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Why don't publishers and gaming companies just conform to what we like?
Rockniss
Member Posts: 1,034
i was brownsing the swtor site just now. (Keep in mind I have had about a twelve pack of sam adams winter lager since 630 and its 930) at any rate, when i went to the website, its highlighted in cartel coin pricing tiers, it made me think why don't these publishers, devs, companies... yada yada yada just conform to the pricing models we enjoy, that being buy to play and sub? i went to the site and even half in the bag, it was a total turn off.
Comments
I'll bite.
Two famous Americans have once said, “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” and ,“People don't know what they want until you show it to them.” Henry Ford being one, and Steve Jobs the other.
The MMO forum community generally consists of people who can articulate what they like and don't like. They enjoy playing armchair developer because it's easy to assume an MMO goes from concept to production to release within a few weeks/months of a great idea! Most armchair developers have little to no business sense yet insist they know how the business is run because they took a college course and/or ran a guild and assume all businesses follow the same model.
On the other hand, I share the same frustration with the rest of the MMO community. Developers have been playing it too safe and there's really little to no value in playing glorified WOW-clones. If you want WOW, play WOW. And that's what many people choose to do.
How many games/posts can you identify "WOW-killer" over the past few years and realize that the hype pre-launch never matches the post-launch sentiment towards the game. Look at the marketing terms used pre-launch, then look at the features of the game upon launch. It's the same old junk with a fresh coat of paint designed to trick you into purchasing a box / sub for a couple months / or heaven forbid pouring money into a game pre-launch via kickstarter promotions or promises of extra in-game rewards/recognition for supporting the game pre-launch.
Quite simply, the MMO community doesn't really understand what it wants. They think they do, but all they really know is to ask for is faster horses. This comes in the form of:
- Sandbox, because Themeparks encourage the same old vertical progression treadmill
- No Sandbox, because horizontal progression doesn't reward the unemployed guy willing to marathon for days on end for phat lewt
- Open World PVP including Full Loot PVP, because risk should be rewarded
- No Open World PVP (or without consent), because nobody wants to be trolled/camped
- Dungeon Finder, because the demographic has matured and cannot spend hours waiting for a group
- No Dungeon Finder, because it ruins the sense of community
- F2P, because all games should be free and we should sample the entire product before we decide we're willing to pay for it
- Subscription only, because it'll preserve the community by keeping the F2P'ing riff-raff out and support continued content development
- B2P, because a hybrid model worked for one franchise and therefore all games should hop on the bandwagon
- No Cash Shop, because it's pay to win
- Cash Shop, because I like pretty mounts and other cosmetic items. Plus it gives me an opportunity to support the devs
The MMO community doesn't know what it wants. I understand everyone has a different flavor, but the desires of the MMO community shift like a huge pendulum with every passing fad. It's a total waste of time to listen to someone who will latch onto the next "revolutionary" idea before their hot pocket turns room temperature.
FYI I'm not trolling. I'm fully aware than WOW-clones can be a heated term since Everquest II was the first MMO made. My apologies to the EQ fans out there.
because there is no "we".
They do "conform" to what i like from time to time.
You know, no one owes you a MMO you like. It is a free market. Devs are free to cater to whatever audience, and you are free to ignore them.
The notion of a MMO "community" is problematic if you discuss it as if it has a mind.
I know what i want. I am quite sure you know what you want to. But there is no such thing as a single mmo "community" that has a consistent preference. Different players want different things.
And devs find an audience, which is a subset of the mmo "community" .. they have no obligation to make everyone happy. And even if they want to, they can't.
No bitchers.
It is easier to cater to the lowest common denominator and do well from a business standpoint versus develop and attempt to maintain a high standard, and then hope your niche carries you through the test of time (ie EVE).
Wildstar, Archeage, Elder Scrolls, and Everquest Next won't be any different. They may claim it'll be so, and heck maybe it'll look like it. Wait until launch.
I wish I were wrong, but I know better.
Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me two to three times a year for the past six years...
...ah, I'm not worried about it, there's always another WOW-killer in the works.
To be blunt, I think there is a popular theory circulating that gamers are morons and don't know what's good for us.
Remember back in the old days there was a saying, 'The customer is always right.' Well someone found some exceptions to that rule and amended it to, 'The customer is never right.'
That's why I don't shed too many tears when a company goes belly up. Failure in this instance is probably the quickest way to success.
Most of the fresh, innovative and exciting ideas are coming out of indie houses now. I think indie companies will be the savior of gaming.
If someone ask me "what would you like to pay for product X", what do you think i would say.
If i have no shame i´d ofc say... 0... A nice round number.
If i have some kind of shame in me i would perhaps put forth a dollar or three.
That is why developers have to listen to numbers and % rather then customers.
Beyond that i agree with the whole "we" as a myth... Heck just make a simple poll with a 5 point scale with one end being FF PvP and the other Strict PvE... Not only will you get people all along the range you will get a number of "kind" suggestions why your poll and you your self is bad for humanity. Now imagine a developer trying to make a game that make all those people happy.... That is a solid way to build a nervous breakdown and not much else.
This have been a good conversation
If there is no "we" then why even bother playing MMO's in the first place? Such a childish attitude and why we are getting such crappy releases in the first place. "A real professional will make you look good, yet you'll be unaware on how stupid you just looked" , and I'll explain below ...
Now on to the OP, the companies won't conform because why should they bother when everyone is so gullible and throwing money at them without even trying? I mean c'mon now, you got a crap load of idiots out there putting money on to a cash shop on a game still in Alpha and that same company will keep that project on hold and start on a new project that will attract even more idiots to put money on to the 2nd project with a cash shop. So yeah, good luck with that "conform" part. Companies aren't dumb, they simply know how to play with a stupid community. That's why I'm done with pre orders / kick starters and other such bull. I'll start looking in to a MMO once it's finished and released. And by the looks of it, I won't be playing any MMO's in 2014.
A MMORPG project used to be about Pride and Dedication, working with a community on creating the best possible game where people can log in, chat with friends and have a good time hunting together. WTF happened with the MMORPG industry? Why is it all about stealing peoples money via a cash shop? Why pre orders to have Alpha / Beta access? Why release a half finish game to attract a huge player base that will leave 2-3 months later because they couldn't live up to expectations? The answer is simple : Money. And we can thank EA and Nexon for the trend we now have today. Makes NCSoft botting history a nice bed time story. What I really want is not for a MMO to kill WoW, I simply want a company with Pride and Dedication capable of creating a great community MMO where it isn't "Me,Myself and I'.
That has to be one of the best point/counter point lists I have seen. Great post.
In general it is because as pointed out you ask 100 people what they want you will get 100 different responses.
Joshua Halls
Co Owner-Lead Programmer The Repopulation
Who says we play the same MMOs? In fact, precisely because there is no "we", there are many different MMOs.
Fair enough, although the intention wasn't to praise his perceived genius. It was to address his business acumen... regardless of whether or not you agree with his style.
I am bored out of my mind with the current state of MMOs. I've played FFXI for years until they ruined it by attempting to cater to casual players who are willing to run treadmills vs focus on skill / coordination (not that it was difficult but it offered more challenge than most MMOs could ever dream of).
FFXI, FFXIV, WOW, Rift, SWTOR, GW2, etc. The list goes on and on.
I've resorted to tabletop gaming aka Warhammer. My ideal MMO has the following:
- The ability to pick up and play as much or as little as you want. There are things for people to do with only 15 minutes to 5 hours.
- Rewards should be skill/merit-based, and not catered to accommodate the guy who is unemployed and can spend 18 hours straight in front of the keyboard. In other words, I prefer a difficult challenge (and failing many times) and receive a reward and/or sense of accomplish for winning vs grinding the same thing repeatedly to earn tokens or pray the low drop rate works in my favor this time.
- In an ideal world, a fully leveled/skilled player is stronger than a new player, but doesn't completely trivialize any new player. This way, new players don't feel as if they're forced to race to the level cap in order to experience content. However, there should be a noticeable difference but not if a veteran is a God amongst Ants. That is the current state of MMOs and it's a shame because more than half of the game worlds are irrelevant once you hit level cap as a result.
- Quests to feel like real quests. Not busywork for the sake of giving you something to do. I would much rather have one high quality, well-written questline that serves an important purpose than the same standard quest types:
- Kill X of _____
- Pick up X of _____ represented by the glowing objects on the ground
- etc
- A means to accommodate playstyles other than just killing things. Such as sneaking into a lair to grab treasure (hopefully unnoticed).
- No random loot from things that don't make any sense. Pigs shouldn't drop suits of armor. Orcs carrying axes should probably drop their axe. Holy cow, someone help me put up a kickstarter. I just revolutionized the MMO scene!
The problem is that business' cater sales based on what people are willing to spend money on... not based on what what people enjoy. If you want them to cater to you, you have to be willing to outspend the competition.
If you want them to cater to subs, start spending 50, 100, 500, 1k a month on subs. In return, they will make more sub based models for you to spend money on.
Probably one of the best explanations that I've read in recent years. I don't know that I could've said this any better myself.
I'll just say 'amen' and/or 'I concur'.
Because what you like is not what I like.
It boils my blood when people talk smack about Neverwinter but it has everything I want and need out of an MMO right now and apparently no one else on this site likes it. Thank god there is diversity because I wouldn't have to play trainwrecks like FFXIV or WoW Clone #899,875
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Let's not demonize someone's right to make a living. After all, they are running a business. They aren't developing games for charity's sake.
On the other hand, there is a fine balance between charging a fair price for product and exploitation. I don't care about a product launching as P2P, B2P, or F2P. However, I wish companies would focus on consistency and improving overall quality of product in an effort to attract subs vs starting at B2P/P2P for the initial launch...wait for subs to drop off dramatically, and revitalize the population by relaunching as F2P in a final attempt at a cash grab.
The big issue is the average MMO being launched doesn't have the same longevity as MMOs of the past, from a developer standpoint. The studio is typically working on the next big project towards release of the MMO. The easy money is made from the up-front box purchases and subs from all the hype surrounding a new MMO. It's too much work and risk to continue to pour the same amount of resources after launch. The reward is minimal at best.
Developers and players would be more aligned if we lived in a utopian society where money was nonexistent.
Personally, I think the genre has been too accommodative of content locusts that blast through everything within a week or two, then bitch and moan about having nothing to do. The population of such players is small but they typically hold a significant influence within their respective communities. It's like having the average player hear all about the critic reviews (whether they wanted to hear it or not) before they had an opportunity to see the movie/show they've been waiting a long time to finally see.
Don't get me wrong, I'd gladly pay a sub fee well above the current market price if it's worth it. Problem is, my MMO cherry has already been popped and everything (for better or for worse) will be compared against my first MMO with rose-tinted glasses. This is an unfortunate truth we all have to deal with. Nothing will compare against our first. Although if you had convinced a friend to play your first MMO with you for nostalgia's sake, they'd tell you it most likely sucks. So developers are damned if they do, and damned if they don't.
They do put out what the majority of people in their target market like. You are not their target market. The people on MMORPG.com are not their target market. There are millions of people out there worldwide playing these games. That is their target market, not people sitting around on a forum whining.
You almost certainly do not represent a sizable percentage of the overall MMO marketplace. That's why they don't make games for you.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I like your first post in this thread btw.
Now I have to ask about the highlighted because it is interesting, you mention MMORPGs having longevity back then, I think personally due to the fact that say there are so many MMORPGs currently, longevity no matter how good the MMORPG is, won't be as apparent due to the fact there are so many.
I think if the options of MMORPGs where less it'd be easier to say that there is longevity, and it's a shame, I also believe the time of the release has an effect, it's not long until Wildstar and TESO come out, and both are subs, people love the next new thing, so then it's choice(I be damn if someone things the average gamer would pay 30+ dollars a month just to play two+ games), so that will shorten the longevity of the current MMORPGs once again. AAA MMORPGs release more frequently, so what I'm getting at is, MMORPGs can very well be made with longevity in mind, yet due to the higher production of MMORPGs, it's taking that away. In the end I believe these days the only type of MMORPGs that will have longevity are niche ones.
Just my little two cents, I'm not disagreeing with you but just putting a bit extra on what I believe another reason of longevity issues are.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.