I don't play MMO to be the first to level or press the win button, to many mmo people concerned with what other mmo players are doing. If some players want to buy cash to help them level quicker why should i give a flying f..k, seriously stop watching others and get on with your own game.
Me and my guild/friends have our own chat channels and enjoy our own game no matter if iwtfpawns is buying gold to level.
Reading some of the posts in this thread outrage me so many of you have obviously never played a actual pay to win game because your answers would be very different if you can earn something in game and its also for sale im sorry but its not p2w Xp boost aswell are not p2w. Best example of this I can give is a game I played a few years back that had a large cash shop full of many weapons and armours that were unattainable in game. To the point of the weapons were about 300 percent better than anything you could earn in game and the armour well made you god like best weapon in the game could barely scratch your armour if you had bought it from the cash shop.
So as I was saying its only P2W if you can buy it from cash shop it is massively better than anything in game and you cant earn it through playing the actual game.
Reading some of the posts in this thread outrage me so many of you have obviously never played a actual pay to win game because your answers would be very different if you can earn something in game and its also for sale im sorry but its not p2w Xp boost aswell are not p2w. Best example of this I can give is a game I played a few years back that had a large cash shop full of many weapons and armours that were unattainable in game. To the point of the weapons were about 300 percent better than anything you could earn in game and the armour well made you god like best weapon in the game could barely scratch your armour if you had bought it from the cash shop.
So as I was saying its only P2W if you can buy it from cash shop it is massively better than anything in game and you cant earn it through playing the actual game.
My answer's still "yes". I don't care what kind of strawmen some of you stick on a pole.
Only if the object of the game was to ______. So far, I haven't come across such an issue.
Like UtukuMoon above, I really couldn't care less how you choose to enjoy your experience. My concern is solely the degree to which I enjoy mine.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I think F2P is akin to socialism but it's oddly accepted. The payers subsidize the game for people who don't want to, or refuse to pay. However, the profit potential for F2P games is higher because there's no cap on profit from the player, which is probably why companies moved from Sub to "F2P". Along with the fact that "Nobody" pays. Someone somewhere has to pay, and when they do, they pay an insane amount in some games. People spent hundreds on gambling in Cosmic Break for a chance at the cute/sexy character you could get.
You need to stop using big words you don't know the meaning of. The key aspect of "socialism" is that it is forced on you, at the point of a gun, you have to participate in it whether you like it or not, or leave the country. Perhaps you are chained in a dungeon somewhere though, forced to play MMOs,, who knows...
F2P games are more like the equivalent of Microsoft giving schools free versions of MS office, but charging businesses full price. Since even if there is no immediate profit, in the end there is value to having a whole generation of kids trained to use your products at an early age. Just like there is value in having non-paying players in F2p games get so hooked they eventually want to pay for something cool, or they add to the MMO social atmosphere or economy player base which makes the game more enjoyable for those who do pay.
I think F2P is akin to socialism but it's oddly accepted. The payers subsidize the game for people who don't want to, or refuse to pay. However, the profit potential for F2P games is higher because there's no cap on profit from the player, which is probably why companies moved from Sub to "F2P". Along with the fact that "Nobody" pays. Someone somewhere has to pay, and when they do, they pay an insane amount in some games. People spent hundreds on gambling in Cosmic Break for a chance at the cute/sexy character you could get.
You need to stop using big words you don't know the meaning of. The key aspect of "socialism" is that it is forced on you, at the point of a gun, you have to participate in it whether you like it or not, or leave the country. Perhaps you are chained in a dungeon somewhere though, forced to play MMOs,, who knows...
F2P games are more like the equivalent of Microsoft giving schools free versions of MS office, but charging businesses full price. Since even if there is no immediate profit, in the end there is value to having a whole generation of kids trained to use your products at an early age. Just like there is value in having non-paying players in F2p games get so hooked they eventually want to pay for something cool, or they add to the MMO social atmosphere or economy player base which makes the game more enjoyable for those who do pay.
Holy cow, man. I don't know where you came from, but I am damn glad that you are here.
Mad props for some common sense and grounded logic.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Games like Maplestory are P2W. When a cash shop becomes essential for gameplay and alters gear in a way that is needed that's what I consider P2W.
For example, I wouldn't consider SWTOR P2W even though it sells gear in the cash shop. It sells lower leveled gear as a shortcut, but that gear can be obtained in game as well. In Maplestory, getting the best gear required getting items from the cash shop. And people were MUCH MUCH stronger compared to those who didn't buy from the cash shop.
A person in SWTOR can spend much time in the cash shop with all the best gear and once they get to end game they'll be in the same scenario as the person who didn't buy from the cash shop: end game gear grind. That's not p2w.
Games that I don't consider p2w: swtor, tera, gw2, rift, etc.
When I play I MMO or MMORPG I already know the majority of players will reach cap level long before I will/want to reach it. Person A buying his way to cap level or player B grinding 24/7 to reach cap level makes no real difference to me.
I am sure many will/can addept to their new "bought" powers, but I am also sure some want to experiance it more rpg style and actually develop their character along their(me incl.) yourney and arn't bothered with those who gained cap level before them.
I think people who play MMO's similar competitive like multiplayer FPS games might have more issue's with the "buy to power"
b2p!? Wait that's already being used...
Buy to Win, Buy to Power, to me not so much difference between those two. Questio remains if I am bothered.
Answer remains the same No. Unless players who reach cap level have multible feature's of preventing me to have fun. Hasn't happend to me yet and been playing for a long long time.
After skimming this thread some more I can only deduce that a large number of MMO players are extremely entitled, given their visceral reaction to F2p games.
Do any of them realize that if game devs could get by with a standard fixed subscription 15 dollars a month they would? Most prefer steady stable income. Unfortunately because many of you don’t have jobs or are too cheap to pay, they can’t do this, since they would be getting zero dollars from most of you and would go broke.
Thus their only choice is to 1) shutdown the game; or 2) change their payment method so that they can get more money from the customers who have jobs, to make the game sustainable, and make up for those paying nothing.
I swear though there are some people here that would rather a game shutdown than let others enjoy it on a f2p model. And as some posters have already pointed out, paying for convenience or time savings does not equal pay to win.
Well 8 months to get ____ is a pretty crappy return on time invested but in principle, I don't think it's P2W if the quick version costs $ and the slow version costs time.
I'm quite envious of friends who have lots of time to game, gather materials, run dungeons and generally progress their characters slowly but steadily over time. OTOH they may envy me the ability to plunk down cash for somewhat comparable items. Yet I balk too at the prices.
I like Rift's F2P model a lot but holy crap it takes a lot of cash to gear your toon if you don't grind. A quick look at the math and it's $150 just to get non-BiS gear that enables you to raid. So I grind a little and spend a little and hope for good RNG on drops.
Originally posted by 123443211234 Yes it is clearly paying for an advantage, which is the definition of p2w.
No. It is called PAY TO WIN for a reason. Getting something fast is NOT an advantage on its own. If it allows you to gain an advantage that CANNOT be gained by any other means ingame, THEN it is pay to win.
Do we need a new term for this type of design, that seems to be becoming standard fare?
Pay to Win? NO
Cheapens the experience for everyone to the point of why bother playing? YES
It makes the game shallow for those with the $$ to buy everything and makes the game pointless for those that actually PLAY THE GAME to achieve something when the person standing next to them "achieved" the same thing in 60 seconds charging it to a credit card.
It is a classic example of "Pay To Win" by advancing over another player by nullifying work required by charging your card.
Anyone who says otherwise has no idea what they're talking about, and have been brainwashed by Publishers into giving them money for time and saying it's "fair".
I've been gaming since before MMORPG came out and to be honest you could pay to win in every single MMORPG I've ever played. I had friends who paid their rent by selling Fungi Cloaks and max level characters in EQ. You could sell assets in UO etc. Raid teams would sell raid item drops for cash to players even when they were bind on pickup. If you want to spend real money to get an advantage in a game you ALWAYS have been able to, in every single MMORPG ever released. You could do it in Diablo 2 too which is why i always found the outrage over the RMAH so funny.
The things I don't like is when you basically cannot play the game without using the cash shop. Rift is an example of this, they just lock down your bagspace so much that you can't even do trade skills because you are always fighting against your inventory. SWTOR used to be awful this way too, you don't lock entire classes and races, don't lock me out of being able to make alts etc.
Thankfully sub games are dying though because those are the ultimate ripoff. Charge me for the box, charge me for expansions and charge for the server bandwidth (which is dirt cheap now so no longer needed). Then if I want to try it again I get to pay $15 for the privilege of playing what I already own. That is the only real scam in MMORPG these days.
Originally posted by BearKnight YesIt is a classic example of "Pay To Win" by advancing over another player by nullifying work required by charging your card.Anyone who says otherwise has no idea what they're talking about, and have been brainwashed by Publishers into giving them money for time and saying it's "fair".
Again I ask*, where is this definition you are using to determine that other people do not know what they are talking about?
* In the general sense, not you in particular.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Do we need a new term for this type of design, that seems to be becoming standard fare?
Isn't this standard F2P design? Granted 8 months to do anything is longer than most games take to play through all their content and move on to the next game lately but unless it's something like getting introductory PVP gear I don't see it as being P2W. P2W would mean that the thing in question gives you a big advantage over me in something competitive.
F2P games are going to let people queue jump over PVE grind. Hell, EVE, a game which charges a sub, allows people to just buy tons of ISK rather than grinding for it if they want. So I can't even suggest just avoiding F2P games if you don't like this sort of thing. Basically I think, if the thing you're doing is actually fun, put in the 8 months to get it. If it's not, find another game.
"Question: If it took you 8 months to ______, but it took me 2 weeks to _____ because I converted $$ to in game currency, would you consider that p2w? "
Yes.
This is what I believe:
There should never be in any MMO a connection between the Real and the Virtual in regards to Money / Currency. It should be IMPOSSIBLE for any real world money to influence or enhance any MMO gameplay experience.
ANY MMO were there is a way to transfer Real Money into the Virtual world of the MMO and/or back again, I consider a bad thing, I consider it cheating, plain and simple.
MMOs are supposed to be games without real world influence for financial benefit, not a paycheck, nor a slot machine. A player should bring themselves, and nothing more, into a MMO. Not their wallet, not their bank account. Just skill, determination, desire.
My opinion of course and I don't care who disagrees with me. On this point I will not compromise. I have quit certain particular MMOs over this.
Comments
I don't play MMO to be the first to level or press the win button, to many mmo people concerned with what other mmo players are doing. If some players want to buy cash to help them level quicker why should i give a flying f..k, seriously stop watching others and get on with your own game.
Me and my guild/friends have our own chat channels and enjoy our own game no matter if iwtfpawns is buying gold to level.
Once upon a time....
Reading some of the posts in this thread outrage me so many of you have obviously never played a actual pay to win game because your answers would be very different if you can earn something in game and its also for sale im sorry but its not p2w Xp boost aswell are not p2w. Best example of this I can give is a game I played a few years back that had a large cash shop full of many weapons and armours that were unattainable in game. To the point of the weapons were about 300 percent better than anything you could earn in game and the armour well made you god like best weapon in the game could barely scratch your armour if you had bought it from the cash shop.
So as I was saying its only P2W if you can buy it from cash shop it is massively better than anything in game and you cant earn it through playing the actual game.
My answer's still "yes". I don't care what kind of strawmen some of you stick on a pole.
Once upon a time....
Only if the object of the game was to ______. So far, I haven't come across such an issue.
Like UtukuMoon above, I really couldn't care less how you choose to enjoy your experience. My concern is solely the degree to which I enjoy mine.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You need to stop using big words you don't know the meaning of. The key aspect of "socialism" is that it is forced on you, at the point of a gun, you have to participate in it whether you like it or not, or leave the country. Perhaps you are chained in a dungeon somewhere though, forced to play MMOs,, who knows...
F2P games are more like the equivalent of Microsoft giving schools free versions of MS office, but charging businesses full price. Since even if there is no immediate profit, in the end there is value to having a whole generation of kids trained to use your products at an early age. Just like there is value in having non-paying players in F2p games get so hooked they eventually want to pay for something cool, or they add to the MMO social atmosphere or economy player base which makes the game more enjoyable for those who do pay.
Holy cow, man. I don't know where you came from, but I am damn glad that you are here.
Mad props for some common sense and grounded logic.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
No.
The most commonly accepted definition of P2W is when you can get something for real money that you cannot get REALISTICLY by other ingame means.
This is what breaks World of Tanks into the P2W mold on high tiers, but does not makes Everquest II option to buy a lvl 85 chart P2W.
PS. "something" has to be game balance breaking. Vanity items does not count.
Games like Maplestory are P2W. When a cash shop becomes essential for gameplay and alters gear in a way that is needed that's what I consider P2W.
For example, I wouldn't consider SWTOR P2W even though it sells gear in the cash shop. It sells lower leveled gear as a shortcut, but that gear can be obtained in game as well. In Maplestory, getting the best gear required getting items from the cash shop. And people were MUCH MUCH stronger compared to those who didn't buy from the cash shop.
A person in SWTOR can spend much time in the cash shop with all the best gear and once they get to end game they'll be in the same scenario as the person who didn't buy from the cash shop: end game gear grind. That's not p2w.
Games that I don't consider p2w: swtor, tera, gw2, rift, etc.
Buy to Win, Buy to Power, to me not so much difference between those two. Questio remains if I am bothered.
Answer remains the same No. Unless players who reach cap level have multible feature's of preventing me to have fun. Hasn't happend to me yet and been playing for a long long time.
After skimming this thread some more I can only deduce that a large number of MMO players are extremely entitled, given their visceral reaction to F2p games.
Do any of them realize that if game devs could get by with a standard fixed subscription 15 dollars a month they would? Most prefer steady stable income. Unfortunately because many of you don’t have jobs or are too cheap to pay, they can’t do this, since they would be getting zero dollars from most of you and would go broke.
Thus their only choice is to 1) shutdown the game; or 2) change their payment method so that they can get more money from the customers who have jobs, to make the game sustainable, and make up for those paying nothing.
I swear though there are some people here that would rather a game shutdown than let others enjoy it on a f2p model. And as some posters have already pointed out, paying for convenience or time savings does not equal pay to win.
Well 8 months to get ____ is a pretty crappy return on time invested but in principle, I don't think it's P2W if the quick version costs $ and the slow version costs time.
I'm quite envious of friends who have lots of time to game, gather materials, run dungeons and generally progress their characters slowly but steadily over time. OTOH they may envy me the ability to plunk down cash for somewhat comparable items. Yet I balk too at the prices.
I like Rift's F2P model a lot but holy crap it takes a lot of cash to gear your toon if you don't grind. A quick look at the math and it's $150 just to get non-BiS gear that enables you to raid. So I grind a little and spend a little and hope for good RNG on drops.
No. It is called PAY TO WIN for a reason. Getting something fast is NOT an advantage on its own. If it allows you to gain an advantage that CANNOT be gained by any other means ingame, THEN it is pay to win.
What advantage?? Both versions end up with the same reward.
One fun drawback is that ^ this attitude makes you virtually immune to several types of marketing strategy.
Pay to Win? NO
Cheapens the experience for everyone to the point of why bother playing? YES
It makes the game shallow for those with the $$ to buy everything and makes the game pointless for those that actually PLAY THE GAME to achieve something when the person standing next to them "achieved" the same thing in 60 seconds charging it to a credit card.
Lose/Lose
Where is this definition of which you speak?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Yes
It is a classic example of "Pay To Win" by advancing over another player by nullifying work required by charging your card.
Anyone who says otherwise has no idea what they're talking about, and have been brainwashed by Publishers into giving them money for time and saying it's "fair".
After all, MMOs are a Single Player experience.
Once upon a time....
Yup that would be a form of playing and paying and winning over someone taking for ever to do the same.
It depends on what is being sold to be honest.
I've been gaming since before MMORPG came out and to be honest you could pay to win in every single MMORPG I've ever played. I had friends who paid their rent by selling Fungi Cloaks and max level characters in EQ. You could sell assets in UO etc. Raid teams would sell raid item drops for cash to players even when they were bind on pickup. If you want to spend real money to get an advantage in a game you ALWAYS have been able to, in every single MMORPG ever released. You could do it in Diablo 2 too which is why i always found the outrage over the RMAH so funny.
The things I don't like is when you basically cannot play the game without using the cash shop. Rift is an example of this, they just lock down your bagspace so much that you can't even do trade skills because you are always fighting against your inventory. SWTOR used to be awful this way too, you don't lock entire classes and races, don't lock me out of being able to make alts etc.
Thankfully sub games are dying though because those are the ultimate ripoff. Charge me for the box, charge me for expansions and charge for the server bandwidth (which is dirt cheap now so no longer needed). Then if I want to try it again I get to pay $15 for the privilege of playing what I already own. That is the only real scam in MMORPG these days.
Again I ask*, where is this definition you are using to determine that other people do not know what they are talking about?
* In the general sense, not you in particular.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Isn't this standard F2P design? Granted 8 months to do anything is longer than most games take to play through all their content and move on to the next game lately but unless it's something like getting introductory PVP gear I don't see it as being P2W. P2W would mean that the thing in question gives you a big advantage over me in something competitive.
F2P games are going to let people queue jump over PVE grind. Hell, EVE, a game which charges a sub, allows people to just buy tons of ISK rather than grinding for it if they want. So I can't even suggest just avoiding F2P games if you don't like this sort of thing. Basically I think, if the thing you're doing is actually fun, put in the 8 months to get it. If it's not, find another game.
"Question: If it took you 8 months to ______, but it took me 2 weeks to _____ because I converted $$ to in game currency, would you consider that p2w? "
Yes.
This is what I believe:
There should never be in any MMO a connection between the Real and the Virtual in regards to Money / Currency. It should be IMPOSSIBLE for any real world money to influence or enhance any MMO gameplay experience.
ANY MMO were there is a way to transfer Real Money into the Virtual world of the MMO and/or back again, I consider a bad thing, I consider it cheating, plain and simple.
MMOs are supposed to be games without real world influence for financial benefit, not a paycheck, nor a slot machine. A player should bring themselves, and nothing more, into a MMO. Not their wallet, not their bank account. Just skill, determination, desire.
My opinion of course and I don't care who disagrees with me. On this point I will not compromise. I have quit certain particular MMOs over this.