I'm 25 years old. I've been playing MMORPG's since 1995.
Meridian 59 released 1996. Ultima Online released 1997. Everquest released 1999. Hate to nitpick, but I don't think you were playing any MMORPG's in 1995, when you were 7 years old, and no MMORPG was out yet. Anyway, to the point, I think most gamers start to feel that way after a while and just need to take a break. Try some other game genres out then come back to MMO's later on.
I played the following game in the 90s years before UO/EQ made the graphical mmorpg more widely known.
But those are the people who we have to listen to here constantly, the people who have hated every game since EQ and demand that the industry make an old-school game that they want, even if there's no money in it and not enough people who demonstrably want such a game.
We don't really have to listen to them. There's nothing that says people must engage in conversations with people who have views that are directly opposed to their own.
It's not possible to challenge other peoples' viewpoints without challenging your own viewpoint. For good or ill, advancing your own cause means getting somewhat involved in the cause of someone else.
But let's be honest. If "those people" weren't here, most of "us" wouldn't be here either. The opposing viewpoints are the blood that flows through this site's heart. Without them the heart wouldn't beat.
So yes, we listen to them even though we don't have to because the alternative would be silence.
Got a little dramatic there. Sorry.
Actually I would be. I'd much rather be in a forum where constructive discussion can take place, not one where it's mostly made up of unreasonable fanatics with blatantly unreasonable expectations. I'd rather talk with people who can debate rationally, argue intellectually and concede points if they lose. That's not the case around here most of the time.
Originally posted by Cephus404 Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by Cephus404But those are the people who we have to listen to here constantly, the people who have hated every game since EQ and demand that the industry make an old-school game that they want, even if there's no money in it and not enough people who demonstrably want such a game.
We don't really have to listen to them. There's nothing that says people must engage in conversations with people who have views that are directly opposed to their own. It's not possible to challenge other peoples' viewpoints without challenging your own viewpoint. For good or ill, advancing your own cause means getting somewhat involved in the cause of someone else. But let's be honest. If "those people" weren't here, most of "us" wouldn't be here either. The opposing viewpoints are the blood that flows through this site's heart. Without them the heart wouldn't beat. So yes, we listen to them even though we don't have to because the alternative would be silence. Got a little dramatic there. Sorry.Actually I would be. I'd much rather be in a forum where constructive discussion can take place, not one where it's mostly made up of unreasonable fanatics with blatantly unreasonable expectations. I'd rather talk with people who can debate rationally, argue intellectually and concede points if they lose. That's not the case around here most of the time.
Now who's the one who wants something that's never going to happen, eh? This is an internet forum after all. :-)
I've mentioned this before, but I think it would be a really neat thing if MMORPG.com hosted official debates, with rules and such so that all that stuff you said could actually happen. It would be even cooler if there were occasional 'celebrity' hosts or judges. I think that's the only way all that stuff you listed would actually happen.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by Cephus404But those are the people who we have to listen to here constantly, the people who have hated every game since EQ and demand that the industry make an old-school game that they want, even if there's no money in it and not enough people who demonstrably want such a game.
We don't really have to listen to them. There's nothing that says people must engage in conversations with people who have views that are directly opposed to their own. It's not possible to challenge other peoples' viewpoints without challenging your own viewpoint. For good or ill, advancing your own cause means getting somewhat involved in the cause of someone else. But let's be honest. If "those people" weren't here, most of "us" wouldn't be here either. The opposing viewpoints are the blood that flows through this site's heart. Without them the heart wouldn't beat. So yes, we listen to them even though we don't have to because the alternative would be silence. Got a little dramatic there. Sorry.
Actually I would be. I'd much rather be in a forum where constructive discussion can take place, not one where it's mostly made up of unreasonable fanatics with blatantly unreasonable expectations. I'd rather talk with people who can debate rationally, argue intellectually and concede points if they lose. That's not the case around here most of the time.
Now who's the one who wants something that's never going to happen, eh? This is an internet forum after all. :-)
I've mentioned this before, but I think it would be a really neat thing if MMORPG.com hosted official debates, with rules and such so that all that stuff you said could actually happen. It would be even cooler if there were occasional 'celebrity' hosts or judges. I think that's the only way all that stuff you listed would actually happen.
Live, moderated debates on some of the hotter issues here, with maybe 2 or 3 people on each side of the argument, would probably make for some pretty cool video.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Loktofeit Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by Cephus404Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by Cephus404But those are the people who we have to listen to here constantly, the people who have hated every game since EQ and demand that the industry make an old-school game that they want, even if there's no money in it and not enough people who demonstrably want such a game.
We don't really have to listen to them. There's nothing that says people must engage in conversations with people who have views that are directly opposed to their own. It's not possible to challenge other peoples' viewpoints without challenging your own viewpoint. For good or ill, advancing your own cause means getting somewhat involved in the cause of someone else. But let's be honest. If "those people" weren't here, most of "us" wouldn't be here either. The opposing viewpoints are the blood that flows through this site's heart. Without them the heart wouldn't beat. So yes, we listen to them even though we don't have to because the alternative would be silence. Got a little dramatic there. Sorry.Actually I would be. I'd much rather be in a forum where constructive discussion can take place, not one where it's mostly made up of unreasonable fanatics with blatantly unreasonable expectations. I'd rather talk with people who can debate rationally, argue intellectually and concede points if they lose. That's not the case around here most of the time. Now who's the one who wants something that's never going to happen, eh? This is an internet forum after all. :-) I've mentioned this before, but I think it would be a really neat thing if MMORPG.com hosted official debates, with rules and such so that all that stuff you said could actually happen. It would be even cooler if there were occasional 'celebrity' hosts or judges. I think that's the only way all that stuff you listed would actually happen. Live, moderated debates on some of the hotter issues here, with maybe 2 or 3 people on each side of the argument, would probably make for some pretty cool video.
Well I, for one, would never show up on camera. I don't look horrific or anything, but I've seen myself on camera and words like "stiff", "wooden", "pasteboard cutout" and "I wish he'd stop thinking about his hands" come to mind. I would be interesting to see some more adventurous people participate though. :-)
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I'm 75, and I've played pretty much every major MMO since Ultima Online.
I do find that I can't play the same game for months on end anymore like I did with UO and WOW.
I still look forward to new games coming out.
I'm especially looking forward to ESO.
But I do play the same games for years.
I have installed on my computer at present, WOW, LotRO, The Secret World, Guild Wars 2, DC Universe, Assassin's Creed, the new Tomb Raider, and Skyrim along with the game I'm presently playing Age of Conan.
All most all of the MMOs I beta tested.
The only one I missed was WOW.
As soon as I start feeling the urge to move on I switch to another game for a while.
But I will be adding The Elder Scrolls Online to the list when it comes out, and I'll get really involved with it for a while just like I did with Rift, WAR, Aion, and other MMOs that I don't play anymore.
The exception was Neverwinter Online, for some reason I just couldn't get into it.
At least in part because it seemed so dated graphicly.
I'm a graphics person myself so how it looks is really big for me.
Mike
If you shoot a mime, do you have to use a silencer?
More people need to start voicing what they feel instead of just taking the crap they put out. Everyone gets all excited over a new game then 2 months later they are bored with it. Its like this with every game release. In fact not one game since Wow has done anything like it. That should tell you something. As long as players don't get fed up Dev's will never even try to make something new. And by fed up i mean not buying these cloned games.
I'm hopeful about the future. MMO development takes 5+ years, so adjusting to trends takes time. Even the still unreleased TESO's development traces back to 2007, when it still seemed like a really bright idea to try to cut a piece of WoW's pie.
MMO projects started more recently would have seen WAR, AoC, Rift, SWTOR and many other theme parks fall flat on their faces and even the fabled WoW lost a hefty chunk of its playerbase, while multiplayer sandbox games like DayZ and Minecraft have managed to attract millions of players without even a hint of a marketing budget, just because of their raw potential for adventure. Star Citizen breaks crowdfunding records left and right and that's also being noticed.
I don't know if a great new sandbox MMO will come out of all this, but there will be certainly be many attempts with good financial backing, and that's much more than the last 9 years have offered.
"The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands, To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming! On we sweep with threshing oar, our only goal will be the western shore."
I'm hopeful about the future. MMO development takes 5+ years, so adjusting to trends takes time. Even the still unreleased TESO's development traces back to 2007, when it still seemed like a really bright idea to try to cut a piece of WoW's pie.
MMO projects started more recently would have seen WAR, AoC, Rift, SWTOR and many other theme parks fall flat on their faces and even the fabled WoW lost a hefty chunk of its playerbase, while multiplayer sandbox games like DayZ and Minecraft have managed to attract millions of players without even a hint of a marketing budget, just because of their raw potential for adventure. Star Citizen breaks crowdfunding records left and right and that's also being noticed.
I don't know if a great new sandbox MMO will come out of all this, but there will be certainly be many attempts with good financial backing, and that's much more than the last 9 years have offered.
That's where much of my own hope lies, it is clear the industry realises that MMOs do not have any traction now. The question is what will they do about it. My concern is they will cancel AAA and aim for the market they have created, small easymode MMOs. My hope is they will follow a more diverse portfolio, investing in MMOS which move away from the current model. We have seen some signs like the modding potential of NW and Landmark. But it is baby steps as yet, not sure it will actually lead anywhere.
Originally posted by Hariken More people need to start voicing what they feel instead of just taking the crap they put out. Everyone gets all excited over a new game then 2 months later they are bored with it. Its like this with every game release. In fact not one game since Wow has done anything like it. That should tell you something. As long as players don't get fed up Dev's will never even try to make something new. And by fed up i mean not buying these cloned games.
Your right, but its a catch 22.
On one hand each release is only a 30 day game. Marketing gives great clips that tricks players into tinking the game is great.
On the other hand with games being only 30 day games this leaves people starving for the next.
Originally posted by Hariken More people need to start voicing what they feel instead of just taking the crap they put out. Everyone gets all excited over a new game then 2 months later they are bored with it. Its like this with every game release. In fact not one game since Wow has done anything like it. That should tell you something. As long as players don't get fed up Dev's will never even try to make something new. And by fed up i mean not buying these cloned games.
Your right, but its a catch 22.
On one hand each release is only a 30 day game. Marketing gives great clips that tricks players into tinking the game is great.
On the other hand with games being only 30 day games this leaves people starving for the next.
Soooo :
Everyone will play everything !
Or, like me, will play nothing at all. Some people actually have some self control and don't fall for the hype and marketing tricks. Some people don't mindlessly stumble from game to game, hating them all and their communities. Some people actually have standards. Not many, I understand, but I certainly do. That's why I haven't touched an MMO... ANY MMO, for years.
Originally posted by Cephus404But those are the people who we have to listen to here constantly, the people who have hated every game since EQ and demand that the industry make an old-school game that they want, even if there's no money in it and not enough people who demonstrably want such a game.
We don't really have to listen to them. There's nothing that says people must engage in conversations with people who have views that are directly opposed to their own. It's not possible to challenge other peoples' viewpoints without challenging your own viewpoint. For good or ill, advancing your own cause means getting somewhat involved in the cause of someone else. But let's be honest. If "those people" weren't here, most of "us" wouldn't be here either. The opposing viewpoints are the blood that flows through this site's heart. Without them the heart wouldn't beat. So yes, we listen to them even though we don't have to because the alternative would be silence. Got a little dramatic there. Sorry.
Actually I would be. I'd much rather be in a forum where constructive discussion can take place, not one where it's mostly made up of unreasonable fanatics with blatantly unreasonable expectations. I'd rather talk with people who can debate rationally, argue intellectually and concede points if they lose. That's not the case around here most of the time.
Now who's the one who wants something that's never going to happen, eh? This is an internet forum after all. :-)
I've mentioned this before, but I think it would be a really neat thing if MMORPG.com hosted official debates, with rules and such so that all that stuff you said could actually happen. It would be even cooler if there were occasional 'celebrity' hosts or judges. I think that's the only way all that stuff you listed would actually happen.
Just because I want something doesn't mean I expect it to actually happen. The same goes for MMOs. I want to play with intelligent, mature players, I just know that's not going to happen, therefore I don't play MMOs anymore. I just don't spend my days on the forums whining about how awful it is that the MMO community sucks and somehow, they owe it to me to change.
I agree with most of the posts here, having started on AC and EQ.
My question for you guys is, what would you be willing to do in order to get the game you want? Would you fund a kickstarter campaign? Would you be willing to pay a sub?
I work in the industry and much of what is said here is accurate. The cost of making MMOs is staggering and the "audience" is a difficult one to please. I think however, that there is a game to be made that would fit many of the needs of people voicing their opinions here. Question is how do you do build it without involving "bean counters" that will drive the game towards maximum profit? Don't get me wrong, the game has to make money if it's to be successful, but I feel like most investors/publishers now are pushing for MAXIMUM profit at the cost of a great customer experience. Making a decent living isn't good enough, everyone is looking for the giant cash cow.
Anyway, it would be interesting to see what lengths people would go to in order to crowd source a real, core MMO experience.
I agree with most of the posts here, having started on AC and EQ.
My question for you guys is, what would you be willing to do in order to get the game you want? Would you fund a kickstarter campaign? Would you be willing to pay a sub?
I work in the industry and much of what is said here is accurate. The cost of making MMOs is staggering and the "audience" is a difficult one to please. I think however, that there is a game to be made that would fit many of the needs of people voicing their opinions here. Question is how do you do build it without involving "bean counters" that will drive the game towards maximum profit? Don't get me wrong, the game has to make money if it's to be successful, but I feel like most investors/publishers now are pushing for MAXIMUM profit at the cost of a great customer experience. Making a decent living isn't good enough, everyone is looking for the giant cash cow.
Anyway, it would be interesting to see what lengths people would go to in order to crowd source a real, core MMO experience.
I agree, it would indeed be interesting to see how many people are actually interested in oldschool gameplay and are willing to help finance such a game.
SC shows that a well run Kickstarter campaign for a viable product can reach AAAish budget sizes, so there is hope.
I agree with most of the posts here, having started on AC and EQ.
My question for you guys is, what would you be willing to do in order to get the game you want? Would you fund a kickstarter campaign? Would you be willing to pay a sub?
I work in the industry and much of what is said here is accurate. The cost of making MMOs is staggering and the "audience" is a difficult one to please. I think however, that there is a game to be made that would fit many of the needs of people voicing their opinions here. Question is how do you do build it without involving "bean counters" that will drive the game towards maximum profit? Don't get me wrong, the game has to make money if it's to be successful, but I feel like most investors/publishers now are pushing for MAXIMUM profit at the cost of a great customer experience. Making a decent living isn't good enough, everyone is looking for the giant cash cow.
Anyway, it would be interesting to see what lengths people would go to in order to crowd source a real, core MMO experience.
I'd pay for a sub if the game was good enough but I doubt I'd put much money into a Kickstarter for an unknown indie producer. It does create a bit of a problem that bean counters not only want to turn a profit, as you have stated, but want to find a giant cash cow! Honestly if industry people think that making a decent living isn't good enough, than I don't know what to say. It's not our responsibility to make sure you make money hand over fist.
I agree with most of the posts here, having started on AC and EQ.
My question for you guys is, what would you be willing to do in order to get the game you want? Would you fund a kickstarter campaign? Would you be willing to pay a sub?
I work in the industry and much of what is said here is accurate. The cost of making MMOs is staggering and the "audience" is a difficult one to please. I think however, that there is a game to be made that would fit many of the needs of people voicing their opinions here. Question is how do you do build it without involving "bean counters" that will drive the game towards maximum profit? Don't get me wrong, the game has to make money if it's to be successful, but I feel like most investors/publishers now are pushing for MAXIMUM profit at the cost of a great customer experience. Making a decent living isn't good enough, everyone is looking for the giant cash cow.
Anyway, it would be interesting to see what lengths people would go to in order to crowd source a real, core MMO experience.
I'd pay for a sub if the game was good enough but I doubt I'd put much money into a Kickstarter for an unknown indie producer. It does create a bit of a problem that bean counters not only want to turn a profit, as you have stated, but want to find a giant cash cow! Honestly if industry people think that making a decent living isn't good enough, than I don't know what to say. It's not our responsibility to make sure you make money hand over fist.
So, to be clear, I don't think the industry in general thinks a decent living isn't good enough, I think a "few" are pushing too far with their greed as can be seen as (bad) examples in many of the F2P games that exist. People wouldn't have so much issue with F2P if a) it truly isn't P2W and b) you get a solid experience that really doesn't cost money. It's the nickel and diming and paying for things that have traditionally been "givens". Such things include paying to turn off the display of a helmet (SWTOR), etc.
I agree with most of the posts here, having started on AC and EQ.
My question for you guys is, what would you be willing to do in order to get the game you want? Would you fund a kickstarter campaign? Would you be willing to pay a sub?
I work in the industry and much of what is said here is accurate. The cost of making MMOs is staggering and the "audience" is a difficult one to please. I think however, that there is a game to be made that would fit many of the needs of people voicing their opinions here. Question is how do you do build it without involving "bean counters" that will drive the game towards maximum profit? Don't get me wrong, the game has to make money if it's to be successful, but I feel like most investors/publishers now are pushing for MAXIMUM profit at the cost of a great customer experience. Making a decent living isn't good enough, everyone is looking for the giant cash cow.
Anyway, it would be interesting to see what lengths people would go to in order to crowd source a real, core MMO experience.
I will never kickstart anything. I don't believe in paying for unfinished products (or those that haven't even been started).
I do however believe in paying for a product so if it was an MMO of the type I was truly looking for I would gladly buy the box and pay a sub.
I find it interesting that a lot of people now take the mentality of "If you want it, go fund it." even though that was never a part of culture until a couple of years ago. Yet now everyone acts like people should be going out and kickstarting/funding everything they might ever be interested in instead of a company creating a product and then selling it like normal.
I agree with most of the posts here, having started on AC and EQ.
My question for you guys is, what would you be willing to do in order to get the game you want? Would you fund a kickstarter campaign? Would you be willing to pay a sub?
I work in the industry and much of what is said here is accurate. The cost of making MMOs is staggering and the "audience" is a difficult one to please. I think however, that there is a game to be made that would fit many of the needs of people voicing their opinions here. Question is how do you do build it without involving "bean counters" that will drive the game towards maximum profit? Don't get me wrong, the game has to make money if it's to be successful, but I feel like most investors/publishers now are pushing for MAXIMUM profit at the cost of a great customer experience. Making a decent living isn't good enough, everyone is looking for the giant cash cow.
Anyway, it would be interesting to see what lengths people would go to in order to crowd source a real, core MMO experience.
I will never kickstart anything. I don't believe in paying for unfinished products (or those that haven't even been started).
I do however believe in paying for a product so if it was an MMO of the type I was truly looking for I would gladly buy the box and pay a sub.
I find it interesting that a lot of people now take the mentality of "If you want it, go fund it." even though that was never a part of culture until a couple of years ago. Yet now everyone acts like people should be going out and kickstarting/funding everything they might ever be interested in instead of a company creating a product and then selling it like normal.
People say "we have to fund it" because they know the big companies will not make certain types of games (non-max-profit-games aka non-shallow-mass-market-stuff) and the current high budgets inhibit smaller studios with more freedom in the decision process from making them anywhere near AAA quality.
Alternative ways of funding is one way around this problem, thus the "we have to fund it" calls.
You know, I recognized the flaws in older MMO's as I played them and I never considered them to be perfect gaming experiences. But I had fun and the experience felt fresh and interesting. You were captivated and you got invested in the game, despite many of the flaws. I always fantasized about the amazing things the future would hold for this amazing new genre. I definitely thought this was the future of gaming
Since then, 17 years have passed. And here we are today...
Instead it feels like the MMO genre is regressing. Each new MMO coming out is so bad. They're just so bad! The MMO genre is the most disappointing development in gaming history. So much potential, so little of it realized.
We were doing well up until 2004 or so. I even welcomed and celebrated WoW because it did so many things well at the time of its release. But after this point very few interesting things have happened in the MMO genre
You know, I recognized the flaws in older MMO's as I played them and I never considered them to be perfect gaming experiences. But I had fun and the experience felt fresh and interesting. You were captivated and you got invested in the game, despite many of the flaws. I always fantasized about the amazing things the future would hold for this amazing new genre. I definitely thought this was the future of gaming
Since then, 17 years have passed. And here we are today...
Instead it feels like the MMO genre is regressing. Each new MMO coming out is so bad. They're just so bad! The MMO genre is the most disappointing development in gaming history. So much potential, so little of it realized.
We were doing well up until 2004 or so. I even welcomed and celebrated WoW because it did so many things well at the time of its release. But after this point very few interesting things have happened in the MMO genre
We need an old school developer, similar to Chris Roberts and what he has done with funding Star Citizen, to step up to the plate and build a modern version of a UO/EQ/AC hybrid.
I've put a little over $500, as ship purchases, into the ideas that Chris and company are selling with Star Citizen... and I'm only a partial fan of his previous work - but I believed him when I watched his original video funding efforts. If we could get a few of the old school devs of the original UO/EQ/AC MMO's to build us a new world... I'd be willing to help fund it way past what I've donated to Star Citizen.
I often imagined what it would be like to play a deep and challenging MMO that gave the best of the old school and the best of the modern game play. Surely there are enough out there like me who fell the same way.
The business model needs to change for small and medium developers, not indie devs, guys like Funcom. The problem is that right now the industry is being run by publishers and not developers for one. Second of all as I've mentioned to friends of mine many of these new devs have never played an rpg before. They've never played a pen and paper rpg before, many of them lack rpg design skills, they have no idea what the meaning of a virtual world is and they are also not investing in the right things for such virtual world. Things like AI progression, things like immense weather systems and world evolution. Sure we are seeing Storybricks helping with EQN for this but we need more than that. Ryzom had many of these things over ten years ago, where is the mmo deveoper who is looking at Ryzom's world AI, their animal migration patterns and predator movements, why is nobody trying to bring these things back and capitalize on them to bring new and more varied gameplay experiences?
See the main problem is that we are so used to getting arcadey kill quests that nobody is concentrating on the stop and smell the roses parts of building a virtual world. They don't realize that its all in the details and not every little thing has to be part of the march to endgame because if you treat an rpg like its nothing more than a long arcade game then people will do nothing but try to beat the game and mmos should not ever be able to be beaten.
But back to my original point, I think that the smaller and medium devs need to employ the same approach that Yoshi P employed over at SE with FFXIVARR which is more transparency when it comes to the game development. I also think they need to start utilizing Kickstarter when it comes to things like world expansions and additions to the world in general. You already have a product on the market, your mmo is out already, start involving your audience in the development and allow them to take part in the steering of where the game will go, or at least tell people where you are trying to go every step of the way. The same as Roberts is doing with SC. While there is nothing wrong with ambitious plans build them piece by piece and show this on Kickstarter as you are trying to drum up extra funding for people to see what they are getting from the getgo. You handle two things at once with this type of approach 1. You are telling your players exactly what you are doing and getting them involved, you have to charge for the expansion anyway so why not charge directly through Kickstarter granting that expansion access as soon as its launched without having to go through the middleman? 2. You are getting more people who -haven't- bought your game interested because of your transparency.
Have more open discussions with your audience and while I am not saying build your game by committee you are allowing people an inside view as well as allowing them to see exactly what they are paying for upfront. You are also letting them chime in on the things that matter most to them which can be made a priority of your development.
Closed door mmorpg deveopment should be a thing of the past as well as pure retail only sales. Involve your fans, talk to them, and allow them to be able to contribute to you directly and don't do this just in the beginning, do this after your game is out because that is when its most important to hear what they are saying and what they want. Why aren't devs doing this?
After launch is when that feedback and transparency matters most of all.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
One of the other problems with MMORPGs now is that they're all just too... "kid safe", so to speak. I don't mean G-Rated... I mean they all incorporate very well-thought-out systems to prevent griefing that also have the effect of putting a straight jacket on players and removing any real freedom.
For instance, I loved DAoC, but if it were produced today it'd be vastly different. You can bet your ass that RvR would be somehow level-restricted. You just can't let little Johnny Participation Trophy ever encounter a moment in which he *cannot* win. That sounds great theoretically, but it really sucks the life out of things.
The best times I ever had in DAoC was (playing the underpopulated Hibernian faction) regularly changing our unofficial alliances with Albion or Midgard, depending on which one was the flavor of the month. Nowadays, such population imbalances would be remedied by zoning people into instances where they can never actually be outnumbered. It's clever, it's elegant, and it's boring as hell.
The most fun I ever had in WoW was near it's launch, running "raids" on the enemy's outposts, or arriving at my own side's outposts to see they'd been raided, the quest givers killed. It was a pain in the ass, but it was also fun. That was quickly replaced with nice little instanced battles. Neat, bite-sized, and bland.
My best times in Anarchy Online were spending hours sorting out how I was going to get ridiculously overpowered implants installed. If successful, my character was massively overpowered for his level, but so what? It made dueling and PvP immensely fun and unpredictable. No one would put a system that complex and potentially powerful into character creation now. There are no "characters" in MMORPGs anymore-- only "units"; and you are always more or less identical to every other player. And that's boring.
You know, I recognized the flaws in older MMO's as I played them and I never considered them to be perfect gaming experiences. But I had fun and the experience felt fresh and interesting. You were captivated and you got invested in the game, despite many of the flaws. I always fantasized about the amazing things the future would hold for this amazing new genre. I definitely thought this was the future of gaming
Since then, 17 years have passed. And here we are today...
Instead it feels like the MMO genre is regressing. Each new MMO coming out is so bad. They're just so bad! The MMO genre is the most disappointing development in gaming history. So much potential, so little of it realized.
We were doing well up until 2004 or so. I even welcomed and celebrated WoW because it did so many things well at the time of its release. But after this point very few interesting things have happened in the MMO genre
You know, I recognized the flaws in older MMO's as I played them and I never considered them to be perfect gaming experiences. But I had fun and the experience felt fresh and interesting. You were captivated and you got invested in the game, despite many of the flaws. I always fantasized about the amazing things the future would hold for this amazing new genre. I definitely thought this was the future of gaming
Since then, 17 years have passed. And here we are today...
Instead it feels like the MMO genre is regressing. Each new MMO coming out is so bad. They're just so bad! The MMO genre is the most disappointing development in gaming history. So much potential, so little of it realized.
We were doing well up until 2004 or so. I even welcomed and celebrated WoW because it did so many things well at the time of its release. But after this point very few interesting things have happened in the MMO genre
Comments
I played the following game in the 90s years before UO/EQ made the graphical mmorpg more widely known.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_Nights_(MMORPG)
I think it was 3$ an hour to play and was really fun. 20 kobalds attack you. Fireball!
-WL
Werewolf Online(R) - Lead Developer
Actually I would be. I'd much rather be in a forum where constructive discussion can take place, not one where it's mostly made up of unreasonable fanatics with blatantly unreasonable expectations. I'd rather talk with people who can debate rationally, argue intellectually and concede points if they lose. That's not the case around here most of the time.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Actually I would be. I'd much rather be in a forum where constructive discussion can take place, not one where it's mostly made up of unreasonable fanatics with blatantly unreasonable expectations. I'd rather talk with people who can debate rationally, argue intellectually and concede points if they lose. That's not the case around here most of the time.
Now who's the one who wants something that's never going to happen, eh? This is an internet forum after all. :-)
I've mentioned this before, but I think it would be a really neat thing if MMORPG.com hosted official debates, with rules and such so that all that stuff you said could actually happen. It would be even cooler if there were occasional 'celebrity' hosts or judges. I think that's the only way all that stuff you listed would actually happen.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Live, moderated debates on some of the hotter issues here, with maybe 2 or 3 people on each side of the argument, would probably make for some pretty cool video.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Actually I would be. I'd much rather be in a forum where constructive discussion can take place, not one where it's mostly made up of unreasonable fanatics with blatantly unreasonable expectations. I'd rather talk with people who can debate rationally, argue intellectually and concede points if they lose. That's not the case around here most of the time.
Now who's the one who wants something that's never going to happen, eh? This is an internet forum after all. :-) I've mentioned this before, but I think it would be a really neat thing if MMORPG.com hosted official debates, with rules and such so that all that stuff you said could actually happen. It would be even cooler if there were occasional 'celebrity' hosts or judges. I think that's the only way all that stuff you listed would actually happen.
Live, moderated debates on some of the hotter issues here, with maybe 2 or 3 people on each side of the argument, would probably make for some pretty cool video.
Well I, for one, would never show up on camera. I don't look horrific or anything, but I've seen myself on camera and words like "stiff", "wooden", "pasteboard cutout" and "I wish he'd stop thinking about his hands" come to mind. I would be interesting to see some more adventurous people participate though. :-)
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Hi
I'm 75, and I've played pretty much every major MMO since Ultima Online.
I do find that I can't play the same game for months on end anymore like I did with UO and WOW.
I still look forward to new games coming out.
I'm especially looking forward to ESO.
But I do play the same games for years.
I have installed on my computer at present, WOW, LotRO, The Secret World, Guild Wars 2, DC Universe, Assassin's Creed, the new Tomb Raider, and Skyrim along with the game I'm presently playing Age of Conan.
All most all of the MMOs I beta tested.
The only one I missed was WOW.
As soon as I start feeling the urge to move on I switch to another game for a while.
But I will be adding The Elder Scrolls Online to the list when it comes out, and I'll get really involved with it for a while just like I did with Rift, WAR, Aion, and other MMOs that I don't play anymore.
The exception was Neverwinter Online, for some reason I just couldn't get into it.
At least in part because it seemed so dated graphicly.
I'm a graphics person myself so how it looks is really big for me.
Mike
If you shoot a mime, do you have to use a silencer?
I'm hopeful about the future. MMO development takes 5+ years, so adjusting to trends takes time. Even the still unreleased TESO's development traces back to 2007, when it still seemed like a really bright idea to try to cut a piece of WoW's pie.
MMO projects started more recently would have seen WAR, AoC, Rift, SWTOR and many other theme parks fall flat on their faces and even the fabled WoW lost a hefty chunk of its playerbase, while multiplayer sandbox games like DayZ and Minecraft have managed to attract millions of players without even a hint of a marketing budget, just because of their raw potential for adventure. Star Citizen breaks crowdfunding records left and right and that's also being noticed.
I don't know if a great new sandbox MMO will come out of all this, but there will be certainly be many attempts with good financial backing, and that's much more than the last 9 years have offered.
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
On we sweep with threshing oar, our only goal will be the western shore."
That's where much of my own hope lies, it is clear the industry realises that MMOs do not have any traction now. The question is what will they do about it. My concern is they will cancel AAA and aim for the market they have created, small easymode MMOs. My hope is they will follow a more diverse portfolio, investing in MMOS which move away from the current model. We have seen some signs like the modding potential of NW and Landmark. But it is baby steps as yet, not sure it will actually lead anywhere.
Your right, but its a catch 22.
On one hand each release is only a 30 day game. Marketing gives great clips that tricks players into tinking the game is great.
On the other hand with games being only 30 day games this leaves people starving for the next.
Soooo :
Everyone will play everything !
Or, like me, will play nothing at all. Some people actually have some self control and don't fall for the hype and marketing tricks. Some people don't mindlessly stumble from game to game, hating them all and their communities. Some people actually have standards. Not many, I understand, but I certainly do. That's why I haven't touched an MMO... ANY MMO, for years.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Just because I want something doesn't mean I expect it to actually happen. The same goes for MMOs. I want to play with intelligent, mature players, I just know that's not going to happen, therefore I don't play MMOs anymore. I just don't spend my days on the forums whining about how awful it is that the MMO community sucks and somehow, they owe it to me to change.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I agree with most of the posts here, having started on AC and EQ.
My question for you guys is, what would you be willing to do in order to get the game you want? Would you fund a kickstarter campaign? Would you be willing to pay a sub?
I work in the industry and much of what is said here is accurate. The cost of making MMOs is staggering and the "audience" is a difficult one to please. I think however, that there is a game to be made that would fit many of the needs of people voicing their opinions here. Question is how do you do build it without involving "bean counters" that will drive the game towards maximum profit? Don't get me wrong, the game has to make money if it's to be successful, but I feel like most investors/publishers now are pushing for MAXIMUM profit at the cost of a great customer experience. Making a decent living isn't good enough, everyone is looking for the giant cash cow.
Anyway, it would be interesting to see what lengths people would go to in order to crowd source a real, core MMO experience.
I agree, it would indeed be interesting to see how many people are actually interested in oldschool gameplay and are willing to help finance such a game.
SC shows that a well run Kickstarter campaign for a viable product can reach AAAish budget sizes, so there is hope.
I'd pay for a sub if the game was good enough but I doubt I'd put much money into a Kickstarter for an unknown indie producer. It does create a bit of a problem that bean counters not only want to turn a profit, as you have stated, but want to find a giant cash cow! Honestly if industry people think that making a decent living isn't good enough, than I don't know what to say. It's not our responsibility to make sure you make money hand over fist.
So, to be clear, I don't think the industry in general thinks a decent living isn't good enough, I think a "few" are pushing too far with their greed as can be seen as (bad) examples in many of the F2P games that exist. People wouldn't have so much issue with F2P if a) it truly isn't P2W and b) you get a solid experience that really doesn't cost money. It's the nickel and diming and paying for things that have traditionally been "givens". Such things include paying to turn off the display of a helmet (SWTOR), etc.
I will never kickstart anything. I don't believe in paying for unfinished products (or those that haven't even been started).
I do however believe in paying for a product so if it was an MMO of the type I was truly looking for I would gladly buy the box and pay a sub.
I find it interesting that a lot of people now take the mentality of "If you want it, go fund it." even though that was never a part of culture until a couple of years ago. Yet now everyone acts like people should be going out and kickstarting/funding everything they might ever be interested in instead of a company creating a product and then selling it like normal.
People say "we have to fund it" because they know the big companies will not make certain types of games (non-max-profit-games aka non-shallow-mass-market-stuff) and the current high budgets inhibit smaller studios with more freedom in the decision process from making them anywhere near AAA quality.
Alternative ways of funding is one way around this problem, thus the "we have to fund it" calls.
You know, I recognized the flaws in older MMO's as I played them and I never considered them to be perfect gaming experiences. But I had fun and the experience felt fresh and interesting. You were captivated and you got invested in the game, despite many of the flaws. I always fantasized about the amazing things the future would hold for this amazing new genre. I definitely thought this was the future of gaming
Since then, 17 years have passed. And here we are today...
Instead it feels like the MMO genre is regressing. Each new MMO coming out is so bad. They're just so bad! The MMO genre is the most disappointing development in gaming history. So much potential, so little of it realized.
We were doing well up until 2004 or so. I even welcomed and celebrated WoW because it did so many things well at the time of its release. But after this point very few interesting things have happened in the MMO genre
Very well put, very well.
We need an old school developer, similar to Chris Roberts and what he has done with funding Star Citizen, to step up to the plate and build a modern version of a UO/EQ/AC hybrid.
I've put a little over $500, as ship purchases, into the ideas that Chris and company are selling with Star Citizen... and I'm only a partial fan of his previous work - but I believed him when I watched his original video funding efforts. If we could get a few of the old school devs of the original UO/EQ/AC MMO's to build us a new world... I'd be willing to help fund it way past what I've donated to Star Citizen.
I often imagined what it would be like to play a deep and challenging MMO that gave the best of the old school and the best of the modern game play. Surely there are enough out there like me who fell the same way.
"Youre in our world now!"
The business model needs to change for small and medium developers, not indie devs, guys like Funcom. The problem is that right now the industry is being run by publishers and not developers for one. Second of all as I've mentioned to friends of mine many of these new devs have never played an rpg before. They've never played a pen and paper rpg before, many of them lack rpg design skills, they have no idea what the meaning of a virtual world is and they are also not investing in the right things for such virtual world. Things like AI progression, things like immense weather systems and world evolution. Sure we are seeing Storybricks helping with EQN for this but we need more than that. Ryzom had many of these things over ten years ago, where is the mmo deveoper who is looking at Ryzom's world AI, their animal migration patterns and predator movements, why is nobody trying to bring these things back and capitalize on them to bring new and more varied gameplay experiences?
See the main problem is that we are so used to getting arcadey kill quests that nobody is concentrating on the stop and smell the roses parts of building a virtual world. They don't realize that its all in the details and not every little thing has to be part of the march to endgame because if you treat an rpg like its nothing more than a long arcade game then people will do nothing but try to beat the game and mmos should not ever be able to be beaten.
But back to my original point, I think that the smaller and medium devs need to employ the same approach that Yoshi P employed over at SE with FFXIVARR which is more transparency when it comes to the game development. I also think they need to start utilizing Kickstarter when it comes to things like world expansions and additions to the world in general. You already have a product on the market, your mmo is out already, start involving your audience in the development and allow them to take part in the steering of where the game will go, or at least tell people where you are trying to go every step of the way. The same as Roberts is doing with SC. While there is nothing wrong with ambitious plans build them piece by piece and show this on Kickstarter as you are trying to drum up extra funding for people to see what they are getting from the getgo. You handle two things at once with this type of approach 1. You are telling your players exactly what you are doing and getting them involved, you have to charge for the expansion anyway so why not charge directly through Kickstarter granting that expansion access as soon as its launched without having to go through the middleman? 2. You are getting more people who -haven't- bought your game interested because of your transparency.
Have more open discussions with your audience and while I am not saying build your game by committee you are allowing people an inside view as well as allowing them to see exactly what they are paying for upfront. You are also letting them chime in on the things that matter most to them which can be made a priority of your development.
Closed door mmorpg deveopment should be a thing of the past as well as pure retail only sales. Involve your fans, talk to them, and allow them to be able to contribute to you directly and don't do this just in the beginning, do this after your game is out because that is when its most important to hear what they are saying and what they want. Why aren't devs doing this?
After launch is when that feedback and transparency matters most of all.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
One of the other problems with MMORPGs now is that they're all just too... "kid safe", so to speak. I don't mean G-Rated... I mean they all incorporate very well-thought-out systems to prevent griefing that also have the effect of putting a straight jacket on players and removing any real freedom.
For instance, I loved DAoC, but if it were produced today it'd be vastly different. You can bet your ass that RvR would be somehow level-restricted. You just can't let little Johnny Participation Trophy ever encounter a moment in which he *cannot* win. That sounds great theoretically, but it really sucks the life out of things.
The best times I ever had in DAoC was (playing the underpopulated Hibernian faction) regularly changing our unofficial alliances with Albion or Midgard, depending on which one was the flavor of the month. Nowadays, such population imbalances would be remedied by zoning people into instances where they can never actually be outnumbered. It's clever, it's elegant, and it's boring as hell.
The most fun I ever had in WoW was near it's launch, running "raids" on the enemy's outposts, or arriving at my own side's outposts to see they'd been raided, the quest givers killed. It was a pain in the ass, but it was also fun. That was quickly replaced with nice little instanced battles. Neat, bite-sized, and bland.
My best times in Anarchy Online were spending hours sorting out how I was going to get ridiculously overpowered implants installed. If successful, my character was massively overpowered for his level, but so what? It made dueling and PvP immensely fun and unpredictable. No one would put a system that complex and potentially powerful into character creation now. There are no "characters" in MMORPGs anymore-- only "units"; and you are always more or less identical to every other player. And that's boring.
This, period.
Well said.