There are a few facts you need to understand about EVE-Online. For starters, EVE ain't all that popular in the sense that for a game that's always talked about, you'll rarely see 70K people online (Haven't played since 2011, having played since 2004, and out of those 70K you need to account for the crap load of multi clients, botters, scammers) at once and the game has been running for 10+ years. Also you need to remember that sandbox = niche, so it doesn't please all that many people to play in a open world FFA PvP. If it did, CCP wouldn't of bothered with Dust 514 since EVE would of had a few hundred K's online at once.
Anyway, you got Star Citizen and Novus Aeterno that will most likely start the down fall of EVE-Online and force CCP on putting EVE-Online F2P. It's a shame though, CCP has been at it for 10 years on EVE-Online and they always made it easier for grieffers to piss people off and scamming is part of the game. Oh well it's their bad, since we got 2 awesome games coming in to replace EVE, but it will most likely happen in 2015. Novus Aeterno is suppose to enter Alpha in April 2014 and if everything goes to plan, Beta at the end of 2014. Where as Star Citizen, we might see it in Alpha by mid way / Q3 2014.
Originally posted by Loktofeit The only game designer I can see making an EVE-like sandbox MMO that isn't just a cheap copy of the UI/gameplay (Perpetuum) or a barebones gankfest (some other recent MMOs) is Raph Koster. I really think he 'gets it' and understands what's involved in making an engaging, open world PVP, virtual world/universe.
Played Eve for 5 years and Perpetuum for 2 years (still playing) . My opinion is Perpetuum's PvP is far superior to Eve's PvP in every way. The subs dont reflect this. odd
none incoming games cant replace Eve in next 10 years
Eve is something special & unique in mmo genre
I have no idea why none copied Eve? perfect mmorpg concept !
maybe it is not about game, maybe it is all about players or it is just New Eden Universe !
Yeah, not sure EvE can even be simply copied.
Maybe the structures that make it so unique and great have to slowly evolve in a growing game and wouldn't replicate in a big launch AAA style setup with a big scale goldrush mentality.
Eve starting out relatively small/niche is probably one of it's strengths and the reason why it is like it is.
First of all eve is by far not the first open world pvp game that was succesful!
Second maybe eves pvp mechanics are working but its a game pure for geeks you love it or its boring like hell .
For me Neocron was the only open world pvp game that could cut it.
Then I will rephrase that to say the one that has been successful the longest. And also the one most quoted by PvP proponents.
How do you measure success? By how long the game has been running? In that case UO is still running and still have open world PvP, and was also produced before Eve...
And they don't work well b/c since the beginning of MMO's if you give full PvP will full Loot you will ultimately for some unknown reason have people who get upset when they lose a virtual item, or all of them to the point that they quit, or rage quit. Also there tend to be a larger amount of PK's as apposed to Anti PK's in these games so defending the innocent gets hard.
How well is EVE really doing? It's certainly able to stay afloat but with another round of layoffs for the WoD staff I'm starting to have my doubts that CCP is a shining beacon of success.
eve has too many safe zones. i like zero safe zones and a havoc filled starter area. also i dislike absolute full drop, i like looting other players, but i like to have some sort of protection system i can manage if i play intelligently without mistakes for my own gear. of course these items still have value to other players if lost, and it seems there are always people who end up dropping valuable armor pieces even with the safety system, either due to the slight randomness and not full precaution or because of certain circumstances
also im sick of people saying, WoW does tons of business, every game needs to copy wow. guess what also does a lot of business, McDonalds. but i dont want every restaurant and chef out there saying, We need to exactly copy McDonalds!!!
One of the many, but I believe it to be the largest, reasons for EVE's success, as opposed to other open world PvP titles, is what the above poster just railed against. EVE has the largest number of areas "safe" from PvP, in regards to other games of similar stature. A single player can play the game for YEARS and never need to leave the safety of high-sec space.
In fact, last time I checked the numbers, it was reported that somewhere in the ballpark of HALF of all EVE players never, EVER, leave high-sec space. 50%. In other words, half of all people who play EVE aren't PvPers. The next reported figure was that of the half of players who do report leaving high-sec space, half of them only do so for short periods. Most of them reporting outings to only low-sec areas, with numbers even lower saying they actually go into null-sec. In other words, only one-fourth of all EVE players both "live and work" in null sec-space. Only 25% of all EVE players actually play the game as a full-fledged, no holds barred, hardcore, in your face PvPer.
Like I said, it has been a long time since I reviewed those numbers and recent data could show a marked difference in those statistics. What do I take away from those numbers? EVE is not as popular for PvP as people make it out to be, when they try to use it as an example of a successful PvP game.
I'll respond just because everyone else went off on a tangent: I've thought about it too, not being bound to a single avatar but either having a team that gets replenished, or taking on apprentices to replace the fallen avatar. A slightly off example might be the samurai game of around 2000 Throne of darkness that was like diablo, and you had a team of 7 or so chars that you could summon.
none incoming games cant replace Eve in next 10 years
Eve is something special & unique in mmo genre
I have no idea why none copied Eve? perfect mmorpg concept !
maybe it is not about game, maybe it is all about players or it is just New Eden Universe !
Yeah, not sure EvE can even be simply copied.
Maybe the structures that make it so unique and great have to slowly evolve in a growing game and wouldn't replicate in a big launch AAA style setup with a big scale goldrush mentality.
Eve starting out relatively small/niche is probably one of it's strengths and the reason why it is like it is.
My opinion is that this is very much true. EvE grew into it's success it's didn't spring to it on a single day. It struggled for many years as a niche game with dev's that really fought to make it grow. I'm not sure a investor or even crowd funded game can operate this way as the expectations for a quick return are just to great and if it doesn't have a home run launch people are more willing to just cut their loses and move on rather than stick with the title.
I thought the reason why EVE PvP so famous is that players can take coffee break in the middle of PvP and when they come back their ship still there firing at enemy. or maybe i just read or saw some old video/article.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
I have a question: How big is EVE, compare Eve's safe area's to safe area's in PVP oriented "land played" MMO's?
I think (yet not sure) that to "transelate" EVE's gameplay both PVP and it's PVE you need to have a very hugh none-space MMORPG. And just feel most are just to small to achieve the same thing EVE achieves due to EVE being set in space.
Speaking only for myself...and I don't play EvE... is that I have plenty of interest in sandbox style games but little interest if FFA full loot PvP games. Too often FFA games seem to fall into the trap of murder/psycopath simulators. That is because the same sort of societal pressures that work in real society...or even our logical fantasy/sci-fi equivalents, the type you might actualy expect coming out of a novel or D&D campaign don't really apply very well in MMO's.
Unless you are playing in a completely dystopean setting....and are purposefully signing up to do that. It is very unlikely that most people you meet will kill and/or rob you. Most people you meet will be generaly honest citizens of whatever society they are a member of and can be expected to behave within the constraints of such. Yes, you might encounter the occasional criminal, traitor or miscreant....but they are few and far between and it's often possible to have some expectation of who these individuals might be. You function as a part of society and tend to have built in allies. Your society might be at war with another society....but you have some ready expectation of who those individuals might be, why you are fighting them and where and when they might be encounter (thus faction based PvP doesn't suffer from the same sort of hits). When you travel out into the wilds, out into dangerous lands, you do so with the foreknowledge and full expectation of danger at any turn.
This is where FFA PvP games tend to break down. Most people don't want to ALWAYS have to be on guard, to never be able to trust ANYONE, to never have anyone that you know you can work with and be supported by. To be betrayed, slain and robbed for seemingly no reason. Even in most FPS games where you are constantly fighting....the popular ones are always team vs another. In an MMO, you don't want the kind of constant vigilance, alertness and pace that you do from a FPS game that you might only play for an hour or so.....you want down time, slow time, time where you can relax a bit in addition to the alert times of danger.....and when you do experience danger, you want some sense that you are not completely alone, that you have others interested in watching your back for you and working toward the same goal.
One of the many things that makes EvE work is travel. Generally the more dangerous route, or area, the more ISK can be made be it resources, missions or whatever. Risk vs reward.
Player politics are also a major part of the game. Thats not something a dev can create. They can only add the tools, its up to the players to make that part of the game a success.
Agree both your points are strong suits in EVE's favor.
As for politics would you consider the success of this aspect might have something to do with the fact that people are able to create more than one ship, and are generally playing for the purpose of improving their fleet as a whole, versus I just have this one ship and I want to make it the biggest and baddest in the galaxy? Does it make the game less player centric and more conducive to game politics?
I think if you are simply focused on one character, it merely becomes mainly about that character and not what is happening in the world.
In EVE you are creating characters (ships) and improving them in order to be able to influence the world around you.
Your ship in EVE is a consumable. I don't think that anyone viewing their ships as characters would last very long in EVE. Your character is, well... your character. It carries far more weight than any ship or fleet of ships will ever carry, because your reputation is important. When big problems needed a mediator, people turned to Vile Rat. When people are doing a multi-billion ISK trade, they turn to people like Chribba for a trustworthy middleman and secure transactions. Sending out a fleet, you assign fleet commanders that have proven themselves in combat.
The fact that EVE is so player-centric is what makes the politics work. The leaders on various levels regularly interact with each other not only in game but in various voice and text chat channels. When doing so on a regular basis, there is a certain connection that becomes more real and personal than any ship, fleet of ships, or avatar can create. That's where the politics plays out - on the forums, in the propaganda videos, at the alliance summits. Between the players.
A certain portion of EVE's politics is due to the infrastructure that constantly evolves to support it, but the heart of it is the interactive, creative and passionate gamers that make up the amazing EVE community. Actually, most of the in-game tools are for resolving issues when player politics and diplomacy fails.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The way you describe Eve with disposable ships, almost comes close to a RTS (realtime strategy). I agree that Eve is unique. I've played it and in the end I missed the "connection" with my avatar. (believe you can now walk around on bases?) I believe that's the reason why most developers did not copy it. Also due to space travel, portals, wormholes, etc, the game could camouflage that every sector is its own instance. ( or did someone spend years and years travelling through normal space to a new sector?) Another detail why they might not copy it, is that pvp isn't that fast paced, nor is there any manual targeting. You select a target and the shipscomputer takes over. You only have to trigger some special abilities and adjust course, but the control of your ship doesn't create high stress on server traffic. Other developers would have to also get some kind of vessel, machine like setting. Guess what? We all would scream COPYCATS......
Comments
There are a few facts you need to understand about EVE-Online. For starters, EVE ain't all that popular in the sense that for a game that's always talked about, you'll rarely see 70K people online (Haven't played since 2011, having played since 2004, and out of those 70K you need to account for the crap load of multi clients, botters, scammers) at once and the game has been running for 10+ years. Also you need to remember that sandbox = niche, so it doesn't please all that many people to play in a open world FFA PvP. If it did, CCP wouldn't of bothered with Dust 514 since EVE would of had a few hundred K's online at once.
Anyway, you got Star Citizen and Novus Aeterno that will most likely start the down fall of EVE-Online and force CCP on putting EVE-Online F2P. It's a shame though, CCP has been at it for 10 years on EVE-Online and they always made it easier for grieffers to piss people off and scamming is part of the game. Oh well it's their bad, since we got 2 awesome games coming in to replace EVE, but it will most likely happen in 2015. Novus Aeterno is suppose to enter Alpha in April 2014 and if everything goes to plan, Beta at the end of 2014. Where as Star Citizen, we might see it in Alpha by mid way / Q3 2014.
none incoming games cant replace Eve in next 10 years
Eve is something special & unique in mmo genre
I have no idea why none copied Eve? perfect mmorpg concept !
maybe it is not about game, maybe it is all about players or it is just New Eden Universe !
Played Eve for 5 years and Perpetuum for 2 years (still playing) . My opinion is Perpetuum's PvP is far superior to Eve's PvP in every way. The subs dont reflect this. odd
Yeah, not sure EvE can even be simply copied.
Maybe the structures that make it so unique and great have to slowly evolve in a growing game and wouldn't replicate in a big launch AAA style setup with a big scale goldrush mentality.
Eve starting out relatively small/niche is probably one of it's strengths and the reason why it is like it is.
How do you measure success? By how long the game has been running? In that case UO is still running and still have open world PvP, and was also produced before Eve...
And they don't work well b/c since the beginning of MMO's if you give full PvP will full Loot you will ultimately for some unknown reason have people who get upset when they lose a virtual item, or all of them to the point that they quit, or rage quit. Also there tend to be a larger amount of PK's as apposed to Anti PK's in these games so defending the innocent gets hard.
eve has too many safe zones. i like zero safe zones and a havoc filled starter area. also i dislike absolute full drop, i like looting other players, but i like to have some sort of protection system i can manage if i play intelligently without mistakes for my own gear. of course these items still have value to other players if lost, and it seems there are always people who end up dropping valuable armor pieces even with the safety system, either due to the slight randomness and not full precaution or because of certain circumstances
also im sick of people saying, WoW does tons of business, every game needs to copy wow. guess what also does a lot of business, McDonalds. but i dont want every restaurant and chef out there saying, We need to exactly copy McDonalds!!!
One of the many, but I believe it to be the largest, reasons for EVE's success, as opposed to other open world PvP titles, is what the above poster just railed against. EVE has the largest number of areas "safe" from PvP, in regards to other games of similar stature. A single player can play the game for YEARS and never need to leave the safety of high-sec space.
In fact, last time I checked the numbers, it was reported that somewhere in the ballpark of HALF of all EVE players never, EVER, leave high-sec space. 50%. In other words, half of all people who play EVE aren't PvPers. The next reported figure was that of the half of players who do report leaving high-sec space, half of them only do so for short periods. Most of them reporting outings to only low-sec areas, with numbers even lower saying they actually go into null-sec. In other words, only one-fourth of all EVE players both "live and work" in null sec-space. Only 25% of all EVE players actually play the game as a full-fledged, no holds barred, hardcore, in your face PvPer.
Like I said, it has been a long time since I reviewed those numbers and recent data could show a marked difference in those statistics. What do I take away from those numbers? EVE is not as popular for PvP as people make it out to be, when they try to use it as an example of a successful PvP game.
My opinion is that this is very much true. EvE grew into it's success it's didn't spring to it on a single day. It struggled for many years as a niche game with dev's that really fought to make it grow. I'm not sure a investor or even crowd funded game can operate this way as the expectations for a quick return are just to great and if it doesn't have a home run launch people are more willing to just cut their loses and move on rather than stick with the title.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
I have a question: How big is EVE, compare Eve's safe area's to safe area's in PVP oriented "land played" MMO's?
I think (yet not sure) that to "transelate" EVE's gameplay both PVP and it's PVE you need to have a very hugh none-space MMORPG. And just feel most are just to small to achieve the same thing EVE achieves due to EVE being set in space.
Speaking only for myself...and I don't play EvE... is that I have plenty of interest in sandbox style games but little interest if FFA full loot PvP games. Too often FFA games seem to fall into the trap of murder/psycopath simulators. That is because the same sort of societal pressures that work in real society...or even our logical fantasy/sci-fi equivalents, the type you might actualy expect coming out of a novel or D&D campaign don't really apply very well in MMO's.
Unless you are playing in a completely dystopean setting....and are purposefully signing up to do that. It is very unlikely that most people you meet will kill and/or rob you. Most people you meet will be generaly honest citizens of whatever society they are a member of and can be expected to behave within the constraints of such. Yes, you might encounter the occasional criminal, traitor or miscreant....but they are few and far between and it's often possible to have some expectation of who these individuals might be. You function as a part of society and tend to have built in allies. Your society might be at war with another society....but you have some ready expectation of who those individuals might be, why you are fighting them and where and when they might be encounter (thus faction based PvP doesn't suffer from the same sort of hits). When you travel out into the wilds, out into dangerous lands, you do so with the foreknowledge and full expectation of danger at any turn.
This is where FFA PvP games tend to break down. Most people don't want to ALWAYS have to be on guard, to never be able to trust ANYONE, to never have anyone that you know you can work with and be supported by. To be betrayed, slain and robbed for seemingly no reason. Even in most FPS games where you are constantly fighting....the popular ones are always team vs another. In an MMO, you don't want the kind of constant vigilance, alertness and pace that you do from a FPS game that you might only play for an hour or so.....you want down time, slow time, time where you can relax a bit in addition to the alert times of danger.....and when you do experience danger, you want some sense that you are not completely alone, that you have others interested in watching your back for you and working toward the same goal.
Your ship in EVE is a consumable. I don't think that anyone viewing their ships as characters would last very long in EVE. Your character is, well... your character. It carries far more weight than any ship or fleet of ships will ever carry, because your reputation is important. When big problems needed a mediator, people turned to Vile Rat. When people are doing a multi-billion ISK trade, they turn to people like Chribba for a trustworthy middleman and secure transactions. Sending out a fleet, you assign fleet commanders that have proven themselves in combat.
The fact that EVE is so player-centric is what makes the politics work. The leaders on various levels regularly interact with each other not only in game but in various voice and text chat channels. When doing so on a regular basis, there is a certain connection that becomes more real and personal than any ship, fleet of ships, or avatar can create. That's where the politics plays out - on the forums, in the propaganda videos, at the alliance summits. Between the players.
A certain portion of EVE's politics is due to the infrastructure that constantly evolves to support it, but the heart of it is the interactive, creative and passionate gamers that make up the amazing EVE community. Actually, most of the in-game tools are for resolving issues when player politics and diplomacy fails.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The way you describe Eve with disposable ships, almost comes close to a RTS (realtime strategy). I agree that Eve is unique. I've played it and in the end I missed the "connection" with my avatar. (believe you can now walk around on bases?) I believe that's the reason why most developers did not copy it. Also due to space travel, portals, wormholes, etc, the game could camouflage that every sector is its own instance. ( or did someone spend years and years travelling through normal space to a new sector?) Another detail why they might not copy it, is that pvp isn't that fast paced, nor is there any manual targeting. You select a target and the shipscomputer takes over. You only have to trigger some special abilities and adjust course, but the control of your ship doesn't create high stress on server traffic. Other developers would have to also get some kind of vessel, machine like setting. Guess what? We all would scream COPYCATS......