2, but NcSoft has shit on that game like they never wanted it to succeed in the first place.
Now to the point, World of Warcraft has the largest following, hate and community. When I played WoW in Vanilla I felt the game was lazy. Nearly all the dungeons were identical, the classes quite standard and the community abyssmal. Finding a genuine human to converse with was, difficult to say the least, and the idea of cutting the games community in half by obscuring cross-race language, was a interesting but useless feature. I felt there were design changes that did not aid what I wanted in an MMO. I have not REALLY given WoW a shot in a very long time, since pre-cataclysm, and I have never had the wear-with-all to make it to the endgame. What I've come here to ask is, what keeps you playing? Why WoW? Why is the community SO large and devoted? What features do you like and dislike? I want to love this game, mostly because, I want an mmo with a large and decent community. But I find the game to be slow, tedious and as if I'm in daycare. Putting my character in front of a cannon to left click at ships, as if I'm supposed to be enthralled by that lazy spectacle. It's, honestly, insulting and cringe-worthy.
I want to play WoW, but more importantly I wish I could truly enjoy the experience and appreciate it with those of you out there who see something I do not. I want to know what server's are mature, if any. I want to know if the end-game is meaningful and not just a slough through dungeons to get rare boots. Tell me what the substance is that keeps one invested, because I cannot find it, but as a true MMO fan, I see little other interesting options to spend my time with.
Thanks all.
Comments
I've played WoW on and off for years (since about 2007). I'm not playing it right now, may or may not go back for the expansion; we will see. In answer to your question of "why WoW?" I would offer that regardless of how much hate the game gets, it simply has more to do in-game than any other MMO on the market. I didn't quit out of boredom; I quit because I don't like what they have done with PvP. Point being, there seems to always be things to do in WoW, always people around to talk to, always guilds recruiting, and it has never been easier to group for raids, dungeons, etc. The economy has had years to develop and thus is quite stable, making it easy for anyone to make a comfortable living; and I say that as someone who abhors crafting in MMOs and never did anything but gathering professions, yet never once had trouble making plenty of gold, provided I put the effort forth.
I would also add that WoW most certainly does not force anyone to do anything they don't want to do. You generally have options as far as how you want to level, where you want to go and how you want to get there, how much interaction you have with others, and so forth. You can most certainly grind if you want to, but I think a lot of that can be bypassed, especially if you have folks to help you out.
I think the past few years have seen a lot of games that claim to be "innovative!" and "groundbreaking!", and yet they fail to fit those descriptors. I also think many other games wind up basically forcing people to group, forcing them to do things solo, pushing them into massive zergfests and breaking their will with terrible economies, bots, and horrendous pugs. Blizzard has had a long time to figure all of that out, and while WoW most certainly is not the Messiah of MMOs, I would go back to my point about it giving players choices, and I think it does that better than anyone.
Much of the hatred directed towards WoW is probably due to jealousy. The fact of the matter is that no matter what the pretenders in the MMO market say, none of them can even sniff WoW's player base and probably never will. Nothing lasts forever, of course, but WoW has had a run of success that may never be duplicated, especially considering the finicky nature of the gaming market. How many so-called "WoW-killers" have we seen over the past five years? Too many to count. And guess what? The ones that launched with sub models are now all F2P, primarily because they simply do not contain enough content to keep people playing. So don't let the trolls fool you; any developer or publisher of any other MMO in the world would most likely give his little finger if it meant that game could have "only" 7.7 million players.
"Why would I want to loose a religion upon my people? Religions wreck from within - Empires and individuals alike! It's all the same." - God Emperor of Dune
The first response in this read has a lot of good points.
This game is much more about *you* than any other game out there. It would jump to the moon for you, if you asked it. This has been met with appreciation and hatred by many parties. You have hundreds of ways to level, practically a dozen different zones are your level to quest (at least 1-60, and above that it's about 2-3 zones per level, with only one giving you enough quests to reach the next tier of zones), PvP to Level, Dungeons to Level, etc. It also gives you a few dozen end game options to pick your fancy, with multiple difficulties and scaling and options within them as well. It also has dozens and dozens of ways to get different loot -- all of which looks different (not just in colors, but aesthetics as well, unless it's a higher level version of the item in a more difficult version of where you got it).
To be honest, WoW has become so complex systematically (people say it's becoming more simple just because they're focusing on what they want to focus on, and not the bigger picture; make things easier to understand isn't exactly dumbing it down in the large sense, even if we no longer need degrees or to look up guides to maximize things since we're given the tools to understand) that it's hard for me to say that anything about it is lazy. Their development group has grown about 80% more than what it was in Cataclysm and grew against and again with each expansion. This meant them going all out with complete revamps of 1-60 in Cataclysm as well as other ideas. The implementation of multiple things to do while leveling and at end game (more than any other game), six+ difficulties for each of those options so that someone can play at the difficulty they want... Even going as far as to throwing out preset number of groups out the window with Flexible Raiding (Whereby they take the time to tune raids to match the number of friends you have in group as opposed to just being stuck at 10 or 25 man... with slightly stronger gear than Looking For raid (PUG raiding) and lower than normal raiding (which will also be given the flex treatment in the next expansion).
The quests themselves have become more involved with storylines and chains / events / voice / phasing etc. You could destroy entire areas by playing through them and there is a persistent story in each expansion along with the updated graphics and new beautiful areas it gets. It's also an incredibly responsive game with a huge addon / mod community that allows you to customize sound files, music files, UI set up, etc. Also, the mechanic whereby you just click on something to fire was replaced years ago with an actual target system (deployed in dozens of different fun ways depending on the situation).
The weakest parts of WoW today are levels 60-80 in terms of leveling. That's when I'd say a lot of people drop off (with 1-60 being completely redone as I said previously; storylines to each zone and such). It picks up again at 80 and has some great story again while questing well up to level 90.
Though there's also a wide array of content that the game has. Hundreds of dungeons, thousand and thousands of items for transmogrification, many different crafting systems and systems in general, even focusing a lot of mini games lately like Pet battles (which are addictive even though they sound stupid at a glance). There is literally too much content to complete and there is always something to do or work on each week. People even have a checklist to do over the next few days each time a new week rolls by -- in addition to raiding and all the options it has -- and all of the dungeon options you have with normal, heroic and challenge modes (and the scenarios and trial systems that were recently put in that give you instant queues no matter what spec you want to be).
With the changes in WoD coming, there is even more to do and to look forward to. More quality of life improvements such as quest items not appearing in your bags, Dynamic Events across the new zones, Fortification Building, Minion Training and exploiting, vastly improved questing systems and rewards, updated items with secondary affixes, improved item quality (gems are rarer but more powerful, etc.). Even a plan to have a new end game in the dynamic events to replace daily questing and the like with the tests they had in 5.1, 5.2 and 5.4 to see if they were viable (also the farm you work on throughout the expansion).
One thing about this game is that it jumps hurdles for it's players. The more it does it, the more people expect of it (higher expectations), so naturally as opposed to gratitude you get more people complaining what they want or don't want. The main developers answer dozens of tweets per day, makes multiple reports on progress with water cooler write ups, and there are quite a bit of blue responses on the forums. They even support "datamine" sites like MMOchampion to a degree (they don't like datamining and don't respond to datamined content, but they realize it's there and don't make efforts to undermine one's efforts if that's what they enjoy). This is also seen in them not even caring about NDAs with new expansions. They pretty much let you stream from day one when it's open to the public. It's just a very open game, to be honest. That's why it's so easy to get into and to talk about with your friends. The more you can talk about a system that's in alpha, the more people recognize the game's there.
There are a lot of technical aspects to overcome that may make it seem like the developers themselves don't care about an individual question as well. This is because the game is basically using a program that is 15 years old. It's an enhanced version of WCIII world editor (or at least it was during the creation of Vanilla, when they said that's what it was). So every time they add a new feature it is usually at the cost of a lot of money and resources and time to make sure it works in their systems. That's probably one of the weakest factors of the game, as it takes so much manpower to do such that it may seem like they're lazy when it comes to the feature an individual likes the most that they can't get to in time. Having so much options in game means having to try and upkeep them all as well.
Edit:
If you're looking for a large server with friendly people on it, then your best bet is either Moon Guard or Wyrmrest Accord. They're RP servers, but there are a lot of friendly people there and they don't mind sharing the server with people who don't role play. There are plenty of non-RP guilds on each and even some RP that let in people just to hang. The PuG system is a lot better lately when it comes to normal dungeons and such as there isn't any real wiping. Though the LFR system might be a bit immature as people brag about their achievements and how everyone else sucks if the group wipes. The fix to that is Flex Raiding (mentioned above) whereby you can just invite any number of friends you want to a scaling raid. They will also have a new raid finder in WoD that works like a popular mod called OQ that will find people across servers that mark themselves as interested in the content you want. They have cross realm technology and merging nowadays as well, so you'll likely see players from every RP realm in your game outside of the main cities.
I'd find a level 25 guild for the EXP benefits and such to start off. Hopefully they're a nice fit, be nice and participate casually in chat from time to time. Maybe ask for help when you need it or offer it. In no time at all you'll make friends and likely be having fun in the new content that's been put in since you've last tried the game.
Endgame is just that, grind instances to get the epic gear like always.
It's the same themepark, just endgame is now in a asian theme with also a faction reputation grinder for gear like in the old days.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
When it comes right down to it gear is always the end game, as is said here. Though they are adding plenty of additional features and difficulties and ways to jump in there in as short as time as possible with each new patch and expansion. The difficulties, the different group finders (even an updated person finder that will mark themselves as wanting to raid, and you being able to send them an invite even if they're in a different realm), and flexible raiding and such.
Though also with pet battles and building garrisons and leveling up minions within the garrisons and such. Dynamic events to get reputation and currency and items to advance new patch storyline elements (they add new storyline in the patches now). But the same is still true that with each patch the new monsters in the new areas and the new storyline will be stronger and will likely need powerful items to take them down. I know some things had like 250-390k health at level 90 in MoP and by patch 5.4 regular mobs have like 590k-1,000,000 health at least on the Timeless Island.
They're still of the mind that getting new gear is what the game is all about, but they're adding different ways to do it and a lot of story to each new way. There will likely be that one way you really enjoy before long and you'll be getting gear without even trying (save for the top end tier stiff on the hardest difficulties).
To be fair people only stick around with World of warcraft cause it's timeconsuming and certain people find it fun still, though posts before me have mentioned that they have cut down on overall choices of talents and such they have really made the game simple as there is nothing to enjoy there anymore. I played since 2004 and I regret ever playing after cataclysm even though I did. The game holds is devoted players because some of them believe this to be the "first" MMO ever made which would be wrong as Everquest beat them to that line. Either way the point is endgame is still same old grinding and people are not really more mature then they were at the start of the game nor are they anymore childish.
Though if you want to find a mature server I suggest checking a few RP servers even though they do have their flaws there are less "kids" so to speak. I recently played on Argent Dawn and I had little to complain about when it came to playerbase all though you had your trolls in trade chat as always. Main reason I really stopped playing this game was because they made talents and all simple, which I myself dislike as I prefer more complex systems so I can make sort of my "own" right instead of having to follow everyone else because there is no other right.
The PvP is completely caster based now and melee have no chance these days unless you are lucky or have a healer with you so in short 1v1 vs a caster is useless unless one yourself with skill. Healers are a walk in the park still even though they have gotten the 55% healing debuff in pvp, they are still no match in arena 2v2 and 3v3. I would never recommend this game to anyone but everyone have their choices. The playerbase is still somewhat abyssmal and finding a normal person to have a conversation with is still far off unless you get lucky.
So all in all I would call it a unworthy game as there are many other F2P games that offer the same gameplay and a better playerbase then this game. With the upcoming expansion is a better reason to quit as they are not improving the game but the graphics. They neglect the gameplay over better graphics which none have complained on for 8 years. I would call it a broken game but such is my opinion of the game.
I would agree but I end up disagreeing because World of warcraft never had a story, only reason the game exist is because someone wanted to expand the warcraft universe and make it one. Every story they put in there comes from the old games and it just doesn't cut it anymore. You stroll through the same cycle of leveling, getting beaten up by people that devote so much time to reach max level and get all the best gear (If pvp server) and when you finally have your fun ruined by that you reach max level and you need to grind the gear as well and end up being stuck with dailies cause you cannot get anything due to rep and people that kick you because of your gear or vise versa. There is basically nothing to it anymore then a timeconsumer now with better grapichs and a new way of wasting time.
I read your post. It sounds like you just need to get in with a core group of players. People you normally convene with. I think once you become an adult the games alone are not enough to keep your attention, it's the conversations and social aspects. The game is there to create a common place with common goals, but ultimately it's only a secondary rider on what's really keeping your attention.
With respect to World of Warcraft, there are multiple reasons for it's success.
For me...
1. I grew up playing Warcraft - so when I came across WoW as an adult without any real knowledge as to what an mmorpg was, it looked like Warcfaft features only massively enhanced. I thought it would be a game for me.
- It was my first real crack at an mmorpg so being that I became heavily invested.
- Being I was new to mmorpg's even mundane tasks were still new to me, I had no idea where it was all headed, other than eventually I would kill the LK ( I started in 2008 ) and everytime I leveled I became more powerful (very addicting)
- It's hard to find a home somewhere else, and when you try to, the first thing you come across and are like " wtf WoW made it better this game sucks", you end up going right back to WoW (which tells me I don't like mmorpg's I just like WoW)
- I got some irl friends to play it, made some in game friends, so that's where my friends are.
- I found an online world mysterious and the end game features were something that seemed out of touch, (yet they were not and ultimately I found defeating the LK with the group of players I was with to be an extremely rewarding moment considering there are only a small handful of guilds on the realm I was on to do it that early)
- I don't like to game alone and having millions of people to talk with and examine, the game takes a backburner when you meet up with some interesting personalities and WoW has many many types.
These are all just for starters and everyone that plays I am sure could make a progressive list as to why they play.
uh, for the record, wow is not like other themeparks....
OTHER THEMEPARKS ARE LIKE WOW! understand the difference. the asians WISH they could have a game like wow (or it's endgame)
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
I can agree with most of these statements but the one I dislike is "It's hard to find a home somewhere else, and when you try to, the first thing you come across and are like " wtf WoW made it better this game sucks", you end up going right back to WoW (which tells me I don't like mmorpg's I just like WoW)"
It's not hard, it's just people don't like change because change scares most of the new people. TERA and FFX online are good games that contain the same elements as WoW but in a different way of telling stories and with a better graphic content. But yes having friends that play the same game makes for better in any MMO, playing it alone can be dissatisfying as you end up alone and everyone want to play something else.
It's a shame you are completely wrong. Everquest started this trend long before WoW ever hit the boards so basicly wow is like other themeparks because Everquest was the first to go out with all of this. Even Everquest 2 had more content then WoW and WoW instantly started to take ideas from that game. You can say all you want about WoW but it was never the FIRST to do anything other then having pandas.
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I have not played WoW for a few years. But I will say some tings that make it stand out from the crowd:
The characters and stories are ingrained into the content very well. It gives context to what you are doing.
While other games have their charm, WoW is by far the most polished of the genre. Historically I mostly played EQ1 and then EQ2, and didn't see the appeal of WoW at first, but having dabbled in it a few times (during BC, WOTLK and again recently) it is hard to fault it for what it is.
I can understand people getting burnt out from the game, it is after all a themepark, and content is finite. But pet battles and so forth have certainly added variety to endgame.
As a player who has used spreadsheets in the past to maximise my DPS, and is a scientist in real life, I don't really understand the hatred towards the MoP changes to talents. It didn't dumb the game down, it just got rid of the clutter and added some actual viable choices. With the old system it was just an illusion of choice. Every person was one of 3 specs, or if they weren't, they had specced badly / sub-par. Now they got rid of the dud choices, and made it so there are a few flavour choices every 15 levels that are significantly different from one another. For instance my Druid can permanently run faster by 15%, get a teleport forward or get a unique movement skill based on the current form. Previously I would just get whatever was in the tree I needed for optimal damage / healing / tanking.
Is the game complex? No, but neither are most MMOs, the difference is that WoW guides players through it much better. I don't feel that games with 15 hotbars full of skills offer more challenge when all of them can bet dumbed down into a few macros.
Based on whats on the market at the moment, there really isn't much competition for WoW. Theres a few alternatives for those who like other IPs, or are burnt out from WoW, but nothing that really compares to the scope and polish of it. I don't think that will change until we see what the next crop of MMOs (mostly sandboxes) have to offer.
More to the point, which games do you prefer? That would probably be far more telling in why you don't like WoW.
Actually EQ2 had a Panda race - the Hua Mein (that you could turn into with an illusion) before World of Warcraft did.
Everquest 1 had more content than WoW, but EQ2 didn't, and hasn't ever caught up to be honest (and I have the 9 year veteran rewards, so I have had plenty of time to see it all). Everquest and WoW are nothing alike. EQ2 has become like WoW over the years (quest hubs and soloable levelling) as SoE tried to get some of the WoW pie, rather than sticking with the original harsh design (harsh death penalties and group centric gameplay after level 20).
What WoW did was take EQs ideas and make it palatable and user friendly for the masses. It was the first game to have many quality of life features such as large scale battlegrounds and dungeon finders. That's why it is successful.
Ah yeah thanks for clearing up a few mistakes about my post, haven't done all to much reasearch on all of it.
Lack of community? In LOTRO? What server are you on?
I see your point.
standard anti-WOW hyperbole which is used for trolling, has worked well for years.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Actually one of the biggest things that made WoW so successful is the fact that Sony completely relied on an nVidia technology that nVidia abandoned. The EQ2 graphics engine was (and still is) horrible. The game was nearly unplayable on anything but high end machines when it released while WoW would run on anything that had hardware specs higher than a toaster.
I know a LOT of people and several guilds that abandoned EQ2 early, not because of the gameplay, but because of the performance. They went to WoW as it was the only other new alternative and never came back.
I just built a new gaming rig with a i7-3770K processer, ATI 7950 3GB Video card and 16 GB of g.skill ram. Every game I run on ultra is as smooth as glass, with the exception of EQ2. Shocking for a nearly 10 year old game.
I have done the same thing, taking breaks from playing WOW of up to a year and have done this in other MMO's too though the recent trend of the poorer 'WOW' clones going F2P has meant that I can play some games more frequently and taking breaks no longer apply. Where I disagree with you is when you say -
'Much of the hatred directed towards WoW is probably due to jealousy. The fact of the matter is that no matter what the pretenders in the MMO market say, none of them can even sniff WoW's player base and probably never will. '
I think that Wildstar will do this. Within two years of their release I believe they may very well eclipse WOW in numbers. Why? Wildstar has a similar look and humor that will attract WOW players ( myself included ) and yet the game play and setting are different enough to hold even the most jaded MMO player that is tired of the same old fantasy world.
The problem's that Carbine might run into are- can they push out content fast enough, is PVP fast and fun, and is their end game compelling enough to stick around for ? Only time will tell but I for one wish them well and I will be playing .
I wonder what's the drive behind these guys ...
It must have a name by now. PIS? Post internet syndrom ?
Blizzard is a great developer that does a pretty good job of listening to feedback. I may not like the all the changes that they make to the game design or direction (in fact I hate most of them from the last few expansions), but I do respect the fact that they ARE changing and updating things.
They are also great at releasing polished and stable products in a market that is very much known for it's problem with game bugs and missing features.
So basically, WoW is a well-oiled machine that has a lot of character and soul backed by rich lore and history. And for better or worse, they've done a good job of changing with the industry and not simply resting on past success. The fact that still no MMO developer has managed to touch WoW speaks to that.
You make me like charity
Are we talking about World of warcraft? I highly doubt you played Vanilla wow, because that is the most absurdly wrong thing I have ever heard. The community was obscenely massive and players were everywhere. You couldn't go 2 minutes no matter where you were without running into another player. The classes were diverse, albeit their talents were either bland, or over powered. The dungeons were not identical in any way. Blackrock Depths, completely different from Maraudon, Dire Maul, completely different from Zul'Farrak or Gnomeregan or Sunken Temple. You are so gravely mistaken here it's insane. I felt that this game was insanely polished and well made. The development team was top notch and everything was very well done. Sure, there were some bugs and things would glitch out at times, but what mmo doesn't have this sort of problem in it's infancy?
kek
I have done End-Game in every aspect of WoW, from vanilla running Blackwing Lair, Zul'Gurub, Molten Core etc, the Burning Crusade (Didn't get to run Sunwell), made Wratch of Lich King my bitch, and ran a lot of end game Cata as well before I ended up quitting about a month before the actual Deathwing patch went live.
Unfortunately I cannot add to this, as I do not play. I lost interest in the game during Cataclysm. So many aspects just turned me off, and the design and game changes they made just killed it for me. It was glorious, I had a good run for the 4-5 years or how ever long it was, but I believe it's time is over for me.
I think it may be time for you to quit man. Once you stop enjoying it, why continue to play at all?