Originally posted by Ramonski7 Have any of you even have a clue how misplaced your hopes and dreams are to think KS will usher in a new era of games? Seriously look at this list of failed backings and tell me which of those you were just itchin to play...
I dont' think anyone has said anything about "hopes and dreams and ushering a new era of games" in this thread. Don't put words in people's mouths. I'll look over the thread again and apologize if I missed that but otherwise your comment is not well placed.
As far as those backings, they did fail because no one wanted to play them.
Doesn't that seem obvious?
edit: looked it over and nothing about hopes and dreams and more with a healthy dose of scepticism.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by Ramonski7 Have any of you even have a clue how misplaced your hopes and dreams are to think KS will usher in a new era of games? Seriously look at this list of failed backings and tell me which of those you were just itchin to play...
I dont' think anyone has said anything about "hopes and dreams and ushering a new era of games" in this thread. Don't put words in people's mouths. I'll look over the thread again and apologize if I missed that but otherwise your comment is not well placed.
As far as those backings, they did fail because no one wanted to play them.
Doesn't that seem obvious?
And guess what? That's just how it works now...you pay for what you want to play. But listening to the pessimist on this site and all you get is how dead the mmorpg genre is....go figure.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Just to be cynical for a moment. If I was going to swindle people out of their money, this would be the best way to do it. Who is going to get mad if you tell them a sad story about your family and health problems? He even mentions the health care system which is always something people get pissed about.
A really good con artist will always make you believe he's genuine. Not saying this is true, but someone who was trying to use kickstarter as a con could learn something from this guy. This is the way to do it, lots of communication. People will believe you if you sound honest and make them feel bad for you.
Gamasutra is a gaming industry website for developers. It is not (and I want to stress this) it is NOT an indie game developer website. Yet look at the headlines for today. nearly a full page of articles about indies.
So basically I pledged a while ago for this game Unwritten Passage that looked good. Today the guy sent an update explaining that he had run out of money because of health problems and....
But I’m not ready to completely call it quits and say that Unwritten Passage is dead forever. However, to say that the project as I pitched it is alive and well would be beyond naive. It would be dishonest. It lives on as my personal side project, something I hope to bring about on my own and through the help of talented friends when possible. And should it come to be I will do my best to deliver on my original promises… but I have to be honest. To many this is probably the end.
To his credit he did offer to try to refund the money and I'll ask for one so I'm not really angry but it is a good illustration of the fact the Kickstarting is not pre-ordering. Luckily it was one of the cheaper KS projects I've backed.
I don't understand why people like that even ask for a kick starter? At the stage he and his 3 mates were at they could of produced what they committed to working on it as a hobby while working their normal jobs. At that point they would have something to show and then ramp up scale. Pledging to get people started seems really dubious to me because its like committing to someone's idea with no idea of their ability to even produce something let alone any indication of their commitment/tenacity.
Here's the real failing in my view "we certainly can’t be held responsible for predicting a future of personal misfortunes" this just isn't true when you run or are responsible for a business. IT IS your duty of care to have a risk management plan and contingencies in place. If you set a business up that solely relies on yourself and have no contingencies in place for when something goes wrong you are fully responsible for the outcome. It just goes to show these indie style developers need a business manager as a priority and if their kick starter has no mention of one pledges are really are a donation.
All I can say is that the two I backed seem to be going along nicely.
Among the sleep and Camelot Unchained.
But I suppose the OP's example is "an example" of what might happen depending on the project.
Every vaporware game is going along nicely until suddenly it isn't. So you don't actually know until the game launches.
Such a pessimist.
Besides that's not true at all.
You are saying that every indy project has been managed well, no issues and suddenly they flop?
but your point about professionals failing can be well taken. If either of my two backed projects make it to completion I'll drop you a note.
Among the sleep is not ambitous, so I don't see any huge issues there. They constantly keep updates and they have released videos so I feel fine with that.
Camelot Unchained seems to be run by professionals which is the only reason I gave them money.
But sure "we'll see".
Camelot Unchained does have a better chance than most Kickstarter games, in part because they were able to show enough to get other funding sources rather than having to rely solely on people who don't know any better.
Even so, being able to show a bunch of pieces in a video is a long way away from having them polished and working properly, which is itself a long way away from having everything in place with all of the different features playing nicely with each other.
This thread is a good reminder that your $5000 dollar donation counts for nothing until the day of release. As the OP said they are not obligated to produce anything at all with your money. Legally they could take your donation and go buy hookers with it (at least in Nevada).
Kickstarter fans better hope Star Citizen pans out because it will set the pace for future kickstarters for years to come.
All I can say is that the two I backed seem to be going along nicely.
Among the sleep and Camelot Unchained.
But I suppose the OP's example is "an example" of what might happen depending on the project.
Every vaporware game is going along nicely until suddenly it isn't. So you don't actually know until the game launches.
Such a pessimist.
Besides that's not true at all.
You are saying that every indy project has been managed well, no issues and suddenly they flop?
but your point about professionals failing can be well taken. If either of my two backed projects make it to completion I'll drop you a note.
Among the sleep is not ambitous, so I don't see any huge issues there. They constantly keep updates and they have released videos so I feel fine with that.
Camelot Unchained seems to be run by professionals which is the only reason I gave them money.
But sure "we'll see".
Camelot Unchained does have a better chance than most Kickstarter games, in part because they were able to show enough to get other funding sources rather than having to rely solely on people who don't know any better.
Even so, being able to show a bunch of pieces in a video is a long way away from having them polished and working properly, which is itself a long way away from having everything in place with all of the different features playing nicely with each other.
It also pays to look into the person behind the project before you blindly throw money at it. In the case of Camelot Unchained, Mark Jacobs is a proven professional in the MMORPG market. You may not agree with his design choices, but it's highly unlikely that he's going to fail to deliver a game.
On the flip side, I had a bad experience with a Kickstarter project. It was a bluetooth game controller to be used with phones, tablets, etc. called the iControlPad2. Craig, the guy in charge of it, had a track record of dishonesty and not communicating with his customers. Had I looked into him ahead of time, I would have realized this and probably saved myself some money. Anyway, he released a bunch of updates about delays and parts not shipping and what not.. then eventually disappeared. Apparently he was in debt or something, and just pocketed most of the money. He appears to have fucked over some of the people collaborating with him on the project as well.
At the end of the day, I still believe in Kickstarter as a great tool for projects to be crowd funded. However, you need to do your research and not jump blindly into things.
Just thought that I'd make a post to say there's another update on the KS site. Most relevent part to this discussion we're having:
"Third, I just wanted to clear up something that seems to be in confusion. There have been some comments that express frustration that the game doesn't continue slowly in what time I can find. However, that's exactly what's going on right now. The game iscontinuing forward. However, the premise of the Kickstarter phase of the project was a short fulltime effort from me and my team (with monthly updates at the very least), and this is no longer true. This is why I felt it was the right thing to notify the backers.
However, since the project is still ongoing (if on life-support), means that opening the project or releasing the music/art, etc (as many have requested), is problematic."
So with this along with offering refunds I'd say he is handling the situation with class even if he should have budgeted better or asked for more money ( I know getting sick in the US can be very expensive. Makes me grateful to live in Canada....).
Not sure if the game will ever get made but if he does give me a refund I'll probably turn around and buy the game if he ever does get it out. It is a sobering thing though. If this can happen even with one of the "good guys" leading a project.
To his credit he did offer to try to refund the money and I'll ask for one so I'm not really angry but it is a good illustration of the fact the Kickstarting is not pre-ordering. Luckily it was one of the cheaper KS projects I've backed.
true but i've found it reliable for me thus far -- only thing ive personally experienced are 2-3 month delays
I pledged to over 90 KS projects in 2013, 70 of them got funded
already received a dozen of them, rest are due this year
A better example would be Jeff Katz and his wrestling promotion that he got kickstarted and then just faded. No news... No updates and no indications that he did anything but laugh his way to the bank and then spend the money in vegas with his one-armed investing consultant.... Heck he prolly spent it in Reno with said consultant.
To his credit he did offer to try to refund the money and I'll ask for one so I'm not really angry but it is a good illustration of the fact the Kickstarting is not pre-ordering. Luckily it was one of the cheaper KS projects I've backed.
true but i've found it reliable for me thus far -- only thing ive personally experienced are 2-3 month delays
I pledged to over 90 KS projects in 2013, 70 of them got funded
already received a dozen of them, rest are due this year
Having paid for 70 projects and received 12 so far is your idea of reliable? If I promise to invent cold fusion this year, is that considered reliable until the year is over? Until I announce that I've given up?
Still, it should be noted that not all types of Kickstarter projects are equally likely to deliver. Complex programming projects (not just games) are notorious for going over budget in both time and money, or delivering something that doesn't actually work right.
All I can say is that the two I backed seem to be going along nicely.
Among the sleep and Camelot Unchained.
But I suppose the OP's example is "an example" of what might happen depending on the project.
Every vaporware game is going along nicely until suddenly it isn't. So you don't actually know until the game launches.
Such a pessimist.
Besides that's not true at all.
You are saying that every indy project has been managed well, no issues and suddenly they flop?
but your point about professionals failing can be well taken. If either of my two backed projects make it to completion I'll drop you a note.
Among the sleep is not ambitous, so I don't see any huge issues there. They constantly keep updates and they have released videos so I feel fine with that.
Camelot Unchained seems to be run by professionals which is the only reason I gave them money.
But sure "we'll see".
Camelot Unchained does have a better chance than most Kickstarter games, in part because they were able to show enough to get other funding sources rather than having to rely solely on people who don't know any better.
Even so, being able to show a bunch of pieces in a video is a long way away from having them polished and working properly, which is itself a long way away from having everything in place with all of the different features playing nicely with each other.
I'm well aware of that but that is the "investor's" (or patron or whatever word you want to use) responsibility to weigh what is being offered, weigh who it is coming from, what they have done and then decide if it's something you want to put money into.
So yeah, I knew Camelot Unchained was going to have extra funds and it is being run by a professional with experience. Kind of a no brainer there.
With "Among the Sleep" the game is "almost" something that could be reinvented in the skyrim creation kit as it's pretty much more about story and the game play they showed was pretty much the crux of the game. It is not ambitious technically but it is novel and something I would want to play if they completed it. So no brainer there.
Now, if one is wowed by bells and whistles then that's something one has to work on.
For example, someone recently posted a tech demo of a game that I would love to play. The Kickstarter did in fact fund but of course they welcome more "donations".
So even though this looks like something I would love to play with regards to combat I will of course NOT be adding to their pot of money.
Their initial kickstarter is too low, even with the exchange rate and it just sounds like a lot for a small team to get done in their spare time. Will they succeed? I hope so but my faith in a person I don't know with no curiculum vitae to show, no projects that I know of that were completed, no info on the team mates that I saw, etc is not supported.
So sure, if people are going to give to a kickstarter they need to weigh a lot of things before seeing a "cool" or "interesting" anything and throwing money at it.
AND they have to be comfortable with losing that money if the project doesn't work. I'm more than comfortable with losing my paltry sums if either of the two do not launch but I suspect they will. Whether they will be good or not is another thing entirely.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
if people are going to give to a kickstarter they need to weigh a lot of things before seeing a "cool" or "interesting" anything and throwing money at it.
AND they have to be comfortable with losing that money if the project doesn't work. I'm more than comfortable with losing my paltry sums if either of the two do not launch but I suspect they will. Whether they will be good or not is another thing entirely.
if people are going to give to a kickstarter they need to weigh a lot of things before seeing a "cool" or "interesting" anything and throwing money at it.
AND they have to be comfortable with losing that money if the project doesn't work. I'm more than comfortable with losing my paltry sums if either of the two do not launch but I suspect they will. Whether they will be good or not is another thing entirely.
Comments
I dont' think anyone has said anything about "hopes and dreams and ushering a new era of games" in this thread. Don't put words in people's mouths. I'll look over the thread again and apologize if I missed that but otherwise your comment is not well placed.
As far as those backings, they did fail because no one wanted to play them.
Doesn't that seem obvious?
edit: looked it over and nothing about hopes and dreams and more with a healthy dose of scepticism.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
And guess what? That's just how it works now...you pay for what you want to play. But listening to the pessimist on this site and all you get is how dead the mmorpg genre is....go figure.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Im sorry but anyone who thought that in the first place deserves to lose every cent they put into it.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Just to be cynical for a moment. If I was going to swindle people out of their money, this would be the best way to do it. Who is going to get mad if you tell them a sad story about your family and health problems? He even mentions the health care system which is always something people get pissed about.
A really good con artist will always make you believe he's genuine. Not saying this is true, but someone who was trying to use kickstarter as a con could learn something from this guy. This is the way to do it, lots of communication. People will believe you if you sound honest and make them feel bad for you.
This is intresting
Gamasutra is a gaming industry website for developers. It is not (and I want to stress this) it is NOT an indie game developer website. Yet look at the headlines for today. nearly a full page of articles about indies.
http://www.gamasutra.com/
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I don't understand why people like that even ask for a kick starter? At the stage he and his 3 mates were at they could of produced what they committed to working on it as a hobby while working their normal jobs. At that point they would have something to show and then ramp up scale. Pledging to get people started seems really dubious to me because its like committing to someone's idea with no idea of their ability to even produce something let alone any indication of their commitment/tenacity.
Here's the real failing in my view "we certainly can’t be held responsible for predicting a future of personal misfortunes" this just isn't true when you run or are responsible for a business. IT IS your duty of care to have a risk management plan and contingencies in place. If you set a business up that solely relies on yourself and have no contingencies in place for when something goes wrong you are fully responsible for the outcome. It just goes to show these indie style developers need a business manager as a priority and if their kick starter has no mention of one pledges are really are a donation.
Camelot Unchained does have a better chance than most Kickstarter games, in part because they were able to show enough to get other funding sources rather than having to rely solely on people who don't know any better.
Even so, being able to show a bunch of pieces in a video is a long way away from having them polished and working properly, which is itself a long way away from having everything in place with all of the different features playing nicely with each other.
This thread is a good reminder that your $5000 dollar donation counts for nothing until the day of release. As the OP said they are not obligated to produce anything at all with your money. Legally they could take your donation and go buy hookers with it (at least in Nevada).
Kickstarter fans better hope Star Citizen pans out because it will set the pace for future kickstarters for years to come.
It also pays to look into the person behind the project before you blindly throw money at it. In the case of Camelot Unchained, Mark Jacobs is a proven professional in the MMORPG market. You may not agree with his design choices, but it's highly unlikely that he's going to fail to deliver a game.
On the flip side, I had a bad experience with a Kickstarter project. It was a bluetooth game controller to be used with phones, tablets, etc. called the iControlPad2. Craig, the guy in charge of it, had a track record of dishonesty and not communicating with his customers. Had I looked into him ahead of time, I would have realized this and probably saved myself some money. Anyway, he released a bunch of updates about delays and parts not shipping and what not.. then eventually disappeared. Apparently he was in debt or something, and just pocketed most of the money. He appears to have fucked over some of the people collaborating with him on the project as well.
At the end of the day, I still believe in Kickstarter as a great tool for projects to be crowd funded. However, you need to do your research and not jump blindly into things.
Just thought that I'd make a post to say there's another update on the KS site. Most relevent part to this discussion we're having:
"Third, I just wanted to clear up something that seems to be in confusion. There have been some comments that express frustration that the game doesn't continue slowly in what time I can find. However, that's exactly what's going on right now. The game iscontinuing forward. However, the premise of the Kickstarter phase of the project was a short fulltime effort from me and my team (with monthly updates at the very least), and this is no longer true. This is why I felt it was the right thing to notify the backers.
However, since the project is still ongoing (if on life-support), means that opening the project or releasing the music/art, etc (as many have requested), is problematic."
So with this along with offering refunds I'd say he is handling the situation with class even if he should have budgeted better or asked for more money ( I know getting sick in the US can be very expensive. Makes me grateful to live in Canada....).
Not sure if the game will ever get made but if he does give me a refund I'll probably turn around and buy the game if he ever does get it out. It is a sobering thing though. If this can happen even with one of the "good guys" leading a project.
true but i've found it reliable for me thus far -- only thing ive personally experienced are 2-3 month delays
I pledged to over 90 KS projects in 2013, 70 of them got funded
already received a dozen of them, rest are due this year
EQ2 fan sites
A better example would be Jeff Katz and his wrestling promotion that he got kickstarted and then just faded. No news... No updates and no indications that he did anything but laugh his way to the bank and then spend the money in vegas with his one-armed investing consultant.... Heck he prolly spent it in Reno with said consultant.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/790983338/wrestling-revolution/comments
This have been a good conversation
i missed this KS but this the only PC game i'm looking forward to this year
and it's a kickstarter
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/larianstudios/divinity-original-sin
http://www.divinityoriginalsin.com/
its not out yet..
EQ2 fan sites
Having paid for 70 projects and received 12 so far is your idea of reliable? If I promise to invent cold fusion this year, is that considered reliable until the year is over? Until I announce that I've given up?
Still, it should be noted that not all types of Kickstarter projects are equally likely to deliver. Complex programming projects (not just games) are notorious for going over budget in both time and money, or delivering something that doesn't actually work right.
Sure...
FTL
Expiditions:Conquistador
Shadowrun Returns wasn't bad....
Kickstarters have delivery dates -- i received all but one that had delivery dates of 2013
the rest have delivery dates in 2014
EQ2 fan sites
I'm well aware of that but that is the "investor's" (or patron or whatever word you want to use) responsibility to weigh what is being offered, weigh who it is coming from, what they have done and then decide if it's something you want to put money into.
So yeah, I knew Camelot Unchained was going to have extra funds and it is being run by a professional with experience. Kind of a no brainer there.
With "Among the Sleep" the game is "almost" something that could be reinvented in the skyrim creation kit as it's pretty much more about story and the game play they showed was pretty much the crux of the game. It is not ambitious technically but it is novel and something I would want to play if they completed it. So no brainer there.
Now, if one is wowed by bells and whistles then that's something one has to work on.
For example, someone recently posted a tech demo of a game that I would love to play. The Kickstarter did in fact fund but of course they welcome more "donations".
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1473965863/sui-generis
http://www.baremettle.com/sg/home/
So even though this looks like something I would love to play with regards to combat I will of course NOT be adding to their pot of money.
Their initial kickstarter is too low, even with the exchange rate and it just sounds like a lot for a small team to get done in their spare time. Will they succeed? I hope so but my faith in a person I don't know with no curiculum vitae to show, no projects that I know of that were completed, no info on the team mates that I saw, etc is not supported.
So sure, if people are going to give to a kickstarter they need to weigh a lot of things before seeing a "cool" or "interesting" anything and throwing money at it.
AND they have to be comfortable with losing that money if the project doesn't work. I'm more than comfortable with losing my paltry sums if either of the two do not launch but I suspect they will. Whether they will be good or not is another thing entirely.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
good points
the 2 largest ks i pledged for were $475 for boardgame http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1034852783/shadows-of-brimstone
and $230 for Bones 2 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1513061270/reaper-miniatures-bones-ii-the-return-of-mr-bones
but i feel comfortable with the past history of both
the expensive boardgame is being made by Flying Frog
http://www.flyingfrog.net/
EQ2 fan sites
Well, that's certainly brave of you.
the only amounts I ever give are enough to get me a copy of whatever game it is.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo