Dark Knight (Shadow Knight) has been the only class type i care to play for the last 15 years, even reading the faq takes me back to the days of Eq1/Eqoa, i am officially balls deep into this project.
I'm tempted to donate a 1$ just ask why they didn't mention another path for the Dark Knight like the Cleric... they mentioned basically two paths a Cleric could go, more healing/cloth based or more battle oriented with plate (like a paladin).
They didn't really talk about any other path for the dark knight... was cleric reveal really two classes or one? :P so confused.
IN the time it took for me to watch the intro vid and the 3 q & a vids, the pledges dropped from 188k to 179k. Anyone know what happened? I know people get the "sinking ship" mentality and do chargebacks but I wonder if there is a tier rework or something that got leaked and people are taking money out to buy new tiers. Just seemed a bit odd to have a drop like that in ~30 mins or so.
Edit: Oops now in the 178k range about 500 more down than when I started typing this.
People were upset because of the Dark Knight reveal. They were upset there was a lack of concrete info about the class (and the lack of info on the Kickstarter in general) and the misjudgement in the name being so closely related to Batman and the recent Batman movies. A $10k backer dropped out and many people expressed their distrust in the Kickstarter in the comments, so more and more people started dropping their pledges as fans kind of egged them on. There is a lot of back and forth between people upset and fans now in the Kickstarter comments. Lots of drama unfolding. Hopefully people of both sides calm down soon or we aren't going to break out of the negative for daily gains today.
IN the time it took for me to watch the intro vid and the 3 q & a vids, the pledges dropped from 188k to 179k. Anyone know what happened? I know people get the "sinking ship" mentality and do chargebacks but I wonder if there is a tier rework or something that got leaked and people are taking money out to buy new tiers. Just seemed a bit odd to have a drop like that in ~30 mins or so.
Edit: Oops now in the 178k range about 500 more down than when I started typing this.
The numbers you're seeing are misleading. The number of backers has actually been increasing. Earlier this morning there were 1,502 and its climbed to 1,518 as I write this. Also, the $10k pledges (aside from one) have been unpledging and repledging multiple times. I'm not sure if they're trolling the KS for this game or if they just keep changing their mind. In either case, its causing a lot of confusion about the flow of pledges/money into this KS.
IN the time it took for me to watch the intro vid and the 3 q & a vids, the pledges dropped from 188k to 179k. Anyone know what happened? I know people get the "sinking ship" mentality and do chargebacks but I wonder if there is a tier rework or something that got leaked and people are taking money out to buy new tiers. Just seemed a bit odd to have a drop like that in ~30 mins or so.
Edit: Oops now in the 178k range about 500 more down than when I started typing this.
People were upset because of the Dark Knight reveal. They were upset there was a lack of concrete info about the class (and the lack of info on the Kickstarter in general) and the misjudgement in the name being so closely related to Batman and the recent Batman movies. A $10k backer dropped out and many people expressed their distrust in the Kickstarter in the comments, so more and more people started dropping their pledges as fans kind of egged them on. There is a lot of back and forth between people upset and fans now in the Kickstarter comments. Lots of drama unfolding. Hopefully people of both sides calm down soon or we aren't going to break out of the negative for daily gains today.
And you're surprised? These are MMO players we're talking about. Quite possibly the most particular demographic of people on the planet. Apparently people were upset about the actual title of the game as well. It's laughable how easily upset the MMO crowd can be over such trivial aspects of a game. I realize class info is fairly important, but the game was announced less than a month ago and probably won't be released for another 5 years or so (if at all).
IN the time it took for me to watch the intro vid and the 3 q & a vids, the pledges dropped from 188k to 179k. Anyone know what happened? I know people get the "sinking ship" mentality and do chargebacks but I wonder if there is a tier rework or something that got leaked and people are taking money out to buy new tiers. Just seemed a bit odd to have a drop like that in ~30 mins or so.
Edit: Oops now in the 178k range about 500 more down than when I started typing this.
People were upset because of the Dark Knight reveal. They were upset there was a lack of concrete info about the class (and the lack of info on the Kickstarter in general) and the misjudgement in the name being so closely related to Batman and the recent Batman movies. A $10k backer dropped out and many people expressed their distrust in the Kickstarter in the comments, so more and more people started dropping their pledges as fans kind of egged them on. There is a lot of back and forth between people upset and fans now in the Kickstarter comments. Lots of drama unfolding. Hopefully people of both sides calm down soon or we aren't going to break out of the negative for daily gains today.
And you're surprised? These are MMO players we're talking about. Quite possibly the most particular demographic of people on the planet. Apparently people were upset about the actual title of the game as well. It's laughable how easily upset the MMO crowd can be over such trivial aspects of a game. I realize class info is fairly important, but the game was announced less than a month ago and probably won't be released for another 5 years or so (if at all).
Indeed, and people are forgetting, or just intentionally overlooking, the fact that at this stage its more about showing the playerbase is there for this kind of game to be made, and to provide funding to get it started. People on these boards are constantly saying vote with your wallet, and many talk about how they want a classic old school mmo experience again, and when their opportunity arrives to do both they decline because they don't like the title of the game, or the name chosen for a particular class. /facepalm.
Originally posted by Consensus seems like a very generic fantasy mmorpg to me, but if thats what people want then power to them. thats why crowdfunding is interesting.
^ this.
Nothing appealing to me. But I hope the project gets funded.
Originally posted by Ikonis I love Vanguard, and will go back when the new multi game sub goes into effect, but I have no confidence in this. The obvious scripted dialog from the team was really bad and heeding stretch goals for basic features has turned me off.
:-(. That's the team who made VG.. The are Devs not salesman ha..
And there lies the issue, they are devs. No fiduciary credibility whatsoever, which is why I personally would not entrust them(him) with my money. Kind of academic discussing the 'creative' side without that in place tbh.
Trend looks awful. They actually lost over 4k in pledges yesterday.
They didn't lose 4k... A troll that pledged a fake 10k (there's been more than 1), kickstarter finally had that pledge removed... Which means that it actually went up 6k...
Today, it's up to $183,633 and still slowly going up... If people can look passed all the haters and go to the kickstarter page and make their own opinion about the game by reading/watching information that has been posted.
Trend looks awful. They actually lost over 4k in pledges yesterday.
They didn't lose 4k... A troll that pledged a fake 10k (there's been more than 1), kickstarter finally had that pledge removed... Which means that it actually went up 6k...
Today, it's up to $183,633 and still slowly going up... If people can look passed all the haters and go to the kickstarter page and make their own opinion about the game by reading/watching information that has been posted.
It doesn't matter if it was a troll pledge or not. It was showing in the trend and now it's gone. The numbers you see now are the real deal (unless there are more troll pledges in which case they're in even bigger trouble).
The problem is they are now gaining money at a snail's pace and if they don't have "critical mass" before the last week or so, they will have really tough time reaching the goal even with the usual last days sprint.
Even if Pantheon doesn't tickle my MMO nerves, I'm all in for diversity. I hope they reach the goal, but it looks pretty bad at the moment...
An MMO developed by gamers who aren't afraid to target an audience of like-minded gamers.So, old-school... gee, no game has made that claim lately!
A fantasy themed Massively Multiplayer Role Playing game (MMO) with a heavy focus on character development, an immersive world, and teamwork.In other words, forced grouping for everything
An MMO for players wanting a challenging and rewarding experience.A line so generic it may as well be invisible.
An open world in which you explore to obtain not only more powerful items but also new spells and abilities.Gw2 already tried this, didn't go over all that well.
Travel where and when you want to in a non-linear world.Name one game where you can't do that already. Granted you'll be torn apart by monsters much higher level than yourself, but I assure you the worlds are very much non-linear.
A huge world to explore, trade, and adventure in.
Another generic, invisible line
A complex back-story that players may gradually discover as they grow in power and explore the world.
Has any game ever launched without some variation on this? Hire some marketing people, sheesh.
A constantly expanding and evolving world.
Generic as the title. Next!
Group-focused social gameplay using a class based system to encourage teamwork.
A fancy way of saying it uses the trinity, and forces people to group to do anything meaningful. Yawn.
Customize your class by bonding with the spirits of fallen warriors.
Why would I want the skills of warriors who couldn't even keep themselves alive? Also, cliched as everything else so far.
Reactive combat where you can determine what the NPC is doing and react to it. (move, counter, deflect, etc.). Oh boy, action combat. Because that's worked out so well for other games these days, right? Plus it just screams OLD SCHOOL, too.
Combat will be challenging and involved -- your decisions will matter and directly affect the battle's outcome. Says the same thing as the previous line, and once again is nearly invisible due to how generic it is. Plus GW2, Tera, and RaiderZ (among others) beat you to this quite some time ago. Plus all the SP games like Dark Souls, Kingdoms of Amalur, Divinity 2, Skyrim, etc.
Travel the world and profit from selling exotic items collected from distant realms. Different cities and outposts may have local Bazaars. Are you just pulling these from a generic book of fantasy game taglines?
Limited and class based teleportation may get you close, but in order to reach many destinations you will have to traverse the planar scarred lands of Terminus through the use of your own two feet or on the back of your mighty steed. So, you'll have to walk... like EVERY OTHER MMO IN EXISTENCE.
Earning experience is only part of what it takes to level up. Exploring the world you will gain knowledge and power allowing you to overcome more powerful enemies. Normally the acquisition of knowledge and power could be termed 'gaining experience', but hey, I've only been playing these games since the 80's, so what would I know eh?
The game will run on PC, Mac, and possibly other platforms in the future. Oh goody, so I can play on my android when I'mbored at work.
I'll believe it when I see it. What, you haven't seen this game release a hundred times in the last two decades?
Me too my friend, me too. Though from examining the 'claims' made, we've already had it for, well... since the genre was born, really. Quite honestly, nothing here sounds new, exciting, innovative, fresh, or anything but old & tired, much like Brad's other games.
Screenshots look good though, so there is that.
Ok, this game obviously is not for you. If the best you can do is just troll, then go some where else, some of us want a return to the older games cause in our opinion they're better then the games that are out now. I do find it funny that you say it's old & tired especially since no recent game has even made an attempt at group based games. The ones we have are the ones that are over 7-10 years old.
The closest one I can think of thats even worth mentioning is Vanguard, and that was 7 years ago. Although there can be made a case that thats more a themepark then a real grouping game.
You don't like their "marketing", good, don't support or buy it
An MMO developed by gamers who aren't afraid to target an audience of like-minded gamers.So, old-school... gee, no game has made that claim lately!
A fantasy themed Massively Multiplayer Role Playing game (MMO) with a heavy focus on character development, an immersive world, and teamwork.In other words, forced grouping for everything
An MMO for players wanting a challenging and rewarding experience.A line so generic it may as well be invisible.
An open world in which you explore to obtain not only more powerful items but also new spells and abilities.Gw2 already tried this, didn't go over all that well.
Travel where and when you want to in a non-linear world.Name one game where you can't do that already. Granted you'll be torn apart by monsters much higher level than yourself, but I assure you the worlds are very much non-linear.
A huge world to explore, trade, and adventure in.
Another generic, invisible line
A complex back-story that players may gradually discover as they grow in power and explore the world.
Has any game ever launched without some variation on this? Hire some marketing people, sheesh.
A constantly expanding and evolving world.
Generic as the title. Next!
Group-focused social gameplay using a class based system to encourage teamwork.
A fancy way of saying it uses the trinity, and forces people to group to do anything meaningful. Yawn.
Customize your class by bonding with the spirits of fallen warriors.
Why would I want the skills of warriors who couldn't even keep themselves alive? Also, cliched as everything else so far.
Reactive combat where you can determine what the NPC is doing and react to it. (move, counter, deflect, etc.). Oh boy, action combat. Because that's worked out so well for other games these days, right? Plus it just screams OLD SCHOOL, too.
Combat will be challenging and involved -- your decisions will matter and directly affect the battle's outcome. Says the same thing as the previous line, and once again is nearly invisible due to how generic it is. Plus GW2, Tera, and RaiderZ (among others) beat you to this quite some time ago. Plus all the SP games like Dark Souls, Kingdoms of Amalur, Divinity 2, Skyrim, etc.
Travel the world and profit from selling exotic items collected from distant realms. Different cities and outposts may have local Bazaars. Are you just pulling these from a generic book of fantasy game taglines?
Limited and class based teleportation may get you close, but in order to reach many destinations you will have to traverse the planar scarred lands of Terminus through the use of your own two feet or on the back of your mighty steed. So, you'll have to walk... like EVERY OTHER MMO IN EXISTENCE.
Earning experience is only part of what it takes to level up. Exploring the world you will gain knowledge and power allowing you to overcome more powerful enemies. Normally the acquisition of knowledge and power could be termed 'gaining experience', but hey, I've only been playing these games since the 80's, so what would I know eh?
The game will run on PC, Mac, and possibly other platforms in the future. Oh goody, so I can play on my android when I'mbored at work.
I'll believe it when I see it. What, you haven't seen this game release a hundred times in the last two decades?
Me too my friend, me too. Though from examining the 'claims' made, we've already had it for, well... since the genre was born, really. Quite honestly, nothing here sounds new, exciting, innovative, fresh, or anything but old & tired, much like Brad's other games.
Screenshots look good though, so there is that.
Ok, this game obviously is not for you. If the best you can do is just troll, then go some where else, some of us want a return to the older games cause in our opinion they're better then the games that are out now. I do find it funny that you say it's old & tired especially since no recent game has even made an attempt at group based games. The ones we have are the ones that are over 7-10 years old.
The closest one I can think of thats even worth mentioning is Vanguard, and that was 7 years ago. Although there can be made a case that thats more a themepark then a real grouping game.
You don't like their "marketing", good, don't support or buy it
FFXIV:ARR has PVP only in groups, Fates are much more beneficial in groups, Raid content, Dungeons have to be done in groups (wether cross server PUG or pre-made).
They definitely push to be grouped but leave most if not all quests to be soloable.
Originally posted by Ginaz I'm torn whether I want this KS to fail so I can get the instant gratification of lulz or have it succeed so I can get some epic lulz at a later date after the fanboys build this up as MMO Jesus only to watch it crash and burn.
Geez man take a pill and relax, it's like Brad killed your first born or something. We understood that you didn't like this project the first 20 times you said it. You can go you merry way now.
Originally posted by Ginaz I'm torn whether I want this KS to fail so I can get the instant gratification of lulz or have it succeed so I can get some epic lulz at a later date after the fanboys build this up as MMO Jesus only to watch it crash and burn.
Geez man take a pill and relax, it's like Brad killed your first born or something. We understood that you didn't like this project the first 20 times you said it. You can go you merry way now.
Seriously.. Some people are perfectly happy with the current crop of MMOs.. That's awesome! Allow us(those that want a game like Pantheon,) and Brad to help each other. We get a good game, Brad gets an I told you so. Fair deal.
Seems way to generic for KS. As far as I can tell its yet another fantasy trinity pve MMO except its 'hardcore' because you can't solo or fast travel.
If you like shouting 'LF tank' for 6 hours and spending an hour travelling each time you want to bank something to free up inventory space then maybe these guys are on to something.
I hope they add 2 minutes of downtime after every single fight and allow spawn-camping / ninja looting because it will surely boost their backer count.
The only remotely interesting thing here is action based combat, but it doesn't really make sense in a game that is pve only. Do players need to hone their execution reflexes to take on ai-mobs? Also action based games generally have limited skill bars, which is something I would think oldschool players wouldn't like.
Seems way to generic for KS. As far as I can tell its yet another fantasy trinity pve MMO except its 'hardcore' because you can't solo or fast travel.
If you like shouting 'LF tank' for 6 hours and spending an hour travelling each time you want to bank something to free up inventory space then maybe these guys are on to something.
I hope they add 2 minutes of downtime after every single fight and allow spawn-camping / ninja looting because it will surely boost their backer count.
The only remotely interesting thing here is action based combat, but it doesn't really make sense in a game that is pve only. Do players need to hone their execution reflexes to take on ai-mobs? Also action based games generally have limited skill bars, which is something I would think oldschool players wouldn't like.
You might want to revisit the ks once they drop the Class and combat info. It's nothing like what you're saying. The class system appears to give players the ability to sub class by swapping out gear. If you're a cleric and have on plate armor, you'll take more of a traditional healing role.. If you swap to cloth, you'll take more of a dps bloodmage type role.
the designed downtime means stopping after a hectic fight to med, game plan an encounter or maybe disabling a trap..
lfg shouldn't be an issue with the class system I described and also there will be 20 levels with 50 levels of content. The actual level will be long with achievement unlocks during the level. But only 20 levels keeps people close, increasing the odds of filling groups.
Come on oldschoolers lets back this up so we can see five other games like this go into development!
I agree more people need to support this project. After 10 days they are exactly on pace to reach 800k but the rate of funding has slowed considerably. Unless Brad has big announcements ready that will generate increased pledges or some people waiting in the wings to pledge large dollars, Pantheon is not going to make the 800k goal. Not even close. Which is really sad as this genre is about dead and desperately needs a game that brings challenge back to the genre.
Come on oldschoolers lets back this up so we can see five other games like this go into development!
Which is really sad as this genre is about dead and desperately needs a game that brings challenge back to the genre.
Why?
I mean things change, and if the premise for a game like Pantheon is too niche/not enough people want this anymore, how can you say the genre needs it?
Come on oldschoolers lets back this up so we can see five other games like this go into development!
Which is really sad as this genre is about dead and desperately needs a game that brings challenge back to the genre.
Why?
I mean things change, and if the premise for a game like Pantheon is too niche/not enough people want this anymore, how can you say the genre needs it?
My premise is the genre is dead because devs have reached out too much to the screaming whining masses. Every modern game is easy mode, requires no thought, no attention and can be played with both eyes closed. Every game is simplified and stripped down to attract the masses. The problem is the masses have no attention span and do not play MMOs very long. Modern games are about eye candy and marketing to the masses to take as much money as they can from these people before they get bored and leave. Appealing to veteran gamers who want challenge, difficulty, risk/reward. complexity and actual effort and achievement is the direct opposite of what the masses want. Make a game for veteran players and its too difficult for the masses. Niche games are pretty much the only hope for players who actually play MMOs. A game like Pantheon provides hope the genre that we can get back to actually playing game that simplified pieces of marketed eye candy. It can provide a place for old school gamers who have been left behind by the simplistic easy mode games of the last 10 years.
Comments
I'm tempted to donate a 1$ just ask why they didn't mention another path for the Dark Knight like the Cleric... they mentioned basically two paths a Cleric could go, more healing/cloth based or more battle oriented with plate (like a paladin).
They didn't really talk about any other path for the dark knight... was cleric reveal really two classes or one? :P so confused.
People were upset because of the Dark Knight reveal. They were upset there was a lack of concrete info about the class (and the lack of info on the Kickstarter in general) and the misjudgement in the name being so closely related to Batman and the recent Batman movies. A $10k backer dropped out and many people expressed their distrust in the Kickstarter in the comments, so more and more people started dropping their pledges as fans kind of egged them on. There is a lot of back and forth between people upset and fans now in the Kickstarter comments. Lots of drama unfolding. Hopefully people of both sides calm down soon or we aren't going to break out of the negative for daily gains today.
I guess that is fair. It's just different than I expected I guess :P
The numbers you're seeing are misleading. The number of backers has actually been increasing. Earlier this morning there were 1,502 and its climbed to 1,518 as I write this. Also, the $10k pledges (aside from one) have been unpledging and repledging multiple times. I'm not sure if they're trolling the KS for this game or if they just keep changing their mind. In either case, its causing a lot of confusion about the flow of pledges/money into this KS.
And you're surprised? These are MMO players we're talking about. Quite possibly the most particular demographic of people on the planet. Apparently people were upset about the actual title of the game as well. It's laughable how easily upset the MMO crowd can be over such trivial aspects of a game. I realize class info is fairly important, but the game was announced less than a month ago and probably won't be released for another 5 years or so (if at all).
Indeed, and people are forgetting, or just intentionally overlooking, the fact that at this stage its more about showing the playerbase is there for this kind of game to be made, and to provide funding to get it started. People on these boards are constantly saying vote with your wallet, and many talk about how they want a classic old school mmo experience again, and when their opportunity arrives to do both they decline because they don't like the title of the game, or the name chosen for a particular class. /facepalm.
^ this.
Nothing appealing to me. But I hope the project gets funded.
Something big needs to happen or they won't reach their goal:
http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/
Trend looks awful. They actually lost over 4k in pledges yesterday.
:-(. That's the team who made VG.. The are Devs not salesman ha..
And there lies the issue, they are devs. No fiduciary credibility whatsoever, which is why I personally would not entrust them(him) with my money. Kind of academic discussing the 'creative' side without that in place tbh.They didn't lose 4k... A troll that pledged a fake 10k (there's been more than 1), kickstarter finally had that pledge removed... Which means that it actually went up 6k...
Today, it's up to $183,633 and still slowly going up... If people can look passed all the haters and go to the kickstarter page and make their own opinion about the game by reading/watching information that has been posted.
It doesn't matter if it was a troll pledge or not. It was showing in the trend and now it's gone. The numbers you see now are the real deal (unless there are more troll pledges in which case they're in even bigger trouble).
The problem is they are now gaining money at a snail's pace and if they don't have "critical mass" before the last week or so, they will have really tough time reaching the goal even with the usual last days sprint.
Even if Pantheon doesn't tickle my MMO nerves, I'm all in for diversity. I hope they reach the goal, but it looks pretty bad at the moment...
Ok, this game obviously is not for you. If the best you can do is just troll, then go some where else, some of us want a return to the older games cause in our opinion they're better then the games that are out now. I do find it funny that you say it's old & tired especially since no recent game has even made an attempt at group based games. The ones we have are the ones that are over 7-10 years old.
The closest one I can think of thats even worth mentioning is Vanguard, and that was 7 years ago. Although there can be made a case that thats more a themepark then a real grouping game.
You don't like their "marketing", good, don't support or buy it
FFXIV:ARR has PVP only in groups, Fates are much more beneficial in groups, Raid content, Dungeons have to be done in groups (wether cross server PUG or pre-made).
They definitely push to be grouped but leave most if not all quests to be soloable.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
Geez man take a pill and relax, it's like Brad killed your first born or something. We understood that you didn't like this project the first 20 times you said it. You can go you merry way now.
Seriously.. Some people are perfectly happy with the current crop of MMOs.. That's awesome! Allow us(those that want a game like Pantheon,) and Brad to help each other. We get a good game, Brad gets an I told you so. Fair deal.
Seems way to generic for KS. As far as I can tell its yet another fantasy trinity pve MMO except its 'hardcore' because you can't solo or fast travel.
If you like shouting 'LF tank' for 6 hours and spending an hour travelling each time you want to bank something to free up inventory space then maybe these guys are on to something.
I hope they add 2 minutes of downtime after every single fight and allow spawn-camping / ninja looting because it will surely boost their backer count.
The only remotely interesting thing here is action based combat, but it doesn't really make sense in a game that is pve only. Do players need to hone their execution reflexes to take on ai-mobs? Also action based games generally have limited skill bars, which is something I would think oldschool players wouldn't like.
You might want to revisit the ks once they drop the Class and combat info. It's nothing like what you're saying. The class system appears to give players the ability to sub class by swapping out gear. If you're a cleric and have on plate armor, you'll take more of a traditional healing role.. If you swap to cloth, you'll take more of a dps bloodmage type role.
the designed downtime means stopping after a hectic fight to med, game plan an encounter or maybe disabling a trap..
lfg shouldn't be an issue with the class system I described and also there will be 20 levels with 50 levels of content. The actual level will be long with achievement unlocks during the level. But only 20 levels keeps people close, increasing the odds of filling groups.
Q&A 3 video, there has also been alot of new information posted on the front page as well as expanded tiers
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen
Q&A vid 2
Come on oldschoolers lets back this up so we can see five other games like this go into development!
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
I agree more people need to support this project. After 10 days they are exactly on pace to reach 800k but the rate of funding has slowed considerably. Unless Brad has big announcements ready that will generate increased pledges or some people waiting in the wings to pledge large dollars, Pantheon is not going to make the 800k goal. Not even close. Which is really sad as this genre is about dead and desperately needs a game that brings challenge back to the genre.
Why?
I mean things change, and if the premise for a game like Pantheon is too niche/not enough people want this anymore, how can you say the genre needs it?
My premise is the genre is dead because devs have reached out too much to the screaming whining masses. Every modern game is easy mode, requires no thought, no attention and can be played with both eyes closed. Every game is simplified and stripped down to attract the masses. The problem is the masses have no attention span and do not play MMOs very long. Modern games are about eye candy and marketing to the masses to take as much money as they can from these people before they get bored and leave. Appealing to veteran gamers who want challenge, difficulty, risk/reward. complexity and actual effort and achievement is the direct opposite of what the masses want. Make a game for veteran players and its too difficult for the masses. Niche games are pretty much the only hope for players who actually play MMOs. A game like Pantheon provides hope the genre that we can get back to actually playing game that simplified pieces of marketed eye candy. It can provide a place for old school gamers who have been left behind by the simplistic easy mode games of the last 10 years.