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Finally, someone else is praising the TEF from SWG!
BadSpock
Member UncommonPosts: 7,979
PvP, open world, faction based, in a sandbox world, that is consensual.
Why has no one copied SWG pre-NGE TEF Galactic Civil War? Why are so many devs (indies especially) hung up on FFA PvP that isn't as simple/elegant as SWG pre-NGE?
This guy at Massively sure got it right, 100%.
Read on and learn, hopefully some dev somewhere takes notice and builds a PROPER PvE sandbox with opt-in open world factional PvP.
Comments
I caught this article on my morning news rotation and I have to say it is spot on! Great read for everyone...
I think the only game that will be even close to this is The Repopulation...
TR just announced there will even be non combat options...
This may be the true gem of 2014/2015
What are your other Hobbies?
Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...
Really looks like Repopulation is trying hard to be the spiritual successor to pre-NGE SWG, which right there is worth a look.
I just hope they don't make the same mistake(s) as SWG did even before the NGE/CU, which was a complete a total lack of polish, horrible balance, more bugs and broken features than working ones, etc. as well as prioritizing releasing new features (like housing, mounts, speeders, JTL etc.) before fixing the d*mn game.
That ^ is really what made me quit SWG, was a buggy and broken mess with GREAT ideas and piss poor execution, then JTL came and was totally not X-Wing/Tie-Fighter and the Holocron grind started.. I was out before CU/NGE hit.
Great read. Thanks, Spock
What came to my mind as I read was WoW's dueling system. They at one time had the PvP flag system, but also the duel request system. Was SW:G like that at all? I got so annoyed running through Goldshire and getting request after request (many times from the same player multiple times), that I started to just leave the first request open on my screen, never answering the request, and played on.
OW PvP with a choice seems to be unheard in MMOs. I may give it a try if it was implemented
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
LIKE!
Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004! Make PvE GREAT Again!
Reason to PvP is just as important as the method.
Some people would perma-flag because they like the danger/combat.
Some would only flag when they felt they had the upper hand for a "gank."
etc.
You have to give people reason to go outside of their comfort zone.
This includes rewards, sure, but also objectives.
Hence, the popularity of territorial control/conquest mechanics.
Funny how the author spending more time praising the system rather than explaining it and his weak attempt to dis PvP in GW1 and "other lobby shooters" gives the article a fanboyish vibe.
Just some guy looking for a silver bullet. Move along.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Funny how you spent more time "poo-poo'ing" the read rather than explaining why his analysis was a weak attempt to dis PvP in GW1 & other "lobby shooters"; gives your post a fanboyish vibe. LOL
Seriously though, it didn't come off tome as "fanboyish", given how he stated a few times that the SW IP itself was what likely held the game back, or atleast contributed to some of the game's less desirable parts.
I think he was just acknolwedging that you CAN have a Sandbox (WITH Open World PvP), and not have it be a greifing fest (given the elective PvP switch) He also pointed out the opportunity in the MMO space for something like this, and was curious why someone hasn't tried to duplicate it yet.
I think that is a pretty fair analysis.
The issue is the carnivore run off the omnivores and herbivores unchecked. Might makes right does not lead to accountability. Carnivores are against any means of player policing that doesn't have to do with the point of a sword. FFA developers listen to this or think like this as well. Thus the failure of FFA PVP.
Good read, thanks!
I've been saying the same thing about Ultima Online's reputation (innocent / criminal / murderer) system.
UO also had a PvP trigger, but was in the form of choosing which version of the world you chose to play in.
If you wanted consentual only PvP, you played on the "Trammel" version of the world. If you wanted to be open for unconcentual PvP, you played on the "Felucia" mirror image of the world....which usually offered greater rewards, for the added risk....but contained the same dungeons, cities, etc.
Kind of a lazy PvP switch, but effective none the less.
I have yet to see a system as good as the TEF in SWG. Especially once they implemented the ability to flag yourself with commands (Not having to find a recruiter NPC, etc.).
The TEF gives you the ability to have conditions for attack such as being hunted by a Bounty Hunter, or being scanned by an enemy faction, having attacked enemy NPCs, etc. Great system, and just another moment in MMORPG history where devs failed to learn.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
That's true, and like real predators they will sometimes kill until they have exhausted the prey (who quit), and then the game experiences die off.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
I think a "jail" system that locks your characters in a cell for committing crimes could also work. This would make griefers less common, thus improving the overall experience for the PvE players.
Sure, the griefers will complain about being locked up. It won't matter if the developer thinks about ther population, though. If griefers account for 1% of a game's population, yet ruin the experience for 25% of the population, which one should the developers care more about leaving the game?
Yeah, from looking at a lot of the pictures and videos of repopulation, the menus and other things have that SWG look to them, I doubt that was by mistake. I am not a huge sci-fi in video games fan, which is why I didn't even try SWG when it came out, till a friend got me to try it, before the NGE/CU. I may have to give it a try though.
Playing a lot of LoL and Civ IV atm, while I wait for something.
Comparing open world stuff to arena stuff is just stupid anyway.
Fighting bandits out on the range is in no way similar to being a gladiator, even if both may even a person killing another person.
That these game types get lumped together at all just show how vapid the discourse gets as it basically amounts to penis measuring because they lack anything of real substance for their disquisition.
It's been a long time since I played a game where pvp and pve worked well together in an mmo. SWG always seemed to have open world battles going on and people really seemed to enjoy just shooting at each other trying to hold an area of the enemies towns.
The systems that force you to always pick one or the other seem to just drive a wedge between players and makes them not want to play. The games that do it also seem to suffer from a lack of population. EVE seems like it's the only game that's found an alternitve to this style that actually worked.
This was the dis:
Sure, you can enter spectator mode in Guild Wars or lobby shooter #1,138, but it's not the same world-vs.-game feeling you get when you run across a huge player battle taking place in Anchorhead.
That is quite dismissive of other PvP systems, isn't it? There was no real analysis here.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Dang.
I had almost forgot about swg's tef system. It did work suprisingly well. That is, except for the BH mark/jedi TEF bugs that they refused to fix until damn near the CU.
So many good ideas poorly done. Oh well.
That was a good read ~ plenty of people have mentioned this system but I've been clueless till now.
With strong penalties, bounties, and territorial systems, including smart flagging conditions, I'd really like to experience such a system for myself.
I have friends who worked on SWG, and their tales of broken systems, bugs, dropped features, and massive mismanagement were pretty eye opening.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
What do you think of also having deity aligned magical artifacts (a variety and cumulative effects for multiples) for these "factions"? Or scientific relics based on specialties in the case of Sci-Fi.
"Things" to fight over to add to the territorial competition. I'm thinking of balance issues in the following, i.e. not too overpowering but beneficial...
"Things" that do something for the whole mostly, such as mining bonuses for deities related to metal smithing (good and bad), or an ability to get to the hottest point of a forge at a lower cost.
Or weather control for weather type deities to add some general benefit to the entire faction (just as one example). So, a dark deity whose worshipers get benefits from darkness (as in stealth) could make a darker territorial realm at night to enhance their stealth activity. While a sun deity can bring brightness to ward off evil or a storm deity to clear weather for travel or cause storms for whatever (crop growing or large battles).
These "things" could come in vary valuable forms, like giant gemstones or golden scepters or statues. Giving value to non-aligned who might gain their possession.
Just throwing this out there to see response.
Once upon a time....
The main reason for the FFA systems is time sink. It's a poor attempt at cloning the EVE Online system. The time sink there being in the draw systems. You can get strategic reads on combat and determine if you will win or lose and based on that you will or won't fight. Where most to all FFA systems fall apart is, there are no docking points. Places you can store and stockpile arsenals of weapons like you can in EVE at the various stations. They don't work on overworld systems because it's much to easy to bottleneck the movement. Create choke points to farm all advancement by a potential enemy. They do exist in EVE too. Uedama system being a prime example. All regional high sec trade in EVE goes through Uedama. There are similar systems all through EVE and it's core to why most of Null is "dead". You need to traffic through these choke point systems to enter whole areas of the game. What these do though is again, they create PvP bottlenecks and time sinks as a result.
Why the Flag to PvP system from SWG was never replicated? It is not making the Development job easier. It doesn't create easy out's for game content. It requires structures in place that expect the game to be maintained over long periods of time. It requires dedicated development. Much like the Open world housing system from SWG was never duplicated, it requires a commitment and an anticipated, long term success for the game and world. Companies don't have the balls to go all out for their game. Plain and simple.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE