[Column] General: Dungeon Finders - Good or Bad?

SBFord

Dungeon finders: the tool we love to hate. There hasn’t been a more divisive mechanic introduced into the mainstream since questing itself. If the game doesn’t have one, but still has dungeons, there will be threads wondering where it is and when it’s coming. In either case, you can expect players decrying the evils of the auto-group boogey-man and others begging for it like a cool rain. With dungeon finders quickly becoming a staple, it’s time we take it to the podium.

Read more Player vs Player: Dungeon Finders - Good or Bad?

BadSpock

Overall I believe they are a good thing.

This is primarily due to my own play style changing.

I no longer have the time to dedicate to a guild to tackle progression content, I play when I can for as long as I am able to, so the "on-demand" content LFD and LFR provide is invaluable for me.

 

MikePaladin

Bad if game is worth your time it have a beautiful world graphic why to add LFG idk ruins immersions of the game

kabitoshin

I say it's a mix of both, it greatly reduced the time I spent LFG in cities, and increased the rudeness of people. People used to care about how they acted, now with LFG you don't have to care, cause you might never see that person again. I liked it when it first came out cause I could do my dailies, or gather materials for consumables. Now I really don't like it cause I waste almost the same amount of time LFG when someone drops group cause of a wipe. Either way group finding is equally boring, LFG systems let me play my handhelds atleast.

Speely

I generally find anything that accelerates or circumnavigates the experiences present in a game to be bad design. It suggests either an admittance of world mediocrity or a system-directed encouragement to focus on specific playstyles, both of which are counterproductive to creating a sense of a virtual world (which is why I play MMORPGs.)

Others favor these shortcuts because they play games for different reasons. Unfortunately, games are now designed with these shortcuts in mind during the design phase and content is thus created in a fashion that focuses on areas that the system directs the players to while the rest of the world is just filler that exists to enable the game to be classified as a "virtual world," when in fact it is not.

Players begin to think of exploration as tedious because the designers, in catering to the instant gratification of gamers who don't care about virtual worlds, largely ignore those parts of the world that are not saturated with static, scripted content and so players point to those boring expanses of land and say "see? Dungeon finders are great! Running around the world is so boring."

It's a cycle created by catering to a different crowd than the one that adopted the genre as its own before it was huge. For many, this is just fine, and I hope they have fun with their games, but I really do wish there were some games that sought to make interacting with the actual gameworld engaging as well.

 

Derros

I dont believe that it's dungeon finders by themselves, but DFs plus the token system, you know you have to do 10, 20, 30 more dungeon runs to get your gear, so you want them over fast, the dungeons become a means to an end.  The drops dont really matter that much and are DE fodder, or vendor trash.  

 

Then again I remember back in the Burning crusade says, doing Shadow Labyrinth run (shudder) I had more than a few  tanks drop group after the first boss, because the shield didnt drop.

 

Do I want to go back to the old, only drop system?  With how rng treats me sometimes?  30 UBRS runs for the stupid druid chest piece, and 40 SLab runs for the idol, i'd be lucky to see a drop ever again.

Rockniss

Works great for those of us with an ever changing schedule. I think some people don't do anything but play video games and so they have greater flexibility to form groups the good old fashioned way

CrazKanuk

There is a huge delta between Dungeon Finder and Raid Finder IMO. First, Dungeon groups ARE less social. This could be partly due to the speed that they can be run, but I've had numerous groups that stay together for multiple runs. I think that sticking together for multiple runs is one of the main reasons that you used to see more social behavior. Additionally, you used to be forced to find a group of players on your own server, so these would ultimately be players you'd have to see again at some point, so I feel like there was a level of accountability there. It's like the Internet, you wouldn't call someone you work with a dirty, dirty name, but once you get into the forums, you sure as hell will. 

 

Raid Finder, on the other hand, still requires some level of socialization, since there is still some level of co-ordination required to accomplish the task at hand. The nice thing is that for those who are starting to get grey hair, whose reflexes have rusted over, we can now access the end-content. The biggest problem with before is that you're buying into a story, it's developed, but you never really get to experience the climax because it's simply inaccessible to you, due to time limitations or otherwise. In PvE, we spend so much time on progression with the end goal being that we "complete" the story that was presented to us, but sometimes the barrier to that is to high for some, so shorter wait times and diluted content, as distasteful as it might seem to some, is what many want to see.

 

So, contrary to some of the feelings expressed, I don't think it takes anything away from elite end gamers. I think that there are few who simply survive in LFG that can make a jump to 10 or 25 man regular raids. 

Zaltark

I think an acceptable alternative is to require people to actually visit the dungeon atleast once physically before being able to find it in the GroupFinder Queue. This sorta forces people to go to them/explore but for me thats what RPG is about, adventure and exploration. When you dumb it down and make it quick and dirty, its less about the exploration and more about the itemization. Who cares about story or art. Just there for a shield (Ive had several tanks quit in some instances because they didnt get the item they wanted).

Camoeb

I have to say bad, although if you look at it on paper the idea seems excellent. But in every game that it has been implemented in I feel that it takes away a major aspect of the community. If all a player has to do is click a button and que up for a dungeon there's really no social interaction. Most players abuse this system acting  rude & obnoxious during groups. In a game where there isn't a dungeon finder the community is much stronger, you know who acts like an asshat and you shouldn't invite to group. Players also seem to actually care about one another, if your helpful and kind you tend to get invited to many more groups then.

immodium

Originally posted by PerfArt

I generally find anything that accelerates or circumnavigates the experiences present in a game to be bad design. It suggests either an admittance of world mediocrity or a system-directed encouragement to focus on specific playstyles, both of which are counterproductive to creating a sense of a virtual world (which is why I play MMORPGs.)

Others favor these shortcuts because they play games for different reasons. Unfortunately, games are now designed with these shortcuts in mind during the design phase and content is thus created in a fashion that focuses on areas that the system directs the players to while the rest of the world is just filler that exists to enable the game to be classified as a "virtual world," when in fact it is not.

Players begin to think of exploration as tedious because the designers, in catering to the instant gratification of gamers who don't care about virtual worlds, largely ignore those parts of the world that are not saturated with static, scripted content and so players point to those boring expanses of land and say "see? Dungeon finders are great! Running around the world is so boring."

It's a cycle created by catering to a different crowd than the one that adopted the genre as its own before it was huge. For many, this is just fine, and I hope they have fun with their games, but I really do wish there were some games that sought to make interacting with the actual gameworld engaging as well.

 

It is a different crowd however I'm guessing it's the majority. Businesses tend to listen to what the fanbase wants and caters to the majority.

I recently logged into LOTRO after HD expansion to give it a whirl. My god that world is deserted, it was such a lonely experience. Got to level 32 (Lonelands/Esteldin) and got really depressed. I was thinking, "where the hell is everyone?".

I'm guessing they all queue up doing instances/skirmishes for marks or whatever. It's a shame as the world is begging to be explored. It just feels so depressing when you see next to no-one on your adventure.

Ozmodan

Originally posted by BadSpock

Overall I believe they are a good thing.

This is primarily due to my own play style changing.

I no longer have the time to dedicate to a guild to tackle progression content, I play when I can for as long as I am able to, so the "on-demand" content LFD and LFR provide is invaluable for me.

 

This.

As to the above complaint that Lotro is deserted, find a popular server first, there are tons of people playing on the servers I play on.

dreamscaper

Dungeon Finders, by themselves, are fine. I don't really have any issues with them, though I prefer the Aion and City of Heroes style over something like WoW.

 

What needs to be taken out back, shot, and tossed in the incinerator are cross-server grouping tools. These are the bane of every MMORPG I've encountered them in.

GrumpyMel2

I think this question really goes to the core design focus of the game itself. For some (many) MMO's today, the game is really focused upon "progression", the content itself is pretty much irrelevent, save as a barrier to be overcome in achieving that progression.... thus repeatedly "running" the same dungeons is perfectly acceptable as are tools, like Dungeon Finders, to help the players get to that content. In these sorts of games the "world" itself is pretty much inconsequential save as an afterthought or stage...and you could probably excise it entirely and just make it a lobby game without losing too much about what those games are really all about...."progression". I really hate those sort of games, but for the people who are interested in them then the Dungeon Finder is really usefull.

For me, I don't want to play the type of games that a "Dungeon Finder" would be usefull for....because I'm not interested in a game that has anything to do with "running dungeons" for some sort of "progression" is what the game is about. I don't want to play a game that takes you and a small group out of the game world and into a private instance. I want to play a game that is primarly focused on RP and socialization, where you are always in the game world with everybody else....and you can encounter others to help or hinder you along the way. I want to play a game where the content is dynamic.....and it's ok to LOSE against the content sometimes because it's not all about progression. I want to play a game where interdependance and cooperation is important....and where the content is NOT scaled or balanced to provide a challenge for X sized group of X level but is however difficult it is and you bring and organize whatever resources you can muster against it.  I want to play a game where Towns and Inn's act as social hubs for players in goods and services because the players themselves are more interested in socializing and RPing then they are in "progressing"......where downtime and time spent organizing and interacting with others and putting together resources are NOT considered hinderances to gameplay but actualy ARE core game-play...more so then any sort of "ding" from leveling. In that sort of game, a Dungeon Finder or even a global LFG channel would be defeating the core purpose of actualy playing the game.

 

udon

Good or Bad?  I guess that depends on what your looking for in the game.

The dungeon finder does make games more accessible to those who don't care to or can't focus the time needed to build the social connections or gear requirements needed for more traditional LFG methods.  Let's face it 90% of the people who custom build groups are snobs.  They want people in equal if not better gear than the dungeon itself drops and they want people who know every fight by heart and can speed run though it.  At it's core most of these people want to remove all risk from the run and just get the rewards.  Guild and friends groups are completely different of course and are much more about the social experience and the challenge in many cases.

On the other end however dungeon finders especially (but not exclusively) cross server ones really remove all consequences to being a ass from joining a group.  I have seen amounts of disrespect for the other groups mates from some people that boggles the mind.  I mean how can you queue into a dungeon than go AFK every 5 minutes for 10 minutes at a time the whole run?  I understand things happen but if you commit to running a dungeon be it a random group of strangers or a group of friends at least have the decency to put a little focus and attention to the group.  When you know you will likely never group up with these people again for a lot of people they just don't see the need to be concerned with things like that basic consideration for your group mates.  

 

 

GrumpyMel2

In follow up to my above post, I want to mention one of the few fond memories I have from playing a modern themepark PvE MMO. It was back in the early days of LOTRO when the game was actualy decent.

I was exploring the Lone Lands when I ran into an Orc camp and an Elf (player character) who was hunting them. We actualy RP-ed.  Yes,  believe it or not....2 complete strangers met exploring the open world and RPing with no pre-arrangement. We didn't talk about what quests we "had to complete" or what items we expected to gain or what experience we had to gain til level. We talked, in character, about how the Orcs were evil and how they needed to be destroyed less they encroach upon more civilized lands......and we teamed up to fight the orcs....and that was actualy usefull because Orcs weren't face-roll easy in the early days of LOTRO.....and we didn't do any quests, just spent a few hours fighting the orcs and exploring thier camps and rp-ing before parting ways....all from a spontaneous encounter in the open world. THAT I actualy remember....I can't remember a single dungeon I've run.....because running dungeons isn't FUN,  quests aren't FUN, "doing" content isn't FUN, progression isn't FUN.....experiencing the game world with other players and interacting with them, now that's fun.

 

Gdemami

Not that there is any other option - it's definitely positive feature.

Why making a column about such no brainer?

Antiquated

"Dungeon Finders" (with teleporters) I see as somewhat negative.

"Grouping Tools" (sans insta-portal) I see as somewhat positive, greatly so when they're done well.

Teshrrar

 

I don't like DF, because it destroy the immersion. Like the friend above said, a "group finder" should be the tool, without teleport, so the players would have to move yourselves to the entrance and, for example, populate the forgotten areas, open the possibility for PvP, or even discover things.

 

A lot of the human relations are being destroyed by all that automatic features.

Teshrrar

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

In follow up to my above post, I want to mention one of the few fond memories I have from playing a modern themepark PvE MMO. It was back in the early days of LOTRO when the game was actualy decent.

I was exploring the Lone Lands when I ran into an Orc camp and an Elf (player character) who was hunting them. We actualy RP-ed.  Yes,  believe it or not....2 complete strangers met exploring the open world and RPing with no pre-arrangement. We didn't talk about what quests we "had to complete" or what items we expected to gain or what experience we had to gain til level. We talked, in character, about how the Orcs were evil and how they needed to be destroyed less they encroach upon more civilized lands......and we teamed up to fight the orcs....and that was actualy usefull because Orcs weren't face-roll easy in the early days of LOTRO.....and we didn't do any quests, just spent a few hours fighting the orcs and exploring thier camps and rp-ing before parting ways....all from a spontaneous encounter in the open world. THAT I actualy remember....I can't remember a single dungeon I've run.....because running dungeons isn't FUN,  quests aren't FUN, "doing" content isn't FUN, progression isn't FUN.....experiencing the game world with other players and interacting with them, now that's fun.

 

 

Oh man, I miss that so much. 

 

Gdemami

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Originally posted by Teshrrar
 
A lot of the human relations are being destroyed by all that automatic features.

---

You cannot destroy what is not there.

TheLizardbones

---

Originally posted by BadSpock
Overall I believe they are a good thing.This is primarily due to my own play style changing.I no longer have the time to dedicate to a guild to tackle progression content, I play when I can for as long as I am able to, so the "on-demand" content LFD and LFR provide is invaluable for me. 

---

Not to mention sitting around just trying to put a group together for regular group content outside of a guild. I'm not sure why some people think sitting around for a half hour or longer waiting to get a group is a good thing.

Haites

Anything that reduces the need for social interaction in an MMO is IMO an extremely bad thing.  It also shrinks the world to an infinitely small level.  Travel time makes the world feel massive, and an instance finder warping you here and there ruins any chance of immersion.  It turns the game into a collection of carnival rides that you just stand in line for.

FlawSGI

Originally posted by dreamscaper

Dungeon Finders, by themselves, are fine. I don't really have any issues with them, though I prefer the Aion and City of Heroes style over something like WoW.

 

What needs to be taken out back, shot, and tossed in the incinerator are cross-server grouping tools. These are the bane of every MMORPG I've encountered them in.

^^ This. I don't have a problem with LFG tools themselves because it beats seeing LFG chat spam. What I do detest is cross server LFG tools because it is another level of anonymity that almost encourages poor behavior. If people are not punished for their poor social interactions, what's to stop them from continuing if there is no repercussions? It was about the time that WoW did this that I started getting turned off by the game actually so for me the experience  of cross -server LFG was awful. 

Haites

Originally posted by FlawSGI

Originally posted by dreamscaper

Dungeon Finders, by themselves, are fine. I don't really have any issues with them, though I prefer the Aion and City of Heroes style over something like WoW.

 

What needs to be taken out back, shot, and tossed in the incinerator are cross-server grouping tools. These are the bane of every MMORPG I've encountered them in.

^^ This. I don't have a problem with LFG tools themselves because it beats seeing LFG chat spam. What I do detest is cross server LFG tools because it is another level of anonymity that almost encourages poor behavior. If people are not punished for their poor social interactions, what's to stop them from continuing if there is no repercussions? It was about the time that WoW did this that I started getting turned off by the game actually so for me the experience  of cross -server LFG was awful. 

I'll echo that.  X-server is a community assassin.

wormed

The problem isn't necessarily that the dungeon finder exists, it's more so the instant teleport inside that absolutely has destroyed the whole idea of community in a MMORPG. Whatever happened to having to brave the lands to reach a destination? The exploration in MMORPG's is gone. Instant grouping with people from other servers doesn't foster any sort of comradery, or community. 

As a person who absolutely adores the excitement that open world PvP brings, the dungeon finder has decimated games in that respect. Name me one game that has a dungeon finder and continues to have legitimate OWPvP. There are none, and guaranteed, if there were any, I'd probably be playing it. The issue is not so much the time consumption for people, because this can be worked on. Why can't a dungeon finder simply find a group for you? Matches you with the appropriate people, utilize flight paths to reach your desired dungeon, or even have things that WoW implemented like summoning stones where at least 2 people are required to summon someone to the dungeon.

This would foster a sense of community as other people are actually required to be good players, competent and able to get you to the dungeon, and also promotes healthy OWPvP between factions.

I have no issue with Dungeon Finders, there just needs to be a way smarter way of implementing them instead of collapsing the game's gigantic world into a 2 instance situation (town -> dungeon).