Wildstar is sending out 2 very different messages from the info they have released and other info that has been shown through videos. Let's take a look at the split personality:
1. Difficult, hardcore Wildstar: On one hand they have claimed they are bringing back the difficulty in mmo's. Big, hard, 40 man raids and gear progression, not for the feint of heart. They have really pushed the difficulty factor in almost all talks of their raiding, and while they have hinted at other things to do at max level the vast majority of talk and information has been about raiding - so it definitely seems that is their main focus for endgame. So, a hardcore end game raiding mmo like Everquest, vanilla WOW, etc. Cool!
2. Carefree, fun, casual Wildstar: On the other hand everything that has been shown and talked about of the leveling process looks like it's the oppositet. Huge arrows flashing on the screen pointing you in the direction of where you need to go for your current quests takes hand holding to a new level really, and the argument could be made the telegraph system also dumbs down combat gameplay. It's been said solo to max level would be perfectly achievable also. In general it just seems they are aiming for a light, care free, casual, fun game experience for gamers. Awesome!
So are either of these bad in and of themselves? NO, they sound cool! But the problem is they don't mix in one game in my opinion. The people who are more casual and relaxed are going to have a blast during the leveling process then get to end game and be presented with this hardcore raiding and be like huh? Then the hardcore raiders or those people drawn to the game for the promise of a hard mmo again are likely to find all the hand holding and easy laid back style of the leveling process unappealing. Casuals don't turn hardcore at endgame usually and hardcore players don't usually just play all casual until endgame. Of course there will be a percentage that enjoy both, but in general I think the opposite direction type decisions they have made in gameplay focus really don't add up to well for longevity.
Since when do hardcore raiders pay any more attention to the leveling process than they absolutely have to to get through it as quickly as possible? There is nothing remotely incompatible about your two points.
Originally posted by Utinni All MMOs are defined by endgame content now, so pointing to the leveling experience as any indication of intent is flawed. That being said, paths are probably a huge waste of time/development resources.
Not remotely accurate. Both TOR and TSW shine the most in the leveling process, through their strong emphasis on narrative. MMOs are only defined by "endgame" for those whose sole focus is on the endgame. Which statistics have shown, many times, are nowhere close to being the majority of MMO players. Just the ones most likely to be vocal.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
1. Create a hard game that 10% of the potential player base love and make no money because 90% quit after 3 months
or
2. Create a game that 90% of the potential player base likes and roll in profit. Meanwhile listening to the vocal and annoying 10% of players that have no life.
It's not really a hard decision from a developer point of view.
1. Create a hard game that 10% of the potential player base love and make no money because 90% quit after 3 months
or
2. Create a game that 90% of the potential player base likes and roll in profit. Meanwhile listening to the vocal and annoying 10% of players that have no life.
It's not really a hard decision from a developer point of view.
roll in profit for a month or two, then lay off 80% of the workforce because everyone has done and received everything.
Wildstar is sending out 2 very different messages from the info they have released and other info that has been shown through videos. Let's take a look at the split personality:
1. Difficult, hardcore Wildstar: On one hand they have claimed they are bringing back the difficulty in mmo's. Big, hard, 40 man raids and gear progression, not for the feint of heart. They have really pushed the difficulty factor in almost all talks of their raiding, and while they have hinted at other things to do at max level the vast majority of talk and information has been about raiding - so it definitely seems that is their main focus for endgame. So, a hardcore end game raiding mmo like Everquest, vanilla WOW, etc. Cool!
2. Carefree, fun, casual Wildstar: On the other hand everything that has been shown and talked about of the leveling process looks like it's the oppositet. Huge arrows flashing on the screen pointing you in the direction of where you need to go for your current quests takes hand holding to a new level really, and the argument could be made the telegraph system also dumbs down combat gameplay. It's been said solo to max level would be perfectly achievable also. In general it just seems they are aiming for a light, care free, casual, fun game experience for gamers. Awesome!
So are either of these bad in and of themselves? NO, they sound cool! But the problem is they don't mix in one game in my opinion. The people who are more casual and relaxed are going to have a blast during the leveling process then get to end game and be presented with this hardcore raiding and be like huh? Then the hardcore raiders or those people drawn to the game for the promise of a hard mmo again are likely to find all the hand holding and easy laid back style of the leveling process unappealing. Casuals don't turn hardcore at endgame usually and hardcore players don't usually just play all casual until endgame. Of course there will be a percentage that enjoy both, but in general I think the opposite direction type decisions they have made in gameplay focus really don't add up to well for longevity.
Your examples of "Casual and Carefree" are really just convenience. Just because you've decided that the outdated "talk to every NPC to find quests" is the best way for questing in your opinion....or that telegraphs dumb anything down....(honestly I believed this until I saw the livesreams with just the first instance boss fights, if these are their "entry level" boss fights they're not crazy hard but they're at least way more complex.
It seems an inept comparison since most other games have even MORE simplistic fights. I don't really see these as "casual" features just quality of life. Leveling is a means to an end and if you EVER had a hard time completing a quest then you probably have a hard time making it to work on a daily basis. Arrows heading to the next quest is really just a time-saver and I'm all for that as I don't need/care/want to deal with inconvenience just for the sake of someone thinking it's more 'hardcore'. The challenge should be from mechanics not just from withholding information.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
Wildstar is sending out 2 very different messages from the info they have released and other info that has been shown through videos. Let's take a look at the split personality:
1. Difficult, hardcore Wildstar: On one hand they have claimed they are bringing back the difficulty in mmo's. Big, hard, 40 man raids and gear progression, not for the feint of heart. They have really pushed the difficulty factor in almost all talks of their raiding, and while they have hinted at other things to do at max level the vast majority of talk and information has been about raiding - so it definitely seems that is their main focus for endgame. So, a hardcore end game raiding mmo like Everquest, vanilla WOW, etc. Cool!
2. Carefree, fun, casual Wildstar: On the other hand everything that has been shown and talked about of the leveling process looks like it's the oppositet. Huge arrows flashing on the screen pointing you in the direction of where you need to go for your current quests takes hand holding to a new level really, and the argument could be made the telegraph system also dumbs down combat gameplay. It's been said solo to max level would be perfectly achievable also. In general it just seems they are aiming for a light, care free, casual, fun game experience for gamers. Awesome!
So are either of these bad in and of themselves? NO, they sound cool! But the problem is they don't mix in one game in my opinion. The people who are more casual and relaxed are going to have a blast during the leveling process then get to end game and be presented with this hardcore raiding and be like huh? Then the hardcore raiders or those people drawn to the game for the promise of a hard mmo again are likely to find all the hand holding and easy laid back style of the leveling process unappealing. Casuals don't turn hardcore at endgame usually and hardcore players don't usually just play all casual until endgame. Of course there will be a percentage that enjoy both, but in general I think the opposite direction type decisions they have made in gameplay focus really don't add up to well for longevity.
I'll give you the problem with 1. Difficult, hardcore Wildstar. The problem with these type of raids is that you need to be in pretty good guild with team speak and all. Also you need to know the ins and outs of the raid otherwise you'll be kicked out for someone else. That's where MMO start to crumble and lose A LOT of people. Nobody has the time any more for long hourly raids and on top of that with a slight possibility to even get the gear you're looking for, so that adds more to the rage quit. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you put everyone max level with every piece of gear. What I am saying is bringing back the fun it was to raid back then, you know, with 5-6 people having fun camping a boss room. Raids today have become too much of a chore that nobody have time for any more. FF14 anyone? FF14 is probably the best example of a raid / grinding system that will soon prove to be fatal if they don't correct it by new year or some where along the road in the 1st Q of 2014. Back then PvP was all about team work and skills, not equipment and P2W cash shops. Granted we still got some old timers able to own P2W players but even them are losing hope in the MMORPG industry. At least we got some nice MMORTS on the rise, which will be refreshing.
While I respect your opinion. I'm sorry, I doubt the majority of mmo players want to go back to the old days of camping a boss/spawn area for hours on end. Once the rose colored glasses are taken off you'd realize that. The only people who claim these things are those stuck in their ways and can't cope with what mmos are today. If a new mmo came out playing like EQ1, it would flop faster then any of the "fail" mmos (as constantly posted here on this site) in the last few years.
While I respect your opinion. I'm sorry, I doubt the majority of mmo players want to go back to the old days of camping a boss/spawn area for hours on end. Once the rose colored glasses are taken off you'd realize that. The only people who claim these things are those stuck in their ways and can't cope with what mmos are today. If a new mmo came out playing like EQ1, it would flop faster then any of the "fail" mmos (as constantly posted here on this site) in the last few years.
I agree with this. My friends and I, who I have been playing with for years had a very long chat about today and overall agreement was that while EQ, UO and Eve were fun no one really wanted to do go through that pain again. All and all the sentiment was - when we were kids video games was one way that we proved our worth to each other. It was all about doing super hard and complex stuff in game. Now we are adults we play together just to spend time together because we usually don't get to hang out everyday like we used to.
While we still enjoy competition we simply can't afford to spend 12 hours raiding or waking up at 3am to be ready for respawn timer or spending 4 hours clearing a dungeon only to find final boss has already been camped by another group. Time is my greatest commodity and I want to spend it having fun and not suffering for 6 hours so I can have fun for 1 hour.
I am sure that most of a bit older gamer here (late 20s or early 30s) can relate to that and given that average age of an MMO gamer is 30 I think developers are doing the right thing by catering to the desires of their most common demographic.
While we still enjoy competition we simply can't afford to spend 12 hours raiding or waking up at 3am to be ready for respawn timer or spending 4 hours clearing a dungeon only to find final boss has already been camped by another group. Time is my greatest commodity and I want to spend it having fun and not suffering for 6 hours so I can have fun for 1 hour.
I am sure that most of a bit older gamer here (late 20s or early 30s) can relate to that and given that average age of an MMO gamer is 30 I think developers are doing the right thing by catering to the desires of their most common demographic.
depends how good the game is i guess
in 1999 when i started playing EQ (and doing these things)
I was already age 35 and my friends in mid to late 20s
I'm still willing to do these things at age 50 but i agree that most gamers probably have no interest
While I respect your opinion. I'm sorry, I doubt the majority of mmo players want to go back to the old days of camping a boss/spawn area for hours on end. Once the rose colored glasses are taken off you'd realize that. The only people who claim these things are those stuck in their ways and can't cope with what mmos are today. If a new mmo came out playing like EQ1, it would flop faster then any of the "fail" mmos (as constantly posted here on this site) in the last few years.
I agree with this. My friends and I, who I have been playing with for years had a very long chat about today and overall agreement was that while EQ, UO and Eve were fun no one really wanted to do go through that pain again. All and all the sentiment was - when we were kids video games was one way that we proved our worth to each other. It was all about doing super hard and complex stuff in game. Now we are adults we play together just to spend time together because we usually don't get to hang out everyday like we used to.
While we still enjoy competition we simply can't afford to spend 12 hours raiding or waking up at 3am to be ready for respawn timer or spending 4 hours clearing a dungeon only to find final boss has already been camped by another group. Time is my greatest commodity and I want to spend it having fun and not suffering for 6 hours so I can have fun for 1 hour.
I am sure that most of a bit older gamer here (late 20s or early 30s) can relate to that and given that average age of an MMO gamer is 30 I think developers are doing the right thing by catering to the desires of their most common demographic.
I have to agree, every gamer I've met avoid the "hardcore" days. People are simply too busy and have a life to deal with a 2nd job that is what the "hardcore" was back in Vanilla.
Granted challenging content is a good thing, unlike how people were facerolling through Naxx in Wrath where withing a week of launch pugs were getting all the way to the final boss. However plenty of MMOs provide challenging content if that is what your "hardcore" standard is.
And did Carbine even use the term "hardcore" to describe their raid vision?
While I respect your opinion. I'm sorry, I doubt the majority of mmo players want to go back to the old days of camping a boss/spawn area for hours on end. Once the rose colored glasses are taken off you'd realize that. The only people who claim these things are those stuck in their ways and can't cope with what mmos are today. If a new mmo came out playing like EQ1, it would flop faster then any of the "fail" mmos (as constantly posted here on this site) in the last few years.
I agree with this. My friends and I, who I have been playing with for years had a very long chat about today and overall agreement was that while EQ, UO and Eve were fun no one really wanted to do go through that pain again. All and all the sentiment was - when we were kids video games was one way that we proved our worth to each other. It was all about doing super hard and complex stuff in game. Now we are adults we play together just to spend time together because we usually don't get to hang out everyday like we used to.
While we still enjoy competition we simply can't afford to spend 12 hours raiding or waking up at 3am to be ready for respawn timer or spending 4 hours clearing a dungeon only to find final boss has already been camped by another group. Time is my greatest commodity and I want to spend it having fun and not suffering for 6 hours so I can have fun for 1 hour.
I am sure that most of a bit older gamer here (late 20s or early 30s) can relate to that and given that average age of an MMO gamer is 30 I think developers are doing the right thing by catering to the desires of their most common demographic.
This. Stats show that, for the most part, once a gamer, always a gamer, so the average age continues to rise. Even if the spirit is willing, the flesh has too many other things to do the older we get. It was fine to design games that consume people's lives when most of your target market is at a place in life where they really don't have lives to consume, but the same design just doesn't work when most of your potential audience is extremely lucky if they manage to squeeze in an hour or two on a workday, or four or five on a day off. This is why we will probably never again see a mainstream MMO where a substantial portion of the content attempts to be "challenging." And frankly, that is the right design decision. The proportion of challenging content shouldn't be greater than the proportion of people in your audience who actually have the time to engage in that content. If 5% of people raid, and more than 5% of your content consists of raids, you are doing it wrong.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
Originally posted by SiphaedBoth the Hardcore and the Softcore...um, I mean Casual (almost made a porn reference there) can coexist within the same game. WoW Vanilla proved this. Guild Wars 2 does a great job of having Hardcore content such as higher level Fractals, Legendary Weapons, and other things of that nature.
No, you are wrong. GW2 did not do a good job at pretty much anything as far as MMOs are concerned. There is nothing hardcore in GW2 at all. Spending a long time on a legendary item skin is not hardcore its casual over a long period of time.
However I agree with you that a game can have hardcore and casual play coexist.
I'm sure there's going to be more than enough endgame to keep casuals happy, just like wow.
I beta tested Wow, played from day 1 and the 8 years following that... and it took me about 8 months to level my first toon and about 6 months to hit 60 on my second toon. I work full time and probably took a class or two at night back then but leveling took a LOT longer back then and by the time you were max level, you had a pretty huge emotional investment in your toon, your guild, your achievements.
I think a big reason gamers game hop now is because leveling is too easy.
I'm sure there's going to be more than enough endgame to keep casuals happy, just like wow.
I beta tested Wow, played from day 1 and the 8 years following that... and it took me about 8 months to level my first toon and about 6 months to hit 60 on my second toon. I work full time and probably took a class or two at night back then but leveling took a LOT longer back then and by the time you were max level, you had a pretty huge emotional investment in your toon, your guild, your achievements.
I think a big reason gamers game hop now is because leveling is too easy.
Statistics have shown that the majority of people who try a given MMO, even WoW, never reach max level with even one character. Some gamers game hop because leveling is quick, but not as many as game hop before they even bother to finish leveling. Before addressing the "problem" of leveling being too easy, it would probably make sense for developers to focus on making their content interesting enough that people actually bother to finish leveling when it is easy.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
Comments
Since when do hardcore raiders pay any more attention to the leveling process than they absolutely have to to get through it as quickly as possible? There is nothing remotely incompatible about your two points.
Not remotely accurate. Both TOR and TSW shine the most in the leveling process, through their strong emphasis on narrative. MMOs are only defined by "endgame" for those whose sole focus is on the endgame. Which statistics have shown, many times, are nowhere close to being the majority of MMO players. Just the ones most likely to be vocal.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
FMD are we having this talk again....sigh
Bottom line is this:
1. Create a hard game that 10% of the potential player base love and make no money because 90% quit after 3 months
or
2. Create a game that 90% of the potential player base likes and roll in profit. Meanwhile listening to the vocal and annoying 10% of players that have no life.
It's not really a hard decision from a developer point of view.
roll in profit for a month or two, then lay off 80% of the workforce because everyone has done and received everything.
Your examples of "Casual and Carefree" are really just convenience. Just because you've decided that the outdated "talk to every NPC to find quests" is the best way for questing in your opinion....or that telegraphs dumb anything down....(honestly I believed this until I saw the livesreams with just the first instance boss fights, if these are their "entry level" boss fights they're not crazy hard but they're at least way more complex.
It seems an inept comparison since most other games have even MORE simplistic fights. I don't really see these as "casual" features just quality of life. Leveling is a means to an end and if you EVER had a hard time completing a quest then you probably have a hard time making it to work on a daily basis. Arrows heading to the next quest is really just a time-saver and I'm all for that as I don't need/care/want to deal with inconvenience just for the sake of someone thinking it's more 'hardcore'. The challenge should be from mechanics not just from withholding information.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
While I respect your opinion. I'm sorry, I doubt the majority of mmo players want to go back to the old days of camping a boss/spawn area for hours on end. Once the rose colored glasses are taken off you'd realize that. The only people who claim these things are those stuck in their ways and can't cope with what mmos are today. If a new mmo came out playing like EQ1, it would flop faster then any of the "fail" mmos (as constantly posted here on this site) in the last few years.
I agree with this. My friends and I, who I have been playing with for years had a very long chat about today and overall agreement was that while EQ, UO and Eve were fun no one really wanted to do go through that pain again. All and all the sentiment was - when we were kids video games was one way that we proved our worth to each other. It was all about doing super hard and complex stuff in game. Now we are adults we play together just to spend time together because we usually don't get to hang out everyday like we used to.
While we still enjoy competition we simply can't afford to spend 12 hours raiding or waking up at 3am to be ready for respawn timer or spending 4 hours clearing a dungeon only to find final boss has already been camped by another group. Time is my greatest commodity and I want to spend it having fun and not suffering for 6 hours so I can have fun for 1 hour.
I am sure that most of a bit older gamer here (late 20s or early 30s) can relate to that and given that average age of an MMO gamer is 30 I think developers are doing the right thing by catering to the desires of their most common demographic.
i don't know about the history of power scrolls
but they supposedly did not exist until 2002 w Publish 16
http://www.uoguide.com/Power_Scrolls
EQ2 fan sites
depends how good the game is i guess
in 1999 when i started playing EQ (and doing these things)
I was already age 35 and my friends in mid to late 20s
I'm still willing to do these things at age 50 but i agree that most gamers probably have no interest
EQ2 fan sites
I have to agree, every gamer I've met avoid the "hardcore" days. People are simply too busy and have a life to deal with a 2nd job that is what the "hardcore" was back in Vanilla.
Granted challenging content is a good thing, unlike how people were facerolling through Naxx in Wrath where withing a week of launch pugs were getting all the way to the final boss. However plenty of MMOs provide challenging content if that is what your "hardcore" standard is.
And did Carbine even use the term "hardcore" to describe their raid vision?
This. Stats show that, for the most part, once a gamer, always a gamer, so the average age continues to rise. Even if the spirit is willing, the flesh has too many other things to do the older we get. It was fine to design games that consume people's lives when most of your target market is at a place in life where they really don't have lives to consume, but the same design just doesn't work when most of your potential audience is extremely lucky if they manage to squeeze in an hour or two on a workday, or four or five on a day off. This is why we will probably never again see a mainstream MMO where a substantial portion of the content attempts to be "challenging." And frankly, that is the right design decision. The proportion of challenging content shouldn't be greater than the proportion of people in your audience who actually have the time to engage in that content. If 5% of people raid, and more than 5% of your content consists of raids, you are doing it wrong.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
It was in vanilla...
No, you are wrong. GW2 did not do a good job at pretty much anything as far as MMOs are concerned. There is nothing hardcore in GW2 at all. Spending a long time on a legendary item skin is not hardcore its casual over a long period of time.
However I agree with you that a game can have hardcore and casual play coexist.
I'm sure there's going to be more than enough endgame to keep casuals happy, just like wow.
I beta tested Wow, played from day 1 and the 8 years following that... and it took me about 8 months to level my first toon and about 6 months to hit 60 on my second toon. I work full time and probably took a class or two at night back then but leveling took a LOT longer back then and by the time you were max level, you had a pretty huge emotional investment in your toon, your guild, your achievements.
I think a big reason gamers game hop now is because leveling is too easy.
No bitchers.
Statistics have shown that the majority of people who try a given MMO, even WoW, never reach max level with even one character. Some gamers game hop because leveling is quick, but not as many as game hop before they even bother to finish leveling. Before addressing the "problem" of leveling being too easy, it would probably make sense for developers to focus on making their content interesting enough that people actually bother to finish leveling when it is easy.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.