My favorite example of the "kill kill kill!" mentality that has taken over the MMO community came from SWTOR.
You create a Jedi; the galaxies peace keepers. You murder your way across an entire planet's worth of mobs. Most of the time killing no less than 800-1000 random NPC's.
THEN you get to the final fight on the planet. An evil Sith Lord who killed your master and has tortured and killed thousands of innocent people. You fight the Sith Lord into submission and raise your lightsaber to deliver the completely justified killing blow and as your mouse moves over the option to murder the 1001'st person on the planet... it's a dark side option.
Seriously? WTF? I murdered thousands of people just to get the chance to cut this dudes head off... and THAT's worth dark side points?
You're missing the point. There are plenty of non-violent/non-combat games. Lots. However, IF a game has fighting or combat in it, it quickly becomes the sole focus of the game.
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Again, it comes back to the players and what sells. If most are NOT fighting (like simply traveling in the world or recovering from a battle), it is deemed boring. Most look for games that take them from fight to fight to fight in the quickest, most efficient way. Violence appears to be what most players want in their games.
If a game has fighting in it, fighting quickly becomes sole activity in that game. It is not a question of "Combat is bad." It is more of an observation that "All there is to do in games is fight, when fighting is included in the game."
I'm not missing the point, I'm trying to explain that it's a self fulfilling prophecy. That the players are self selecting.
If you're looking to avoid combat as the primary focus of a game, then why seek out games in which one of the primary concerns of the development team is to create a combat system and the art team spends the majority of their time creating weapons and armor and magic effects.
What type of non-combat do people generally think of? Crafting? Craft what? Oh yeah, usually weapons and armor, to sell to people who want to fight. Or to craft houses. For what purpose? So that people have a place to put all the things they collected while fighting.
How about social interaction? What exactly do you want from a game? A place where you can sit back and talk about how your day was at work? Have you ever heard of real life people? They're generally more interested in your well being than random people on the internets. Or maybe you want a place where you can chat about . . . the things you've been fighting. Or the things you can craft, that help with fighting.
Basically, while players will and do participate in non-combat activities, that's generally not what they are interested in doing all the time. It's a break from the fighting, or to enhance their future fighting. Any player that's not interested in fighting will self select and not play that game. Why play MMO #19283 when they can just play something that suits their tastes?
Game developers will make what their paid to make. And if the consumers want combat, then the developers will build it. Again, I too, would like more non-combat options in MMO's, but the idea that games are more violent or gorey than in the past is false (technology is better able to show that gore, but conceptually it's always been there). Look at the Zelda series. A game that many of us played as children. It has nearly zero non-combat related activity. The entire game is fighting from start to finish with a couple puzzles here and there.
Mega-man, each and every level is built around killing everything on it. Just because it's a 2D side scroller doesn't mean that it's not killing.
In reality, now that I rack my brain to think back on the history of gaming, I would say that MMO's - in terms of games that have fighting in them - have a great deal more non-combat options than pretty much every other genre that includes combat.
Even chess is a 6th century Indian war game. Pawns = infantry, knights = cavalry, castles = chariots, bishops = elephants, king = king, queen = king's adviser or minister.
War games simulate danger to ourselves, which means we get a dose of endorphins. It's the same pathway that opium uses!
Well, in games where I am not allowed to kill I get bored. I play Sims 2 still after years (tho not an mmo) and I have to switch to something more murderous after a bit or I fall asleep on the keypad. I think what we're marketing here is the adrenaline rush, plain and simple. To run into the chance of being killed and coming out on top as the survivor - or killer - is an adrenaline high.
That said there does need to be some curb on killing because even game violence can get boring if repetitive - grind. My answer is immersion. It's exciting to feel like you are really there in that cyber world. The rabbits should not fight back they shoudl run away. Orcs should not respawn on top of each other they should come from a protected cave with baby orcs and momma orcs and JUST MORE FRACKN REALISTIC ALREADY. Kill hunger is okay to satisfy in games. It would be nicer if we had to protect the fantasy landscape from poachers. If mob didn't respawn immediately but was raised on a farm or came from dens in the wild and spread out. Giving us more to do than just kill, kill, kill. If we had to run a zoo. Plant apple trees. If other nodes were the main source of income and not hides.
I was told football was created to keep men from compulsively going to war. Battle is in our blood, our genetic inheritance, and gaming is a decent way to relieve this stress. Not taking it out on anyone in real life.
You answered your own question when you said we didn't play Ultima Online or SWG for the killing. You're right cause the killing in those games had high consequences and penalties for players that did kill, these days killing has no consequences in MMO's, just gank somebody and move along, who cares, no penalty and this is the way the sorry players like it.
Personally I think there should be consequences for killing other players, otherwise what roll are you playing....none, you are playing no roll as there are no consequences, whatever, people want to cheat and want everything free these days, it's pathetic really, one of the reason I don't give a damn in general about most gamers, they just don't care, "it's just a game" mentality ruins core gaming.
I have to agree 100% with this no consequence ruined modern MMO's...
I came from table-top games, boardgames and Pen and Paper Rpgs, because I'm old hehe, During the late 80s and 90s computer games had allot more innovation then they do today.
So I have actually gone back to IRL Table-top Wargames, Boardgames and pen and papper RPGs, because lets face it they are allot more interesting and fun, then the Theme-park shit games that keep getting made in the MMO genre..
They used to be called MMORPGs also.. Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games.. But I think they sadly lost everything accept the O, they are not Massive, they are certainly not Multiplayer(its solo this and solo that), Role playing? what is that the little kid's ask? never heard of it and never tried it....And I do not think its lack of interest, that has stopped them, Developers of online games just don't like people thinking for themselves, and that is something you need to do if you are going to Role-play, think about your character, the setting the world e.tc.. And the devs really don't want people to go there for obvious reasons. Devs want the kid's hacking, maiming and killing, heaven forbid if they started to think or use any part of the brain not connected with the instant gratification impulse that will keep them running in the mouse wheel. Online that is the online thing that is left of this genre, its really really sad because it had so much potential..
The above aside, what games focus on is NOT death and gore, its story and lore. Has nothing to do with killing bunny rabbit or a goblin or a skeleton. It's about WHY you're doing those things. That's what games are focused on.
Exactly, of course since we're on MMORPG.com somehow this topic has to be overly sensationalized, it goes from playing Heroes and villains, to playing psychopaths and murderers.
Which just isn't the case, well mostly I'm sure there are those who roleplay their Villain as a murderer.
Context is key to such a topic.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I would like to play a game where healing people increases my level. Just makes sense when playing a healing class. Though of course this could be easily abused, perhaps a level cap per day?
I am personally fed up of committing genocide for every quest I do, will see how mmos turn out, currently curious about Project Sparks and Everquest Next Landmark... they seem to focus on creativity and not killing.
First off. When you're doing a quest. It's hardly genocide since most kill type quests are only asking you to retrieve an item or to kill 10-20 to curb over population or something like that. So you're hardly killing off an entire species. Also as someone else said. In order for you to heal someone, they have to take damage which would mean you're STILL helping someone else (in your own words) "commit genocide" to level up.
This isn't rant, more a concerned comment for a long year gamer about what I feel is the current trend in MMOs and single player games: Focussing all around killing, and showing it in ever greater gorey detail. I just begin to feel awkward about it, so I wanted to share my thoughts about it.
Here is my new VBlog about it.
I haven't watched the video and didn't read any responses, but it is simple.
It is the same reason TV/movies are so focused on death/action/sex. It is the enjoyable vices that we don't get to experience as much (sex) or at all (killing/fighting).
We already work normal jobs, commute, eat, sleep, read. Having a game where we rehash our current existence isn't nearly as interesting as one where we get to experience the sides of life we are blocked from. Why are detective shows so popular? 1) They're easy to serialize and 2) they expose us to the part of life we don't typically see (Crime/violence). Same reason mafia style games/tv are exciting.
There are exploration based games and there are sim games such as SimCity. Those give a level of control and interest that we don't get to do in our normal lives either. It is just that the more sinful something is, the more exciting it is.
Running around in Diablo 1 mindlessly killing and destroying everything in my path? Awesome.
Playing a game where I go to a desk job for 40 hours a week, drive a long commute in traffic, and cook dinner? Boring as hell because entertainment is meant to be an escape which means it must be very different from the life I live.
Another huge game industry? Sports. Most of us could never be Michael Jordan. So playing him in a game is great.
Focussing all around killing, and showing it in ever greater gorey detail.
Human nature?
I think killing in video games is a nice change from real life gladiator battles. It is nice that people are satisfied now with two fat people fighting in reality show, bunch of contestants getting hurt in some race, or killing artificial enemies in video games. I would call that progress. It is better to feed your instinct that way, than supressing it to the point you really want to hurt someone. I don't understand the need to show your gentle side, we all know we love violence. It's better to be honest about it, and to have nice ways to blow some steam off after tough day.
I don't understand the suggestion from some people, that games were less violent before. If anything, it is the other way around, back in the days it was as mindless and pointless as it could get. At least now we have technology and resources to make an interesting story out of it, and justify all that killing.
Originally posted by Rusque I'm not missing the point, I'm trying to explain that it's a self fulfilling prophecy. That the players are self selecting.If you're looking to avoid combat as the primary focus of a game, then why seek out games in which one of the primary concerns of the development team is to create a combat system and the art team spends the majority of their time creating weapons and armor and magic effects.
You're still saying Fight/Don't Fight. You are not seeing the gray area that some are saying, "Fighting is fun and OK, BUT there is just too much focus on it, overall."
What you pointed out later about crafting and just making weapons/armor FOR fighting is another way that MMOs over-concentrate on fighting.
I also agree with where said that most players play in order to fight. And that saddens me, for most MMOs have become simple action combat games with a few "extras" thrown in. There are no more worlds in which my character can live.
Most here agreeing with Elikal are not totally against fighting, but would enjoy other options in MMOs. Is that making sense? Or did I totally misread what you're saying? (It's happened before )
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by kabitoshin Killing is a primal feeling we know is wrong today, but video games give us a way to fulfill that primal urge.
The politically correct are getting more and more pathetic. Shut up and play or dont. I'm so sick of you people. I agree Kab.
For me, there is nothing even close to political correctness involved.It is just differing desires. Try to open your mind before opening your mouth.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Rusque I'm not missing the point, I'm trying to explain that it's a self fulfilling prophecy. That the players are self selecting.
If you're looking to avoid combat as the primary focus of a game, then why seek out games in which one of the primary concerns of the development team is to create a combat system and the art team spends the majority of their time creating weapons and armor and magic effects.
You're still saying Fight/Don't Fight. You are not seeing the gray area that some are saying, "Fighting is fun and OK, BUT there is just too much focus on it, overall."
What you pointed out later about crafting and just making weapons/armor FOR fighting is another way that MMOs over-concentrate on fighting.
I also agree with where said that most players play in order to fight. And that saddens me, for most MMOs have become simple action combat games with a few "extras" thrown in. There are no more worlds in which my character can live.
Most here agreeing with Elikal are not totally against fighting, but would enjoy other options in MMOs. Is that making sense? Or did I totally misread what you're saying? (It's happened before )
There are two things I've seen today on this forum that coincide and it doesn't seem most players see it. Both items revolve around player wants, and development realities.
A lot of players wonder where these "extra" things in MMO's went and why development today focuses on only a core set of features. We see post after post about how old games had x,y,z and x,y,z made that game so much better than everything else. Why'd the focus shift to Z, when we wanted x, where did Y go at all? It's gone... Every other thread (even this one) devolves into this same basic question.
The others likely end up questioning why only the buggy products that don't get all of these features right, make it to market.
The reality is those older games didn't exactly get these features right either, we just put up with it back then. Most of those older games by today's standards would be considered buggy train wrecks. It's only those who can set aside these issues and drawbacks who truly see the product that lies underneath. We even see this with Skyrim (TES). To some it's the best series ever, to others it's the buggiest and most problematic line of games they've ever played.
It's the nature of games with large worlds, deep systems,long feature lists, etc.. When people accept that these games will have many issues (SWG....cough... SWG) We'll see more of it, I doubt even EQN will have much in the way of Non combat outside of crafting and land shaping, simply because they have such a lofty product to offer to begin with.
People expect a level of polish that just isn't easily attainable and/or maintainable in these large feature rich games.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You answered your own question when you said we didn't play Ultima Online or SWG for the killing. You're right cause the killing in those games had high consequences and penalties for players that did kill, these days killing has no consequences in MMO's, just gank somebody and move along, who cares, no penalty and this is the way the sorry players like it.
Personally I think there should be consequences for killing other players, otherwise what roll are you playing....none, you are playing no roll as there are no consequences, whatever, people want to cheat and want everything free these days, it's pathetic really, one of the reason I don't give a damn in general about most gamers, they just don't care, "it's just a game" mentality ruins core gaming.
Amen to that. What we are currently facing with each other is the new generation of gamers. People who don't give a damn about others. In the early years of WoW for example, the first two years where great. I played on a european RP server. RP events where often server based events. Everyone could join in. It where events like having a market where people could sell things (with some add-ons you could even sell player made things), sport games like olympics and someone invented a version on football with the ingame ball you could get. Most RP events where created around doing things together. After about 2,5 year things started to change in WoW and it attracted many new players. A new generation of players. RP events more and more became guild based and drama/war based. People who used to play together didn't do anything together anymore but fighting each other. RP events for the server? Only if it could make a select few people popular and it was all about them. Not a fun market nope, just a event that made certain people heroes.
Now as Braindome said, people don't care for others anymore. And you see this in so many others games. Heck, look at Dark Fall. It had great idea's, but what the game is, is nothing more then a slaughter house. Finally a MMO came out that was promising a difference. Enemies dropping only what they where wearing, able to cut down trees, mine rocks, etc etc. It sounded like a dream to me. People could work together to build villages and keeps. There was a naval part. In my mind i could see it all before me. People working together to make great places to hang around in. Having traders going from player city to player city. Become a smith somewhere and settle in while selling your things to people. Instead all i got to do was flee for my life as it was a huge gank fest. That was the only thing people cared about. You hardly had any gear to defend yourself yet the gankers where waiting at the safety border of the beginners zone. One step outside and you got nuked. They all wearing great stuff and jumped you in parties. and no guilds out there seeing it as their duty to protect the newbies. I mean gankers have always been there in MMO's but this was insane and made me quit on the game. I don't mind losing in battle. But come on, the game offered so much yet you hardly got to see a thing beside the PvP aspect of the game.
Its not only in MMORPG's though that people are selfish. I was a huge Battlefield fan from the first one on. But there as well you saw that a new generation of gamers ruined the whole game. How? Well when i started with BF people worked together. Yeah that's right, strangers working together. Cause you had a goal, defeating the enemy. Had some people who where good with the planes? You made sure they got to fly the planes cause you needed their airsupport. Where you driving around in a jeep and saw team members running. You would pull over, honk a few times so they knew they could get aboard and you would drive together to the objective. Almost everyone did that. Sure now and then you had some egoist who shot teammembers to pilot a plane and rushed away with a jeep before others could join in. But it was rare. In Battlefield Vietnam you had people who jumped into transport helicopters for the soul purpose to fly people around. I was one of them. You jumped in the helicopter, waited till others had joined in, flew them a flag for them to capture or a area where there was fighting to drop them off as reinforcements. The game this way felt more like a war and a lot of fun to capture a flag and seeing a helicopter land near by to pick you up and drop you off at the next capture point. But like i said, the new generation of gamers got to join the game. Now people hardly work together. Are you a good pilot? Well goodluck trying to get a plane to support your team with air superiority, cause the changes are that some jerk jumps in before you (people even wait with respawing till a aircraft spawns so they can spawn into the aircraft). And what does that jerk do? He flies to a flag, ejects and tries to capture the flag alone. Using a fine weapon as merly a means to get to a flag and dispose of the aircraft again. And goodluck when the game starts. People run to the jeeps, jump in and rush off with no passengers. Just to capture points the first themselves. No cooperation. And often the chats are nothing more then foul mouthed language.
This contributes a lot to why so many games are nothing more then kill houses. You can have a massive crafting system in the game, but if there is free to kill PvP then you can count on it becoming a arena for the gankers. Thinking you need to kill everyone in sight. Meaning others who came to the game to become a crafter drop the game cause they don't get a shot at crafting as they are constantly killed if they don't have a guild protecting them. And not every guild has the patience to have some players play guards while others gather resources. And with no consequences there is nothing stopping gankers from keep on going. But god forbid you mention this, then these gankers will shout everyone are carebears (yeah cause you are less of a gamer when you don't want to be killed over and over again by some coward who needs his friends and better gear to kill you).
The sad fact is that games aren't made for gamers anymore. Games are made for mainstream gamers. For what is hot atm among the mainstream gamer. Its risk free and garanteed to have enough people playing it to make a nice profit. There are/have been MMO's without any combat. But most of them died a quick death as that is simply not what people want. Or not enough at least to keep it profitable. Personally i do think there should be combat in a MMO, but i'm a strong fan of having consequences in them, if only so a game can offer so much more then just killing. I will play battlefield and such if i just wanna kill other players. With a MMORPG i would love to see a living world run by players. Its okay to see wars among player factions cause that is part of us humans, we love to fight. But like in RL let there be laws. You wanna kill someone because you can? Sure you can do that, but expect some cities to keep their gates closed for you or getting bounty hunters after you who can kill you without consequences and get a nice reward for it (like in SWG where you could post bounties on other players). That way people still can be gankers but will be dealing with consequences. It would prevent a game from becoming a PvP only focused game i think. But the gamers in the general need to change their vision. PvPers always seem to be on the fence to defend ganking. Saying you shouldn't play a PvP game if you don't want to die. But they don't get the point that just because a game offers PvP doesn't mean you have to kill other people.
And about mobs, well make the killing having some meaning. If there is a lot of focus on crafting make it so that you need the meat and skin from animals to make food and clothing/armor. And make mobs harder to fight so you might need others or play it smart. A group of orcs having a camp? Wouldn't be smart charge in alone with just a broadsword and a wooden shield when they are fully armored brutes with massive axes on their back. Give consequences in general to a game, PvP and PvE wise. Have people depend on each other more. We humans are a violent bunch, but when we have to work together we work together like pro's. Give us a reason to work together and we will work together. Try to implant that in games.
You answered your own question when you said we didn't play Ultima Online or SWG for the killing. You're right cause the killing in those games had high consequences and penalties for players that did kill, these days killing has no consequences in MMO's, just gank somebody and move along, who cares, no penalty and this is the way the sorry players like it.
Personally I think there should be consequences for killing other players, otherwise what roll are you playing....none, you are playing no roll as there are no consequences, whatever, people want to cheat and want everything free these days, it's pathetic really, one of the reason I don't give a damn in general about most gamers, they just don't care, "it's just a game" mentality ruins core gaming.
Total rubbish. Gaming, first and foremost (IMO) is about having fun. That's what "it's just a game" actually means, don't take it seriously. Like board games. Serious gamers tend to play professionally anyway and I can understand them not having the "it's just a game" mentality.
Gaming built around being punished rather than rewarded is always going to be niche.
What most gamers don't care about is virtual worlds.
My too main MMOs at the moment are Age of Conan and The Secret World. I love Age of Conan, because of the lore and the setting, but sometimes I feel thtat the only thing to do is killing. Let's see how the new crafting system evolves, but I really find that "you have only too kill" aspect a bit monotonous. In TSW it's not the same thing, because you have the adventure game part that not always involve killing.
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My too main MMOs at the moment are Age of Conan and The Secret World. I love Age of Conan, because of the lore and the setting, but sometimes I feel thtat the only thing to do is killing. Let's see how the new crafting system evolves, but I really find that "you have only too kill" aspect a bit monotonous. In TSW it's not the same thing, because you have the adventure game part that not always involve killing.
Much as I like TSW you are killing 95% of the time. Maybe you are counting puzzling it out time? But when you are actually doing something that's what takes your time up.
This is not surprising, do posters want to do needlework or garden pruning to complete quests?
You answered your own question when you said we didn't play Ultima Online or SWG for the killing. You're right cause the killing in those games had high consequences and penalties for players that did kill, these days killing has no consequences in MMO's, just gank somebody and move along, who cares, no penalty and this is the way the sorry players like it.
Personally I think there should be consequences for killing other players, otherwise what roll are you playing....none, you are playing no roll as there are no consequences, whatever, people want to cheat and want everything free these days, it's pathetic really, one of the reason I don't give a damn in general about most gamers, they just don't care, "it's just a game" mentality ruins core gaming.
Total rubbish. Gaming, first and foremost (IMO) is about having fun. That's what "it's just a game" actually means, don't take it seriously. Like board games. Serious gamers tend to play professionally anyway and I can understand them not having the "it's just a game" mentality.
Gaming built around being punished rather than rewarded is always going to be niche.
What most gamers don't care about is virtual worlds.
The problem is that the game sector has changed. MMO's are hot right now. its one of the most played genre's out there. I think only Shooters are above it. When a genre is the hot thing to play you will see many mainstream gamers go there. Mainstream gamers in general don't want to have to much in their way to have fun. They need a lot of hand holding, you shouldn't get stuck for more then ten seconds (thats the max though, after 5 its already becoming tedious for most mainstream gamers). This is not some elitair talk of me as older gamer. Publishers have said it themselves they have decreased the difficulty and game hours so mainstream gamers can finish a game. Cause when gamers can finish a game they feel good about themselves and are more likely to buy a new game. Now here is the problem, the mainstream gamers are the biggest group of gamers and everything that isn't mainstream these days is concidered to be niche and deemed not worthy to invest in.
This is total bullocks. What is niche these days? Yeah CoD has millions of players, compared to their numbers a million players in another game is niche. But if we go back 10 years ago. Before the PS3 and Xbox 360. When gaming was concidered a nerd thing a million players meant your games was a massive success. Heck having 50.0000 players was a great number to have even. But today that is concidered to be a epic failure. Saying the money earned on the game doesn't justify the costs it took to make the game. But more often then not its just that they rather have a larger profit then a little less profit. Profit is profit. Money you make after all the costs are covered and often they still earn double or more profit then what it cost to make the game. Publishers just wanna earn more and more and totally screw over the core gamer. Just because the mainstream gamer doesn't want it doesn't mean there are still million of gamers who do want it and you could still make a nice profit on the games. And we don't even need the super fancy graphics the mainstream gamer demands. Gameplay over shiny graphics any day.
Most gamers don't care for virtual worlds you say. Then these people have no business in MMORPG's. Sorry but its a sad thing that MMORPG's are called MMO's today, cause the RPG part becomes less and less in the games. Why? Because mainstream gamers want to play MMO's too and god forbid they can't be highest lvl in two weeks. God forbid raids are hard and need 40 men working together and learning the raids. God forbid a virtual world is a living world instead of field where you run around and only have one purpose. Not every game has to be made for mainstream gamers damnit. And no don't say "go play older games then" cause its the biggest BS gamers say these days to defend the industry. Mainstream gamers have plenty of games to choose from every freaking month where core gamers get only one or two games a year and ammong the MMORPG's its been a long time. Heck why do you think kickstarter projects have a huge success in getting funds? Cause there are studios out there who believe you can offer core games to core gamers and they settle for a little less profit as long as they get to make the games they wanna make and games core gamers wanna play.
and what is fun for one, is not fun for the other. MMORPG's have become very easy over the years. You can reach highest level in most without ever having too group, its mostly just a option. Look at EVE online, its the greatest example how a very hard game that is based on players controlling the game is very profitable and fun for core gamers and you don't have to participate in combat. You can be a miner if you want and just mine astroids or become a trader. EVE is not my kind of game, but i would love to see a fantasy game with that gameplay. Where the world is controlled by the players and enough people have fun with that. Those who don't like that kind of games have plenty of other options to choose from.
My too main MMOs at the moment are Age of Conan and The Secret World. I love Age of Conan, because of the lore and the setting, but sometimes I feel thtat the only thing to do is killing. Let's see how the new crafting system evolves, but I really find that "you have only too kill" aspect a bit monotonous. In TSW it's not the same thing, because you have the adventure game part that not always involve killing.
Much as I like TSW you are killing 95% of the time. Maybe you are counting puzzling it out time? But when you are actually doing something that's what takes your time up.
This is not surprising, do posters want to do needlework or garden pruning to complete quests?
Yeah, I know, you still have to kill as the last goal for almost everything in TSW, but I was counting the investigation, puzzle and reading parts also...
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The problem is that the game sector has changed. MMO's are hot right now. its one of the most played genre's out there. I think only Shooters are above it. When a genre is the hot thing to play you will see many mainstream gamers go there. Mainstream gamers in general don't want to have to much in their way to have fun. They need a lot of hand holding, you shouldn't get stuck for more then ten seconds (thats the max though, after 5 its already becoming tedious for most mainstream gamers). This is not some elitair talk of me as older gamer. Publishers have said it themselves they have decreased the difficulty and game hours so mainstream gamers can finish a game. Cause when gamers can finish a game they feel good about themselves and are more likely to buy a new game. Now here is the problem, the mainstream gamers are the biggest group of gamers and everything that isn't mainstream these days is concidered to be niche and deemed not worthy to invest in.
This is total bullocks. What is niche these days? Yeah CoD has millions of players, compared to their numbers a million players in another game is niche. But if we go back 10 years ago. Before the PS3 and Xbox 360. When gaming was concidered a nerd thing a million players meant your games was a massive success. Heck having 50.0000 players was a great number to have even. But today that is concidered to be a epic failure. Saying the money earned on the game doesn't justify the costs it took to make the game. But more often then not its just that they rather have a larger profit then a little less profit. Profit is profit. Money you make after all the costs are covered and often they still earn double or more profit then what it cost to make the game. Publishers just wanna earn more and more and totally screw over the core gamer. Just because the mainstream gamer doesn't want it doesn't mean there are still million of gamers who do want it and you could still make a nice profit on the games. And we don't even need the super fancy graphics the mainstream gamer demands. Gameplay over shiny graphics any day.
Most gamers don't care for virtual worlds you say. Then these people have no business in MMORPG's. Sorry but its a sad thing that MMORPG's are called MMO's today, cause the RPG part becomes less and less in the games. Why? Because mainstream gamers want to play MMO's too and god forbid they can't be highest lvl in two weeks. God forbid raids are hard and need 40 men working together and learning the raids. God forbid a virtual world is a living world instead of field where you run around and only have one purpose. Not every game has to be made for mainstream gamers damnit. And no don't say "go play older games then" cause its the biggest BS gamers say these days to defend the industry. Mainstream gamers have plenty of games to choose from every freaking month where core gamers get only one or two games a year and ammong the MMORPG's its been a long time. Heck why do you think kickstarter projects have a huge success in getting funds? Cause there are studios out there who believe you can offer core games to core gamers and they settle for a little less profit as long as they get to make the games they wanna make and games core gamers wanna play.
and what is fun for one, is not fun for the other. MMORPG's have become very easy over the years. You can reach highest level in most without ever having too group, its mostly just a option. Look at EVE online, its the greatest example how a very hard game that is based on players controlling the game is very profitable and fun for core gamers and you don't have to participate in combat. You can be a miner if you want and just mine astroids or become a trader. EVE is not my kind of game, but i would love to see a fantasy game with that gameplay. Where the world is controlled by the players and enough people have fun with that. Those who don't like that kind of games have plenty of other options to choose from.
Social gaming is hot right now, and will be for as long as humans and gaming are around.
The term MMO, IMO is not a genre. It's a prefix. The genre would be FPS, RPG or whatever. People flock to MMORPG's because of the social aspect, not because of it being an RPG or a virtual world.
Most SP RPG are hardly hard so why make the online variety in such a way? Also, a fair few SP RPG's are not even virtual worlds, more games.
What's a core gamer? What qualifies a gamer to be a core gamer? I'm hoping it's not being used to represent someone as a "real" gamer. That's bollocks.
I agree, games marketed at the masses will generally be easier. EvE IMO is as hard as a modded Minecraft I play. I find EvE online to be a lot more tedious though.
I love games that are deep but deep games don't have to be hard. People say chess can be a pretty deep experience however the game is very easy to understand. Are chess player core gamers or not?
Social gaming is hot right now, and will be for as long as humans and gaming are around.
The term MMO, IMO is not a genre. It's a prefix. The genre would be FPS, RPG or whatever. People flock to MMORPG's because of the social aspect, not because of it being an RPG or a virtual world.
Most SP RPG are hardly hard so why make the online variety in such a way? Also, a fair few SP RPG's are not even virtual worlds, more games.
Agreed "MMO" is a pretty meaningless term now kind of like "indie music"
People who like RPGs play MMORPGs for the RPG parts and one of the biggest part of what makes an RPG is a virtual world. Not everyone just wants a social chat room. "Gamers" are a pretty diverse group. Companies tryto make these big one size fits all games to make a lot of money and in some cases (like Skyrim/ WoW) they succeed pretty well but just because a lot of people put up with the limitations in games like that doesn't mean they wouldn't be even happier playing a more niche game tailored to their direct desires.
More choice is good for everyone.
I love games that are deep but deep games don't have to be hard. People say chess can be a pretty deep experience however the game is very easy to understand. Are chess player core gamers or not?
Chess is not at all an easy game to play well. It's pretty much the prototype of "Easy to learn, difficult (nearly impossible) to master.
I love games that are deep but deep games don't have to be hard. People say chess can be a pretty deep experience however the game is very easy to understand. Are chess player core gamers or not?
Chess is not at all an easy game to play well. It's pretty much the prototype of "Easy to learn, difficult (nearly impossible) to master.
It's a myth that chess is "nearly impossible to master" or that you "need to have a particularly high IQ to do well at it".
A study was done on chess grand masters to see what they had in common and to test their IQs. The study found that chess grand masters did not have particularly high IQs. The conclusion of the study was that success in chess is directly proportional to the number of games played or the amount of time invested in the game.
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It's only evil if they have a name....apparently
I'm not missing the point, I'm trying to explain that it's a self fulfilling prophecy. That the players are self selecting.
If you're looking to avoid combat as the primary focus of a game, then why seek out games in which one of the primary concerns of the development team is to create a combat system and the art team spends the majority of their time creating weapons and armor and magic effects.
What type of non-combat do people generally think of? Crafting? Craft what? Oh yeah, usually weapons and armor, to sell to people who want to fight. Or to craft houses. For what purpose? So that people have a place to put all the things they collected while fighting.
How about social interaction? What exactly do you want from a game? A place where you can sit back and talk about how your day was at work? Have you ever heard of real life people? They're generally more interested in your well being than random people on the internets. Or maybe you want a place where you can chat about . . . the things you've been fighting. Or the things you can craft, that help with fighting.
Basically, while players will and do participate in non-combat activities, that's generally not what they are interested in doing all the time. It's a break from the fighting, or to enhance their future fighting. Any player that's not interested in fighting will self select and not play that game. Why play MMO #19283 when they can just play something that suits their tastes?
Game developers will make what their paid to make. And if the consumers want combat, then the developers will build it. Again, I too, would like more non-combat options in MMO's, but the idea that games are more violent or gorey than in the past is false (technology is better able to show that gore, but conceptually it's always been there). Look at the Zelda series. A game that many of us played as children. It has nearly zero non-combat related activity. The entire game is fighting from start to finish with a couple puzzles here and there.
Mega-man, each and every level is built around killing everything on it. Just because it's a 2D side scroller doesn't mean that it's not killing.
In reality, now that I rack my brain to think back on the history of gaming, I would say that MMO's - in terms of games that have fighting in them - have a great deal more non-combat options than pretty much every other genre that includes combat.
I totally agree with the OP 100%.
Even chess is a 6th century Indian war game. Pawns = infantry, knights = cavalry, castles = chariots, bishops = elephants, king = king, queen = king's adviser or minister.
War games simulate danger to ourselves, which means we get a dose of endorphins. It's the same pathway that opium uses!
Well, in games where I am not allowed to kill I get bored. I play Sims 2 still after years (tho not an mmo) and I have to switch to something more murderous after a bit or I fall asleep on the keypad. I think what we're marketing here is the adrenaline rush, plain and simple. To run into the chance of being killed and coming out on top as the survivor - or killer - is an adrenaline high.
That said there does need to be some curb on killing because even game violence can get boring if repetitive - grind. My answer is immersion. It's exciting to feel like you are really there in that cyber world. The rabbits should not fight back they shoudl run away. Orcs should not respawn on top of each other they should come from a protected cave with baby orcs and momma orcs and JUST MORE FRACKN REALISTIC ALREADY. Kill hunger is okay to satisfy in games. It would be nicer if we had to protect the fantasy landscape from poachers. If mob didn't respawn immediately but was raised on a farm or came from dens in the wild and spread out. Giving us more to do than just kill, kill, kill. If we had to run a zoo. Plant apple trees. If other nodes were the main source of income and not hides.
I was told football was created to keep men from compulsively going to war. Battle is in our blood, our genetic inheritance, and gaming is a decent way to relieve this stress. Not taking it out on anyone in real life.
I have to agree 100% with this no consequence ruined modern MMO's...
I came from table-top games, boardgames and Pen and Paper Rpgs, because I'm old hehe, During the late 80s and 90s computer games had allot more innovation then they do today.
So I have actually gone back to IRL Table-top Wargames, Boardgames and pen and papper RPGs, because lets face it they are allot more interesting and fun, then the Theme-park shit games that keep getting made in the MMO genre..
They used to be called MMORPGs also.. Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games.. But I think they sadly lost everything accept the O, they are not Massive, they are certainly not Multiplayer(its solo this and solo that), Role playing? what is that the little kid's ask? never heard of it and never tried it....And I do not think its lack of interest, that has stopped them, Developers of online games just don't like people thinking for themselves, and that is something you need to do if you are going to Role-play, think about your character, the setting the world e.tc.. And the devs really don't want people to go there for obvious reasons. Devs want the kid's hacking, maiming and killing, heaven forbid if they started to think or use any part of the brain not connected with the instant gratification impulse that will keep them running in the mouse wheel. Online that is the online thing that is left of this genre, its really really sad because it had so much potential..
Exactly, of course since we're on MMORPG.com somehow this topic has to be overly sensationalized, it goes from playing Heroes and villains, to playing psychopaths and murderers.
Which just isn't the case, well mostly I'm sure there are those who roleplay their Villain as a murderer.
Context is key to such a topic.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
First off. When you're doing a quest. It's hardly genocide since most kill type quests are only asking you to retrieve an item or to kill 10-20 to curb over population or something like that. So you're hardly killing off an entire species. Also as someone else said. In order for you to heal someone, they have to take damage which would mean you're STILL helping someone else (in your own words) "commit genocide" to level up.
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I haven't watched the video and didn't read any responses, but it is simple.
It is the same reason TV/movies are so focused on death/action/sex. It is the enjoyable vices that we don't get to experience as much (sex) or at all (killing/fighting).
We already work normal jobs, commute, eat, sleep, read. Having a game where we rehash our current existence isn't nearly as interesting as one where we get to experience the sides of life we are blocked from. Why are detective shows so popular? 1) They're easy to serialize and 2) they expose us to the part of life we don't typically see (Crime/violence). Same reason mafia style games/tv are exciting.
There are exploration based games and there are sim games such as SimCity. Those give a level of control and interest that we don't get to do in our normal lives either. It is just that the more sinful something is, the more exciting it is.
Running around in Diablo 1 mindlessly killing and destroying everything in my path? Awesome.
Playing a game where I go to a desk job for 40 hours a week, drive a long commute in traffic, and cook dinner? Boring as hell because entertainment is meant to be an escape which means it must be very different from the life I live.
Another huge game industry? Sports. Most of us could never be Michael Jordan. So playing him in a game is great.
Human nature?
I think killing in video games is a nice change from real life gladiator battles. It is nice that people are satisfied now with two fat people fighting in reality show, bunch of contestants getting hurt in some race, or killing artificial enemies in video games. I would call that progress. It is better to feed your instinct that way, than supressing it to the point you really want to hurt someone. I don't understand the need to show your gentle side, we all know we love violence. It's better to be honest about it, and to have nice ways to blow some steam off after tough day.
I don't understand the suggestion from some people, that games were less violent before. If anything, it is the other way around, back in the days it was as mindless and pointless as it could get. At least now we have technology and resources to make an interesting story out of it, and justify all that killing.
What you pointed out later about crafting and just making weapons/armor FOR fighting is another way that MMOs over-concentrate on fighting.
I also agree with where said that most players play in order to fight. And that saddens me, for most MMOs have become simple action combat games with a few "extras" thrown in. There are no more worlds in which my character can live.
Most here agreeing with Elikal are not totally against fighting, but would enjoy other options in MMOs. Is that making sense? Or did I totally misread what you're saying? (It's happened before
)
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Killing is a primal feeling we know is wrong today, but video games give us a way to fulfill that primal urge.
The politically correct are getting more and more pathetic. Shut up and play or dont. I'm so sick of you people.
I agree Kab.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
There are two things I've seen today on this forum that coincide and it doesn't seem most players see it. Both items revolve around player wants, and development realities.
A lot of players wonder where these "extra" things in MMO's went and why development today focuses on only a core set of features. We see post after post about how old games had x,y,z and x,y,z made that game so much better than everything else. Why'd the focus shift to Z, when we wanted x, where did Y go at all? It's gone... Every other thread (even this one) devolves into this same basic question.
The others likely end up questioning why only the buggy products that don't get all of these features right, make it to market.
The reality is those older games didn't exactly get these features right either, we just put up with it back then. Most of those older games by today's standards would be considered buggy train wrecks. It's only those who can set aside these issues and drawbacks who truly see the product that lies underneath. We even see this with Skyrim (TES). To some it's the best series ever, to others it's the buggiest and most problematic line of games they've ever played.
It's the nature of games with large worlds, deep systems,long feature lists, etc.. When people accept that these games will have many issues (SWG....cough... SWG) We'll see more of it, I doubt even EQN will have much in the way of Non combat outside of crafting and land shaping, simply because they have such a lofty product to offer to begin with.
People expect a level of polish that just isn't easily attainable and/or maintainable in these large feature rich games.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god."
Jean Rostand
From Thoughts of a Biologist, (1938).
Not all (online) games focused on kill and death , some like dancing game or Sim or cooking game have they share of pie too.
But for most game which focused on male players , killing are part of it.
Amen to that. What we are currently facing with each other is the new generation of gamers. People who don't give a damn about others. In the early years of WoW for example, the first two years where great. I played on a european RP server. RP events where often server based events. Everyone could join in. It where events like having a market where people could sell things (with some add-ons you could even sell player made things), sport games like olympics and someone invented a version on football with the ingame ball you could get. Most RP events where created around doing things together. After about 2,5 year things started to change in WoW and it attracted many new players. A new generation of players. RP events more and more became guild based and drama/war based. People who used to play together didn't do anything together anymore but fighting each other. RP events for the server? Only if it could make a select few people popular and it was all about them. Not a fun market nope, just a event that made certain people heroes.
Now as Braindome said, people don't care for others anymore. And you see this in so many others games. Heck, look at Dark Fall. It had great idea's, but what the game is, is nothing more then a slaughter house. Finally a MMO came out that was promising a difference. Enemies dropping only what they where wearing, able to cut down trees, mine rocks, etc etc. It sounded like a dream to me. People could work together to build villages and keeps. There was a naval part. In my mind i could see it all before me. People working together to make great places to hang around in. Having traders going from player city to player city. Become a smith somewhere and settle in while selling your things to people. Instead all i got to do was flee for my life as it was a huge gank fest. That was the only thing people cared about. You hardly had any gear to defend yourself yet the gankers where waiting at the safety border of the beginners zone. One step outside and you got nuked. They all wearing great stuff and jumped you in parties. and no guilds out there seeing it as their duty to protect the newbies. I mean gankers have always been there in MMO's but this was insane and made me quit on the game. I don't mind losing in battle. But come on, the game offered so much yet you hardly got to see a thing beside the PvP aspect of the game.
Its not only in MMORPG's though that people are selfish. I was a huge Battlefield fan from the first one on. But there as well you saw that a new generation of gamers ruined the whole game. How? Well when i started with BF people worked together. Yeah that's right, strangers working together. Cause you had a goal, defeating the enemy. Had some people who where good with the planes? You made sure they got to fly the planes cause you needed their airsupport. Where you driving around in a jeep and saw team members running. You would pull over, honk a few times so they knew they could get aboard and you would drive together to the objective. Almost everyone did that. Sure now and then you had some egoist who shot teammembers to pilot a plane and rushed away with a jeep before others could join in. But it was rare. In Battlefield Vietnam you had people who jumped into transport helicopters for the soul purpose to fly people around. I was one of them. You jumped in the helicopter, waited till others had joined in, flew them a flag for them to capture or a area where there was fighting to drop them off as reinforcements. The game this way felt more like a war and a lot of fun to capture a flag and seeing a helicopter land near by to pick you up and drop you off at the next capture point. But like i said, the new generation of gamers got to join the game. Now people hardly work together. Are you a good pilot? Well goodluck trying to get a plane to support your team with air superiority, cause the changes are that some jerk jumps in before you (people even wait with respawing till a aircraft spawns so they can spawn into the aircraft). And what does that jerk do? He flies to a flag, ejects and tries to capture the flag alone. Using a fine weapon as merly a means to get to a flag and dispose of the aircraft again. And goodluck when the game starts. People run to the jeeps, jump in and rush off with no passengers. Just to capture points the first themselves. No cooperation. And often the chats are nothing more then foul mouthed language.
This contributes a lot to why so many games are nothing more then kill houses. You can have a massive crafting system in the game, but if there is free to kill PvP then you can count on it becoming a arena for the gankers. Thinking you need to kill everyone in sight. Meaning others who came to the game to become a crafter drop the game cause they don't get a shot at crafting as they are constantly killed if they don't have a guild protecting them. And not every guild has the patience to have some players play guards while others gather resources. And with no consequences there is nothing stopping gankers from keep on going. But god forbid you mention this, then these gankers will shout everyone are carebears (yeah cause you are less of a gamer when you don't want to be killed over and over again by some coward who needs his friends and better gear to kill you).
The sad fact is that games aren't made for gamers anymore. Games are made for mainstream gamers. For what is hot atm among the mainstream gamer. Its risk free and garanteed to have enough people playing it to make a nice profit. There are/have been MMO's without any combat. But most of them died a quick death as that is simply not what people want. Or not enough at least to keep it profitable. Personally i do think there should be combat in a MMO, but i'm a strong fan of having consequences in them, if only so a game can offer so much more then just killing. I will play battlefield and such if i just wanna kill other players. With a MMORPG i would love to see a living world run by players. Its okay to see wars among player factions cause that is part of us humans, we love to fight. But like in RL let there be laws. You wanna kill someone because you can? Sure you can do that, but expect some cities to keep their gates closed for you or getting bounty hunters after you who can kill you without consequences and get a nice reward for it (like in SWG where you could post bounties on other players). That way people still can be gankers but will be dealing with consequences. It would prevent a game from becoming a PvP only focused game i think. But the gamers in the general need to change their vision. PvPers always seem to be on the fence to defend ganking. Saying you shouldn't play a PvP game if you don't want to die. But they don't get the point that just because a game offers PvP doesn't mean you have to kill other people.
And about mobs, well make the killing having some meaning. If there is a lot of focus on crafting make it so that you need the meat and skin from animals to make food and clothing/armor. And make mobs harder to fight so you might need others or play it smart. A group of orcs having a camp? Wouldn't be smart charge in alone with just a broadsword and a wooden shield when they are fully armored brutes with massive axes on their back. Give consequences in general to a game, PvP and PvE wise. Have people depend on each other more. We humans are a violent bunch, but when we have to work together we work together like pro's. Give us a reason to work together and we will work together. Try to implant that in games.
Sorry for the long post.
Total rubbish. Gaming, first and foremost (IMO) is about having fun. That's what "it's just a game" actually means, don't take it seriously. Like board games. Serious gamers tend to play professionally anyway and I can understand them not having the "it's just a game" mentality.
Gaming built around being punished rather than rewarded is always going to be niche.
What most gamers don't care about is virtual worlds.
My too main MMOs at the moment are Age of Conan and The Secret World. I love Age of Conan, because of the lore and the setting, but sometimes I feel thtat the only thing to do is killing. Let's see how the new crafting system evolves, but I really find that "you have only too kill" aspect a bit monotonous. In TSW it's not the same thing, because you have the adventure game part that not always involve killing.
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Much as I like TSW you are killing 95% of the time. Maybe you are counting puzzling it out time? But when you are actually doing something that's what takes your time up.
This is not surprising, do posters want to do needlework or garden pruning to complete quests?
The problem is that the game sector has changed. MMO's are hot right now. its one of the most played genre's out there. I think only Shooters are above it. When a genre is the hot thing to play you will see many mainstream gamers go there. Mainstream gamers in general don't want to have to much in their way to have fun. They need a lot of hand holding, you shouldn't get stuck for more then ten seconds (thats the max though, after 5 its already becoming tedious for most mainstream gamers). This is not some elitair talk of me as older gamer. Publishers have said it themselves they have decreased the difficulty and game hours so mainstream gamers can finish a game. Cause when gamers can finish a game they feel good about themselves and are more likely to buy a new game. Now here is the problem, the mainstream gamers are the biggest group of gamers and everything that isn't mainstream these days is concidered to be niche and deemed not worthy to invest in.
This is total bullocks. What is niche these days? Yeah CoD has millions of players, compared to their numbers a million players in another game is niche. But if we go back 10 years ago. Before the PS3 and Xbox 360. When gaming was concidered a nerd thing a million players meant your games was a massive success. Heck having 50.0000 players was a great number to have even. But today that is concidered to be a epic failure. Saying the money earned on the game doesn't justify the costs it took to make the game. But more often then not its just that they rather have a larger profit then a little less profit. Profit is profit. Money you make after all the costs are covered and often they still earn double or more profit then what it cost to make the game. Publishers just wanna earn more and more and totally screw over the core gamer. Just because the mainstream gamer doesn't want it doesn't mean there are still million of gamers who do want it and you could still make a nice profit on the games. And we don't even need the super fancy graphics the mainstream gamer demands. Gameplay over shiny graphics any day.
Most gamers don't care for virtual worlds you say. Then these people have no business in MMORPG's. Sorry but its a sad thing that MMORPG's are called MMO's today, cause the RPG part becomes less and less in the games. Why? Because mainstream gamers want to play MMO's too and god forbid they can't be highest lvl in two weeks. God forbid raids are hard and need 40 men working together and learning the raids. God forbid a virtual world is a living world instead of field where you run around and only have one purpose. Not every game has to be made for mainstream gamers damnit. And no don't say "go play older games then" cause its the biggest BS gamers say these days to defend the industry. Mainstream gamers have plenty of games to choose from every freaking month where core gamers get only one or two games a year and ammong the MMORPG's its been a long time. Heck why do you think kickstarter projects have a huge success in getting funds? Cause there are studios out there who believe you can offer core games to core gamers and they settle for a little less profit as long as they get to make the games they wanna make and games core gamers wanna play.
and what is fun for one, is not fun for the other. MMORPG's have become very easy over the years. You can reach highest level in most without ever having too group, its mostly just a option. Look at EVE online, its the greatest example how a very hard game that is based on players controlling the game is very profitable and fun for core gamers and you don't have to participate in combat. You can be a miner if you want and just mine astroids or become a trader. EVE is not my kind of game, but i would love to see a fantasy game with that gameplay. Where the world is controlled by the players and enough people have fun with that. Those who don't like that kind of games have plenty of other options to choose from.
Yeah, I know, you still have to kill as the last goal for almost everything in TSW, but I was counting the investigation, puzzle and reading parts also...
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Violence, sex and gore. It's about as creative as the human species gets. You probably thought we were more refined than that, huh? =(
Me too.
Social gaming is hot right now, and will be for as long as humans and gaming are around.
The term MMO, IMO is not a genre. It's a prefix. The genre would be FPS, RPG or whatever. People flock to MMORPG's because of the social aspect, not because of it being an RPG or a virtual world.
Most SP RPG are hardly hard so why make the online variety in such a way? Also, a fair few SP RPG's are not even virtual worlds, more games.
What's a core gamer? What qualifies a gamer to be a core gamer? I'm hoping it's not being used to represent someone as a "real" gamer. That's bollocks.
I agree, games marketed at the masses will generally be easier. EvE IMO is as hard as a modded Minecraft I play. I find EvE online to be a lot more tedious though.
I love games that are deep but deep games don't have to be hard. People say chess can be a pretty deep experience however the game is very easy to understand. Are chess player core gamers or not?
Agreed "MMO" is a pretty meaningless term now kind of like "indie music"
People who like RPGs play MMORPGs for the RPG parts and one of the biggest part of what makes an RPG is a virtual world. Not everyone just wants a social chat room. "Gamers" are a pretty diverse group. Companies tryto make these big one size fits all games to make a lot of money and in some cases (like Skyrim/ WoW) they succeed pretty well but just because a lot of people put up with the limitations in games like that doesn't mean they wouldn't be even happier playing a more niche game tailored to their direct desires.
More choice is good for everyone.
Chess is not at all an easy game to play well. It's pretty much the prototype of "Easy to learn, difficult (nearly impossible) to master.
It's a myth that chess is "nearly impossible to master" or that you "need to have a particularly high IQ to do well at it".
A study was done on chess grand masters to see what they had in common and to test their IQs. The study found that chess grand masters did not have particularly high IQs. The conclusion of the study was that success in chess is directly proportional to the number of games played or the amount of time invested in the game.