Originally posted by Xssiv I'd much rather have less active abilities with the option to swap abilities out to accommodate various play styles / roles as opposed to just using the same 15-20 abilities day in and day out.
I completely agree with you. But, lets be honest. You wouldn't even be using the 15-20 abilities. To maximize whatever role you are filling, you would use the most optimal rotation which would most likely use 8-10 abilities at most. Or in games like WoW Rift. You can use 2 macros for all those abilities.
It's really inconvenient to have more than 10 active abilities to juggle around. They just clutter the screen and are completely unnecessary. I'd rather have it more streamlined and less convoluted.
The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend.
No, it isn't dead, most mmorpg players prefer it and that is partially why Wow is still number 1. What is going to happen is, developers will get the hint after the next few mmorpgs fail to generate the revenue they need. There will be some minor success but I predict in the end they will all be forced to free-to-play and die a slow death.
Sure, there will be some cleanup to the number of abilities in Wow in future mmorpgs, but the current trend of a super low number of abilities will fail.
Nope the days of multiple hotbars is long dead and not many mmo players want it at all, most want single bar/ limited skill's at the ready. These type of multiple hit bar whack a mole combat mmo's have been failing for years and years.
This is entirely genre dependent. You assume far far too much. I can only assume you are trolling to suggest a singular factor like this is the driving force behind why the mmo market has stagnated. Considering all the other factors at play with why many mmos are failing you suggest that hotbars are the reason?
Having 30+ skills on hotbars doesn't mean you'll be using all 30 separately. WoW, Rift, ect have had macro support and is widely used by players who want the most out of their toon. In WoW, my Rogue had roughly 12 macros along with a few single-use hotkeys, my Druid had a about 10 macros with a few single-use skills. Saying that Wildstar will fail in the long run because it only allows 10 skills at any time because it doesn't allow 15 makes really no sense to me, just my opnion. It's going to be the content itself that dictates how well the game is recieved and how long the game will stay healthy.
The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend.
No, it isn't dead, most mmorpg players prefer it and that is partially why Wow is still number 1. What is going to happen is, developers will get the hint after the next few mmorpgs fail to generate the revenue they need. There will be some minor success but I predict in the end they will all be forced to free-to-play and die a slow death.
Sure, there will be some cleanup to the number of abilities in Wow in future mmorpgs, but the current trend of a super low number of abilities will fail.
Nope the days of multiple hotbars is long dead and not many mmo players want it at all, most want single bar/ limited skill's at the ready. These type of multiple hit bar whack a mole combat mmo's have been failing for years and years.
This is entirely genre dependent. You assume far far too much. I can only assume you are trolling to suggest a singular factor like this is the driving force behind why the mmo market has stagnated. Considering all the other factors at play with why many mmos are failing you suggest that hotbars are the reason?
Seriously?
Seriously?
Trolling? And you are saying I said it was the "singular" reason? If you read my post I said number of skills is "partially why Wow is still number1". If you can't read the very post you are quoting properly you shouldn't be hitting the reply button.
Originally posted by Xssiv I'd much rather have less active abilities with the option to swap abilities out to accommodate various play styles / roles as opposed to just using the same 15-20 abilities day in and day out.
False Dichotomy, you can still swap out abilities and have 15-20 active. The two concepts aren't mutually exclusive.
I have yet to see a strong argument for fewer skills, I swear if Wildstar came out and capped you at only 1 hot bar key, people would blindly defend it like they are the current #. I saw the same thing in TSW where they said anything more than 7 would ruin the game, suddenly 10 is perfect for this new game etc..
How do you know most mmo players prefer it ? Just because people play wow and it has 50 million skills doesn't mean that's what they prefer. They may just like wow and it happens to have that many skill.
I understand where the OP is coming from. Sure a lot of MMOs you can use probably 10 or less regular active skills (and some of these new games have less than that available), but it is nice to have the choice to use others, such as buffs, situational.
Even in EQ, with the 8 spell slots, you still had a lot more spells, just had to load them up. I had more buffs I regularly used in EQ than wildstar lets you use. I rather have had them always available, but it was like a 1sec switch to call them up. Could even do it it combat. Or if you were a hybrid with spells and skills. Then factor in AA skills, lol, there are a lot more used than a mere handful.
Daoc used a lot more, and often needed them because they used combos in combat. 4 combo chain off evade, 3 combo off parry, from the side, behind, front, anywhere multiple chains, stealth, blocking, depending on your class, plus spells. I regularly used 15-20 for a melee, less for my casters.
Eq2, used about 8-10 regularly, but twice that semi regularly and a few more after that once in a while. I love that choice, that option to be able to use a wide variety of skills.Devs keep dumbing down games and people apppaud them for it, all the while the number of players continue to dwindle. I want more choices in my games, more things to do, more variety.
Even if people do use only like 10 skills normally, isn't it nice to have those utility skills off to the side to use when you want. Like if you want to levitate, or walk on water, teleport, run faster, buff. I never understood why people would complain about having the option of convenience of using extra abilities when it detracts from nothing, whereas lacking the ability to use them can hamper gameplay, even lessen it if you aren't given the abilities at all!
Originally posted by JemAs666 If mobs lived longer than ~10 seconds in modern MMOs, having more skills might make sense. In the current MMO this is not the case and people only use 1 to 5 skills. Lets face it, most people don't pay attention enough these days to play a game that involves 15-20 skill rotations. They are too involved with watching TV, sitting on the toilet, or eating to waste time paying attention to more than mashing 1-5 on their keyboard. In the EQ days the average player didn't have resources to have 9 monitors with 5 games going on at the same time, watching youtube, hulu, netflix, porn, and 25 different websites opened all at the same time.
the first mmos i played didnt have so many skills, and they were great. AO, SWG, even wow.
Originally posted by Xssiv I'd much rather have less active abilities with the option to swap abilities out to accommodate various play styles / roles as opposed to just using the same 15-20 abilities day in and day out.
False Dichotomy, you can still swap out abilities and have 15-20 active. The two concepts aren't mutually exclusive.
I have yet to see a strong argument for fewer skills, I swear if Wildstar came out and capped you at only 1 hot bar key, people would blindly defend it like they are the current #. I saw the same thing in TSW where they said anything more than 7 would ruin the game, suddenly 10 is perfect for this new game etc..
gw1 was fun with 8 (?) skills. because the combat was fun and animations fluid.
tsw had problems with animations and the combat/skills werent great
gw2 i never liked being bound to specific weapons and the need to swap them to use different skills
so i think what really matters isnt the number of skills, but the combination of skills/animations/gameplay and this i can only say after i played the game.
Originally posted by fantasyfreak112 Agree with OP. Part of the reason GW2 got boring so fast was the lack of usable abilities made the gameplay dry up faster then Joan Rivers. No idea why companies think this is a good feature to copy. Sick of every other new game having a cheesy dodge roll too. It isn't even used to dodge, it's just a cheesy 1 second immunity whether you roll right into the attack or not.
GW2 comes to my mind as well, its the main reason I don't play it. I tried and tried but cant get past the gimped feeling I have with such limitations on my skills, and swapping weapons doesnt help either, I just found it to be annoying rather than adding to the fun. I feel like people have to much time to think about how to counter my moves rather than making split second decisions like one would really need to do in combat.
gw2 problem wasnt only the skills bound to weapons but the only few choices you had to place your skills.
wildstar has 10/10/10 skills with further specialications. you cant compare that to gw2
I think too many skills overcomplicates a game and makes it less fun and more of a game of "watch the cooldown timers". I can understand how that style of play has an appeal for many, but I am not one of them. I would rather have a system which makes due with fewer hotbar slots, but it needs to be done creatively.
A combo system can work with four buttons. Three set up the combo and one executes it. This can give a MMO the same feeling as playing an arcade fighting game, but at a bit slower pace which most MMO players can keep up with. The Warden class in LOTRO was a perfect example of how most of their skills are activated through combos. A combo system can use a few more skills as long as it doesn't get too complex.
Macros for executing abilities were almost necessary in Rift due to the vast amount of skills with cooldowns. Instead of having 25 buttons to press and keep track of cooldowns, most classes can condense their abilities to 3-6 macros. How is that any different from only having a few buttons to press? Just because you activate different abilities when you press button 1 repeatedly, that doesn't make the game more fun than something like Guild Wars or TSW.
Fewer buttons keeps people's attention on the action instead of their action bars. WoW-aholics may not agree, but I don't care.
To clarify, I am not saying we need to have the whole screen cluttered with hot bars, equivalent to a maximum level character in Wow. I am saying we need some where in the range of 15-20 active combat abilities per class to keep things interesting, and I am talking about for a single role, not role swapping. I am not against having people choose which abilities they will bring with them to combat, but the base number needs to be Increased to something higher than what I am seeing in the growing number of new mmorpgs including Wildstar. Some of these abilities can be situational, some of them can be on long cooldowns etc. Some of these abilities ca be more fluff, or for fun/humor, adding variety to the game. The key is variety in combat.
I am not sure why Developers think limiting the number of active class abilities to 7-10 is some how going to improve gameplay, especially when recent action mmorpgs have failed with that configuration. For a single player game that is meant to be played for 40-60 hours, this limited setup can work. Mmorpgs are meant to be played for much longer, boredom will set in after 1-2 months and players will leave and limited active abilities are a primary reason.
The movement and targeting in Wildstar does not make up for this fact, there is not enough of it to justify such a significant reduction in core active powers. This is not an FPS where you are actually aiming in the true sense, it is just a slight improvement to the base combat system that has been in mmorpgs for years, reducing the powers offsets any improvements made.
TSW didn't hold people's attention very long, even with positive reviews, I think limited active skills was a major contributor, the other beeing poor animations in combat.
DCU was another game that had potential and failed, limited you to 6 active powers was a major reasons. The mouse based combos and blocking etc helped some what, but it was still not enough to offset the limiting combat system.
GW1 didn't exactly fail, but I and many others only played for small stretches due to the limits of the combat system. Arenanet knew this was a mjaor issue in Gw1, that is why they made a somewhat significant increase in active abilities in GW2. I applaud them, but i think they should have made a lot of the abilities not so directly linked to a specific weopon type. I think people would have played Gw2 longer with more variety in combat.
when I play a mmorpg for several months as a DPS character, I would like to have at least 4-5 single target DPS, 4-5 aoe abilities, and at least a few utility and CC abilities. I don't mind having to change ouit abilities out of combat, but I want more diversity in combat. So the number of skills doesn't need to be 40+ but certainly higher than 10 or lower.
I have played mmorpgs for a long time, since AO was released in 2001 and see this trend as a regression. AO (pre-expansion) limited the number of abilities your character had in combat, and it is one of the reasons I have never returned to that game after all these years.
Almost all of the games with a limited action bar has action combat or a hybrid combat. The games with multiple hotbars and skills for those bars are dice rolling combat.
you cannot have action combat with 20-30 active skills
Every class gets at least 30 abilities to choose from, that seems like a lot of variety. And with all the combinations possible you're not not so likely to find two people with the same selection, so that's like variety squared.
Not true, there will always be a cookie cutter build that the majority follows, you'll get the oddball that has some weird ass skill selection and think it's awesome, while in fact he will be performing sub-par.
Actually, 10 skills + dodge are more than enough. I've played a frostmage until lvl 90 in WoW and never used more than 10 skills (mostly like 6) in PvE and still did a lot of dmg. In almost all MMOs (I've played Lineage 2, TERA, WoW, Aion, Guild Wars 2 etc.) there are lots of absolutely useless skills or skills that you use very rarely (in special situations, mostly in PvP). I'm playing TERA right now and I use mostly 5 skills in PvE and 8 in PvP.
It's not just about the number of skills, timing and a good strategy are also very important.
Why not offer more hotbar skill/spell usage on UI and if players don't want to use that many they dont have to. People that want less can trim it down to what they want and those that like a higher number and variety of skills can load up? I see al ot of players want choices not limitations, so why limit on combat?
Wildstar has plenty of ability slots/hotkeys to use. You may only have 8 skills, but all skills have a relatively short cooldown, add on to that you have your innate ability, your path ability, trinket, dodge, sprint, and so on and it's a lot more like 15 skills rather than 8 as you say.
I actually thought guild wars 2 had some of the best skill system thus far until I seen wildstars. I think what those games have brought back that was really missing from mmos like wow/all the one's that just copied wow was build diversity. In those games, it was very hard to even make your character stand out or come up with builds of your own, instead you're just like everyone else and I think it decreases the enjoyment of the game that way. Now players will actually have to think about what way they want to build their character in wildstar and I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone with the same build as there are just so many different combinations to chose from.
One of the reasons I just couldn't keep playing final fantasy 14 was just that every single character was the same. Same gear, same skills, a job system which basically allowed you to maybe have one different skill than the next, but most of the time it was pretty obvious which one you would want.
Controlling more abilities does not equal a more skilled game. It just makes it more annoying and tedious to set up all the hotkeys/have your bar all cluttered.
I don't believe they all have to be active skills. In the contrary, I believe we need many utility and situational (some just for fun) skills for each class that makes the class special.
Every class gets at least 30 abilities to choose from, that seems like a lot of variety. And with all the combinations possible you're not not so likely to find two people with the same selection, so that's like variety squared.
Not true, there will always be a cookie cutter build that the majority follows, you'll get the oddball that has some weird ass skill selection and think it's awesome, while in fact he will be performing sub-par.
That is only when a class fills one role. Each class is a hybrid (Wildstar). Either they are dps/healers or dps/tanks. So, there will never be just one cookie cutter action set.
I understand where the OP is coming from. Sure a lot of MMOs you can use probably 10 or less regular active skills (and some of these new games have less than that available), but it is nice to have the choice to use others, such as buffs, situational.
Even in EQ, with the 8 spell slots, you still had a lot more spells, just had to load them up. I had more buffs I regularly used in EQ than wildstar lets you use. I rather have had them always available, but it was like a 1sec switch to call them up. Could even do it it combat. Or if you were a hybrid with spells and skills. Then factor in AA skills, lol, there are a lot more used than a mere handful.
Daoc used a lot more, and often needed them because they used combos in combat. 4 combo chain off evade, 3 combo off parry, from the side, behind, front, anywhere multiple chains, stealth, blocking, depending on your class, plus spells. I regularly used 15-20 for a melee, less for my casters.
Eq2, used about 8-10 regularly, but twice that semi regularly and a few more after that once in a while. I love that choice, that option to be able to use a wide variety of skills.Devs keep dumbing down games and people apppaud them for it, all the while the number of players continue to dwindle. I want more choices in my games, more things to do, more variety.
Even if people do use only like 10 skills normally, isn't it nice to have those utility skills off to the side to use when you want. Like if you want to levitate, or walk on water, teleport, run faster, buff. I never understood why people would complain about having the option of convenience of using extra abilities when it detracts from nothing, whereas lacking the ability to use them can hamper gameplay, even lessen it if you aren't given the abilities at all!
There's a big problem with having a lot of self-buffs. It's the fact that usually people just google guides for their class and know which buffs to use in which situation, so implementing those is absolutely useless. Most players also google the perfect rotation so in the end everyone mostly uses around 10 skills. Furthermore, those people who don't want to read dozens of pages of class guides are always at a disadvantage in MMOs with more than 10 skills. Some games are just for fun and reading class guides all day is just a waste of time and sometimes people (including me) tend to read way too much about the gameplay instead of actually playing.
Actually, 10 skills + dodge are more than enough. I've played a frostmage until lvl 90 in WoW and never used more than 10 skills (mostly like 6) in PvE and still did a lot of dmg. In almost all MMOs (I've played Lineage 2, TERA, WoW, Aion, Guild Wars 2 etc.) there are lots of absolutely useless skills or skills that you use very rarely (in special situations, mostly in PvP). I'm playing TERA right now and I use mostly 5 skills in PvE and 8 in PvP.
It's not just about the number of skills, timing and a good strategy are also very important.
It all depends on the game. In DDO as a wizard, You would need access to a wide variety of spells for buff, utility need that would pop up time to time and spells that were better against certain mobs (fire/ice for elementals, others for undead, golems, etc., plus aoes, direct, and more). Of the 50+ spells on screen you might use 20+ different ones in any one quest, not including the one you used just because they looked cool or for variety. I had them arranged so they didn't take much focus off of action on screen and could still move and change tactics to help group with a mass cc, root, distract, etc.
But i can see with other games theres no need for anywhere near that many.
I may be wrong, but exactly how many skills do you get to use in Guild Wars? Or even world of warcraft has limited useful skills for your current spec and usage. Get over it.
The target market is different now and it ends up being relative.
All these action-oriented trends [limited hotbars, in-combat dodging and weapon swapping] are targeting the generation(s) that think CCGs and Zelda games are deep RPGs. And to them they may be.
These new games are not aimed at those (of us) who have been playing RPGs with hundreds of pages of riches and rules for 30-40 years. Not that previous games exclusively were, or even did a good job of it, but now they're not really trying at all.
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I completely agree with you. But, lets be honest. You wouldn't even be using the 15-20 abilities. To maximize whatever role you are filling, you would use the most optimal rotation which would most likely use 8-10 abilities at most. Or in games like WoW Rift. You can use 2 macros for all those abilities.
This is entirely genre dependent. You assume far far too much. I can only assume you are trolling to suggest a singular factor like this is the driving force behind why the mmo market has stagnated. Considering all the other factors at play with why many mmos are failing you suggest that hotbars are the reason?
Seriously?
Seriously?
You stay sassy!
Trolling? And you are saying I said it was the "singular" reason? If you read my post I said number of skills is "partially why Wow is still number1". If you can't read the very post you are quoting properly you shouldn't be hitting the reply button.
False Dichotomy, you can still swap out abilities and have 15-20 active. The two concepts aren't mutually exclusive.
I have yet to see a strong argument for fewer skills, I swear if Wildstar came out and capped you at only 1 hot bar key, people would blindly defend it like they are the current #. I saw the same thing in TSW where they said anything more than 7 would ruin the game, suddenly 10 is perfect for this new game etc..
How do you know most mmo players prefer it ? Just because people play wow and it has 50 million skills doesn't mean that's what they prefer. They may just like wow and it happens to have that many skill.
I understand where the OP is coming from. Sure a lot of MMOs you can use probably 10 or less regular active skills (and some of these new games have less than that available), but it is nice to have the choice to use others, such as buffs, situational.
Even in EQ, with the 8 spell slots, you still had a lot more spells, just had to load them up. I had more buffs I regularly used in EQ than wildstar lets you use. I rather have had them always available, but it was like a 1sec switch to call them up. Could even do it it combat. Or if you were a hybrid with spells and skills. Then factor in AA skills, lol, there are a lot more used than a mere handful.
Daoc used a lot more, and often needed them because they used combos in combat. 4 combo chain off evade, 3 combo off parry, from the side, behind, front, anywhere multiple chains, stealth, blocking, depending on your class, plus spells. I regularly used 15-20 for a melee, less for my casters.
Eq2, used about 8-10 regularly, but twice that semi regularly and a few more after that once in a while. I love that choice, that option to be able to use a wide variety of skills.Devs keep dumbing down games and people apppaud them for it, all the while the number of players continue to dwindle. I want more choices in my games, more things to do, more variety.
Even if people do use only like 10 skills normally, isn't it nice to have those utility skills off to the side to use when you want. Like if you want to levitate, or walk on water, teleport, run faster, buff. I never understood why people would complain about having the option of convenience of using extra abilities when it detracts from nothing, whereas lacking the ability to use them can hamper gameplay, even lessen it if you aren't given the abilities at all!
the first mmos i played didnt have so many skills, and they were great. AO, SWG, even wow.
gw1 was fun with 8 (?) skills. because the combat was fun and animations fluid.
tsw had problems with animations and the combat/skills werent great
gw2 i never liked being bound to specific weapons and the need to swap them to use different skills
so i think what really matters isnt the number of skills, but the combination of skills/animations/gameplay and this i can only say after i played the game.
gw2 problem wasnt only the skills bound to weapons but the only few choices you had to place your skills.
wildstar has 10/10/10 skills with further specialications. you cant compare that to gw2
I think too many skills overcomplicates a game and makes it less fun and more of a game of "watch the cooldown timers". I can understand how that style of play has an appeal for many, but I am not one of them. I would rather have a system which makes due with fewer hotbar slots, but it needs to be done creatively.
A combo system can work with four buttons. Three set up the combo and one executes it. This can give a MMO the same feeling as playing an arcade fighting game, but at a bit slower pace which most MMO players can keep up with. The Warden class in LOTRO was a perfect example of how most of their skills are activated through combos. A combo system can use a few more skills as long as it doesn't get too complex.
Macros for executing abilities were almost necessary in Rift due to the vast amount of skills with cooldowns. Instead of having 25 buttons to press and keep track of cooldowns, most classes can condense their abilities to 3-6 macros. How is that any different from only having a few buttons to press? Just because you activate different abilities when you press button 1 repeatedly, that doesn't make the game more fun than something like Guild Wars or TSW.
Fewer buttons keeps people's attention on the action instead of their action bars. WoW-aholics may not agree, but I don't care.
uhh no...lol
Almost all of the games with a limited action bar has action combat or a hybrid combat. The games with multiple hotbars and skills for those bars are dice rolling combat.
you cannot have action combat with 20-30 active skills
Not true, there will always be a cookie cutter build that the majority follows, you'll get the oddball that has some weird ass skill selection and think it's awesome, while in fact he will be performing sub-par.
Actually, 10 skills + dodge are more than enough. I've played a frostmage until lvl 90 in WoW and never used more than 10 skills (mostly like 6) in PvE and still did a lot of dmg. In almost all MMOs (I've played Lineage 2, TERA, WoW, Aion, Guild Wars 2 etc.) there are lots of absolutely useless skills or skills that you use very rarely (in special situations, mostly in PvP). I'm playing TERA right now and I use mostly 5 skills in PvE and 8 in PvP.
It's not just about the number of skills, timing and a good strategy are also very important.
Wildstar has plenty of ability slots/hotkeys to use. You may only have 8 skills, but all skills have a relatively short cooldown, add on to that you have your innate ability, your path ability, trinket, dodge, sprint, and so on and it's a lot more like 15 skills rather than 8 as you say.
I actually thought guild wars 2 had some of the best skill system thus far until I seen wildstars. I think what those games have brought back that was really missing from mmos like wow/all the one's that just copied wow was build diversity. In those games, it was very hard to even make your character stand out or come up with builds of your own, instead you're just like everyone else and I think it decreases the enjoyment of the game that way. Now players will actually have to think about what way they want to build their character in wildstar and I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone with the same build as there are just so many different combinations to chose from.
One of the reasons I just couldn't keep playing final fantasy 14 was just that every single character was the same. Same gear, same skills, a job system which basically allowed you to maybe have one different skill than the next, but most of the time it was pretty obvious which one you would want.
Controlling more abilities does not equal a more skilled game. It just makes it more annoying and tedious to set up all the hotkeys/have your bar all cluttered.
I don't believe they all have to be active skills. In the contrary, I believe we need many utility and situational (some just for fun) skills for each class that makes the class special.
That is only when a class fills one role. Each class is a hybrid (Wildstar). Either they are dps/healers or dps/tanks. So, there will never be just one cookie cutter action set.
There's a big problem with having a lot of self-buffs. It's the fact that usually people just google guides for their class and know which buffs to use in which situation, so implementing those is absolutely useless. Most players also google the perfect rotation so in the end everyone mostly uses around 10 skills. Furthermore, those people who don't want to read dozens of pages of class guides are always at a disadvantage in MMOs with more than 10 skills. Some games are just for fun and reading class guides all day is just a waste of time and sometimes people (including me) tend to read way too much about the gameplay instead of actually playing.
It all depends on the game. In DDO as a wizard, You would need access to a wide variety of spells for buff, utility need that would pop up time to time and spells that were better against certain mobs (fire/ice for elementals, others for undead, golems, etc., plus aoes, direct, and more). Of the 50+ spells on screen you might use 20+ different ones in any one quest, not including the one you used just because they looked cool or for variety. I had them arranged so they didn't take much focus off of action on screen and could still move and change tactics to help group with a mass cc, root, distract, etc.
But i can see with other games theres no need for anywhere near that many.
Maybe.
The target market is different now and it ends up being relative.
All these action-oriented trends [limited hotbars, in-combat dodging and weapon swapping] are targeting the generation(s) that think CCGs and Zelda games are deep RPGs. And to them they may be.
These new games are not aimed at those (of us) who have been playing RPGs with hundreds of pages of riches and rules for 30-40 years. Not that previous games exclusively were, or even did a good job of it, but now they're not really trying at all.
Such is life.