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MMO's that got it right
LittleBoot
Member Posts: 326
This is purely my opinion; but I am about to list the features from other games that I would like to see in my ideal mmo. These are the features that I think are the best I have seen in the genre: -
Levelling experience
For me WOW vanilla had the levelling arc just right. That said I like that GW1 could be played for huge periods of time at the level cap without the enjoyment diminishing one iota. In reality my preference would probably be for a skill based system like Eve/ TSW.
I also want to see alternative advancement (outside of traditional levels) which imo has never been utilised as fully as it could be; but examples would include elites skills/ exploration/ aesthetic items as per GW1 and vehicle races/ time trials etc. as per Defiance.
The World
No mmo's have really got this right for me. I would like to see something like Skyrim; large, open and persistent (as far as the tech will allow). EQ 2 and WOW vanilla probably came closest to creating a populated open world.
I dislike excessive use of fast travel as it gives me a real feeling of disconnect with the world.
Instances
DDO hands down for this. Dungeons with traps/ secret areas/ puzzles.
Combat
Defiance got a lot wrong but the combat is superb. Failing that something a little like DCUO.
Customization
In terms of skill trees I think that PoE and TSW got this bang on; they both had plenty of options. However, I also liked the hotbar limitations in GW1. I also think that some form of specialization (whether the trinity or another alternative) is necessary; people need a purpose within a group rather than everyone being a Jack-of-all, master-of-none.
In terms of character aesthetics I simply want plenty of options and cosmetic slots. I dislike any game that heavily limits my character's appearance or clothing.
Story/ Lore
I am more interested in having a world to play in than a trail of breadcrumbs to follow through a strictly prescribed series of cutscenes. Again, no mmo has really got this right for me. Scripted stories are necessary but the removal of any freedom in terms of the order in which a player experiences a game is detrimental. Again I would like to see something akin to Skyrim.
In terms of lore/ setting I dislike the excessive use of magic prevalent in most mmo's; it is lazy game design as it is too often used as a substitute for any intelligent exposition.
That's it for the moment. Any thoughts?
Comments
While I am still waiting for an MMORPG to "Get it right", for my own pleasure, City of Heroes has come the closest.
Leveling experience
CoH: I liked the "debt system" they used. When a player lost a fight, they incurred a debt that needed to be worked off (at 1/2 XP gain) before full XP was again available. I also had fun with EQ's corpse runs at the time, though the XP loss sucked. Also in EQ, leveling without grouping was bad.
The World
I am torn between EQ and WoW. EQ had defined zone lines while WoW had a more open world with Mob aggro limits. Both had good and bad aspects. I am unsure which I prefer. I never played SW:G or UO but many have said things about those 2 worlds that intrigue me
Instances
City of Heroes. Instances were only used for some "missions" (quests) and they were created with grouping and playing with friends in mind, but still usually solo-able. Cryptic/Paragon Studios had the instances "adjust" to whatever size of group or difficulty the players chose.
Combat
EQ. The combat was much more relaxed. It also lasted longer and made use of skills/abilities/spells other than how much damage per second a player did. CoH is a close second.
Customization
Depends what you are seeing as customization.
- Character Creation is hands down CoH.
- Character Development, CoH was pretty good but could have been a little better. I like Morrowind's character development the best and would love to see that in an MMORPG.
- World Customization I have not experienced yet. Nothing like WURM or what EQ:N is proposing. I do not know if I seek that level of customization. It sounds fun, but I am just not sure
Story/ Lore
Not much of a "Story" seeker, but lore is a great thing. I play single player games for story. Lore-wise, though, EQ, CoH, and WoW all had great lore in them. I am not one who actively seeks it out, but having it in place makes the game "feel" deeper.
How's that?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "Get it Right". Honestly I've managed to have fun in just about every MMO I've tried simply because of the people I play with and find in the game. With that said, I can tell you what my favorites were in each category you listed.
Leveling Experience - I think City of Heroes/City of Villains was the best leveling system I've ever been involved with. As mentioned before the "Debt" system that penalized you for dieing was painful but not overly punitive. Also it was set up to where you could solo efficiently when you were alone, but you could also group up and get bonuses that made it go faster. The leveling curve still took time to get through, but the content was enjoyable so it didn't feel like grinding.
The World - World of Warcraft probably was the world I enjoyed the most due to size and variety of environment. WoW contained one of my all time favorite zones in any MMO (Darkshire) and back during Vanilla WoW when I played it took time to get around. I also liked how the devs had hidden little pop culture references in the landscape as well. If you took time to notice the world it was really well constructed.
Instances - City of Heroes/City of Villains was most enjoyable to me. Age of Wushu isn't too bad either.
Combat - This is a tough one for me. Pure "Turn Based" MMORPG combat I'd have to say the best I played was Dark Age of Camelot. The game was full of positional and reactive styles that made you pay attention during the fight, rather than just standing there spamming your best move over and over. CoH/CoV had a fun combat system as well. One that didn't have TAB targeting and was Real Time as opposed to Turn Based that I really enjoyed for a short time was Neverwinter Nights and I still get a kick out of Planetside 2. World of Tanks was fun as well. I'm not sure if that counts as an MMO though.
Customization - Character Creation was CoX hands down. Blew everything else away. Star Trek Online was decent in this area as well. Customization of UI would have to be WoW because they allowed people to mod the UI. One of my all time favorite mods was "Click" which bound a heal spell to your left mouse button so when you selected someone with your mouse on your healer helper it also cast the spell. That was nifty. Star Wars the Old Republic had built in customizable UI which was fun too.
Story/Lore - Dark Age of Camelot won this category for me. Three realms each with their own feel and back story. Lore permeated the game in a way I've never seen it permeate any other game.
Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising.
For me its several things
The World
Vanguard to me had the best world size I've ever seen in an mmo. I want to get lost again. You want to stick quick travel hubs everywhere fine, then make them count. Make them necessary because the world is so damn big that some may feel that you need them. But at the same time give rewards to explorers that don't use them. Rare mobs, rare events, rare -spectacles- things that happen like in nature like a rainbow that falls on a mountain after a passing sunshower that reveals a hidden cave and new adventure and new things to see. Sure for the casuals that want to pop around everything because "ooh well I have a family, blah blah blah" they can QT all they want, but for the guys with time like me give us the special goodies for taking time to see your world. Put in things like fields of flowers with rare butterflies that give boons to alchemical potions. Let me find a hidden underground cavern that leads to one of the best mining spots in the game. And don't tell me a goddamned thing about it. Show these things in your opening video, hint at them but put them there. No strategy guides allowed by the big companies. None till at least three months -after- the game content is released, at least nothing talking about every single place in the world itself. Lets see an evolution of the species AI system in The Saga of Ryzom. Lets see enemy AI upgraded and no more static mobs that just stand in one spot waiting to be killed. I want to see the return of roving mobs and roving special hard mobs that will sometimes stroll through early level areas. Make some enemies actually smarter than others. Beasts will chase you a ceratain way and stop. Humans will chase you across a zone especially if you just took something important from them for a quest. Personally I had no issue with level scaling ala GW2 while I know people say "oh but I don't feel like I am getting more powerful". Well this is an mmo RPG a world, people do not suddenly turn to easy beatable dust. We are making a world simulator, an experience, not an arcade game.
Put in things like Skyrim's hunting system, put in things like Vanguard's Diplomacy system and the ability to build boats and battle on them ala Arch Age, put in things like treasure hunting all the way through or exploring all the way through like Wildstar's paths systems. Put in alot of things that reward these systems and not just killing. Put in huge public area dungeons that need to be taken on otherwise they release monsters that can overwhelm an area and cause npcs to leave. Consequences are integral to the future of mmorpgs because without them you are just left with a treadmill.
Last but not least weather systems, real day and night. Personally I would bring back dangerous night monsters ala EQ in certain parts of the world. I'd bring back the need for light sources. I'd also have questing but make the system more like Skyrim where you don't need quests to level. There would just be world objectives that you can do like helping farmers, dancing in clubs, curing npc soldiers who are fighting a plague. See all of these things would build up faction and these would not be quests that are integral to the main story, because there is no "main story". There are several "main stories" for each race that you can choose to follow if you want to, and there is no "beating the game"as the game has no end just something else for you to turn your attention to.
World Design/Lore
More than European designed fantasy worlds. Give me a world more like the RIFTS pen and paper rpg, limitless possibilities, more cultures than strict European culture. Let me not only see your standard Knightly/Dwarven/Elven stuff but also a strong Asian race one based preferably more on Chinese culture than Japanese, a strong Sub Saharan African race influenced by Ethiopean culture which HAS castles just like any in Europe. Make a strong Arab culture that is seperate from the Sub Saharan African culture because they are NOT always the same and I'm tired of lazy devs making them the same thing. Personally I'd prefer a game to use European cultures besides the standard English derived culture. Lets use Roman and Greek for once with all the isms that come with using such cultures. Lets try something different and put in great lore behind ALL of these races. People mostly play humans, show diversity and watch a damn Youtube historical video for information on the cultures that you are not familiar with but there is plenty of information on. Personally I thought Vanguard got the race design down too with its multiple human races and seperate African and Arab races. Give great music that accompanies each area.
Class Design
I'd prefer a combination system akin to a mixture of the one in TSW and Cox, with the class diversity of Vanguard and launch version SWG,. Not every class should be a fighting class if you don't want it to be. Should there be dancers and beast tamers and farmers? Yes. I'd also add in a multiclass system ala FFXIV where I can have sub classes or sub class skills that are tied together. If I want to be a dancer that fights I sub class with Martial Artist which gives me bonuses to my dancing skills. Also due to the class synergies of Martial Artist and dancer I get bonuses to my Martial Arts skills making it easier to master the class since both have similar aspects to them. Classes and subclasses should interlock with each other. Make classes that can also synergy with other classes and their own ala combination spells/attacks like Chrono Trigger. Grouping should not only be a necessary part of the world it should be fostered and encouraged though synergistic group attacks that make people want to group up, and this includes outside dungeons. Your a soloer and those guys over there are soloers and you can't get pat that huge wandering monster over there alone? Well group up with those guys because if you do you all will get a synergistic attack that will help you take him down and it will be far easier to tackle him together so you can get past him and go back to soloing. But I'd throw in one more carrot. Groups that group together often with the same people or players that group together more often get an added "group synergy bonus" players that group alot get a "command bonus" which also adds to the synergistic attacks and adds bonuses to the "sidekick" system ala COX.
Yes we want you to group more often. You don't have to, but again you miss out on the goodies that groupers get as well as the ability to -Visibly- clear content quicker.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
MMO's a la carte :-)
I wish I could assemble my perfect mmo but I just don't believe it works that way.
Sound is for example often underestimated. Music, ambience sounds etc drastically changes the quality of a game.
I think each game has a "secret ingredient" that makes the game awesome, and it's probably not just an ingredient but a whole recipe.
Many mmos did something "right".
Until Wow came along no mmo gave us the feeling that many things were right. Wow had polish and tight game play in more areas than any other mmo before it. It was the best game for many and yet far from best for others.
What I feel is the essence of doing something right is the component of the game that is it's identifying feature. Many games nowhere near as popular as Wow are loved more even understanding they are far more flawed. There are very few old school EQ, UO and AC players who would say Wow was better. I loved AC yet today I couldn't possible get into the game anymore. At the time though the game offered something no game has offered me since: A massive and seamless world where the world itself was always the focus of the game. Most EQ players would also say few games offered the magic that game offered even though it is dated and had many flaws.
There is something about certain games that was simply done "right" but when picked a part it is hard to fathom how when those games were very flawed and basic by today's standards. Sometimes polishing something too much only rubs way the beauty of an object. Compare Wow of today vs Wow of old and you feel like Blizzard is now selling you their arcade-like UI instead of a game. They seem more proud of their battle.net systems than their games. There is no magic any more.
Just to add: One major element I noticed in games today is that new content seems to be just yet another grind to get through on top of the stuff you aready ground through. When I played AC new content was something new to experience included into the world you already played in. It was entirely a different feeling. It wasn't some new tier but the world simply got bigger and more dangerous. Perhaps the difference is subtle but is something missed by many of todays mmos.
You stay sassy!
Levelling experience
EQ1 a few expansions in where you still grinded off mobs but had buffed XP so it took months instead of over a year to hit max.The World
EQ classic, only boats and wizard/druid ports. Best most immersive D&D like world ever made.Instances
Hate em, only appropriate for a few raids imo. EQ Classic wins again
Combat
WoW from pure mechanics point of view, if we're factoring in class design then Vanguard. If FFXI had more combat abilities I would have chosen that, turn based MMO's are vastly underrated.
Customization
Although I'd have to agree with PoE I don't consider it even close to an MMO. I like the GW2 facial sliders, most games make it hard to create something attractive. WoW has many different options that are actually viable in raids, combined with smooth gameplay, inscriptions, gems, reforge, etc. No clear winner in this category.Story/ Lore
Can't comment, I never play MMO's for the story or lore.Ok here's what I think based on my limited experience of MMOs (WoW, GW2, Rift):
Levelling Experience: Guild Wars 2. It had me out in the world more than WoW or Rift because dungeons are generally more difficult for level-appropriate players and the map generally begs to be completed. The fact that you can level in World vs. World pvp was a huge plus for me.
The World: Guild Wars 2, see above about the map.
Instances: Tough to say. While the combat is excellent in GW2, and the instances are ok once you're a downleveled rared-out or better 80, I can't necessarily say I consider them better than instances in other games. But I do appreciate the fact that the maximum number of people you will ever need for a group is 5.
Combat: Guild Wars 2. Though I really need to give Tera a try, I've seen a few vids and I have it installed, just haven't found the time recently to play it.
Customization (class): Rift. You could have a hybrid class and be viable if you knew what you were doing. GW2 a close runner up because it uses a different system than the many talents + many skills, but it works too.
Customization (character): Guild Wars 2. May not be the most extensive one out there, but it's the one I like above the others I've played.
Story/Lore: I think WoW has some good lore behind it. But like the OP said, I would rather have a good world to explore rather than some breadcrumbs to follow, and I think GW2 has the best world out of the 3 games.
As far as excessive magic goes, I think yeah there is a lot of magical stuff in these games, but if they are in a high fantasy setting, I wouldn't expect too much otherwise. After all, many people at some point in their lives thought it might be cool to swing a wand and hit someone with a fireball (I know I have). And some people may not like them, but there is always room for the magic using melee heavy armor guy (or girl) in fantasy games (in my opinion, I just think it's cool as I always thought I'd like to be a paladin XD).
I think you are on to something here. Having played Ultima Online and Everquest a lot there were a lot of perceived problems, but they are what made the game rewarding to play. I could point out a bug in where people would fall off the boat when it zoned sometimes. It was fairly amusing to watch lol. I could point out the creativity of people in the game. For instance there were no solo classes in Everquest, but people found ways to solo and labeled every class in a certain way. Ways that the developers hadn't thought of at the time. There was kiting which was player invented. There were player hubs where people would meet up to trade items. This wasn't a place the developers designed to meet up and trade. It's a place the players just decided to gather for such a purpose. The holy trinity was created by players as the most efficient form of leveling in the game. Having a healer/tank/dps was something the developers hadn't thought of. It was something player created that people take for granted now and many want to get away from in other games.
Ultima Online was a pretty fun game, but PvP was a tuff thing for many people including myself. It made the game very challenging and gave it a lot of ups and downs. Having spent many hours gathering items it could be frustrating to have a group of people gank you and take it all away. Still it had a lot of neat ideas and was a true world representation. Probably the closest thing to living in the real world in medieval times that you could get.
Perhaps part of the problem with games today is that with all the experience devs have from previous games they now know how to better lock down games and avoid allowing players to come up with unintended scenarios. It's kind of bland to play a game when you know there is no way to think outside the box and come up with your own ideas. You are locked down to doing exactly what the developers want you to do.
Leveling experience? Either DAoC or CoH. CoH had straight up fun combat and grinding was never a thing. DAoC gave you a ton of options on how to level, and didn't hold your hand or pigeon hole you, while still encouraging social play and grouping.
PvP: Dark Age of Camelot. Easy.
Dungeons: EverQuest or Vanguard have the best designed dungeons to date.
Crafting: SWG, another easy one.
Non combat professions: SWG or UO.
Instances: Eh, these kind of suck for different reasons, but the least offensive ones were probably DDO.
Raids: Vanguard or DAoC. Leaning towards DAoC.
Combat: City of Heroes or Darkfall.
Levelling experience
Whilst not strictly levelling, has to be EvE, the fact that apart from maybe 3-5% deviation everyone learns abilities / skills at same time/speed So its not based on how much you can grind, how long per day you can play (ie favoring students etc) its just about how long you are active subs wiseThe World
This has to be LOTRO while closely followed by AoC - Both graphically beautiful games even today still look stunningInstances
Don't know what you mean, but if we base this off dungeons alone, then TBC WoW for me the most fun in any dungeon was early karizhan
Combat
AoC, love this combat, when it works it looks beautiful when responsive feels sexy
Customization
WoW for some reason very few games seem to latch upon WoW ability to have mods to allow you tailor how you view the game, how you look, how you feel, and help you
Story/ Lore
LOTRO How can this be anything else, from the greatest (arguably) ever fantasy novels, then again closely followed by AoC
This post is all my opinion, but I welcome debate on anything i have put, however, personal slander / name calling belongs in game
where of course you're welcome to call me names im often found lounging about in EvE online.
Use this code for 21days trial in eve online https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=d385aff2-794a-44a4-96f1-3967ccf6d720&action=buddy
Don't feel like writing much but since we're making lists
Levelling experience
EQ1, yes it was slow sometimes, but you learned how to slow down and get to know other people.
The World
Easily Vanguard for me. Vanguard feels like a massive actual world.
This would be the only choice I am sure of, it is so far ahead of other games.
Combat
EQ1 for me. I prefer the dynamics of trinity combat. I want combat to happen at a slow pace, I don't want hack & slash combat for MMO.
Customization
Vindictus or something, no idea.
Similar problem here. Just because the story is set in Middle Earth doesn't mean the writing is good. Most of the writing breaks the lore its based upon, and what little good lore there is, is locked away in instances and cinematics, which have no actual impact on the world.
Levelling experience
GW2. I love the open quest system (Events)
The World
GW2 (very large, there is much to discover)
WoW
Instances
TSW (very cool atmosphere)
SWTOR/WoW (but way too easy!)
Combat
GW2 (you have to move, no 50 skills - and that's good, great underwater battle!)
DCUO
Customization
Rift & TSW (good skill system)
GW2 (many armor dyeing and good character creation)
Story/ Lore
SWTOR (the personal story is great! the best I've ever seen!)
Getting it right is down to personal preference. One MMO that is perfect for you may not be someone else's cup of tea.
There is no Bill & Teds Wyld Stallyns Magical MMO that cures cancer, promotes world peace, and brings all humanity together in arms of brotherly love.
And even MMOs that are popular - that doesn't mean they got it right, even among people who play them they would suggest a lot of improvements (and those opinions often are at odds).
Get real...If you think WoW started the mmo.
....Being Banned from MMORPG's forums since 2010, for Trolling the Trolls!!!
I'll add my picks. This would be interesting to put in polls but kinda hard I guess.
Leveling
GW2. It's the only MMO in years where I was just out in the world having fun, rather than running from questhub to questhub trying to gain XP. I know you can argue Dynamic Events are quests without a questgiver, but the first time you do them, they felt natural.. If the heartquests were removed and replaced by more stuff happening, and there would be more focus on events that required zone-wide participation, it would be perfect for me.
World
I think a lot of them get this right. Seamless worlds are a plus for me, but I don't mind instancing some things off either. Perfect example of how not to do this is SWTOR. They instance off everything, but within every instance, the world feels completely lifeless. Nothing moves, its like playing on a bitmap image. It's one of the only games that I really had a problem with the world tho.
Instances
Sadly I haven't found any that do this right. I think the gear-check instances most themeparks opt for are terrible. I'd like something that requires a skillful group, isn't too gear depending, has a bit of a random element to increase replayability, and increases difficulty as a group finishes the instance.
Combat
For solo play, GW2 has fun combat, although it doesn't let you choose nearly enough skills.For group play its horribly chaotic and I prefer something more traditional like EQ/WOW. Maybe a mix of these 2 could be fun. Kinda like the combat Wildstar is opting for, except then in a game that isn't total ass. I don't like going 1-2-1-2-1-2-1-2-loot-repeat, but I don't like bouncing around like a bunny madly pressing every skill the second they come off cooldown either. Would be nice of companies took a look at singeplayer games here, figure out something that's fun to use, then make it work in groups. For me no MMO has perfect combat.
Customization
I agree on the votes for TSW, lots of options. I hate the themepark idea of 'You either spec damage, wind-damage, tree-damage or utility-damage'. I also really like GW1 here, just throw 150+ skills in my book and i get to pick 8-10 to use. For armor-customization, any game that launches without good character customization or armor dyeing really needs to stab itself in the eye and go away.
Story/Lore
None of them have done this right for me.
Leveling experience/story
These two sort of go together for me. Wow is the game I leveled the most characters but I think that had more to do with playing so long and not being interested in any other games. SWTOR had one of the most enjoyable stories for me so I'd say I enjoyed playing my sith warrior and sith sorc the most of all the characters I've leveled...no comment on what happens at max level...
World
Wow had the coolest world. It actually changed and had neat things going on. It was all static until wrath but it was still interesting.
Instances
Again wows dungeons were better than anything since. the older ones where really fun and I spent a lot of time doing them.
combat
Tera by far has the best combat I've played in an mmo. Tanks took a lot of skill to play well and you really felt like you were a tank, dps tended to die if they just stood there and did damage and healing was very involved. Defiance is a good shooter but that's about it. CoH had fun combat that was fairly unique but I still enjoyed tera's more. Tab targeting I just find boring now.
customization
Well, no game has every really come close to CoH. Tera would be my second just because of it's style but it was pretty limited as far as what you could do.
Levelling experience
I don't pay much attention to this, but I do prefer class systems over classless systems becauseThe World
I liked the adult-themed world of Age of Conan and the distinct style of Warhammer Online. Size isn't everything.Instances
Yup. I agree. DDO's instances were something special. They got pretty close to capturing a good dungeon crawl feel. The DM narrator was also a nice touch.
Combat & Customization
Can't do better than GW1. To describe it in one sentence: Team-based, real-time Magic the Gathering. The skill and class design is exceptional. You really get to design builds like you compile a deck in MTG.
Story/ Lore
As a fan of Forgotten Realms I am partial to Dungeons & Dragons Neverwinter eventhough I have not played the game and don't know how the lore is presented in it. The source material is good tho.
Also, a good story can only enhance the game.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
World art: AOC
Story: AOC Tortage
Combat: DDO
City - World integration: WoW Vanilla
Character art: WoW TBC
Engine: Shaiya before Nexon reworked it.
First part never bothered me. You're exaggerating it. There are some invisible walls and instances but that's something pretty much every MMO has and most are much worse about it than LOTRO. You can walk across most of the world using the main roads and not encounter many loading screens or invis. walls. I find that quite cool compared to other games.
Just because it's Tolkien-based doesn't make the writing good, true but I find the Turbine's writing team quite good and the story doesn't blatantly break the lore as I know it (sure some other things in the game do blatantly break lore but it's an MMO. You have to suspend your disbelief to a certain extent). We're comparing it to other MMOs here not books or movies, can you really think of one with a more interesting storyline in an MMO? I can't. (subjective I know)
It's mostly because it was their first MMO.
Many people who played MMOs before WoW recognize WoW never did much special, if anything. There are just less of us, because MMOs before WoW didn't have multi million dollar ad campaigns behind them.
Some people do genuinely like WoW though.
No... It's what most WoW clones have. Vanguard never had that issue, neither does Darkfall. Neither did Dark Age of Camelot. You can't even go down the Brandywine. You can't explore most zones because the game insta kills you unless you do the main quest to level 50. You see so many tunnels that stop you unless you have a quest, and it's incredibly immersion breaking "You do not have the right quest to enter here." Seriously? A game about Middle Earth and I can't see Middle Earth?
A few additional topics:
Crafting: easily SWG
Housing: easily EQ2
Presentation: easily WoW
Fluff: EQ2 and WoW
Raiding: EQ1, EQ2, and WoW are all great for different reasons