The MMO market is not really the turf for indies to do their first game. Especially because the MMO player wants eye candy which is expensive to provide and at the same time boring for creative minds.
There is easier money to earn with mobile games and that is exactly what sucessful indie devs are producing.
This I agree with completely. MMORPGs are big dev projects, plain and simple. Also, Mobile is the ideal platform for indie.
If you are not familiar with low level network programming and more importantly working with other team members asynchronously, you will have a harder path.
That being said, it is a fun hobby. I'm on my 2nd indie mmorpg and loving it.
Besides, maybe, just maybe, it becomes a hit and I can quit my day job.
If you are an indie that hasn't made a large-scale game before then I agree that you shouldn't make the mistake of diving into an MMO. However, saying, that no indies should make them is a massive mistake. Indies are the ones that can take the chances and take the risks to make something new and exciting. The big corporations are the ones that can't afford to take the risks with something new, so we get the same old games over and over.
Heck no. Indies can and should continue to push forward. Indies produce alot of great stuff, much of it better then what you see from the big publishers. It just tends not to be MMO's in the traditional sense.....though alot of it is becoming more and more "MMO like" ....and frankly there is a blurring of the lines.
If you are looking for exactly what the AAA publishers produce then you should probably stick with them. However alot of us AREN'T looking for that and are more then happy to sacrifice fancy graphics and presentation features to get the type of gameplay we enjoy. As long as the indies are realistic about what they can deliver, realistic about what expectations they set for thier customers and realistic about thier budgets they can do perfectly well.
Frankly it's the AAA Big Bidget MMO Titles that have had the greatest difficulty lately. That's because even though the market has grown hugely, it hasn't grown enough to keep pace with all the competition for the gamers dollars. There is a TON of competition for gaming dollars....not just from MMO's but from all sorts of different games.... no matter how big the market is, there is only room for just so many AAA big budget titles.....and with the market saturated with offerings, it's natural that many of them are going to struggle for enough market share to justify the expense that went into building them.
Originally posted by GoldFire33 If you are an indie that hasn't made a large-scale game before then I agree that you shouldn't make the mistake of diving into an MMO. However, saying, that no indies should make them is a massive mistake. Indies are the ones that can take the chances and take the risks to make something new and exciting. The big corporations are the ones that can't afford to take the risks with something new, so we get the same old games over and over.
Agreed. The hurdle is that every clown with a 3D engine and scribbles of elves calls themselves an 'indie' developer which is not only pretty darn arrogant but rather irresponsible, as people put faith and, more importantly, money behind these guys based on their claim to have some level of expertise. It also does a disservice to legitimate professionals in indie circles because it gives them a bad name.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Alders They should refocus on getting the basics right before trying to implement 101 awesome sandbox features.If the game feels terrible, unresponsive, and clunky then the rest doesn't matter.
This is the perfect response. Also, every company initially started as an indie company for the most part. Some companies are doing alright but the above comment is definitely something that these devs need to refocus.
This thread took off before I could really reply to the posts. I didn't mean that the Indie devs shouldn't even try to make games. I'm saying, that the MMO market is so full of failed attempts, that they shouldn't try to compete with the titles already out there unless they have a very new, solid idea with a sound business model that can capture a niche market - Minecraft, did it, Mount & Blade did it (albeit it's more of a MMOFPS), DayZ also did it, and so did World of Tanks, Hell, even King Arthur's Gold did it.
I think I was just about able to name every smaller developer that ever released a successful game in the past 8 years though, in that one line. I could take the next 5 pages to list the ones that have failed miserably, or just remained static.
In the long run, from the finicky consumer and business perspective though, the smaller devs that release titles like Darkfall, Xsyon and Mortal Online, do a disservice to the genre. Their games appeal hugely to a small portion of people who drool over them and fork over money for an early access, but the companies don't have the resources to sustain a massive, long-term game. When to game does poorly or just "average" the would-be up and coming AAA developers see the genre as a failure and opt to release the next WoW clone instead of taking a chance in that smaller market.
My personal opinion is to drop the AAA titles entirely and support nothing but the indie titles that "do it right". Not the ones looking to crush WoW or take over EVE crowds, but the ones releasing a simple concept they can execute to near perfection without the hassle of overhead, headaches and delays.
Sadly, most of those seem to be in the single-player market lately, with some good smaller games/concepts like Spelunky, BeamNG, Project Zomboid, Hotline Miami, etc. I'd still rather contribute to those developers who know how much they can handle and don't bite off more than they can chew, than remain part of the ongoing problem with independent MMO failures like we've been plagued with for the past decade.
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This I agree with completely. MMORPGs are big dev projects, plain and simple. Also, Mobile is the ideal platform for indie.
If you are not familiar with low level network programming and more importantly working with other team members asynchronously, you will have a harder path.
That being said, it is a fun hobby. I'm on my 2nd indie mmorpg and loving it.
Besides, maybe, just maybe, it becomes a hit and I can quit my day job.
-WL
Werewolf Online(R) - Lead Developer
CasinoRPG - Free Casino MMORPG
GoldFire Studios
Heck no. Indies can and should continue to push forward. Indies produce alot of great stuff, much of it better then what you see from the big publishers. It just tends not to be MMO's in the traditional sense.....though alot of it is becoming more and more "MMO like" ....and frankly there is a blurring of the lines.
If you are looking for exactly what the AAA publishers produce then you should probably stick with them. However alot of us AREN'T looking for that and are more then happy to sacrifice fancy graphics and presentation features to get the type of gameplay we enjoy. As long as the indies are realistic about what they can deliver, realistic about what expectations they set for thier customers and realistic about thier budgets they can do perfectly well.
Frankly it's the AAA Big Bidget MMO Titles that have had the greatest difficulty lately. That's because even though the market has grown hugely, it hasn't grown enough to keep pace with all the competition for the gamers dollars. There is a TON of competition for gaming dollars....not just from MMO's but from all sorts of different games.... no matter how big the market is, there is only room for just so many AAA big budget titles.....and with the market saturated with offerings, it's natural that many of them are going to struggle for enough market share to justify the expense that went into building them.
Agreed. The hurdle is that every clown with a 3D engine and scribbles of elves calls themselves an 'indie' developer which is not only pretty darn arrogant but rather irresponsible, as people put faith and, more importantly, money behind these guys based on their claim to have some level of expertise. It also does a disservice to legitimate professionals in indie circles because it gives them a bad name.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
This is the perfect response. Also, every company initially started as an indie company for the most part. Some companies are doing alright but the above comment is definitely something that these devs need to refocus.
This thread took off before I could really reply to the posts. I didn't mean that the Indie devs shouldn't even try to make games. I'm saying, that the MMO market is so full of failed attempts, that they shouldn't try to compete with the titles already out there unless they have a very new, solid idea with a sound business model that can capture a niche market - Minecraft, did it, Mount & Blade did it (albeit it's more of a MMOFPS), DayZ also did it, and so did World of Tanks, Hell, even King Arthur's Gold did it.
I think I was just about able to name every smaller developer that ever released a successful game in the past 8 years though, in that one line. I could take the next 5 pages to list the ones that have failed miserably, or just remained static.
In the long run, from the finicky consumer and business perspective though, the smaller devs that release titles like Darkfall, Xsyon and Mortal Online, do a disservice to the genre. Their games appeal hugely to a small portion of people who drool over them and fork over money for an early access, but the companies don't have the resources to sustain a massive, long-term game. When to game does poorly or just "average" the would-be up and coming AAA developers see the genre as a failure and opt to release the next WoW clone instead of taking a chance in that smaller market.
My personal opinion is to drop the AAA titles entirely and support nothing but the indie titles that "do it right". Not the ones looking to crush WoW or take over EVE crowds, but the ones releasing a simple concept they can execute to near perfection without the hassle of overhead, headaches and delays.
Sadly, most of those seem to be in the single-player market lately, with some good smaller games/concepts like Spelunky, BeamNG, Project Zomboid, Hotline Miami, etc. I'd still rather contribute to those developers who know how much they can handle and don't bite off more than they can chew, than remain part of the ongoing problem with independent MMO failures like we've been plagued with for the past decade.