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Statless items (if any FE Devs are looking please take this into consideration)
Clive
Member Posts: 65
This hasnt raelly been discussed much here, or for that matter in any game. It is the idea of having minimal stats, ie on items etc. Instead of having a damage of 17-24 you'd have a discription in words about the damage as well as a discription for the rest of the weapon.
The reason?
Well as you know in any MMO people try to make uber templates, to be the best they can be. And with the advent of 3rd party addons to games like AC and wow, they can really figure out exactly how much damage they are doing, how much their armor is protecting them etc.
Well the reason I'm such a big fan of FE is the realism factor, so I'd like to you what you guys think about this for realism.
Having these statless items, would reduce the amount of uber gear configurations simply because people dont know which item is the best etc, unless by comparative testing.
Obviously you would be able to tell that "An old rusty steel katana" would be much worse than a "Pristine Steel Katana" , but damage numbers after that are simply unrealistic, and just encourage people to go on a never ending loot hunt to find the best item for their level. While this does create alot ofplayer in game hours, I dont thnk thats what Icarus wants the game experience to be like.
I'm all for keeping stats on characters like Str Dex health etc (Although I think it'd be cool if FE did health like the 1st deus ex did with different zones on the body turning different colors for damage)
Just bouncin this idea off,
feedback?
Comments
I have to agree with you here. Giving an item stats is telling the player too much in my opinion. When they know too much they make decisions based on numbers. If you left out the stats, players would make choices based on style and roleplaying. A crazy kamakazi guy will grab an uzi while the sneaky guy grabs the sniper rifle. They shouldnt both grab the rifle because it does 5 more minimal damage than the uzi. Its stuff like this that gets me turned off other games. Everyone having the same equipment because "its the best".
___________________________
The Golden Rule.
Risk vs. Reward
Im a bit confused as I keep hearing the word stats. It was my understanding this game wouldn't be a leveling game other then maybe crafting and such. IE: No level requirements per weapon and such. I thought the only things that you could level on were crafting skills and such.
No no, right here he's saying keep the weapon stats invisable. That way you dont pick up say a Shotgun and see: Damage 10-20. Simple as that. And we understand that theres no level system in this game...i think. I think its going to be handled by attributes, skills, and abilities. At least thats how I think it is, not 100% sure.
___________________________
The Golden Rule.
Risk vs. Reward
I completely agree with the statless idea. Every gun should have it's strengths and weaknesses. Even among the same type of guns. For example, a sawn off shotgun should be able to deal great damage at really close, but a pump action has a little more versatility in range. Or say an Uzi compared to an AK. The AK could be much more effective against single opponents, while a couple uzis could litter the area and take on multiple opponents. I'm no expert in the weapons so maybe others could list a few ideas on the trade off.
kingdane
Sorry I accidently clicked twice.
Descriptive weapon names are much more interesting than stat numbers, you've got my vote.
What about player crafted weapons? Can the crafter put in his own description on top of the "<Condition> <Material> <Type>" description? Certainly I want to have the crafters name on the item somewhere, that way if its really something nice that I picked up 3rd or 4th hand I can still trace it back to its origins and get 5 more like it
What about ammunition? I hope it needs to be scavenged or crafted. Will an ammo crafter need a shop with reloading dies and a press (and if so, different dies for different calibers)? Will players be making black powder ammo only at first and then rediscover all the chemical processes neccessary for proper smokeless powder?
WILL AMMO BE THE PRIMARY CURRENCY OF OUR WORLD?!?!?!
Can I pick up the expended brass after a firefight?
Its a Magazine, not a 'Clip'.
Its a Round, not a 'Bullet'.
Ammo as the currency, now thats an idea!
Although I highly doubt that happening for a video game
And I hope the devs dont put in "clip" because it does sound really stupid. If they want soemthing small, Mag works...and sounds much cooler.
___________________________
The Golden Rule.
Risk vs. Reward
I know they said that its gonna be like Neocron as far as combat is concerned. I just hope they leave combat up to players skill. And now I understand what you mean. Nope, they wont be letting people see what damage weapons do. They most probably will give weapon descriptions and thats it. If this is FPS combat, you will never see how many HP it takes off a person. That just doesnt happen in FPS based games. The only way to find out what a weapon does for damage is by shooting a friend with a single shot and writing it down.
Im just so nervous about the game as I dont want it to be anywhere near a point and click game. That would just totaly destroy me. Now leveling up to be better at crafting and such is cool. And the DNA changing is ok although I will have to get used to that.
Currency: BOTTLE CAPS!!! BOTTLE CAPS!!! AND MORE BOTTLE CAPS!!!! That should be the currency for the game. Bring back some good ole Fallout. Besides, thats the most realistic way to have currency, that and trading actual items.
I think that all related stats (damage, accuracy) should be listed. Not showing the damage on a gun just tacks on more hours of;
'hey, i found a new gun!'
'nice, lets test it'
'ok, stand here'
*blam*
(wait for respawn)
'ok now stand here'
*blam*
(wait for respawn)
'ok now stand there'
*blam*
(wait for respawn)
'ok now stand way over there
...and so on. I'd rather know whatever I need to know about the gun when I first pick it up so I can just go out and use it. Having your friend read off numbers to you as you stand there shooting him isn't my idea of the fun part of a game.
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the whole point is to get away from things like that, hopefully there will be a good enough description on the gun that you will get a feel for how powerful it is without knowing xact numbers, or shooting your friend.
Or you could go out and shoot monsters to see how good the weapon is. I mean, I know it sounds crazy, but your freind wouldnt be dead, and you could get loot too.
___________________________
The Golden Rule.
Risk vs. Reward
Well... The only way to stop people from giving one shot kills and recording damage per weapon is to not let them see their health status or health bar. That is something that you can't take away from people unless of course your using a one shot one kill real life system.
I always try and test out as much weapons as possible to see which is the best one per situation. Bear in mind that if you want complete stats your going to have to test each weapon out on bare naked bodies as well as each armor type there is. The only thing you can really do is make sure that it doesn't tell you what you have hit for ie: Radzik hit Delgado for 23 points of damage and such. Getting rid of how much hp you have left in digit form won't work either, as you can still mark the drop on the bar and get a good idea what damage it does.
Understand what you mean, just can't seeit happening.
In Anarchy Online, a weapon could be created, and at one point the devs actualy named a few items after clans and popular engineers/traders (best crafters in game) Anyone could craft things, but you had to want to spend the IP (points you get per leveling) on it.
In Lineage 2 I play a warsmith, I can make almost anything in game. Would love to see my name on a weapon or something, but everything is so cookie cutter it doesnt matter.
Another issue to add about the currency thing. A game called Utopia or Europa or something like that (not sure on the name, but SOE is also implementing a Station exchange) actualy ENCOURAGES use of regular currency (your own countries money, the stuff you work for) and you have to do it under THEIR rules and supervision. You can make money and spend your money. One person paid 26,000 for a piece of property in game in which he now makes money off of for people to hunt there.
In Lineage and most other MMORPG's buying in game currency is against the EULA and if caught you may be banned. My point is either promote or prevent it. any other thoughts?
To error is human, to forgive is devine. Neither are US Marine Corps doctrine.
Umm.... If they ever allow people to buy stuff with real money, that would totally suck. Theres no point in playing, you should be able to earn it. The idea with achieving a mythical status and getting an item named after you is pretty cool actually. I like that idea.
To error is human, to forgive is devine. Neither are US Marine Corps doctrine.
Ok, I think that the stats should be hidden behind good descriptions like many of you have said. Instead of "Dmg: 30-56 kinetic" you could have "The blast from this gun could easily rip off a limb at close range"
Also, I like the idea of naming stuff after legendary characters which many games have done. I think Delgado is looking to get something named after him, whether it be a gun or a crater that he created that used to be a town
Waiting For: something good
Games Tried: SWTOR, Star Trek Online, EQ, EQ2, Earth and Beyond, Planetside, Lineage 2, Eve Online, WoW, City of Heroes, City of Villians, Auto Assault, Fallen Earth
Star Wars: Galaxies - Ibra Olasi (Valcyn Server) [Dead, screw you SOE]
How about naming Norad after me? I'm pushing for the devs to implement that into the game. Of course, if they do that, there sure as hell won't be anything left anymore. Naming items was someone elses idea btw...
And something you people don't seem to understand... The basis of this game is FPS... FPS games don't tell you what what weapons do in damage, ie: Cthulhuvong hits Delgado for 75 HP.. They never have and never will. This isn't going to be a point and click game where you can see damage being dealt.
The only way you can tell what gun does what damage is by shooting a friend or having a friend shoot you ONCE and see what it brings you down to. This will as well vary depending on if damage is dealt differently pwer body hit, ie: arms less then head and so fourth. It will also vary per armor type a person is wearing. Only way to stop people from finding damage out that way is by not putting in a health meter, something I am against.
Basically, people are not going to spend all that HARD earned cash buying every weapon they can and testing it all out. Well, Im sure at some point they will but who cares. No matter what they do, they can't do shit against a guy with better FPS skills then them as this comes from the player himself - example: Player A has the best weapons, armor, ammo type, dna, whatever. Player B has the basics but is a veteran at FPS. Player B will end uo winning as he can put more rounds into player A while not getting hit. FPS is all about aiming, reflexes and knowledge of how to kill.
Don't worry about devs letting people see the damage done, they won't show it in writing and the other way I described doesnt matter anyway.
Damage Dealt:
3 shots for 25 damage to L33T
5 shots for 139 damage to Terjon
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Damage Taken:
2 shots for 49 damage from L33T
1 shot for 37 damage from Terjon
Basically what happens is that you won't see this, but it will be there and has to be there. No matter how much of an abstract looking system you want (and that seems to be the consensus around these boards) there will be stats in the background. You just won't see them.
Also, Player A can win, but it depends on B's equipment. If A has kevlar, a helmet, and an M4 with 5 extra mags vs. B who has no armor and a Glock 17 with 15 rounds total, and they are 100 yards apart, I'll put my money on B. Two hits to the chest and he wins, where as A has to be able to hit beyond the weapons effective range and pierce the armor.
Skill won't get you through everything, though it may get you through most. Remember that the best way to beat someone better than you is to get a bunch of your friends and gang up on him.
Sorry about the rant, but it is what I do best. I agree with you though that we won't, or at least shouldn't be able to see the combat stats, but you must admit that the stats will be there, as they are in all games. The most we should be able to see from combat is:
"Player B killed Player A."
"Player B gains 150 experiance points."
"Player B loots Player A."
Waiting For: something good
Games Tried: SWTOR, Star Trek Online, EQ, EQ2, Earth and Beyond, Planetside, Lineage 2, Eve Online, WoW, City of Heroes, City of Villians, Auto Assault, Fallen Earth
Star Wars: Galaxies - Ibra Olasi (Valcyn Server) [Dead, screw you SOE]
Sure if theres 100 yards between them with no cover, chances are the m4 will win. But hopefully this game wont be all runnin and gunnin. What if B hid behind a rock and waited until A passed him. Then slowly walked closer to him and unloaded a whole clip. Kevlar or not, he'd be hurting, and totally surpirsed.
I hope strategy wins over equipment.
___________________________
The Golden Rule.
Risk vs. Reward
Well I hope for a nice balance of both!
Regarding statless items, its pretty pointless. Within a couple of months someone will have lifted the stats out of the game database, or thru shared reports.
Although I would favour a 'wounded' status, rather than 'you are at (41/100) hitpoints' that affects your speed and stuff.
With balanced weapons, you'll find most modern weapons have positives and minuses - for example the AK is cheap and reliable, but the M4 is more accurate. How about we have both, a nice description and the stats. Because having the stats in-game I feel benefits the casual player more than the hardcore min-maxxer, as the hardcore player will find out the stats elsewhere if they are not readily available.
Radzik: I hope strategy wins over equipment.
Yes, I agree and believe that skill and strategy should be the main point while equipment should be used to enhance those abilites. Those that are good at combat and good at strategy should be able to bet those who are just better funded most of the time.
Thrak: Regarding statless items, its pretty pointless. Within a couple of months someone will have lifted the stats out of the game database, or thru shared reports.
Since they will most likely be using a FPS-type of combat, hopefully they will follow other FPSs when they deal with combat. If you shoot someone up close with a weapon, it should do a different amount of damage than if you shoot them from farther away. Play CS and see the difference between a pistol or shotgun blast up close and from far away. You have to take your time and aim to be able to hit the enemy's weak points from far away (and yes, I have sniped with a shotgun on occasions, but it takes patience and skill). SMGs have a little more staying power with their damage over distance, and rifles and assault rifles have the most power over distance.
If FE uses this (damage by the round lessens over distance) rather than a flat damage rate (what 1 round from an AK-47 does up close it also does 200 yards away) there will be no way to have the stats except to guess.
For new players, you could have all of this in the manual. Have just the basics: pistol, shotgun, sub-machineguns (SMGs), rifles, assault rifles, machineguns (MGs), plasma cannons, nuclear bombs, etc.
In there describe how each does at different ranges (Pistols: effective range: short; Rifles: effective range: med-long) and a general scale on how much damage it does (none, cuts skin, wound, serious wound, He needs a doctor! wound, "that man is dead" wound, vaporization of the surrounding kilometers. etc.). Then in game all you need is a more specific description of the weapon (what makes it different than others of its kind).
Waiting For: something good
Games Tried: SWTOR, Star Trek Online, EQ, EQ2, Earth and Beyond, Planetside, Lineage 2, Eve Online, WoW, City of Heroes, City of Villians, Auto Assault, Fallen Earth
Star Wars: Galaxies - Ibra Olasi (Valcyn Server) [Dead, screw you SOE]
If FE uses this (damage by the round lessens over distance) rather than a flat damage rate (what 1 round from an AK-47 does up close it also does 200 yards away) there will be no way to have the stats except to guess.
Nah, whatever formulas are used for damage and however it is calculated, it will be lifted from the program. Even distance, location specific dmg has base values that can be lifted. It will get out, you can pretty much take any popular game evidence of this.
True, the equations will get out. But who is going to try doing the math when instead they could be honing their skills?
Waiting For: something good
Games Tried: SWTOR, Star Trek Online, EQ, EQ2, Earth and Beyond, Planetside, Lineage 2, Eve Online, WoW, City of Heroes, City of Villians, Auto Assault, Fallen Earth
Star Wars: Galaxies - Ibra Olasi (Valcyn Server) [Dead, screw you SOE]
True, the equations will get out. But who is going to try doing the math when instead they could be honing their skills?
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Powergamers will, which means they will have an advantage over more casual gamers with this sort of system. I think a tab on the weapon containing stats is more or less essential, even if it only provides basic details - at least it allows casual gamers to compete with the powergamer. Its a nice idea tho.