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I guess sub. based games truly are dead

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  • jgankumjgankum Member Posts: 153


    Originally posted by Calven
    At first I was mostly surprised by how these pre-order bonuses effectively cast aside the lore they build the game upon. But what I'm most surprised about is how people willingly throw money at developers for extra items they should be entitled to when they bought the game. I'm actually quite stunned by people who defend this development of buying content that should be in the game box. Why do you want to pay more.. for something you should be owning already? Why? Why on earth would you want to lose money that way? You should say "I will buy the game and be able to play everything in it, because that is what I've paid for. I will not accept that the developers restrict parts of the game I've already purchased and demand that I pay additional fees to unlock these features"Why do you pay extra money for something you should be having in the standard box?CE should offer real lige, tangible items that only they can have. I don't mind them getting fluff items as long as everyone else who also paid for the game can buy them in-game, for in-game currencies, at high prices. That way they remain rare and exclusive. But races are NOT vanity nor fluff items. In a game such as Elder Scrolls races are undoubtedly an important part of the lore. Everything involves the differences and conflicts between races. By excluding everyone else from a race, even though they paid for the game, ESO can no longer claim to be a subscription based game. It is, instead, a subscription game with limited content which can be unlocked by paying more money. I'm still baffled by the people who seemingly cannot fathom how they are entitled to the game and all its content upon purchasing it. Can anyone tell me why you'd want to pay more when you should be getting it with the standard edition?

    I'm kind of baffled as to why you think your "entitled" to something you are not willing to pay for. There are two editions of the game. You are only "entitled" to what each edition list as content.

    If you bought a base model car, do you truly believe your entitled to all of the premium features just because they exist?

  • rygard49rygard49 Member UncommonPosts: 973
    Originally posted by Calven

    At first I was mostly surprised by how these pre-order bonuses effectively cast aside the lore they build the game upon. But what I'm most surprised about is how people willingly throw money at developers for extra items they should be entitled to when they bought the game. I'm actually quite stunned by people who defend this development of buying content that should be in the game box. Why do you want to pay more.. for something you should be owning already? Why? Why on earth would you want to lose money that way? You should say "I will buy the game and be able to play everything in it, because that is what I've paid for. I will not accept that the developers restrict parts of the game I've already purchased and demand that I pay additional fees to unlock these features"

    Why do you pay extra money for something you should be having in the standard box?

    CE should offer real lige, tangible items that only they can have. I don't mind them getting fluff items as long as everyone else who also paid for the game can buy them in-game, for in-game currencies, at high prices. That way they remain rare and exclusive. But races are NOT vanity nor fluff items. In a game such as Elder Scrolls races are undoubtedly an important part of the lore. Everything involves the differences and conflicts between races. By excluding everyone else from a race, even though they paid for the game, ESO can no longer claim to be a subscription based game. It is, instead, a subscription game with limited content which can be unlocked by paying more money.

     

    I'm still baffled by the people who seemingly cannot fathom how they are entitled to the game and all its content upon purchasing it. Can anyone tell me why you'd want to pay more when you should be getting it with the standard edition?

    You're entitled to exactly what the developer tells you that you're paying for, and no more. If $60 buys me a basic bicycle with a bell, but $80 buys my friend that same bike with a horn and some sweet handlebar tassels, I'm not entitled to raise hell with the company that I didn't receive a horn and tassels with my lesser purchase.

    The same applies here. They spent development time above and beyond the scope of the regular game to make the imperial race. Part of the extra cost of the CE includes that invested time. They feel that they want to be compensated for that effort, and you're not entitled to that content unless you pay them what they think it's worth.

  • DamonVileDamonVile Member UncommonPosts: 4,818

    I don't know why people are flipping out about the CE but seem fine with a cash shop in a sub game. That's really the death blow to any p2p = better argument.

    They've been giving mounts away in CE boxes for years. The race is a low blow but will really only hurt the lore nuts. This company is obviously fine with pushing as far as they can go with all of this. Thing is...someone has to go too far one day, is it going to be them ?

  • GillleanGilllean Member Posts: 169

    Funny i signed to beta 10 accounts but none was invited BUT on all I recived Pre order info.

    GJ Zenimax NDA the game and sell pre order hmm  you fell it ? I fell smell of scum and obt but hurt

  • spizzspizz Member UncommonPosts: 1,971
    Originally posted by Calven

    At first I was mostly surprised by how these pre-order bonuses effectively cast aside the lore they build the game upon. But what I'm most surprised about is how people willingly throw money at developers for extra items they should be entitled to when they bought the game. I'm actually quite stunned by people who defend this development of buying content that should be in the game box. Why do you want to pay more.. for something you should be owning already? Why? Why on earth would you want to lose money that way? You should say "I will buy the game and be able to play everything in it, because that is what I've paid for. I will not accept that the developers restrict parts of the game I've already purchased and demand that I pay additional fees to unlock these features"

    Why do you pay extra money for something you should be having in the standard box?

    CE should offer real lige, tangible items that only they can have. I don't mind them getting fluff items as long as everyone else who also paid for the game can buy them in-game, for in-game currencies, at high prices. That way they remain rare and exclusive. But races are NOT vanity nor fluff items. In a game such as Elder Scrolls races are undoubtedly an important part of the lore. Everything involves the differences and conflicts between races. By excluding everyone else from a race, even though they paid for the game, ESO can no longer claim to be a subscription based game. It is, instead, a subscription game with limited content which can be unlocked by paying more money.

     

    I'm still baffled by the people who seemingly cannot fathom how they are entitled to the game and all its content upon purchasing it. Can anyone tell me why you'd want to pay more when you should be getting it with the standard edition?

     

    This is exactly my thought about the lore. If you did read about ESO and factions there is so much written about dominant races and factions.  Ingame the world lives from diversity of regions and culture, all depandant which faction you join and where your adventure start.

    Why suddenly such a harsh change in the form of  "hey lets mix all races up and factions have nothing to do anymore with culture/region and dominant races" ??

     

    Originally posted by Cougan
    Originally posted by Entinerint
    Originally posted by spizz
    Originally posted by Rusque

    In the last two decades I've seen many CE's of various games, ordered quite a few of them myself. Most often paying a bit much for what was received, sometimes feeling let down after opening them up. This is really a very well put together CE and I hope that the Imperial race is permanently exclusive to CE players (it likely won't be, but that's okay I wasn't expecting something this good anyway).

    Retail Box Imperial CE for me

    Digital Imperial CE for wife

     

    I'm a happy camper, I'm sure others are as well.

     

    * Explorers Pack

    PLAY ANY RACE
    IN ANY ALLIANCE

    This is actually what I dont like that much, races should be bound to certain alliances. Whats the point to have races and alliances when suddenly everyone who has pre-purchased can jump around.

     

     

     

    By the way.....

    Starting April 4th, 2014 all customers who pre-purchased the Digital Standard Edition can upgrade to the Digital Imperial Edition

    Why the eff should races be bound to alliances?  That would make ZERO sense for TES.  ESO =/= DAOC

     

    To be fair it is called Alliance Vs Alliance not race vs race or elves vs nords lol so I agree

     

    You are fighting for your countries of your faction, maybe some stray imperials and other races settled there before the war even began. Im sure they wouldnt all be imprisoned or executed.

     

     

     

     

    Each faction is dominated by a certain culture and races ingame and this reflects also the lore and aswell the look of such areas. Whats the point when suddenly more decide to play a nord race but join a faction in the "pacific region", this doesnt fit.

     

    The dominant race of the Ebonheart Pact was the Nord. The Dunmer and, eventually, the Argonian joined forces along with the Nords to survive the Second Akaviri Invasion. The leader of the faction was High King Jorunn. He, however, did not have all the power over the provinces, as a Great Moot was summoned, a council of all the allied races, whom he had to hear out.[10]

     

    The dominant race of the Daggerfall Covenant was the Breton. With the help of their merchant' skillful diplomacy, the Daggerfall Covenant manages to ally with the races of Redguard and Orsimer. The faction was led by the merchant High King Emeric.[9]

     

    The faction's dominant race was the Altmer, who ensured that the races of Bosmer and Khajiit would join their cause. The Aldmeri Dominion was led by the young Altmer Queen Ayrenn.[8]

     

    They all change this suddenly because they want to make some cash with pre-orders ? WTF

  • atuerstaratuerstar Member Posts: 234

    I was going to say something about rewarding financial elitism with a good old white power race to lord over the peasants but - I was already not buying into this terrible money grab. To me this is just another nail in a coffin that was already welded shut.

  • MibletMiblet Member Posts: 333
    Originally posted by rygard49

    The same applies here. They spent development time above and beyond the scope of the regular game to make the imperial race. Part of the extra cost of the CE includes that invested time. They feel that they want to be compensated for that effort, and you're not entitled to that content unless you pay them what they think it's worth.

    That's the thing though, the game is still in development.  Still has 2 months left (well a bit under but not far off).  There is nothing to suggest this wasn't in the scope of their development <snip! damn NDA>.

    This is Day 1 on disk DLC, it was produced within the budget of the original product and is being sold as it is because selling a £50 game with a £20 CE bonus upgrade gets more apathy than a £70 game.

    You are however spot on and it is Zenimax's right to charge whatever the hell it wants.  It's up to consumers to choose if they support the actions of the companies, and I have no doubt this will get a huge thumbs up.

  • d_20d_20 Member RarePosts: 1,878

    To me, an Elder Scrolls game is about freedom, so any race/faction combination should be in it from the beginning.

     

    Pets in an ES game are lame. Okay, a dog or a wolf, maybe.

     

    Seriously, that is cash-shop-type garbage.  It does kind of go against what Zeni were saying about their reasons for this being a sub-based game.

     

    People will say, yeah, "they have to eat." But if they actually make a good game that people  want to play, and if the sub-based game is actually viable in today's market, they will make money. They don't need to trash up the game with tacky items. I'm not saying this is what's happening. But it is a slippery slope and we've all seen it happen before.


  • psiicpsiic Member RarePosts: 1,642
    Pfft whatever our whole guild just bought the game. 
  • spizzspizz Member UncommonPosts: 1,971
    Originally posted by d_20

    To me, an Elder Scrolls game is about freedom, so any race/faction combination should be in it from the beginning.

     

    Pets in an ES game are lame. Okay, a dog or a wolf, maybe.

     

    Seriously, that is cash-shop-type garbage.  It does kind of go against what Zeni were saying about their reasons for this being a sub-based game.

     

    People will say, yeah, "they have to eat." But if they actually make a good game that people  want to play, and if the sub-based game is actually viable in today's market, they will make money. They don't need to trash up the game with tacky items. I'm not saying this is what's happening. But it is a slippery slope and we've all seen it happen before.

    What do you think about the Lore and description of Factions about ESO in their wiki ? Because the dominance of certain races combined in factions is written here and not just a mix up. Are people defining EOS suddenly by themselves hehe

     

    http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Factions_%28Online%29

     

  • KuinnKuinn Member UncommonPosts: 2,072
    People are looking at it from the wrong angle, it's the cash shop invading every style of games. I was shocked when I learned that Dead Space 3 had cash shop in it, thank god nothing in the shop was neccessary for a proper gameplay experience but still it was crazy a game like that had cash shop. Wont be long until 9 out of 10 games has cash shop regardless what style or payment method games they are.
  • temporary_usertemporary_user Member Posts: 6
    Originally posted by rockin_ufo
    Originally posted by deakon
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by deakon
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by muffins89
    collectors editions have been giving exclusive digital content for a decade.

    Like a whole new race and any race/faction combination possible? Yeah, I dont think so...

    Any race/faction doesn't cost you any extra you just have to buy any version of the game

    Any pre-order version.

     

    That costs you no extra money at all

    So explain to me how if I buy this game a month down the line (for obvious reasons like making sure the game actually has substance *cough*NDA hiding a lot of info* and me not being able to set down a 60$ investment. How will I, dear sir, be able to play with friends in another race or get the Imperial faction?

     

    You'll have to purchase the Explorer's Pack from the cash shop.  Pre-orders include the Explorer's Pack for free.  Yes, it's complete BS.  Unfortunately it's not going to stop the sheeple from flocking.  Welcome to the future of shady MMORPG business practice.

  • temporary_usertemporary_user Member Posts: 6
    Originally posted by rygard49
    Originally posted by rockin_ufo
    Originally posted by deakon
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by deakon
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by muffins89
    collectors editions have been giving exclusive digital content for a decade.

    Like a whole new race and any race/faction combination possible? Yeah, I dont think so...

    Any race/faction doesn't cost you any extra you just have to buy any version of the game

    Any pre-order version.

     

    That costs you no extra money at all

    So explain to me how if I buy this game a month down the line (for obvious reasons like making sure the game actually has substance *cough*NDA hiding a lot of info* and me not being able to set down a 60$ investment. How will I, dear sir, be able to play with friends in another race or get the Imperial faction?

    Play with friends in any faction by making a character of one of that factions races.

    The Imperial race you shouldn't feel entitled to at all. As of now, the only people playing as an Imperial will be those who have invested more money than you were willing to. You may be able to unlock it later, but that's a chance you'll have to take in order to play it safe and wait to see how the game is.

     

    I think the people that have invested more money should have to pay a higher subscription fee every month to maintain their exclusive bonus.  Say $20 monthly instead of $15.  I mean, there is nothing saying they are entitled to retain that bonus beyond the initial month included with the box price.

     

    That's only sort of sarcasm.  The other part of me would like to see it happen, just because people get what they deserve... and in this case, ask for as well.

  • UlorikUlorik Member UncommonPosts: 179
    Just go away already and leave us play the game in peace......your loss, not mine
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332

    You must not knowingly mislead or have omissions when trading to a customer."Consumer protection act"

    This Imperial race did not suddenly pop up ,so they KNEW for quite some time there was more races than they let on.Even still now they are not coming completely clear as to what or how players will interact with these items in game if not CE buyers.

    This is also LAW.If by your omissions and misleading conduct the customer may have made or changed their decision,then yes Zenimax broke the law.I would say without question this would cause changes in decisions and Zeni was being VERY misleading ,leading up to this point.

    I would never hold a grudge towards a game because games are just code,but crooked and misleading people i do not like and someone or few people at Zeni are not cool but instead willing to stoop to any means to get a buck.

    They must have known for several months they had another race in the works and not once let it be known.

    I would like to know what Zenimax definition of a subscription is because that is again misleading.We as long time consumers have always assumed a sub means you get to play "ALL" the content.Just because a couple or few devs have been getting away with it,does not make it right.That is like selling you a car then after buying it ,they say,oh if you want a steering wheel you have to pay us another 500 bucks.You would be under the assumption that buying a car you get the WHOLE car.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    Originally posted by Raoul9753

    The mount is not faster. You only get it for free.  "Explore Tamriel faster" is saying that you can move faster on a horse and you have it from the very beginning.

     

    The race isnt even that big of a deal, since the racial skills are not that impressive.

     

    Bonus experience if you play with a friend. That will become common work when the "get a friend to play the game"gets on.

     

    You guys are seriously overreactiong about a trivial thing.

     

     

    Either way,weather you consider it trivial and you are not accurate in your assessment btw but none the less if someone else DOES consider it important,either way ZENI is being misleading and that is against the LAW.

    Just look at the mount,WHO says it is not faster because they are saying it IS faster 40% faster.That alone is misleading is it not?

    Who says the other CE edition will or will not have access to that content,nobody knows for sure,so again MISLEADING.

    THAT is the problem,not weather you consider it trivial or not,that is VERY poor business practices to be unclear,misleading,not cool at all.

     

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • eldariseldaris Member UncommonPosts: 353


    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    The difference here is that Firor explicitly stated that they chose P2P because they didn't think pay-gates and cash shop "nickel and dime" methods were a good fit for the game, as opposed to B2P or some other sub-free option. He also said no cash shop or mtx, but they're doing mtx and and will have a shop where they sill account services and "fun stuff" (whatever that is). If they would just be honest and up front about what they're doing I wouldn't care how they monetized.

    It's not much different than TOR, except we see that TOR only became really successful after they dropped the box fee and made the sub optional. After that they became one of the most successful cash shops in the last year.


    Same Firor who spoke about faction pride ? It seems he, like a lot of other developers from first gen of mmorpgs, is just one hit wonder after all. Warhammer(old daoc developers) failed,Aoc(Funcom - Anarchy online) is not doing well too and TESO ...

  • deveilbladdeveilblad Member UncommonPosts: 193
    Originally posted by jgankum

     


    Originally posted by Calven
    At first I was mostly surprised by how these pre-order bonuses effectively cast aside the lore they build the game upon. But what I'm most surprised about is how people willingly throw money at developers for extra items they should be entitled to when they bought the game. I'm actually quite stunned by people who defend this development of buying content that should be in the game box. Why do you want to pay more.. for something you should be owning already? Why? Why on earth would you want to lose money that way? You should say "I will buy the game and be able to play everything in it, because that is what I've paid for. I will not accept that the developers restrict parts of the game I've already purchased and demand that I pay additional fees to unlock these features"

     

    Why do you pay extra money for something you should be having in the standard box?

    CE should offer real lige, tangible items that only they can have. I don't mind them getting fluff items as long as everyone else who also paid for the game can buy them in-game, for in-game currencies, at high prices. That way they remain rare and exclusive. But races are NOT vanity nor fluff items. In a game such as Elder Scrolls races are undoubtedly an important part of the lore. Everything involves the differences and conflicts between races. By excluding everyone else from a race, even though they paid for the game, ESO can no longer claim to be a subscription based game. It is, instead, a subscription game with limited content which can be unlocked by paying more money.

     

    I'm still baffled by the people who seemingly cannot fathom how they are entitled to the game and all its content upon purchasing it. Can anyone tell me why you'd want to pay more when you should be getting it with the standard edition?


     

    I'm kind of baffled as to why you think your "entitled" to something you are not willing to pay for. There are two editions of the game. You are only "entitled" to what each edition list as content.

    If you bought a base model car, do you truly believe your entitled to all of the premium features just because they exist?

    If you buy a car, you expect all the parts to be in right ? You'd find it normal to buy a car open the hood and OH WELL there's no windshield washer container...?? The vendor then tells you that if have to pay more for it, because you can still ride around with your car without it... It's just less convenient...

     

    Race choice is not a premium feature, it's one of the core features of any game... You can still play the game without it just like the car analogy, but it's a core feature everyone expects to have that is missing...

  • CazNeergCazNeerg Member Posts: 2,198
    Originally posted by deveilblad

    If you buy a car, you expect all the parts to be in right ? You'd find it normal to buy a car open the hood and OH WELL there's no windshield washer container...?? The vendor then tells you that if have to pay more for it, because you can still ride around with your car without it... It's just less convenient... 

    Race choice is not a premium feature, it's one of the core features of any game... You can still play the game without it just like the car analogy, but it's a core feature everyone expects to have that is missing...

    Missing?  You get nine choices with the base game.  Your argument is like saying that if a company offers a car with nine different colors of leather seats for the same price, they shouldn't be allowed to offer a tenth color of leather at a higher price.

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  • deveilbladdeveilblad Member UncommonPosts: 193
    Originally posted by CazNeerg
    Originally posted by deveilblad

    If you buy a car, you expect all the parts to be in right ? You'd find it normal to buy a car open the hood and OH WELL there's no windshield washer container...?? The vendor then tells you that if have to pay more for it, because you can still ride around with your car without it... It's just less convenient... 

    Race choice is not a premium feature, it's one of the core features of any game... You can still play the game without it just like the car analogy, but it's a core feature everyone expects to have that is missing...

    Missing?  You get nine choices with the base game.  Your argument is like saying that if a company offers a car with nine different colors of leather seats for the same price, they shouldn't be allowed to offer a tenth color of leather at a higher price.

    If the tenth color of leather gives your car special unique ''skills'', then yes that is what I'm saying. Racial skill lines are very unique and important in ESO, it's not like WoW's +0,5% crit or whatever, in ESO it actually changes things...

     

    This is a very not well hidden pre-play cash shop lol... How some people don't see it is beyond me ...

  • DalanonDalanon Member UncommonPosts: 126

    The collectors edition stuff looks pretty standard.  For those getting so upset over the extra race to play, that's essentially just a skin for your character and totally cosmetic so I don't see what the big deal is. 

    Both digital editions come with the explorers pack of stuff and the early access which seems fair enough if you don't want to shell out the extra twenty dollars for the imperial junk and the pet.  I think it's nice for Zenimax to show appreciation to the people that want to support the game early buy giving them some digital goodies and early access.

    I guess the rings from the imperial edition are a bit over the top in my opinion.  I don't like purchased xp bonuses, hopefully its very minimal.

    Not all who wander are lost...

  • Heavy-armor-warriorHeavy-armor-warrior Member Posts: 222
    Originally posted by Yamota

    The whole point of getting a sub. based game is that everyone pays the same fee and get the same starting conditions. But lo and behold, collectors edition not only gives you bonus experience, a faster mount and a completely new race?

    This is so wrong on atleast two ways. First, obviously, the fact that if you buy a collectors edition you will get significant exclusive content but also sets a precedence for the inevitable cash shop. Do you really think that if they offered this race in the collectors edition, they aren't going to offer the same or similar in the cash shop? Effectively turning this game to your typical F2P game, except it is not F2P. It is box+SUB and now also exclusive content which you need to pay for on top of the montly sub.

    So true subscription based games, as we know it, are dead. RIP.

    Either accept this cash shop plus P2P nonsense or move on from the MMO genre. Looking more and more to do the latter. Sad to see such a promising genre which started with UO (for me atleast) get turned into this.

    Skyrim has a collectors edition, right? This is still a TES game people. We are forgetting this.

  • iridescenceiridescence Member UncommonPosts: 1,552

    Nah, just because ESO appears to have  a bad and exploitive model (which i think will backfire n them big time) I think the sub model is alive and well because most games realize that offering anything in addition to cosmetics for sale above the sub price in a sub game is totally unreasonable.

     

    The reality though is that "sub" now equals "sub with a cosmetic cash shop". Being totally against any kind of cash shop is kind of pointless as all companies now realize that cash shop=free money. ESO is taking this to a ludicrous extreme though expecting you to buy racial unlocks in addition to your box price. I hope not many people will go along with that.

     

     

     

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,254
    Originally posted by Heavy-armor-warrior
    Originally posted by Yamota

    The whole point of getting a sub. based game is that everyone pays the same fee and get the same starting conditions. But lo and behold, collectors edition not only gives you bonus experience, a faster mount and a completely new race?

    This is so wrong on atleast two ways. First, obviously, the fact that if you buy a collectors edition you will get significant exclusive content but also sets a precedence for the inevitable cash shop. Do you really think that if they offered this race in the collectors edition, they aren't going to offer the same or similar in the cash shop? Effectively turning this game to your typical F2P game, except it is not F2P. It is box+SUB and now also exclusive content which you need to pay for on top of the montly sub.

    So true subscription based games, as we know it, are dead. RIP.

    Either accept this cash shop plus P2P nonsense or move on from the MMO genre. Looking more and more to do the latter. Sad to see such a promising genre which started with UO (for me atleast) get turned into this.

    Skyrim has a collectors edition, right? This is still a TES game people. We are forgetting this.

    Yeah, but you could play an Imperial if you bought the standard edition of Skyrim.

  • iridescenceiridescence Member UncommonPosts: 1,552
    Originally posted by Heavy-armor-warrior
    Originally posted by Yamota

     

    Skyrim has a collectors edition, right? This is still a TES game people. We are forgetting this.

     

    Skyrim doesn't have a sub.

    Do you get anything non-cosmetic in the CE? (I honestly don't remember  but  even if you do it's a single player non-sub game so apples and oranges).

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