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Hey PVE guy, what is it that you want?
bcbully
Member EpicPosts: 11,843
A lot of people say they are sick of the WoW format of questing, battle grounds, dungeons, and simply crafting. Recent mmos have been adding instanced housing, and claim to big on explorations. What is it that you guys actually want in order to play a new release longer than 1-3 months?
Give 3 features that would make the difference for you.
Comments
I am not sure if trolling or you never played EQ before.
WOW Dungeons: Instanced, Linear, reward in tokens to buy gear from a merchant.
EQ Dungeons: Not instanced, sprawling to the point of getting lost, reward of gear dropped from random rare spawned 'Named' mobs.
Lol, you obviously never played EQ or you are joking, right?
Don't get me wrong, EQ was a big inspiration to Blizzard even to the point of hiring elite EQ players but EQ is pretty far away from WOW.
*sighs*
Ok, I'll assume that YOU'RE not trolling and point out that my first two points are directed at the gist of the question, and that the third point is directed at the question. I even put a winky emoticon in there to make it clear.
Now, back on topic.......
See my previous response.
The problem with most games today is that they focus less on creating a virtual world and more about creating a roller coaster type experience. There can be a number of things that can be debated about this, but these are the major things that always go through my mind when evaluating a game.
Unlimited Progression - Such as AA skills for Original Everquest meets old school wow talent points, once I reach the 'level cap'. My character should always be able to improve on himself without having to resort to gear to do it. Unlock new skills, actions, and so on. This sort of thing should be 'technically' impossible to ever cap due to the large amount of options.
Endless Exploration - I want to be able to go out into the wild and truly 'explore' and I want there to be rewards for being the first to find something. If through luck I manage to find an ancient temple and clear it then my rewards should truly be epic. I should be able to sell or tell people where these locations are. I don't ever want to run out of places to see, or have to wait for additional content. Dev content addition updates shouldn't be publicized then published in the patch notes. It should simply say "We added something somewhere. Go find it."
Meaningful Crafting - There needs to be a complex and thriving market and crafters need to be the heart of it. Creating everything from gear to cosmetic equipment. Having a complex and demanding economy will give incentive to the explorers to go out and harvest/collect rare things from the wild to bring back to the crafters and the crafters will make the items the explorers then need to go out and conquer more.
It seems the exploration aspect is always false. There are always GPS, instant transportation, and mounts to make you go a lot faster. They also always lead you from one place to another with quests. It's very unlikely to be in a place where a mob might kill you. There are no high level enemies wandering around in the low level areas ever.
I would like to see more complex dungeons similar to what Everquest (Original Offered). Underwater dungeons, deep dungeons full of traps, not instanced (ability to encounter others). In a lot of MMOs I've tried I notice that you can't go under the water at all.
It would be nice to see more fun spells. Spells like Levitate, Speed increase, illusion, change size, water breathing, , teleport (for specific classes), invisibility, etc. Most of the skills/spells I see in games these days are all combat oriented and make me want to yawn. They are clearly created around PvP and not around PvE. I think devs could learn a lot about fun abilities looking back on old versions of D&D. The only problem with old school D&D was the melee classes were terrible. Perhaps there should never be a vanilla warrior/rogue type class and instead hybrids that also have access to some spells like the Paladin/Ranger/Shadow Knight type classes.
To add to the discussion, I do not think an MMO needs questing, battle grounds and instanced dungeons. Strictly speaking about PVE here so we can ignore battlegrounds.
1) Large Expansive world to explore with no fast travel or teleportation to trivialize the scope of the world (traveling to a new town should be an ordeal, newbies should band together in groups to make the trip from one town to the next.)
2) Open wold dungeons (not instanced) that anyone can go into, large enough to support several groups of players in various wings.
3) Meaningful choices and progression, not everyone of your class should be the same exact carbon copy of the rest, build in choices that make you different and provide a way to progress your character even after you reach the maximum level.
Personally it all comes down to content consumption vs content creation. We have got to the point in newer MMOs that the developers and designers allow you to level up so quickly (sometimes within days or a week). Then expect you to run the same 5 dungeons over and over and over again for 6 months while they make more content. Slow it the hell down, make it so getting to the 'end game' is not the goal. Let us enjoy the mid levels with lots of places to go and dungeons to explore.
I see a problem where if the leveling speed is too fast, people almost try and force themselves to grind to get it over with. Where as if it took months to level people don't feel like they have to grind they take there time and let the levels come when they come. They go out and do stuff at level 17, they form groups and try and kill that level 18 dungeon boss. They worry about getting dungeon gear for level 20 and complete the whole set unlike newer games where you leveled 10 times before you could get a full set and none of that gear has any meaning or worth to you anymore.
Games need to be hard, they need to force you to band together to progress faster, instead of expecting you to solo all the way to max level then decide you have to group now. Make grouping an integral part of the game which helps enforce social aspects, people care about their reputation because being a jerk will quickly lead to no one grouping with you.
Slowing things down makes for a more enjoyable community imho.
The last mmo to be made that has all you mention was Vanguard, even with it's faults no other mmo comes close.
I loved Vanguard, I played it for a long time then it became clear that after Brad sold it to Sony that they did not intend to add any new content and wanted the game to die out. They put out yearly expansions to EQ2 but completely ignored content for Vanguard and that is what killed it for me. At some point you just cant do the same thing every day and get any kind of satisfaction out of it. I honestly would go back to Vanguard right now if they committed to bi-yearly content expansions and bug fixing and spruce up the graphics/animations for 2014.
I want more games like that world and I am waiting to see what Brads new Kickstarter is going to bring to the table but I am not holding my breath on that one.
I remember playing Vanguard for a while, but I can't remember why I left lol. I didn't invest enough time into it to get attached to in like I did with Ultima Online, Everquest, and even World of Warcraft. I do remember it being touted as the next EQ, but for some reason it didn't feel like EQ to me. I've recently gone back to Everquest and even though it is vastly different I still like the spells, zones, artwork, and gameplay. I always enjoyed traveling around EQ and always liked the artwork. It was pretty blocky and goofy, but it fit a fantasy world pretty well. Now you can only choose the new models. They do look a bit better in many ways, but the classic models were pretty neat. I also enjoy the combat in EQ a lot though it is a little tedious/long at times. It could probably be shortened down a little. Maybe I'll go try Vanguard again and see what it's like.
Actually Darwa is mostly correct in his joking assertion.WoW took the EQ formula and changed it based on common complaints at the time and found solutions to them that are now hated on these forums,then added in features from other MMOs that they liked on top.
But EQ was the start of the direction WoW and subsequent MMOs took for good or ill.
If EQNL is what I imagine it to be - giant dayz-sized maps, open world housing, player-built infrastructure, creative freedom, crafting/gathering, long term skill progression, player-run economy/player shops, then that is exactly what I want, and I'll probably play it for a long time. I'm semi-cautious about it though, since it seems they might make it overly simplified to attract more casuals.
Eso/wildstar on the other hand seem to be going down the same old route of small maps cramped with content, quest hubs, kill/fetch grind blah blah. Gonna buy ESO for the storyline just because I have an interest in the TES games, got no motivation to buy wildstar atm. Seems like it's gonna be yet another endgame dungeon grind.
Open world like the original EQ pre Scars of Velious
Mix of open dungeons and instance dungeons to scale to group size.
Crafting that is vital as all gear breaks down and the best items are all made no more raid or die games.
Have you not read the Bible?
Oh, yeah, yeah... Not all of it. Actually, I'm listening to it on tape.
Don't tell me how it ends.
3.5 edition D&D combat rules
turn based combat vs mobs
caravans and a complex economy.
(1) A great character creator like City of Heroes. I want my character to look exactly like I want.
(2) A rich and satisfying skill/talent/power/etc system. It should be really tricky to work out builds, so you can spend hours doing it. Think Guild Wars 1 (not 2...yuck...) or CoX here.
(3) A sense of exploration. Guild Wars 2 did a good job here (but with little else...) You should have lots of fun places to see and explore and figure out.
Edit: I almost forgot---> NO END GAME GEAR GRIND, AT ALL! We should play your game because we like playing your game, not because of the Skinner rat-and-maze box you are building. I don't understand why so many people don't get this fundamental concept. They play MMOs for stat point gains, which to me is just so absurd. You should play MMOs because you like the gameplay. But you get so many people who hate the gameplay but just play because they are addicted to stat point increases. And of course they quit eventually when they realize they are a drug addict, and are angry about it and troll the game mercilessly. It is not a hard concept: MAKE GAMES THAT ARE FUN TO PLAY, AND KEEP PEOPLE PLAYING FOR THE GAMEPLAY AND NOT FOR STAT INCREASES.
My 3 things:
1. Freedom to play the game with my character as a participant in a virtual world, and select or avoid (without penalty) developer provided content (do a task, get a storyline).
2. and 3. Nothing. With number 1, everything else will fall into place.
Generally speaking:
1) A living world in which my character can live.
2) Quests that matter, possibly specific to my character's race or class.
3) Factions and NPC Guilds like Mages, Thieves, Fighters, and Temples where players go to adventure in the world.
And a bonus feature:
4) Consequences for decisions. Decisions have consequences.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I agree that the speed of leveling has caused most of today's problems. Grouping would happen as you say naturally if it takes months to get to the level cap. Dungeon runs every 10 levels or so and the gear would actually last a few weeks would be great. Then players would be ready and want to join in the end game dungeons. Organized guilds would still be first to get to and clear end game dungeons. But it should be 6 months from the start of a MMO when this would happen. Not a couple of weeks, then on to the next MMO.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
More than three for me.
You, Captain Picard, and I are in agreement.
I'd add unique character advancement options.
The whole concept of "Skills", a staple of table-top gaming, has become so far removed from MMO gaming.
I question whether the basic premise is valid outside of the rather loud but trivially tiny percentage of the MMO population that inhabits invirons such as these.
And, frankly, even within the noisy rabble that populate these sites, if you point to a game that has what they claim to want there will always be thirty reasons why it's no good. A hint, I suspect, that the lists of wanted features that come out of these discussions is entirely meaningless.
Things always look so much better on paper than messy reality with its unintended consequences and free-willed other players who won't do the sensible thing and perform in the expected manner...
The last mmorpg that I played for more than a few months had the following features:
-- sandbox with some "themeparks" thrown in (Themeparks aren't going to hold my attention for long because if I manage to finish the story or max out my character I'm done. I don't see the point of continuing to play at that point.)
-- combination of combat and non-combat roles with non-combat roles having a significant part in the game; player economy; non-instanced player housing/cities/structures (Once again, a reason to continue playing. Crafted items were needed so there was a motivation to continue with crafting, where most games have everything a player needs via system vendors or looting so even if I'm crafting for the fun of it while developing combat skills, once I'm done with combat there's no motivation to continue crafting. Plus I find in many games that crafting ability usually lags behind combat ability.)
-- character development without levels attached; content of varying difficulty once again without levels attached, plus being grouped made you stronger as an individual (This meant that people could join in activities with others no matter the stage of character development. It also meant that players could tackle content/areas in whatever order they chose. It was certain death in some areas for lower developed toons but low areas usually had missions of varying difficulty so one did not "out level" a certain area.)
-- choices, choices, choices: For example, character development was not a matter of choosing a class in character creation and being stuck with that class. In character development, players chose a starting profession but as soon as one rezzed in for the first time they could add other professions or totally change professions. Players had a certain amount of points to spend on skill trees and could spread them out over a mix of professions. Also, players could always give up skills if they didn't like the current set-up or wanted to try something new.
-- subscription based (which meant I had access to EVERYTHING in the game for a flat monthly fee: I didn't hit road blocks that I had to pay to unlock; I had access to all races, professions, and areas without having to pay to unlock; master crafters had a wide range of colors to use in outfits and a wide range of outfits to craft so I didn't get tired of looking at some horrible clothing designed to motivate people into buying "costumes" from a cash shop; and since there was no cash shop to purchase stuff from it meant spending time earning in-game currency to make purchases and to replace items since armor and weapons decayed. Basically, because the game was subscription, there was no rushing through a game via paying for short cuts versus leaving a game due to getting fed up with game-design meant to motivate cash shop purchases.)
What I think is needed is a developer with vision and guts. I mean, vision to say "this is the game we're making and if you don't like it the exit is that way." Unfortunately that probably means someone who is self-financed and doesn't mind at least in the beginning having the game be rather niche.
I can't think of anything good in game design that ever come from listening to player whining though. Often what the vocal minority of players want is in direct conflict with what makes the game as a whole good and even if not I'd rather play a game with a firm vision behind it than one that tries to please everyone.