I'm 25 years old. I've been playing MMORPG's since 1995.
Meridian 59 released 1996. Ultima Online released 1997. Everquest released 1999. Hate to nitpick, but I don't think you were playing any MMORPG's in 1995, when you were 7 years old, and no MMORPG was out yet. Anyway, to the point, I think most gamers start to feel that way after a while and just need to take a break. Try some other game genres out then come back to MMO's later on.
MUDs have been out since the 80s and are definitely MMOs
hell yea , i was playing Text-muds thru Quantum -Link on my Commodore 64 in the early 80s .. great times
Originally posted by Forgrimm You also have to realize that while games have evolved, us old-school players have aged and evolved as well. I started playing EQ back in '99 when I was 22 years old. I had no major responsibilities at the time besides a full-time job, and the MMO genre was brand new, that's what made it so amazing. Now I'm 35, have a family and a lot more responsibilities, and have no desire to play something as time consuming and tedious as the original EQ was back in its day. The whole generation that started playing the gen-1 MMO's has grown up now. And the new crop of MMO's has learned from the mistakes of past MMO's. Very few people would consider sitting around for 6 hours, camping a static spawn, only to have it not drop the item that they want, to be fun. It was fun back in the day because we didn't know any better, we had nothing else to compare it to, and it was new and shiny at the time.
THIS !
Its the same with my memories on p&p rpg. It was a ton of fun playing it with my mates when we were teens, but we grown up, times changes and people too.
Originally posted by Cephus404This is just more old school whining. Oh no, it's so horrible that the world doesn't stand still so I can do things I used to enjoy doing! There are tons of things that I've loved doing over the years that I no longer do because either the hobby has changed or I have. That's called reality. Old school gamers need to deal with it. They've stopped and the rest of the planet has moved on. The problem is them, not everyone else.
This argument would be more valid if your 'new school games' werent barren wastelands after 6 months. You're games are selling boxes, but not keeping subs or players. So maybe we're right, and you're wrong
MR.
Playing: None
Nice sig.
They aren't barren wastelands. They certainly have fewer players than they started with, but it would be impossible for them to not have fewer players than they started with. Everyone who's going to play a game hears about the game before it releases, and plays it when it releases.
Warhammer was a barren wasteland. We know this because it shutdown. SWToR isn't shutting down, neither is GW2. Both games are generating money and expansions. Rift has generated enough money for at least one game to get released and to finance bringing ArcheAge to the West. LotRO has a bunch of players, spending money on the game and financing expansions. It shows no indications of shutting down any time soon either.
That doesn't mean virtual worlds aren't a good thing. But the argument that not having a 'Virtual World' leads to any sort of financial failure isn't supported by the money games with theme park stages are making.
I think the issue is that most players just aren't focused on Virtual Worlds. The game comes first, the graphics second and whether or not the player is in a Virtual World is a bonus, not a requirement. I'm in the Virtual Worlds are good camp, but when I listen to most people talk about what they do and do not like, the world is never the main topic of discussion. It gets a mention, but it's never the topic.
They aren't? I think AOC has like 2 running servers, and even Rift, SWToR and LOTRO are lucky to have 10. These are not thriving games, even if they are still running and making money.
Thriving is 50, 100 active servers, so GW2 qualifies, or how about 1 server with 500K subs like EVE, those are titles that are thriving, and yes, compared to them most of the other games are failing even it its a bit of hyperbole to call them barren.
If you are making a major AAA theme park, then your benchmark is WOW, both in total subs and retention over the long haul. Heck, shoot for 1/10 of WOW's success and make it last for a decade, that's goal worth measuring against.
Having sales profiles of the average single player game is nothing to point at when defining success.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by pb1285n "New school" games aren't about selling boxes as you put it. Rarely does an MMO make a profit on box sales. The reason for the big drop in subscribers has less to do with the quality of the game and more to do with the number of options gamers have in games. 10-15 years ago your options were pretty limited in terms of MMOs. Nowadays you have 3-4 high profile MMO releases a year and even more if you count indie releases. If you had the kinds of options we have now back then I'm sure you'd have the same decrease in membership a few months after release of a new game.
That's exactly true, but it usually isn't 3-4 games a year, it's usually 3-4 games a month. Now, there are so many games on the market that it makes no sense to stick with a game that you don't like. Where once there were very few options and many people kept playing a game because their only option was not playing a game at all, today there's no reason whatsoever to stick with something you're not enjoying because there are tons of other alternatives. That's the same reason television ratings have changed so dramatically over the years, people used to have a choice of 3-4 channels, now they have hundreds. There's no reason to watch something you don't like.
I'm pretty sure you two nailed it on the head. People don't have to stick around on the same MMORPG because they don't know any better anymore. Back in EQ's prime, there was hardly any info on it or other online games. Heck the internet for the general public was still pretty much in infant status so even less people had access to the game period, much less getting info about. Now there is almost a computer in every home and just about all of those have the internet. We also now have several MMO websites and many other gaming websites, TV channels, and youtube to show us whats out as far as games go and what is on the horizon. Of course there are also many MMO games to play anyways other than just what our choices were back in 1999. Today's gamer is a lot more informed than the gamer from 15 years ago. Some "Old Schoolers" want to blame devs or the younger generation of gamers for the reason games are the way they are instead of just looking at simple facts.
Originally posted by Forgrimm You also have to realize that while games have evolved, us old-school players have aged and evolved as well. I started playing EQ back in '99 when I was 22 years old. I had no major responsibilities at the time besides a full-time job, and the MMO genre was brand new, that's what made it so amazing. Now I'm 35, have a family and a lot more responsibilities, and have no desire to play something as time consuming and tedious as the original EQ was back in its day. The whole generation that started playing the gen-1 MMO's has grown up now. And the new crop of MMO's has learned from the mistakes of past MMO's. Very few people would consider sitting around for 6 hours, camping a static spawn, only to have it not drop the item that they want, to be fun. It was fun back in the day because we didn't know any better, we had nothing else to compare it to, and it was new and shiny at the time.
They aren't? I think AOC has like 2 running servers, and even Rift, SWToR and LOTRO are lucky to have 10. These are not thriving games, even if they are still running and making money.
Thriving is 50, 100 active servers, so GW2 qualifies, or how about 1 server with 500K subs like EVE, those are titles that are thriving, and yes, compared to them most of the other games are failing even it its a bit of hyperbole to call them barren.
If you are making a major AAA theme park, then your benchmark is WOW, both in total subs and retention over the long haul. Heck, shoot for 1/10 of WOW's success and make it last for a decade, that's goal worth measuring against.
Having sales profiles of the average single player game is nothing to point at when defining success.
So what? What difference does it make how many servers they have? You can only play on one server at a time anyhow so how does this affect anything?
They aren't? I think AOC has like 2 running servers, and even Rift, SWToR and LOTRO are lucky to have 10. These are not thriving games, even if they are still running and making money.
Thriving is 50, 100 active servers, so GW2 qualifies, or how about 1 server with 500K subs like EVE, those are titles that are thriving, and yes, compared to them most of the other games are failing even it its a bit of hyperbole to call them barren.
If you are making a major AAA theme park, then your benchmark is WOW, both in total subs and retention over the long haul. Heck, shoot for 1/10 of WOW's success and make it last for a decade, that's goal worth measuring against.
Having sales profiles of the average single player game is nothing to point at when defining success.
Lets get few things straight. That 500k is the combined subscribers from both Chinese and Western servers. And subscribers don't necessarily make the world feel less barren.
Especially in the case of Eve Online where you don't have to log in for progress. A friend of mine logs into Eve maybe twice a month and he still makes enough ISK to pay for multiple accounts all the while accumulating skill points. Technically, he is still playing the game, but not really.
I'm pretty sure the feeling of population comes from the number of players relative to their shared gamespace and not from the number of subscribers.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
When I was in my early to mid twenties, I experienced my first real sense of retrospect. Its a profound feeling and it takes a while to wrap your head around the passage of time and how things change.
Perhaps the OP is going through one of those epiphanies. And I hope he does not get hung up on blaming the world.
I'm 25 years old. I've been playing MMORPG's since 1995.
Meridian 59 released 1996. Ultima Online released 1997. Everquest released 1999. Hate to nitpick, but I don't think you were playing any MMORPG's in 1995, when you were 7 years old, and no MMORPG was out yet. Anyway, to the point, I think most gamers start to feel that way after a while and just need to take a break. Try some other game genres out then come back to MMO's later on.
I apologize it was 1996. AOL's The Realm Online came out in 1996. I was 8 years old, and I played it almost every day until I was 12. You will have a hard time finding a human being on this earth that has atleast tried/played more ORPG/MMOs than me 60 years old or 3 years old. except you are on a site filled with people like yourself? Most of us have been playing as long or longer... Not to stop you from tooting your own horn but you aren't special in this forum sir, and most of us aren't crying about not having a game to play, we just play games.
AND! While I'm at it, I hate that people act like 'mmo' is a genre.
IT ISNT!
Ask anyone who was there for the first 'MMO's. They weren't called that, they were just 'online' versions of their offline counterparts. What the industry has repeatedly tried to do is hilariously futile.
Edit: btw, Realm is the longest running ORPG of all time, still has subs to this day and I THINK it came out before Meridian did.
The problem is that the origial MUDs/MMO's catered to 'nerds' and 'gamers' (Pen and Paper gamers) who loved complex systems and deep mechanics.
Computers became 'mainstream' and games were dumbed down to the lowest average to tap into the revenue stream of the "new" P.C. users.. Now that grandma is even online the "dumbing down" continues...
Its a natural evolution and there is no fighting this.
-The "hope" is on the indie front but right now the tech just isnt there.
I personally have went back to Tabletop gaming (Pathfinder is a good new system) and single player games or Online Strategy games. Also picked up GW (the original) to scratch my 'mmo' itch and its surprisingly good for what it is.
I dont think people truly get "burned out" I still play WoW and Tera religiously. I think people have just gotten tired of repetition and mediocrity. People are tired of playing MMOs that are exactly the same and lack depth. It has turned them off from the genre. If something comes along that catches peoples attention, no matter how "burnt out" they are they'll try it.
Old MMOs weren't as good as you think - and modern ones aren't nearly as bad.
What you have to understand is that you grow up and change. I used to LOVE baseball. I could watch all the TV games. It's way to slow for me now - and I can only really watch it live. I used to LOVE JRPGs. I played the 8 bit Final Fantasy and stuff. Now that I am older it seems amazingly limited at shallow.
Field of Dreams wasn't really that good - nor was Forest Gump. I used to really want a CRX - but when I drove one recently I found I preferred my Audi - automatic transmissions and all.
GW2 is really pretty respectable. It doesn't get me 'addicted' like the old games did -but part of the problem is ME. Wildstar looks pretty promising too. Sure it looks "WoW like' But BC WoW was pretty darn good.
Originally posted by Forgrimm You also have to realize that while games have evolved, us old-school players have aged and evolved as well. I started playing EQ back in '99 when I was 22 years old. I had no major responsibilities at the time besides a full-time job, and the MMO genre was brand new, that's what made it so amazing. Now I'm 35, have a family and a lot more responsibilities, and have no desire to play something as time consuming and tedious as the original EQ was back in its day. The whole generation that started playing the gen-1 MMO's has grown up now. And the new crop of MMO's has learned from the mistakes of past MMO's. Very few people would consider sitting around for 6 hours, camping a static spawn, only to have it not drop the item that they want, to be fun. It was fun back in the day because we didn't know any better, we had nothing else to compare it to, and it was new and shiny at the time.
I have to quote this, because when I was 14 years old I used to say things like "I despise bass, what real band needs it"? Games are evolving, find your niche because as the industry evolves in gaming's favour, or against gaming's favour, you have to find your place in it all or else you will be stuck playing and paying absurd amounts of money and time on content and games you wish you never heard of!
Originally posted by Arskaaa "when players learned tacticks in dungeon/raids, its bread".
Old MMOs weren't as good as you think - and modern ones aren't nearly as bad.
What you have to understand is that you grow up and change. I used to LOVE baseball. I could watch all the TV games. It's way to slow for me now - and I can only really watch it live. I used to LOVE JRPGs. I played the 8 bit Final Fantasy and stuff. Now that I am older it seems amazingly limited at shallow.
Field of Dreams wasn't really that good - nor was Forest Gump. I used to really want a CRX - but when I drove one recently I found I preferred my Audi - automatic transmissions and all.
GW2 is really pretty respectable. It doesn't get me 'addicted' like the old games did -but part of the problem is ME. Wildstar looks pretty promising too. Sure it looks "WoW like' But BC WoW was pretty darn good.
Field of Dreams? Out of all the movies from the '80's, what made you think of that one?
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Originally posted by simsalabim77 So go do something else you enjoy and if you get the itch to play an MMO come back to the genre. Some of you guys have like this weird dependency on these games. It's perfectly normal to get bored of thing after immersing yourself in them for an entire decade.
I think you missed the point of the entire post. He's not tired of MMOs, and the fact that you can't understand why people found older MMOs special shows you're from a newer generation where MMOs are just mostly singleplayer games with generic content, not the bleeding edge of the future social virtual worlds they used to be.
The genre, as we knew it, hasn't been around since 2004, and we miss it.
I left mmo's for console games a while back but these problems OP mentioned have leaked into all venues. Make stuff easy to break so people be discontented and go buy even more in hopes of finding that once-upon-a-time rush. Still, I haven't suffered to badly just yet. I prefer forum chat over in-game chat so I've got peeps on the console forums. I've had a lot more fun playing Skyrim than I ever had playing any mmo. Sims 2 as well (tho the rest of the sims series is crap and TS2 is very hard to manage; you have to research a lot to keep the game from crashing).
What bothers me is the fire cracker the economy has become do to having an enemy plant for a president. Hopefully we can show that old fashion spirit of love and pull thru these times. I'm not slowing my spending down. I refuse to give in to the panic that would lead to another Depression. But I'm not going to buy crap either. We'll see.
Originally posted by Vutar You are correct OP. MMO's are now being made for the lowest common denominator. No adventure, no achievement, no exploration, and certainly nothing resembling a world that you can get lost in. If little Timmy had to think for himself in game he would rage. Can't have that. Little Timmy is the future after all.
It is funny because although the games are really doing little in these categories,they will try and fool gamer's by creating what they call "adventure mode",they also have cheap achievements in games and it is almost impossible to ever get lost in an instance.There are games even using instant travel,hard to get lost or dive into an adventure when all you do is auto warp around.
The term think,might scare some people but it has got sooooo bad with the inception of Wow that all people look for in games now is that first yellow marker over a npc head.Between yellow markers on npc's and on maps and sparklies or arrows in game and the internet WIKI,players need not think at all.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Originally posted by Forgrimm You also have to realize that while games have evolved, us old-school players have aged and evolved as well. I started playing EQ back in '99 when I was 22 years old. I had no major responsibilities at the time besides a full-time job, and the MMO genre was brand new, that's what made it so amazing. Now I'm 35, have a family and a lot more responsibilities, and have no desire to play something as time consuming and tedious as the original EQ was back in its day. The whole generation that started playing the gen-1 MMO's has grown up now. And the new crop of MMO's has learned from the mistakes of past MMO's. Very few people would consider sitting around for 6 hours, camping a static spawn, only to have it not drop the item that they want, to be fun. It was fun back in the day because we didn't know any better, we had nothing else to compare it to, and it was new and shiny at the time.
AMEN
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Originally posted by Forgrimm You also have to realize that while games have evolved, us old-school players have aged and evolved as well. I started playing EQ back in '99 when I was 22 years old. I had no major responsibilities at the time besides a full-time job, and the MMO genre was brand new, that's what made it so amazing. Now I'm 35, have a family and a lot more responsibilities, and have no desire to play something as time consuming and tedious as the original EQ was back in its day. The whole generation that started playing the gen-1 MMO's has grown up now. And the new crop of MMO's has learned from the mistakes of past MMO's. Very few people would consider sitting around for 6 hours, camping a static spawn, only to have it not drop the item that they want, to be fun. It was fun back in the day because we didn't know any better, we had nothing else to compare it to, and it was new and shiny at the time.
AMEN
This argument always puzzles me. Do you guys think everyone was 22 ten years ago and had tons of free time? I was 46, with a wife, 3 children and a 50+ hour a week job, yet I found plenty of time to carve out some fun in the old school MMORPG's.
No, I didn't do many of those 6 hour raid camps you are describing, but it never really serves to bolster an argument by pointing out the most extreme examples of content unplayable by the more casual gamer when you are over looking the huge amount of content that was available to a player like me.
Trust me, you could find time to play the original EQ even with your current responsibilities, but you would play it differently, just as I had to.
Funny thing is the wheel comes around, now the kids are out of the house, so I have more time than ever to game but still I wouldn't do long raids. Deosn't mean I wouldn't enjoy some more challenging and even time consuming content.
Guess that's why I've been playing a DAOC freeshard set back to 2003 rules, with all the timesinks, crowd control, and RVR that the game is famous for (including the zerg like open world combat)
Trust me, if I could do it, you can do it, and you'll find sleep is really a very optional thing.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Kyleran Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by Spector88Originally posted by Cephus404This is just more old school whining. Oh no, it's so horrible that the world doesn't stand still so I can do things I used to enjoy doing! There are tons of things that I've loved doing over the years that I no longer do because either the hobby has changed or I have. That's called reality. Old school gamers need to deal with it. They've stopped and the rest of the planet has moved on. The problem is them, not everyone else.
This argument would be more valid if your 'new school games' werent barren wastelands after 6 months. You're games are selling boxes, but not keeping subs or players. So maybe we're right, and you're wrongMR.Playing: NoneNice sig. They aren't barren wastelands. They certainly have fewer players than they started with, but it would be impossible for them to not have fewer players than they started with. Everyone who's going to play a game hears about the game before it releases, and plays it when it releases. Warhammer was a barren wasteland. We know this because it shutdown. SWToR isn't shutting down, neither is GW2. Both games are generating money and expansions. Rift has generated enough money for at least one game to get released and to finance bringing ArcheAge to the West. LotRO has a bunch of players, spending money on the game and financing expansions. It shows no indications of shutting down any time soon either. That doesn't mean virtual worlds aren't a good thing. But the argument that not having a 'Virtual World' leads to any sort of financial failure isn't supported by the money games with theme park stages are making. I think the issue is that most players just aren't focused on Virtual Worlds. The game comes first, the graphics second and whether or not the player is in a Virtual World is a bonus, not a requirement. I'm in the Virtual Worlds are good camp, but when I listen to most people talk about what they do and do not like, the world is never the main topic of discussion. It gets a mention, but it's never the topic. They aren't? I think AOC has like 2 running servers, and even Rift, SWToR and LOTRO are lucky to have 10. These are not thriving games, even if they are still running and making money.
Thriving is 50, 100 active servers, so GW2 qualifies, or how about 1 server with 500K subs like EVE, those are titles that are thriving, and yes, compared to them most of the other games are failing even it its a bit of hyperbole to call them barren.
If you are making a major AAA theme park, then your benchmark is WOW, both in total subs and retention over the long haul. Heck, shoot for 1/10 of WOW's success and make it last for a decade, that's goal worth measuring against.
Having sales profiles of the average single player game is nothing to point at when defining success.
The games I listed aren't barren wastelands. SWToR and LotRO both have as many or more players than GW2 and Eve. AoC isn't doing nearly as well as Funcom would like, but they did make enough money of the game to build another game and they continue to make money off of both games. Log into either game and you'll see players on the servers, more than enough to play the games from level 1 through the end games. That's not a barren wasteland.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by Cephus404This is just more old school whining. Oh no, it's so horrible that the world doesn't stand still so I can do things I used to enjoy doing! There are tons of things that I've loved doing over the years that I no longer do because either the hobby has changed or I have. That's called reality. Old school gamers need to deal with it. They've stopped and the rest of the planet has moved on. The problem is them, not everyone else.
This argument would be more valid if your 'new school games' werent barren wastelands after 6 months. You're games are selling boxes, but not keeping subs or players. So maybe we're right, and you're wrongMR.Playing: NoneNice sig.
They aren't barren wastelands. They certainly have fewer players than they started with, but it would be impossible for them to not have fewer players than they started with. Everyone who's going to play a game hears about the game before it releases, and plays it when it releases. Warhammer was a barren wasteland. We know this because it shutdown. SWToR isn't shutting down, neither is GW2. Both games are generating money and expansions. Rift has generated enough money for at least one game to get released and to finance bringing ArcheAge to the West. LotRO has a bunch of players, spending money on the game and financing expansions. It shows no indications of shutting down any time soon either. That doesn't mean virtual worlds aren't a good thing. But the argument that not having a 'Virtual World' leads to any sort of financial failure isn't supported by the money games with theme park stages are making. I think the issue is that most players just aren't focused on Virtual Worlds. The game comes first, the graphics second and whether or not the player is in a Virtual World is a bonus, not a requirement. I'm in the Virtual Worlds are good camp, but when I listen to most people talk about what they do and do not like, the world is never the main topic of discussion. It gets a mention, but it's never the topic.
They aren't? I think AOC has like 2 running servers, and even Rift, SWToR and LOTRO are lucky to have 10. These are not thriving games, even if they are still running and making money.
Thriving is 50, 100 active servers, so GW2 qualifies, or how about 1 server with 500K subs like EVE, those are titles that are thriving, and yes, compared to them most of the other games are failing even it its a bit of hyperbole to call them barren.
If you are making a major AAA theme park, then your benchmark is WOW, both in total subs and retention over the long haul. Heck, shoot for 1/10 of WOW's success and make it last for a decade, that's goal worth measuring against.
Having sales profiles of the average single player game is nothing to point at when defining success.
The games I listed aren't barren wastelands. SWToR and LotRO both have as many or more players than GW2 and Eve. AoC isn't doing nearly as well as Funcom would like, but they did make enough money of the game to build another game and they continue to make money off of both games. Log into either game and you'll see players on the servers, more than enough to play the games from level 1 through the end games. That's not a barren wasteland.
No, I don't think they do if you just look at the number of servers those two titles have currently active, they aren't doing anywhere near as well as GW2 and EVE. (who are more forthright about their player numbers)
I play on a freeshard that has one server with enough players that you see and play with from level 1 to endgame but trust me, compared to EVE/GW2 or any decent size single WOW server, it's a barren wasteland. Same with those other titles you mention as well.
But we are so far off in semantics and perception we can't really continue this conversation, almost speaking two different languages.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Thenno MMO's now a days are sucking. DAoC was my favorite game until they decided to go the expansion push with ToA and Catacombs. WoW was good until WotLK. Now I am looking for something to satisfy me. Then I came across this, Pathfinder Online ( https://goblinworks.com/ ). It's a sandbox MMO in developement and you get to put your input into the making. Read the blog, come to your own conclusions.
Just because you are jaded and think all mmos "suck", doesn't mean it's a fact. MMOs have evolved into someting different then they were 10 years ago+ This might not be what you wanted, but mmos are more popular today then they ever were before. I'm guessing that's because they have gotten a lot better.
I am not jaded. I am just tired of the rinse repeat method for making money. Grind more levels, Do dungeons for gear, multiple times to get what you need to move to raids. Raid multiple times to move to the next one. New expansion, rinse repeat. You can run the story line once, then it no longer applies.
With this new sandbox coming out, I finally some thing to look forward to. Two years before you can max out just one role, and you can mix and match how you want, etc. They are listening to their fan base and making adjustments to on our input.
I didnt post here to take away from what WoW and other theme park MMOs have done, Just offer an option to those looking for some thing different. All they have to do is read the blog and decide if they like it. "Suck" is a relative term. If I say it sucks and you say it doesnt, neither of us are wrong. Millions of subscribers show they dont think WoW sucks, but some times its nice to have a change.
Originally posted by Forgrimm You also have to realize that while games have evolved, us old-school players have aged and evolved as well. I started playing EQ back in '99 when I was 22 years old. I had no major responsibilities at the time besides a full-time job, and the MMO genre was brand new, that's what made it so amazing. Now I'm 35, have a family and a lot more responsibilities, and have no desire to play something as time consuming and tedious as the original EQ was back in its day. The whole generation that started playing the gen-1 MMO's has grown up now. And the new crop of MMO's has learned from the mistakes of past MMO's. Very few people would consider sitting around for 6 hours, camping a static spawn, only to have it not drop the item that they want, to be fun. It was fun back in the day because we didn't know any better, we had nothing else to compare it to, and it was new and shiny at the time.
Check out the Goblin Works and Pathfinder Online. Experience is time based and you don't have to be logged in to get. You gather it and spend it on skills you want. The skills do require some play time, but not the grinding MMOs require no a days.
I suggest it is time to take a break from mmos. You need to broaden your gaming tastes. MMOs today are horrific and will be for awhile. There is always console gaming where you can play Destiny and The Division.
Comments
hell yea , i was playing Text-muds thru Quantum -Link on my Commodore 64 in the early 80s .. great times
THIS !
Its the same with my memories on p&p rpg. It was a ton of fun playing it with my mates when we were teens, but we grown up, times changes and people too.
Step in the arena and break the wall down
They aren't? I think AOC has like 2 running servers, and even Rift, SWToR and LOTRO are lucky to have 10. These are not thriving games, even if they are still running and making money.
Thriving is 50, 100 active servers, so GW2 qualifies, or how about 1 server with 500K subs like EVE, those are titles that are thriving, and yes, compared to them most of the other games are failing even it its a bit of hyperbole to call them barren.
If you are making a major AAA theme park, then your benchmark is WOW, both in total subs and retention over the long haul. Heck, shoot for 1/10 of WOW's success and make it last for a decade, that's goal worth measuring against.
Having sales profiles of the average single player game is nothing to point at when defining success.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm pretty sure you two nailed it on the head. People don't have to stick around on the same MMORPG because they don't know any better anymore. Back in EQ's prime, there was hardly any info on it or other online games. Heck the internet for the general public was still pretty much in infant status so even less people had access to the game period, much less getting info about. Now there is almost a computer in every home and just about all of those have the internet. We also now have several MMO websites and many other gaming websites, TV channels, and youtube to show us whats out as far as games go and what is on the horizon. Of course there are also many MMO games to play anyways other than just what our choices were back in 1999. Today's gamer is a lot more informed than the gamer from 15 years ago. Some "Old Schoolers" want to blame devs or the younger generation of gamers for the reason games are the way they are instead of just looking at simple facts.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
discussion ends there.
So what? What difference does it make how many servers they have? You can only play on one server at a time anyhow so how does this affect anything?
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Lets get few things straight. That 500k is the combined subscribers from both Chinese and Western servers. And subscribers don't necessarily make the world feel less barren.
Especially in the case of Eve Online where you don't have to log in for progress. A friend of mine logs into Eve maybe twice a month and he still makes enough ISK to pay for multiple accounts all the while accumulating skill points. Technically, he is still playing the game, but not really.
I'm pretty sure the feeling of population comes from the number of players relative to their shared gamespace and not from the number of subscribers.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
When I was in my early to mid twenties, I experienced my first real sense of retrospect. Its a profound feeling and it takes a while to wrap your head around the passage of time and how things change.
Perhaps the OP is going through one of those epiphanies. And I hope he does not get hung up on blaming the world.
Thanks for making another post about how you are a bitter vet and you think you are the only one?
I feel your pain OP.
The problem is that the origial MUDs/MMO's catered to 'nerds' and 'gamers' (Pen and Paper gamers) who loved complex systems and deep mechanics.
Computers became 'mainstream' and games were dumbed down to the lowest average to tap into the revenue stream of the "new" P.C. users.. Now that grandma is even online the "dumbing down" continues...
Its a natural evolution and there is no fighting this.
-The "hope" is on the indie front but right now the tech just isnt there.
I personally have went back to Tabletop gaming (Pathfinder is a good new system) and single player games or Online Strategy games. Also picked up GW (the original) to scratch my 'mmo' itch and its surprisingly good for what it is.
It's a bit like old cars or old movies..
Old MMOs weren't as good as you think - and modern ones aren't nearly as bad.
What you have to understand is that you grow up and change. I used to LOVE baseball. I could watch all the TV games. It's way to slow for me now - and I can only really watch it live. I used to LOVE JRPGs. I played the 8 bit Final Fantasy and stuff. Now that I am older it seems amazingly limited at shallow.
Field of Dreams wasn't really that good - nor was Forest Gump. I used to really want a CRX - but when I drove one recently I found I preferred my Audi - automatic transmissions and all.
GW2 is really pretty respectable. It doesn't get me 'addicted' like the old games did -but part of the problem is ME. Wildstar looks pretty promising too. Sure it looks "WoW like' But BC WoW was pretty darn good.
I have to quote this, because when I was 14 years old I used to say things like "I despise bass, what real band needs it"? Games are evolving, find your niche because as the industry evolves in gaming's favour, or against gaming's favour, you have to find your place in it all or else you will be stuck playing and paying absurd amounts of money and time on content and games you wish you never heard of!
Originally posted by Arskaaa
"when players learned tacticks in dungeon/raids, its bread".
Field of Dreams? Out of all the movies from the '80's, what made you think of that one?
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
I left mmo's for console games a while back but these problems OP mentioned have leaked into all venues. Make stuff easy to break so people be discontented and go buy even more in hopes of finding that once-upon-a-time rush. Still, I haven't suffered to badly just yet. I prefer forum chat over in-game chat so I've got peeps on the console forums. I've had a lot more fun playing Skyrim than I ever had playing any mmo. Sims 2 as well (tho the rest of the sims series is crap and TS2 is very hard to manage; you have to research a lot to keep the game from crashing).
What bothers me is the fire cracker the economy has become do to having an enemy plant for a president. Hopefully we can show that old fashion spirit of love and pull thru these times. I'm not slowing my spending down. I refuse to give in to the panic that would lead to another Depression. But I'm not going to buy crap either. We'll see.
It is funny because although the games are really doing little in these categories,they will try and fool gamer's by creating what they call "adventure mode",they also have cheap achievements in games and it is almost impossible to ever get lost in an instance.There are games even using instant travel,hard to get lost or dive into an adventure when all you do is auto warp around.
The term think,might scare some people but it has got sooooo bad with the inception of Wow that all people look for in games now is that first yellow marker over a npc head.Between yellow markers on npc's and on maps and sparklies or arrows in game and the internet WIKI,players need not think at all.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
AMEN
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
This argument always puzzles me. Do you guys think everyone was 22 ten years ago and had tons of free time? I was 46, with a wife, 3 children and a 50+ hour a week job, yet I found plenty of time to carve out some fun in the old school MMORPG's.
No, I didn't do many of those 6 hour raid camps you are describing, but it never really serves to bolster an argument by pointing out the most extreme examples of content unplayable by the more casual gamer when you are over looking the huge amount of content that was available to a player like me.
Trust me, you could find time to play the original EQ even with your current responsibilities, but you would play it differently, just as I had to.
Funny thing is the wheel comes around, now the kids are out of the house, so I have more time than ever to game but still I wouldn't do long raids. Deosn't mean I wouldn't enjoy some more challenging and even time consuming content.
Guess that's why I've been playing a DAOC freeshard set back to 2003 rules, with all the timesinks, crowd control, and RVR that the game is famous for (including the zerg like open world combat)
Trust me, if I could do it, you can do it, and you'll find sleep is really a very optional thing.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
They aren't barren wastelands. They certainly have fewer players than they started with, but it would be impossible for them to not have fewer players than they started with. Everyone who's going to play a game hears about the game before it releases, and plays it when it releases. Warhammer was a barren wasteland. We know this because it shutdown. SWToR isn't shutting down, neither is GW2. Both games are generating money and expansions. Rift has generated enough money for at least one game to get released and to finance bringing ArcheAge to the West. LotRO has a bunch of players, spending money on the game and financing expansions. It shows no indications of shutting down any time soon either. That doesn't mean virtual worlds aren't a good thing. But the argument that not having a 'Virtual World' leads to any sort of financial failure isn't supported by the money games with theme park stages are making. I think the issue is that most players just aren't focused on Virtual Worlds. The game comes first, the graphics second and whether or not the player is in a Virtual World is a bonus, not a requirement. I'm in the Virtual Worlds are good camp, but when I listen to most people talk about what they do and do not like, the world is never the main topic of discussion. It gets a mention, but it's never the topic.
They aren't? I think AOC has like 2 running servers, and even Rift, SWToR and LOTRO are lucky to have 10. These are not thriving games, even if they are still running and making money.
Thriving is 50, 100 active servers, so GW2 qualifies, or how about 1 server with 500K subs like EVE, those are titles that are thriving, and yes, compared to them most of the other games are failing even it its a bit of hyperbole to call them barren.
If you are making a major AAA theme park, then your benchmark is WOW, both in total subs and retention over the long haul. Heck, shoot for 1/10 of WOW's success and make it last for a decade, that's goal worth measuring against.
Having sales profiles of the average single player game is nothing to point at when defining success.
The games I listed aren't barren wastelands. SWToR and LotRO both have as many or more players than GW2 and Eve. AoC isn't doing nearly as well as Funcom would like, but they did make enough money of the game to build another game and they continue to make money off of both games. Log into either game and you'll see players on the servers, more than enough to play the games from level 1 through the end games. That's not a barren wasteland.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
No, I don't think they do if you just look at the number of servers those two titles have currently active, they aren't doing anywhere near as well as GW2 and EVE. (who are more forthright about their player numbers)
I play on a freeshard that has one server with enough players that you see and play with from level 1 to endgame but trust me, compared to EVE/GW2 or any decent size single WOW server, it's a barren wasteland. Same with those other titles you mention as well.
But we are so far off in semantics and perception we can't really continue this conversation, almost speaking two different languages.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I am not jaded. I am just tired of the rinse repeat method for making money. Grind more levels, Do dungeons for gear, multiple times to get what you need to move to raids. Raid multiple times to move to the next one. New expansion, rinse repeat. You can run the story line once, then it no longer applies.
With this new sandbox coming out, I finally some thing to look forward to. Two years before you can max out just one role, and you can mix and match how you want, etc. They are listening to their fan base and making adjustments to on our input.
I didnt post here to take away from what WoW and other theme park MMOs have done, Just offer an option to those looking for some thing different. All they have to do is read the blog and decide if they like it. "Suck" is a relative term. If I say it sucks and you say it doesnt, neither of us are wrong. Millions of subscribers show they dont think WoW sucks, but some times its nice to have a change.
It sucks when a good discussion gets derailed by server populations and revenue models...
Check out the Goblin Works and Pathfinder Online. Experience is time based and you don't have to be logged in to get. You gather it and spend it on skills you want. The skills do require some play time, but not the grinding MMOs require no a days.