Personally I wouldn't pick B because can't stand random queing a dungeon to be grouped with shitheads I don't know who just speed run a dungeon and don't give a flying ballsack about me or whoever else is in the group. It's nice to build a relationship with players in the game whether just friends, alliance, or guild and play the content together.
However, I see the appeal to people for random que. Mostly those who don't have patience to do the above, or the skills to do the above. Either or there is a preference.
I would like to just not see a random finder in the game at all, but doubt that will happen!
First and foremost lets clarify a couple things; a) you can always NOT use a queue if one is present and b) it takes FAR more skill to speed run a dungeon than it does to go slowly and calculated.
I'm not sure why there is this loud minority that doesn't like the dungeon queue's and therefore decide that they don't want anyone to have access to them. I don't like onions, it doesn't mean that I refuse to let anyone I know eat them. Let them include all the features that ANY modern MMO SHOULD have and if you don't like some of them you don't have to use them. Kind of like mods for WoW...personally I love modding my UI, getting everything just the way I like it. My roommate can't stand the maintenance of it all and doesn't use any mods at all, BUT HE DOESN'T BITCH THAT NO ONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO USE THEM!
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
Originally posted by FelixMajor Yeah but if onions didn't exist then you would never have to pick them off your food
I'm an adult, I don't have to pick things off my food it comes the way I order it or prepare it. If I don't like something I avoid it...asinine comparisons are just that.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
Originally posted by FelixMajor Yeah but if onions didn't exist then you would never have to pick them off your food
Just to further clarify, though, you do realize that it's better this feature is in anyhow right? Your minority that enjoys forming a group and these relationships (that you somehow think can't happen any other way) won't be using these queues only the "shitheads", as you so eloquently put it, will be. This effectively removes them from your world and lets you play unhindered by their horrible horrible need to rush to the end.
Personally I enjoy both, I like the option to do what I need to do with the time I have available AND I have the skill to keep up in speed runs and the tactical awareness to slow down and play that way as well (not that ANY MMO is challenging in the least). I don't begrudge those wanting to form their own groups or the ones that prefer to queue, I adapt to the environment and make sure I'm successful, but I guess that's where we differ.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
Originally posted by theniffrig How about making the players walk to a dungeon & meet people outside of it or in a nearby tavern who also want to go into the dungeon & then just group up that way? Anything that makes the MMO an MMO and not some lobby based loading screen fest.
I agree with this.
While I have no qualms with having a random group maker, I would prefer that you have to go to a nearby meeting point to form the group. Teleporting to dungeons from the middle of town needs to die out.
For people blaming dungeon finders for poor socialisation, I disagree. The reason WoW had a decline in socialisation was because random dungeon content got made so easy that it simply wasn't necessary. Granted I still have conversations in WoW dungeons, but theres no need to talk about strategies or what to CC anymore. There is no need to form a regular group because anyone can do the job, so why wait for that perfect group to log on?
Cataclysm actually brought back socialisation by making dungeons a lot harder (healer mana issues and a need for good CC), but that had fallen to the wayside with Pandaria, where only challenge mode dungeons (which are not available to randoms) provide hard group content.
Another of my pet peeves is this multiple difficulty thing. No. There shouldn't be a separate difficulty for the same content. EQ2 took it so far as to have solo versions of all its dungeons. It just cheapens the content and the world. Have easy dungeons and have hard dungeons. Make it a real progression. That's why I don't have a problem with random dungeon finders, if they make the content hard enough at the top levels, people will have to socialise if they want to overcome it.
For people blaming dungeon finders for poor socialisation, I disagree. The reason WoW had a decline in socialisation was because random dungeon content got made so easy that it simply wasn't necessary.
it was more than that
there was no option for Local server random grouping
you either had to already be in a group on your server - or toss your luck to cross server groupings
WOW could have had an option for local server random groupings, but that never happened
the current EQ2 DungeonFinder may suck (for other reasons)
Get rid of instances. Make dungeons progressively harder as you get deeper in. Let people solo at front and then move deeper as more people show up until they get a full group. Then when you want to group in a dungeon you just go kill junk there while LFG. This is how I played EQ, dunno why it wouldn't work now other than requiring more content.
I agree with evilastro, it's the difficulty, easy dungeons require no strategy. Make hard dungeons you force people to work together. I don't understand the only playing on the same server, I don't want to wait any longer than necessary to get into a group, but I guess you can complain to someone afterwards if they screw up and are on your same server?
I never played EQ, or any old school mmo. Like many people WoW was my first, and I keep going back to it. So I'm used to option B. I guess I wouldn't have a problem with having to jump through all the hoops required to do it the old school way, but with RNG the way it is with most games, it's tough to go through all that over and over and over, and not get the loot you need.
First - Why do so many people think that helping people find a group somehow must mean the there will be instanced dungeons? People do group just to explorer and adventure sometimes. Not everyone wants to crawl a dungeon tonight.
Second - How is this any different than posting yourself on the Jobs board stating "Have Bow, will travel, can adverture for 5 days only then need to return to my home." Then the good bartender who also manages the job board goes through and matches people seeking groups. You are still be randomly selected for groups, which you can always turn-down, but still in context of the game play and style.
what I really dislike about dungeon finders is that it makes it feel like it is all the game is about, also there wont ever be "Naggy runs", or the likes, it simply takes out the travel and coordinating with people, and removes alot of the world "feel". makes the game feel just about less, as a MMO to me.
easy accessable instances is boring imo, if that is all you got, even more I miss that instances always would have a "bigger purpose" in the old EQ2, it would be key points in long quests, which would give a sense of common goal.
I really dislike dungeon finders for the reasons others have stated. In addition it makes developers tend to build their dungeons for a full group and nothing but a full group. Sometimes it is fun to just cruise through a dungeon in a group of 2 or 3.
To me the optimal dungeon is to have a couple areas in the front where players can solo while they wait for a group. Then a few spots deeper in that can be tackled by a group of 3 while they wait for the group to fill up. Then a bunch of spots deeper in that are full group only.
You have catered to any group size in one area. Given players something to do while waiting for a group. Finding the group is kept pretty easy and you keep the social aspect of it as well.
Instead of whisking me away to my own private little box to play in you have made the dungeon and the world feel more alive and made me interact with others and dare I say even sometimes compete with them which isn't some big evil thing.
I just hope that they do not make this over instanced, but to be honest, I think it is going to be mostly instanced. If you are going to set up your tools to make dungeons and such at some point, it is easier if you make it into a package that can be accessed as a instance and you can put the portal somewhere to gain access. I hope I am wrong, we will see.
I just think the game is going to be super casual, very instanced, and from a hint of what they said, quest hubs will be a quest board where you can access/take all the quests from one source in a area....They did say their would be quests not offered or offered to different people, but that you no longer had the symbol above the head, but a way to access the whole area at once.
People have disagreed, but I also see probably 50-75% of the classes being in the cash shop, some may be 'elite' or something and you gotta go unlock them, but this would be a quick way to make money for them.
I hope I am wrong, but they will not provide any solid answers on how they are going to do anything, except that what makes sense....and what has made sense is instances and more moving towards mmos being a lobby game lately. They even conjure up LoL when they talk of gameplay.
Personally I wouldn't pick B because can't stand random queing a dungeon to be grouped with shitheads I don't know who just speed run a dungeon and don't give a flying ballsack about me or whoever else is in the group. It's nice to build a relationship with players in the game whether just friends, alliance, or guild and play the content together.
However, I see the appeal to people for random que. Mostly those who don't have patience to do the above, or the skills to do the above. Either or there is a preference.
I would like to just not see a random finder in the game at all, but doubt that will happen!
First and foremost lets clarify a couple things; a) you can always NOT use a queue if one is present and b) it takes FAR more skill to speed run a dungeon than it does to go slowly and calculated.
I'm not sure why there is this loud minority that doesn't like the dungeon queue's and therefore decide that they don't want anyone to have access to them. I don't like onions, it doesn't mean that I refuse to let anyone I know eat them. Let them include all the features that ANY modern MMO SHOULD have and if you don't like some of them you don't have to use them. Kind of like mods for WoW...personally I love modding my UI, getting everything just the way I like it. My roommate can't stand the maintenance of it all and doesn't use any mods at all, BUT HE DOESN'T BITCH THAT NO ONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO USE THEM!
/agree
And this is why I asked that question. Why wouldn't you make a game so both or all 3 sides get to choose how they want to group. It doesn't make sense to force people into random groups or force randoms to form groups on their own. Grouping should be something people want to do and it's well established that there are a few different ways people like to go about it.
Some will never form a group and don't want to ask to join one, but like being put into a group with other people. Others like to make their own groups to get the "right" people and then there is the group of friends who just want to play the game together. It shouldn't have to be all or nothing for any of them.
Indicating that You want to group, and for what. People can pick who they want, by tells or click.
Solves alot of issues, it keeps a social aspect (as opposed to automatching), while at the same time it doesn't get a management pain. Hanging out in a zone, tavern, dungeon entrance waiting for people to group with is a theorethical dream, it sounds good from a rp perspective but it won't work .. Even in the prime days of eq with many players with rp mindsets and few zones it weren't that great.
Automatching has been tried and tested the results are in..
So, good tools can be a way to not copy the mistakes.
I really dislike dungeon finders for the reasons others have stated. In addition it makes developers tend to build their dungeons for a full group and nothing but a full group. Sometimes it is fun to just cruise through a dungeon in a group of 2 or 3.
To me the optimal dungeon is to have a couple areas in the front where players can solo while they wait for a group. Then a few spots deeper in that can be tackled by a group of 3 while they wait for the group to fill up. Then a bunch of spots deeper in that are full group only.
You have catered to any group size in one area. Given players something to do while waiting for a group. Finding the group is kept pretty easy and you keep the social aspect of it as well.
Instead of whisking me away to my own private little box to play in you have made the dungeon and the world feel more alive and made me interact with others and dare I say even sometimes compete with them which isn't some big evil thing.
Comments
First and foremost lets clarify a couple things; a) you can always NOT use a queue if one is present and b) it takes FAR more skill to speed run a dungeon than it does to go slowly and calculated.
I'm not sure why there is this loud minority that doesn't like the dungeon queue's and therefore decide that they don't want anyone to have access to them. I don't like onions, it doesn't mean that I refuse to let anyone I know eat them. Let them include all the features that ANY modern MMO SHOULD have and if you don't like some of them you don't have to use them. Kind of like mods for WoW...personally I love modding my UI, getting everything just the way I like it. My roommate can't stand the maintenance of it all and doesn't use any mods at all, BUT HE DOESN'T BITCH THAT NO ONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO USE THEM!
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
Originally posted by Arskaaa
"when players learned tacticks in dungeon/raids, its bread".
I'm an adult, I don't have to pick things off my food it comes the way I order it or prepare it. If I don't like something I avoid it...asinine comparisons are just that.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
Just to further clarify, though, you do realize that it's better this feature is in anyhow right? Your minority that enjoys forming a group and these relationships (that you somehow think can't happen any other way) won't be using these queues only the "shitheads", as you so eloquently put it, will be. This effectively removes them from your world and lets you play unhindered by their horrible horrible need to rush to the end.
Personally I enjoy both, I like the option to do what I need to do with the time I have available AND I have the skill to keep up in speed runs and the tactical awareness to slow down and play that way as well (not that ANY MMO is challenging in the least). I don't begrudge those wanting to form their own groups or the ones that prefer to queue, I adapt to the environment and make sure I'm successful, but I guess that's where we differ.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
I agree with this.
While I have no qualms with having a random group maker, I would prefer that you have to go to a nearby meeting point to form the group. Teleporting to dungeons from the middle of town needs to die out.
For people blaming dungeon finders for poor socialisation, I disagree. The reason WoW had a decline in socialisation was because random dungeon content got made so easy that it simply wasn't necessary. Granted I still have conversations in WoW dungeons, but theres no need to talk about strategies or what to CC anymore. There is no need to form a regular group because anyone can do the job, so why wait for that perfect group to log on?
Cataclysm actually brought back socialisation by making dungeons a lot harder (healer mana issues and a need for good CC), but that had fallen to the wayside with Pandaria, where only challenge mode dungeons (which are not available to randoms) provide hard group content.
Another of my pet peeves is this multiple difficulty thing. No. There shouldn't be a separate difficulty for the same content. EQ2 took it so far as to have solo versions of all its dungeons. It just cheapens the content and the world. Have easy dungeons and have hard dungeons. Make it a real progression. That's why I don't have a problem with random dungeon finders, if they make the content hard enough at the top levels, people will have to socialise if they want to overcome it.
it was more than that
there was no option for Local server random grouping
you either had to already be in a group on your server - or toss your luck to cross server groupings
WOW could have had an option for local server random groupings, but that never happened
the current EQ2 DungeonFinder may suck (for other reasons)
but at least it's players from your same server
EQ2 fan sites
Get rid of instances. Make dungeons progressively harder as you get deeper in. Let people solo at front and then move deeper as more people show up until they get a full group. Then when you want to group in a dungeon you just go kill junk there while LFG. This is how I played EQ, dunno why it wouldn't work now other than requiring more content.
I agree with evilastro, it's the difficulty, easy dungeons require no strategy. Make hard dungeons you force people to work together. I don't understand the only playing on the same server, I don't want to wait any longer than necessary to get into a group, but I guess you can complain to someone afterwards if they screw up and are on your same server?
I never played EQ, or any old school mmo. Like many people WoW was my first, and I keep going back to it. So I'm used to option B. I guess I wouldn't have a problem with having to jump through all the hoops required to do it the old school way, but with RNG the way it is with most games, it's tough to go through all that over and over and over, and not get the loot you need.
First - Why do so many people think that helping people find a group somehow must mean the there will be instanced dungeons? People do group just to explorer and adventure sometimes. Not everyone wants to crawl a dungeon tonight.
Second - How is this any different than posting yourself on the Jobs board stating "Have Bow, will travel, can adverture for 5 days only then need to return to my home." Then the good bartender who also manages the job board goes through and matches people seeking groups. You are still be randomly selected for groups, which you can always turn-down, but still in context of the game play and style.
or make new friends or find a new guildmate
I'm advocating local server random grouping as an option
you want your cross-server speed groupings? thats fine too
I'd like to see options for both -- not one or the other
EQ2 fan sites
what I really dislike about dungeon finders is that it makes it feel like it is all the game is about, also there wont ever be "Naggy runs", or the likes, it simply takes out the travel and coordinating with people, and removes alot of the world "feel". makes the game feel just about less, as a MMO to me.
easy accessable instances is boring imo, if that is all you got, even more I miss that instances always would have a "bigger purpose" in the old EQ2, it would be key points in long quests, which would give a sense of common goal.
I really dislike dungeon finders for the reasons others have stated. In addition it makes developers tend to build their dungeons for a full group and nothing but a full group. Sometimes it is fun to just cruise through a dungeon in a group of 2 or 3.
To me the optimal dungeon is to have a couple areas in the front where players can solo while they wait for a group. Then a few spots deeper in that can be tackled by a group of 3 while they wait for the group to fill up. Then a bunch of spots deeper in that are full group only.
You have catered to any group size in one area. Given players something to do while waiting for a group. Finding the group is kept pretty easy and you keep the social aspect of it as well.
Instead of whisking me away to my own private little box to play in you have made the dungeon and the world feel more alive and made me interact with others and dare I say even sometimes compete with them which isn't some big evil thing.
I just hope that they do not make this over instanced, but to be honest, I think it is going to be mostly instanced. If you are going to set up your tools to make dungeons and such at some point, it is easier if you make it into a package that can be accessed as a instance and you can put the portal somewhere to gain access. I hope I am wrong, we will see.
I just think the game is going to be super casual, very instanced, and from a hint of what they said, quest hubs will be a quest board where you can access/take all the quests from one source in a area....They did say their would be quests not offered or offered to different people, but that you no longer had the symbol above the head, but a way to access the whole area at once.
People have disagreed, but I also see probably 50-75% of the classes being in the cash shop, some may be 'elite' or something and you gotta go unlock them, but this would be a quick way to make money for them.
I hope I am wrong, but they will not provide any solid answers on how they are going to do anything, except that what makes sense....and what has made sense is instances and more moving towards mmos being a lobby game lately. They even conjure up LoL when they talk of gameplay.
/agree
And this is why I asked that question. Why wouldn't you make a game so both or all 3 sides get to choose how they want to group. It doesn't make sense to force people into random groups or force randoms to form groups on their own. Grouping should be something people want to do and it's well established that there are a few different ways people like to go about it.
Some will never form a group and don't want to ask to join one, but like being put into a group with other people. Others like to make their own groups to get the "right" people and then there is the group of friends who just want to play the game together. It shouldn't have to be all or nothing for any of them.
Option D, lfg tool.
Indicating that You want to group, and for what. People can pick who they want, by tells or click.
Solves alot of issues, it keeps a social aspect (as opposed to automatching), while at the same time it doesn't get a management pain. Hanging out in a zone, tavern, dungeon entrance waiting for people to group with is a theorethical dream, it sounds good from a rp perspective but it won't work .. Even in the prime days of eq with many players with rp mindsets and few zones it weren't that great.
Automatching has been tried and tested the results are in..
So, good tools can be a way to not copy the mistakes.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Totally agree. Nicely said.