having gear repair done only by crafters with repair training (much like life, if you can't find someone to fix it, the item is trash)
having repaired gear be of significantly less performance than new gear (as part of the decay mechanism)
having player gear damaged or destroyed after death, including looted gear (reduces the value of gank gear)
damaged gear can be repaired or salvaged, destroyed gear can only be salvaged
salvage materials are inferior, and produce items of inferior quality
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
Full loot devalues items. In games where any old zerger can loot your stuff, the stuff will just be mediocre easily replaceable at best. This completely removes all incentive for progressive item play and crafters may be financially rewarded but they are just making the same old cheapo crap over and over. They are not master craftsman and the psychology and romance of being a crafter is destroyed.
If UO, AC and EVE Online didn't exist, I would agree. Unfortunately they do, which blows your opinion-stated-as-fact out the window.
and if SWG hadn't existed we could say that the OP was right, but we can't, which blows his opinion stated as fact out the window.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
Full loot devalues items. In games where any old zerger can loot your stuff, the stuff will just be mediocre easily replaceable at best. This completely removes all incentive for progressive item play and crafters may be financially rewarded but they are just making the same old cheapo crap over and over. They are not master craftsman and the psychology and romance of being a crafter is destroyed.
The same principle applies to decay. You might think that being able to remake crappy shit for people is great but you seem to miss that item centric games revolve around uber loot or the fantasy and romance around the idea of being able to get uber loot. A crafter likes to think that they are a good crafter or working towards being a good crafter, ie progression and not living at ground zero perpetually because everyone is dragged back to it every time they die.
Want to make crafting rewarding? Here's how:
Crafters are competing with cash shops and loot drops. Tip the balance slightly without the histrionics of your other suggestions.
So why do developers use levels? Combat players don't actually think they are getting good at combat? Hitpoints reaching zero causing them to respawn somewhere devalues their own skills they spent months obtaining. The AI is made to auto lose, so you are not a master combatant and the romance of being a hero is destroyed. What kind of hero runs out of hitpoints and loses and gets to try again and again.
Same principle applies to gaining skills. You might think being able to kill a turtle is great, but you seem to miss the hero centric fantasy and romance that comes from winning against all odds instead of turtle killing for chores for 3-6 months to unlock a better version of a skill you already have.
A combat player likes to think they are good or working to be better (progressing) and not treading water until the developers flush your perceived progress away with a patch or expansion.
Want to make combat more rewarding? Remove all rewards from anything else. In fact, all xp comes from combat participation, but leave those other systems in as secondary skills to make combat seem like its the best.
Anyway, the reward for crafting is customers. A regular customer is the best reward. Crafters already know this. Your story there fails to mention that, while making other shit up.
We'd love to compete with shops and loot and have skill determine the end product, it's not crafters who require power gaps to be hardcore.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
having gear repair done only by crafters with repair training (much like life, if you can't find someone to fix it, the item is trash)
This isn't like life, actually... any warrior worthy of the designation and using a sword knows how to sharpen it with a wetstone in "real life".
Yeah, this calls into question the level of abstraction you want to display in the game. If it is something everyone does, do you want to simulate it? Is it assumed as long as you have the proper equipment? Do you just ignore it as a given?
I can see that logic behind your mention of bandits dropping things that are most useful as raw materials. Unless you just happened upon the bandit that just cleaned out that old tomb.....
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Full loot devalues items. In games where any old zerger can loot your stuff, the stuff will just be mediocre easily replaceable at best. This completely removes all incentive for progressive item play and crafters may be financially rewarded but they are just making the same old cheapo crap over and over. They are not master craftsman and the psychology and romance of being a crafter is destroyed.
If UO, AC and EVE Online didn't exist, I would agree. Unfortunately they do, which blows your opinion-stated-as-fact out the window.
and if SWG hadn't existed we could say that the OP was right, but we can't, which blows his opinion stated as fact out the window.
Crafters in swg were originally to blame for the NGE.
The had to break up some kind of economic power broker club using prices to "get off" on greifing the entire playerbase.
While preventing other from crafting by hording resources. It was the stupidest thing I ever heard of. But they still blamed and removed the best crafting system/economy in any game ever made.
maybe the OP was right.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
I've often wondered if a developer would ever make a good Themebox MMO. One with true loss PVP, no BoE/BoP AND end game raiding.
But what needs to happen with the raiding in this case is that it needs to be decoupled from gear. Instead there are very powerful creatures or NPC's in the world which either protect or contain the rarest of crafting materials.
So what happens is that you can harvest all of to the other resources you need to craft a certain piece of armor, but you can greatly increase the power of that item by including the fingernail clippings of some monster. Then people will raid in order to obtain rare crafting materials.
The problem with crafting in modern themeparks is that raiding completely removes the need for crafting in the first place. A group goes into a dungeon and they come out with several players wearing shiny new armor that will never decay, never drop off of their body in PVP and is BoP/BoE. This pretty much instantly shuts down the economy except for the minor crafting professions such as people who are making potions and other such consumables.
I've often wondered if a developer would ever make a good Themebox MMO. One with true loss PVP, no BoE/BoP AND end game raiding.
But what needs to happen with the raiding in this case is that it needs to be decoupled from gear. Instead there are very powerful creatures or NPC's in the world which either protect or contain the rarest of crafting materials.
So what happens is that you can harvest all of to the other resources you need to craft a certain piece of armor, but you can greatly increase the power of that item by including the fingernail clippings of some monster. Then people will raid in order to obtain rare crafting materials.
The problem with crafting in modern themeparks is that raiding completely removes the need for crafting in the first place. A group goes into a dungeon and they come out with several players wearing shiny new armor that will never decay, never drop off of their body in PVP and is BoP/BoE. This pretty much instantly shuts down the economy except for the minor crafting professions such as people who are making potions and other such consumables.
SWG was like that. Instead of a weapon with 35 to a stat. You got a 35 stat you could stick in a weapon. Everyone is fine with it except developers and balancing pve content around a wide range of variables is hard.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Originally posted by YoungCaesar Full loot pvp : If you never lose your items, theres never a need to replace them, and crafters would never be needed. Item decay: Helps with continuing the gear cycle and constant need for new gear... Regional Resources : There should be resources to fight over all over the map, and this should vary in each region. This will create demand for resources in regions where they are scarce. Local Banks: What would be the point of regional resources if you can acess the same bank from each city? For a good economy, banks should NOT be linked together. No Fast Travel: If you could teleport to every city in the map, there wouldn't be high demand for items which are not available in your area... This would destroy any type of economy.
1. Full loot PvP, while exciting and a very valid point, would make your game a niche game. Your idea is sound, if you lose your kit you will have to replace it, but relatively few people are going to put up with that for very long.
1a. If you feel you absolutely need to have full loot PvP ( I think it is a bad idea having played games like this) put the opportunity to loot on a timer, and have each thing take a certain amount of time to loot. I read about this system in I forget which game, but it made lots of sense. Like if you want to take a guys gloves, they pretty much pull right off, his chest piece however, will take a long time and you may only get that.
Also the gear you loot maybe broken and worthless, you just got finished killing this guy so his kit may be damaged beyond use. Until you pay a crafter to fix it.
2. Item Decay. Very solid idea. I would add that not just anyone can go to a NPC and pay to fix their stuff. Make repairs require resources and have a chance of breaking the item. Of course only crafters would have any chance of repairing gear.
3. Regional resources. I like this idea combined with the lineage 2 system. Different regions are claimed and ruled by different leaders and they set the tax rate for their region. Initially Castles (the hub for region control) were taken by PvE, but after that, it's all PvP. Combine this with your localized bank and you have a winner. imo.
4. No fast travel is a good one as well. And hey, mounts die. Another type of crafter the mount tamer/crafter would see more movement if your mount could die. As in SWG where in PvP you could target another guys mount and blow it up. He had to buy a repair kit or go find a vendor to buy a new one. Or a garage, but I didn't like the garage idea. Same idea here, only a mount tamer/crafter can fix your ride.
Anyway, just imo.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
I think a good crafting economy would come from faction and class specific crafting abilities. For instance, a Druid class that can brew health potions, a Knight class that forges armor. Limit professions to specific classes, basically.
Originally posted by SirPKsAlot I think a good crafting economy would come from faction and class specific crafting abilities. For instance, a Druid class that can brew health potions, a Knight class that forges armor. Limit professions to specific classes, basically.
I strongly disagree with that. Crafting should be it's own skill set, and not linked to a fighting class, and 100% crafting/merchant characters should be possible.
But that's what people who actually enjoy crafting want, so forget that idea.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
It violates the basic principles of supply and demand if everyone is able to supply the demand. Of course its great fun for people who enjoy crafting to have 20+ different professions at their disposal, but I thought this thread was on how to have a prosperous in-game economy.
Unless I'm misreading your post and what you actually mean is that a merchant-based class should exist? One that doesn't engage in PvP / PvE, but gains experience through crafting or something? A legitimate idea, though not really feasible in today's themepark MMOs since typically you find higher commodities in higher level areas (skinning level 40 jaguars for fine animal skin, or whatever)
First of all you need a system that constantly removes items from the game. The best solution would be a decent item decay system, so that all of the players, even if no PvP with playerlooting is involved need to replace their items over time.
Second. Seperate the crafters and the fighters by limiting the skillsets of the characters. A single character should never be able to do max his skills in more than a single direction.
Third. Ressources need to be limited to a point, where they're in balance with the demand. Too much ressources lead to plummeting prices, while too little ressources not only lead to inflated prices, but they could aswell lead to a situation, where people can't equip themselves anymore.
Fourth. Get rid of the global warehouses and install localized ones instead. This way there will be decentralized markets you can trade between.
Last but not least, all gear (besides your starter-set) should only be craftable by players. Mobs and dungeons should only reward you with ressources, be it gold/money or materials.
This system would work without any PvP, due to the item decay system and it would offer multiple new paths for a player to choose like becoming a specialized harvester, miner, smith, trader, etc
Just look at EvE Online, but introduce an item decay system in addition to the destruction of items upon being blown up.
Originally posted by SirPKsAlot It violates the basic principles of supply and demand if everyone is able to supply the demand. Of course its great fun for people who enjoy crafting to have 20+ different professions at their disposal, but II thought this thread was on how to have a prosperous in-game economy.
UO doesn't allow you to master 20+ professions, yet still allows 100% crafting characters and doesn't tie crafting to a specific class (as there are no classes in UO). Same for AC1, actually.
So what was your point?
I don't think UO was a great example of a prosperous in-game economy, with how many documented problems its seen over the years. In fact, 100% crafting characters were primarily a part of UO's economic problems.
Originally posted by SirPKsAlot I think a good crafting economy would come from faction and class specific crafting abilities. For instance, a Druid class that can brew health potions, a Knight class that forges armor. Limit professions to specific classes, basically.
I strongly disagree with that. Crafting should be it's own skill set, and not linked to a fighting class, and 100% crafting/merchant characters should be possible.
But that's what people who actually enjoy crafting want, so forget that idea.
Either quote your source of data or don't post at all. When you pretend to know what a specific subset of a player base "enjoys", you better post a link to reliable numbers.
Yes I'm pretending to know that people who enjoy crafting want a dedicated crafting class as an option . I've never spoken to any, nor has this subject ever came up before.
I wonder if people who enjoy healing want a dedicated healer class as an option?
I wonder if people who enjoy creature taming want a dedicated class as an option?
I wonder if people who enjoy being a tank want a class dedicated to being a tank?
I apologize if I spoke for those crafting lovers out there who do NOT want crafting to be more than a secondary skill.
Forgive my imagination.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Originally posted by SirPKsAlot It violates the basic principles of supply and demand if everyone is able to supply the demand. Of course its great fun for people who enjoy crafting to have 20+ different professions at their disposal, but II thought this thread was on how to have a prosperous in-game economy.
UO doesn't allow you to master 20+ professions, yet still allows 100% crafting characters and doesn't tie crafting to a specific class (as there are no classes in UO). Same for AC1, actually.
So what was your point?
I don't think UO was a great example of a prosperous in-game economy, with how many documented problems its seen over the years. In fact, 100% crafting characters were primarily a part of UO's economic problems.
Uo had economic problems? Please elaborate.
They said SWG did too.
I guess EVE must be the same
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Lots of people cite SWG as having either the best or one of the best crafting systems ever. Here are some of the key reasons why (and what should be considered by devs in new games):
- Degradation of items. This is where your demand comes from. In SWG that awesome blaster pistol you have is going to die one day. The more you use it the faster it will die. You will need to find another one to replace it, which will have been made by a player.
- Variety and scarcity of resources. This affects both your suppy and demand. Crafters have to constantly chase ever-changing availability and quality of resources. Some weeks are bad for making some items, others are great. Prices and quality of items goes up and down regularly dictated by what can be made, with what stats etc.
- Everything is player-made. This is key. Why should we get gear drops from mobs that last forever? Why not rare recipes or molds with limited uses? Why can I buy a horse from some npc that lasts forever? Better someone tames it, and raises it and I buy from him. And it might die of old age, hard work or get killed so I will need to buy another.
- Deep crafting system. Crafting really good stuff should not be open to everyone. It should take time and investment in skills by a crafter so he/she is really good at what they do. So crafting/being a merchant or trader should be a viable aspect of the game. The great dragon-slaying warrior should not also be a master blacksmith, or vice-versa.
Lots of people cite SWG as having either the best or one of the best crafting systems ever. Here are some of the key reasons why (and what should be considered by devs in new games):
- Degradation of items. This is where your demand comes from. In SWG that awesome blaster pistol you have is going to die one day. The more you use it the faster it will die. You will need to find another one to replace it, which will have been made by a player.
- Variety and scarcity of resources. This affects both your suppy and demand. Crafters have to constantly chase ever-changing availability and quality of resources. Some weeks are bad for making some items, others are great. Prices and quality of items goes up and down regularly dictated by what can be made, with what stats etc.
- Everything is player-made. This is key. Why should we get gear drops from mobs that last forever? Why not rare recipes or molds with limited uses? Why can I buy a horse from some npc that lasts forever? Better someone tames it, and raises it and I buy from him. And it might die of old age, hard work or get killed so I will need to buy another.
- Deep crafting system. Crafting really good stuff should not be open to everyone. It should take time and investment in skills by a crafter so he/she is really good at what they do. So crafting/being a merchant or trader should be a viable aspect of the game. The great dragon-slaying warrior should not also be a master blacksmith, or vice-versa.
Everyone of those things were used against crafters when they removed crafting too. The question is do developers still think this?
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
I can't answer this question without putting a lot of personal feels in it. Since OP suggested PvP I see he can't be objective either.
Crafter game would have to be PvE with maybe a PvP arena (so long as they didn't get any rewards for their efforts). It would have to resemble a real life pioneer or medieval setting. It would have to include all mounts and pets to be bred and sold (nothing purchased in a game store or off an npc). Eggs or piglets would be found in the wild. It would have to be realistic and not stupid. The game devs would have to set controls over the auction so greed or gold sellers couldn't overcharge. There could be no stalls or self shops although a co-op wagon train stopping to sell goods to travelers might be acceptable so long as it was by itself. Multiple stalls would just cause lagg.
I don't think UO was a great example of a prosperous in-game economy, with how many documented problems its seen over the years. In fact, 100% crafting characters were primarily a part of UO's economic problems.
Actually, before they ruined it by adding gear farming like in the other "theme park" MMORPGs, UO is the pristine example of how a player driven economy can work. And when you pretend "crafting characters were primarily (lol) a part of UO's economic problems", you may want to elaborate a bit more than just a sentence saying that "you're wrong".
The over-abundance of crafter mules coupled with a declining population made crafting anything besides potions or elite gear hardly a significant way to increase player trade. There's no economic supply and demand when your crafter alt can supply everything for you. Then, as you said, they added elite loot drops, so really the whole system is borked at this point.
Mind to give an example of a game which did it better? Because no MMO developer can force players to buy from others if they have decided to do it all on their own. It's all about individual time investment, something you just can't stop. The no life people will always have their own "crafter mules", that doesn't mean the vast majority, aka people with a life, will not trade with other players.
Maybe no MMO developer, but there's a MUD I play from time to time that completely disallows the use of alt characters to benefit your main. The population is small (400+ players during peak hours), but the economy has remained fairly stable over the past 14 years. In this MUD, the economy relies on;
-Player trading, including player-ran shop, which also serve as a gold-sink since owning a shop in a faction-tied city can cost around 2+ million gold. Also, shops are of limited availability, and tend to go on auction when one is open for leasing.
-Professions tied to character class, such as Knights = Blacksmithing, Druids = Potions, etc.
-Certain crafting professions being gold-sinks themselves, such as obtaining a Tailoring or Jewelry license costing 500k gold.
-Item decay with no repair ability, items simply crumble into dust after a certain amount of time.
-No loot drops, you can find sub-par equipment in generic NPC shops but player-crafted gear is vastly superior.
Of course, the MUD audience vastly differs from the MMO audience, but it is an example of a game that does it better.
Full loot devalues items. In games where any old zerger can loot your stuff, the stuff will just be mediocre easily replaceable at best. This completely removes all incentive for progressive item play and crafters may be financially rewarded but they are just making the same old cheapo crap over and over. They are not master craftsman and the psychology and romance of being a crafter is destroyed.
If UO, AC and EVE Online didn't exist, I would agree. Unfortunately they do, which blows your opinion-stated-as-fact out the window.
and if SWG hadn't existed we could say that the OP was right, but we can't, which blows his opinion stated as fact out the window.
Crafters in swg were originally to blame for the NGE.
The had to break up some kind of economic power broker club using prices to "get off" on greifing the entire playerbase.
While preventing other from crafting by hording resources. It was the stupidest thing I ever heard of. But they still blamed and removed the best crafting system/economy in any game ever made.
maybe the OP was right.
where in the world did you hear this? and did you slap the person who said it to you?
this is a completely bogus claim unless you can substantiate it with external evidence, an interview, something.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
Maybe no MMO developer, but there's a MUD I play from time to time that completely disallows the use of alt characters to benefit your main.
Yeah, there are many NWN servers which tried to not allow that either. None of them became popular.
I don't understand the point you're making. The game runs on a single-server, it's not broken up into realm shards. There hasn't been any wild fluctuations of item costs over the years, it's not UO or D3 where some elite sword goes for 2 million gold until a new elite sword is released in a content pack. What did the popularity of NWN have to do with my post?
Full loot devalues items. In games where any old zerger can loot your stuff, the stuff will just be mediocre easily replaceable at best. This completely removes all incentive for progressive item play and crafters may be financially rewarded but they are just making the same old cheapo crap over and over. They are not master craftsman and the psychology and romance of being a crafter is destroyed.
If UO, AC and EVE Online didn't exist, I would agree. Unfortunately they do, which blows your opinion-stated-as-fact out the window.
and if SWG hadn't existed we could say that the OP was right, but we can't, which blows his opinion stated as fact out the window.
Crafters in swg were originally to blame for the NGE.
The had to break up some kind of economic power broker club using prices to "get off" on greifing the entire playerbase.
While preventing other from crafting by hording resources. It was the stupidest thing I ever heard of. But they still blamed and removed the best crafting system/economy in any game ever made.
maybe the OP was right.
where in the world did you hear this? and did you slap the person who said it to you?
this is a completely bogus claim unless you can substantiate it with external evidence, an interview, something.
Obviously it was bogus considering what happened to the economy afterwards.
I guess you have to throw out your most loyal hardcore players who don't raid every few years or something.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Comments
My list:
having gear repair done only by crafters with repair training (much like life, if you can't find someone to fix it, the item is trash)
having repaired gear be of significantly less performance than new gear (as part of the decay mechanism)
having player gear damaged or destroyed after death, including looted gear (reduces the value of gank gear)
damaged gear can be repaired or salvaged, destroyed gear can only be salvaged
salvage materials are inferior, and produce items of inferior quality
and if SWG hadn't existed we could say that the OP was right, but we can't, which blows his opinion stated as fact out the window.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
So why do developers use levels? Combat players don't actually think they are getting good at combat? Hitpoints reaching zero causing them to respawn somewhere devalues their own skills they spent months obtaining. The AI is made to auto lose, so you are not a master combatant and the romance of being a hero is destroyed. What kind of hero runs out of hitpoints and loses and gets to try again and again.
Same principle applies to gaining skills. You might think being able to kill a turtle is great, but you seem to miss the hero centric fantasy and romance that comes from winning against all odds instead of turtle killing for chores for 3-6 months to unlock a better version of a skill you already have.
A combat player likes to think they are good or working to be better (progressing) and not treading water until the developers flush your perceived progress away with a patch or expansion.
Want to make combat more rewarding? Remove all rewards from anything else. In fact, all xp comes from combat participation, but leave those other systems in as secondary skills to make combat seem like its the best.
Anyway, the reward for crafting is customers. A regular customer is the best reward. Crafters already know this. Your story there fails to mention that, while making other shit up.
We'd love to compete with shops and loot and have skill determine the end product, it's not crafters who require power gaps to be hardcore.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Yeah, this calls into question the level of abstraction you want to display in the game. If it is something everyone does, do you want to simulate it? Is it assumed as long as you have the proper equipment? Do you just ignore it as a given?
I can see that logic behind your mention of bandits dropping things that are most useful as raw materials. Unless you just happened upon the bandit that just cleaned out that old tomb.....
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Crafters in swg were originally to blame for the NGE.
The had to break up some kind of economic power broker club using prices to "get off" on greifing the entire playerbase.
While preventing other from crafting by hording resources. It was the stupidest thing I ever heard of. But they still blamed and removed the best crafting system/economy in any game ever made.
maybe the OP was right.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
I've often wondered if a developer would ever make a good Themebox MMO. One with true loss PVP, no BoE/BoP AND end game raiding.
But what needs to happen with the raiding in this case is that it needs to be decoupled from gear. Instead there are very powerful creatures or NPC's in the world which either protect or contain the rarest of crafting materials.
So what happens is that you can harvest all of to the other resources you need to craft a certain piece of armor, but you can greatly increase the power of that item by including the fingernail clippings of some monster. Then people will raid in order to obtain rare crafting materials.
The problem with crafting in modern themeparks is that raiding completely removes the need for crafting in the first place. A group goes into a dungeon and they come out with several players wearing shiny new armor that will never decay, never drop off of their body in PVP and is BoP/BoE. This pretty much instantly shuts down the economy except for the minor crafting professions such as people who are making potions and other such consumables.
SWG was like that. Instead of a weapon with 35 to a stat. You got a 35 stat you could stick in a weapon. Everyone is fine with it except developers and balancing pve content around a wide range of variables is hard.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
1. Full loot PvP, while exciting and a very valid point, would make your game a niche game. Your idea is sound, if you lose your kit you will have to replace it, but relatively few people are going to put up with that for very long.
1a. If you feel you absolutely need to have full loot PvP ( I think it is a bad idea having played games like this) put the opportunity to loot on a timer, and have each thing take a certain amount of time to loot. I read about this system in I forget which game, but it made lots of sense. Like if you want to take a guys gloves, they pretty much pull right off, his chest piece however, will take a long time and you may only get that.
Also the gear you loot maybe broken and worthless, you just got finished killing this guy so his kit may be damaged beyond use. Until you pay a crafter to fix it.
2. Item Decay. Very solid idea. I would add that not just anyone can go to a NPC and pay to fix their stuff. Make repairs require resources and have a chance of breaking the item. Of course only crafters would have any chance of repairing gear.
3. Regional resources. I like this idea combined with the lineage 2 system. Different regions are claimed and ruled by different leaders and they set the tax rate for their region. Initially Castles (the hub for region control) were taken by PvE, but after that, it's all PvP. Combine this with your localized bank and you have a winner. imo.
4. No fast travel is a good one as well. And hey, mounts die. Another type of crafter the mount tamer/crafter would see more movement if your mount could die. As in SWG where in PvP you could target another guys mount and blow it up. He had to buy a repair kit or go find a vendor to buy a new one. Or a garage, but I didn't like the garage idea. Same idea here, only a mount tamer/crafter can fix your ride.
Anyway, just imo.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Currently playing: Eldevin Online as a Deadly Assassin
But that's what people who actually enjoy crafting want, so forget that idea.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
It violates the basic principles of supply and demand if everyone is able to supply the demand. Of course its great fun for people who enjoy crafting to have 20+ different professions at their disposal, but I thought this thread was on how to have a prosperous in-game economy.
Unless I'm misreading your post and what you actually mean is that a merchant-based class should exist? One that doesn't engage in PvP / PvE, but gains experience through crafting or something? A legitimate idea, though not really feasible in today's themepark MMOs since typically you find higher commodities in higher level areas (skinning level 40 jaguars for fine animal skin, or whatever)
Currently playing: Eldevin Online as a Deadly Assassin
First of all you need a system that constantly removes items from the game. The best solution would be a decent item decay system, so that all of the players, even if no PvP with playerlooting is involved need to replace their items over time.
Second. Seperate the crafters and the fighters by limiting the skillsets of the characters. A single character should never be able to do max his skills in more than a single direction.
Third. Ressources need to be limited to a point, where they're in balance with the demand. Too much ressources lead to plummeting prices, while too little ressources not only lead to inflated prices, but they could aswell lead to a situation, where people can't equip themselves anymore.
Fourth. Get rid of the global warehouses and install localized ones instead. This way there will be decentralized markets you can trade between.
Last but not least, all gear (besides your starter-set) should only be craftable by players. Mobs and dungeons should only reward you with ressources, be it gold/money or materials.
This system would work without any PvP, due to the item decay system and it would offer multiple new paths for a player to choose like becoming a specialized harvester, miner, smith, trader, etc
Just look at EvE Online, but introduce an item decay system in addition to the destruction of items upon being blown up.
I don't think UO was a great example of a prosperous in-game economy, with how many documented problems its seen over the years. In fact, 100% crafting characters were primarily a part of UO's economic problems.
Currently playing: Eldevin Online as a Deadly Assassin
Yes I'm pretending to know that people who enjoy crafting want a dedicated crafting class as an option . I've never spoken to any, nor has this subject ever came up before.
I wonder if people who enjoy healing want a dedicated healer class as an option?
I wonder if people who enjoy creature taming want a dedicated class as an option?
I wonder if people who enjoy being a tank want a class dedicated to being a tank?
I apologize if I spoke for those crafting lovers out there who do NOT want crafting to be more than a secondary skill.
Forgive my imagination.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Uo had economic problems? Please elaborate.
They said SWG did too.
I guess EVE must be the same
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Lots of people cite SWG as having either the best or one of the best crafting systems ever. Here are some of the key reasons why (and what should be considered by devs in new games):
- Degradation of items. This is where your demand comes from. In SWG that awesome blaster pistol you have is going to die one day. The more you use it the faster it will die. You will need to find another one to replace it, which will have been made by a player.
- Variety and scarcity of resources. This affects both your suppy and demand. Crafters have to constantly chase ever-changing availability and quality of resources. Some weeks are bad for making some items, others are great. Prices and quality of items goes up and down regularly dictated by what can be made, with what stats etc.
- Everything is player-made. This is key. Why should we get gear drops from mobs that last forever? Why not rare recipes or molds with limited uses? Why can I buy a horse from some npc that lasts forever? Better someone tames it, and raises it and I buy from him. And it might die of old age, hard work or get killed so I will need to buy another.
- Deep crafting system. Crafting really good stuff should not be open to everyone. It should take time and investment in skills by a crafter so he/she is really good at what they do. So crafting/being a merchant or trader should be a viable aspect of the game. The great dragon-slaying warrior should not also be a master blacksmith, or vice-versa.
Everyone of those things were used against crafters when they removed crafting too. The question is do developers still think this?
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
I can't answer this question without putting a lot of personal feels in it. Since OP suggested PvP I see he can't be objective either.
Crafter game would have to be PvE with maybe a PvP arena (so long as they didn't get any rewards for their efforts). It would have to resemble a real life pioneer or medieval setting. It would have to include all mounts and pets to be bred and sold (nothing purchased in a game store or off an npc). Eggs or piglets would be found in the wild. It would have to be realistic and not stupid. The game devs would have to set controls over the auction so greed or gold sellers couldn't overcharge. There could be no stalls or self shops although a co-op wagon train stopping to sell goods to travelers might be acceptable so long as it was by itself. Multiple stalls would just cause lagg.
The over-abundance of crafter mules coupled with a declining population made crafting anything besides potions or elite gear hardly a significant way to increase player trade. There's no economic supply and demand when your crafter alt can supply everything for you. Then, as you said, they added elite loot drops, so really the whole system is borked at this point.
Currently playing: Eldevin Online as a Deadly Assassin
People make item decay sound like something bad .
Just think equipments are consume like potion with many use change (durability) and it pretty normal.
And some ready love FFA full loot PVP but it never good option for craft driving economy .
Someone lost and someone gain but the item still here so why you need to craft something new ? That's the problem.
Item decay are gold and material (which infinity) consume ,
Without it , economy broke down soon or late when market full of free gold and material
More high level player is . more gold and material he can find and without right consume (decay) then market down.
There were many example (MMORPGs) out here for us to learn.
If i role as a craftsman , i want things get destroy and consume so i can craft more and sell more , nothing better than that.
Also , i want my craft item are unique that there are no or very little same copy in market which good for my sale.
So alone with other features , good crafting system (maybe heavy depend on player's real skill) are necessary for economy run by craftsman .
Maybe no MMO developer, but there's a MUD I play from time to time that completely disallows the use of alt characters to benefit your main. The population is small (400+ players during peak hours), but the economy has remained fairly stable over the past 14 years. In this MUD, the economy relies on;
-Player trading, including player-ran shop, which also serve as a gold-sink since owning a shop in a faction-tied city can cost around 2+ million gold. Also, shops are of limited availability, and tend to go on auction when one is open for leasing.
-Professions tied to character class, such as Knights = Blacksmithing, Druids = Potions, etc.
-Certain crafting professions being gold-sinks themselves, such as obtaining a Tailoring or Jewelry license costing 500k gold.
-Item decay with no repair ability, items simply crumble into dust after a certain amount of time.
-No loot drops, you can find sub-par equipment in generic NPC shops but player-crafted gear is vastly superior.
Of course, the MUD audience vastly differs from the MMO audience, but it is an example of a game that does it better.
Currently playing: Eldevin Online as a Deadly Assassin
where in the world did you hear this? and did you slap the person who said it to you?
this is a completely bogus claim unless you can substantiate it with external evidence, an interview, something.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
I don't understand the point you're making. The game runs on a single-server, it's not broken up into realm shards. There hasn't been any wild fluctuations of item costs over the years, it's not UO or D3 where some elite sword goes for 2 million gold until a new elite sword is released in a content pack. What did the popularity of NWN have to do with my post?
Currently playing: Eldevin Online as a Deadly Assassin
Obviously it was bogus considering what happened to the economy afterwards.
I guess you have to throw out your most loyal hardcore players who don't raid every few years or something.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Competition regulators, ever since SWG this one was sorely needed.
In general all the institutions that would protect the consumer from greedy ass crafter.