They obviously did their market research (who wouldn't with 100mil+ invested into a product), they know what it cost them to make the product. Bam.
If you don't like the price, vote with your wallet by not buying.
That's how you influence the demand side of the equation.
If you think they messed up on their part by setting the price inappropiately, no need to moan and whine, just be patient, wait for it and laugh when they pay dearly for misjudging the market. (in case you are right)
They obviously did their market research (who wouldn't with 100mil+ invested into a product), they know what it cost them to make the product. Bam.
If you don't like the price, vote with your wallet by not buying.
That's how you influence the demand side of the equation.
If you think they messed up on their part by setting the price inappropiately, no need to moan and whine, just be patient, wait for it and laugh when they pay dearly for misjudging the market. (in case you are right)
Lets remember that the supply of a digital product is unlimited. It is not a function of both supply and demand, as it would be with a physical product. In this particular situation, they have done everything they can to boost initial demand with shiny digital baubles. It doesn't appear that they are in for the long haul.
Originally posted by stealthbr I am absolutely baffled that the majority conforms and supports the inflation of prices. It's no wonder the economy in the US is an absolute wreck.
It's always been like this.
Do you think $225 for 1/4 ounce of perfume is reasonable? The market supports that pricing...because it's a luxury.
Gaming is a luxury, and it's producers can charge a price they feel their market will buy.
Pure economics.
A new title won't get away with $80 and a $15/mon sub. But an established franchise that's older than 10 years...can.
And people will still gobble it up. Just like they would pay $500 for an iPhone.
Back in the day, final fantasy games on snes (and other rpgs) were 80 and sometimes 90 dollars. 20 to 30 dollars more than other cartridges. I completely agree with the above. If the market dictates that this is the price for an expansion race then whats the problem.
If the game was out 3 months and then came out with a race (and the other goodies) for 20 bucks would it matter? From what I gather, no missions are hidden and nothing else is blocked off.
This sense of entitlement is a sad commentary on today's spoiled gamer. People are complaining about collectors editions. Something in almost every game, mmorpg and nonmmorpg. How many countless games offer free items, levels and such that boost a player past where other players would start. ESO offers nothing of the such, just an extra race.
Ive always been a fan of the luxury mmorpg market. I'd prefer to see this expand into private servers and extra perks.
Originally posted by Helleri What would be unfair is if the The Elder Scrolls Online Imperial Edition, with all that commemorative stuff was the only option and it cost $99.00 USD. Because that would cut out people who can't afford it. I think this is the kind of thing you only get to rant about if they go F2P after raking it in on box sales.
What is so unfair? It is their product. You don't have to buy it. It is just a computer game, it is not a necessity of life. If you can't afford it, don't play it .. watch a movie, or watch tv instead.
They are under no obligation to make computer games affordable to everyone.
Yea! Screw the customers! Who needs them anyway? Narrius, you should be appointed CEO with your enormous brilliance and administrative skills!
Well actualy Narius is completely right on point. You can't afford it ? Don't buy. Nobody is forcing you to.
The only point of your posts seems to be anger that what you wanted is out of your financial reach. Well I'd like an H5D50 complete system but don't have the money. Do I complain about Hasselblad being unfair to customers ? Will that accomplish anything ?
The whole uproar has no point other than throwing mud.
The time to ring the alarm bell is at the first sign of smoke, not after the house is burning down around you. I can't fall in with calling what Zenimax is doing particularly underhanded when it's business as usual for virtually all of gaming. Gamers have become acclimatized to paying for DLCs, Season Passes, massive pre-orders and founder's packs, betas, early releases, alphas, and even kickstarters with nothing more than a whiteboard and a big name attached to them. This is not news, this is not egregious. This is the no-duh fallout from a gaming public that increasingly behaves like a pack of addicts, gulping down whatever the newest fix is, heedless of the poisonous practices that come bundled with it.
If Zenimax/Bethesda wants to maximize their income, why wouldn't they go in this direction? The line between what's acceptable vs what isn't has been redrawn over and over again so often in the past few years that making a stand here seems particularly arbitrary. This idea of paying one price and getting all the content has been dead in gaming for how long now? Wake up, Rip van Winkle, it's not 2003 anymore. This is the tip of a genre-spanning iceberg and devs have put forward far more exploitative means of getting at our wallets than a shrug-worthy race; they also have many more ideas waiting in the wings, no doubt.
I remember a time when pre-ordering simply meant being able to pick up a copy from the store without worrying that they'd be sold out. Times certainly change, especially when most people have been passively watching from the sidelines. And to show just how pervasive and powerful this new trend is, even knowing what I know part of me still wants to pre-order this game just for all the trifling goodies.
This is a Sub Game, that means you pay $15 a month every month to get access to content .
When they have decided to go this route, they specifically stated that they choose this model to ensure everyone have access to 100% content so they are not going the B2P or F2P model. They will stand their ground with the P2P model instead.
100% content is not Locked race for CE editions
Sure you can pay more, but should you ??
That is the question, its not about $20 dollars , its about it being sub based game that will have locked content
If it was B2P or F2P , then paying extra for extra content versus those that doesn't pay extra is accepted.
But as an Sub based P2P game, you are asking for Monthly payments for those that buys the Standard edition, without having the ability or chance to experience a part of the game.
That it self is wrong.
There is no precedent , over thousands of MMO that has been developed, or is being developed, you will not find an Sub based MMO that begin with an Locked Race that is only available if you get the Collector's edition.
You get pets, boosts, but nothing in the form that ESO is doing.
Doesn't matter how you spin it, it is the wrong thing to do, and its definitely losing me as a customer. I was on the fence before, but now, its definitely not a buy. Not even gonna wait to see if the game is any good, with their business model, it will only get worse from here.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
I agree with the OP in that charging for additional races, after box and sub fees (UNLESS that race comes in an expansion) is a bit much.
But, as others have said, no one is putting a gun to your head to make you play. Time will tell if their gambit pays off. Personally I see this game going the way of SWTOR, but only time shall tell. As for me, I most likely will not be playing at launch, but that choice has nothing to do with the sub model, everything to do with the combat.
You can't afford it ? Don't buy. Nobody is forcing you to.
For most (if not all), it's not a problem of money. It's a problem of ethics, and attempting to hide micro transactions in order to buy essential parts of the base game in a collector edition (and in a pre-order too), and all this in a sub based game, and also all this when Firor repeatedly said in many interviews that while the game will have a shop, the core game will be available 100% with the $15 monthly fee.
That's the problem most of us have. And not a petty money problem.
First saying "most" feel the way you do is ridiculous. "Most" do not feel the way you do unless by "most" you are referring to the vocal minority of haters that spam ever post about any new game they have a crusade against. If "most" people felt like you did they would not be selling #2 on Amazon.
I guess we can put this up as another failed crusade by a select few.
"Most" means most of those who disagree with that decision. I thought it was obvious, my bad for overestimating the readers, something a writer should never do.
And about the "failed crusade" thing, since you feel like starting that kind of stuff...
56% won't pre-order this game. Not to bad for a failure.
Also... about the Amazon thing, since you also want to talk about that... you started it, remember.
#1 - Tomb Raider - A game that came out a year ago and is having a sale ($8.99).
#2 - Elder Scrolls Online Imperial - An Elder Scrolls MMORPG that just released it's pre-orders yesterday.
#3 - Max Payne 3 and Grand Theft Auto IV Bundle - Game that came out 2 years ago. Game that came out 6 years ago.
#4 - Bioshock Infinite - Game that came out 10 months ago and is on sale ($13.26). <- Good Deal
#5 - Hitman Absolution - Game that came out 2 years ago and is on sale ($7.49)
Where's the competition? Oh yeah, a brand new game does better than 2 years old games on a sale. Congrats, big success indeed.
Most people on a website already divided between sandbox folk and themepark folk (probably 50/50) aren't going to buy the game. I can bet you can put that poll on wildstar, final fantasy and many other games and get similar if not equal results.
As for trying to downplay sales in the top 5. There are other games out as well that didnt even make the list. Make no problem with it, Elder Scrolls is on.
This is a Sub Game, that means you pay $15 a month every month to get access to content .
When they have decided to go this route, they specifically stated that they choose this model to ensure everyone have access to 100% content so they are not going the B2P or F2P model. They will stand their ground with the P2P model instead.
100% content is not Locked race for CE editions
Sure you can pay more, but should you ??
That is the question, its not about $20 dollars , its about it being sub based game that will have locked content
If it was B2P or F2P , then paying extra for extra content versus those that doesn't pay extra is accepted.
But as an Sub based P2P game, you are asking for Monthly payments for those that buys the Standard edition, without having the ability or chance to experience a part of the game.
That it self is wrong.
There is no precedent , over thousands of MMO that has been developed, or is being developed, you will not find an Sub based MMO that begin with an Locked Race that is only available if you get the Collector's edition.
You get pets, boosts, but nothing in the form that ESO is doing.
Doesn't matter how you spin it, it is the wrong thing to do, and its definitely losing me as a customer. I was on the fence before, but now, its definitely not a buy. Not even gonna wait to see if the game is any good, with their business model, it will only get worse from here.
Well, Star Trek Online offered Federated Romulan, Klingon and Liberated Borg with the purchase of a lifetime sub. However, we know how well that went over.
With that said, I do agree with you. The fact that Imperials are only available with an additional purchase (basically day 1 DLC) and that with any pre-order you unlock the racial faction locks. All of this while the NDA is still full active.
Locking the Imperials away behind a $20 gate in a game that's already going to cost you a monthly sub. Making their faction locks useless as long as you pre-order. The whole thing smacks of some Perfect World Entertainment scam. Both of these pre-order and CE bonuses could have been added in game with some type of a quest series, which could have been really cool and memorable. Plus something to really work for. However, they went the douchebag route and decided to monetize both.
It makes me sad, because I love the ES series and I wanted to love this game. However, just as many predicted at the announcement of ESO, it was going to get completely screwed up and it was going to be a tremendous disservice to the ES brand.
And until the gaming community gets our collective heads out of our collective asses this will continue.
Yes it takes a lot of money to make a good mmo, but good mmos in the past have never needed or used these kinds of tactics to make money, which would make anyone suspicious that this is not a good mmo.
Games also didn't cost 100 million dollars to produce, either.
If WoW was made today, the cost would probably get to 200mil (and probably will be the cost of Titan in the end).
How do you expect a F2P to pay for that? Out of thin air?
Yes, if ESO was f2p and this was an $80 founders pack we were talking about then your argument would be spot on and it would be quite cheep compared to say other f2p titles that have offered founders packs such as: Neverwinter, Asura Kingdom, or Scarlet Blade.
Except the fact that founder pacts for this level of bonus is usually in the $150-$200 range. Also founder's packs don't have 25% off coupons from any 3rd party sites.
but seriously, I have never heard enthusiasts of any other activity (gaming) complain so much about the costs. In relation to JUST ABOUT EVERY OTHER HOBBY, gaming is pretty damn cheap. Let's say, for example, you pay $80 for ESO and play it for 3 months. The first month is included, so that's $110 for 3 months, or $1.22/day. You can't even buy a cup of coffee for that. MMO gamers are very jaded. And I'm not trying to troll here, I just think we need to put things into perspective. They spent 200 million dollars making this game, that's not chump change.
yes yes you can buy a cup of coffee for a buck at mcdonalds... all sizes are 1 dollar and its decent coffee it is a bit much imo but maybe the games super awesome and worth it i dont know i do think the purchase price is a mistake it will throw off many people they should have a hybrid plan like say rent to buy you can play for 3 months but then you have to kick in part of what you owe yet
for example id have the starter pack set at 15 thatd would be good for a month than yould have to pay 30 thats sub and "rental fee" that would go on till you pay off the box price
You can't afford it ? Don't buy. Nobody is forcing you to.
For most (if not all), it's not a problem of money. It's a problem of ethics, and attempting to hide micro transactions in order to buy essential parts of the base game in a collector edition (and in a pre-order too), and all this in a sub based game, and also all this when Firor repeatedly said in many interviews that while the game will have a shop, the core game will be available 100% with the $15 monthly fee.
That's the problem most of us have. And not a petty money problem.
First saying "most" feel the way you do is ridiculous. "Most" do not feel the way you do unless by "most" you are referring to the vocal minority of haters that spam ever post about any new game they have a crusade against. If "most" people felt like you did they would not be selling #2 on Amazon.
I guess we can put this up as another failed crusade by a select few.
"Most" means most of those who disagree with that decision. I thought it was obvious, my bad for overestimating the readers, something a writer should never do.
And about the "failed crusade" thing, since you feel like starting that kind of stuff...
#1 - Tomb Raider - A game that came out a year ago and is having a sale ($8.99).
#2 - Elder Scrolls Online Imperial - An Elder Scrolls MMORPG that just released it's pre-orders yesterday.
#3 - Max Payne 3 and Grand Theft Auto IV Bundle - Game that came out 2 years ago. Game that came out 6 years ago.
#4 - Bioshock Infinite - Game that came out 10 months ago and is on sale ($13.26). <- Good Deal
#5 - Hitman Absolution - Game that came out 2 years ago and is on sale ($7.49)
Where's the competition? Oh yeah, a brand new game does better than 2 years old games on a sale. Congrats, big success indeed.
That's not a bad sample of MMORPG.com's population, but it's not exactly a representative sample of the population of people who are going to buy the game. "Most" people only includes the people on this site. In regards to the poll itself, about 38% won't buy the game. About 24% aren't ordering right now, with no promise to not order later. That leaves 38% of people preordering. Compare that to statistics for pretty much any game that's released to the general population of gamers where only 10% to 20% of the gamer population ever buys the game and 38% preordering the game sounds really good. Really, really good. Never mind an additional 24% who may be waiting for the game to release before deciding to purchase or not (a wise move). I do not think your poll is something that can be generalized to assess the performance of TESO.
You left GTA V out of the results there. ESO (the topic under discussion) is #2. Those games are at the top, and the regular ESO is right up there with them. Just like every other preorder for every other game that has a preorder and a "special" edition, people are eating it up. They might regret their purchase later, but that's obviously not stopping them from buying it now.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
You left GTA V out of the results there. ESO (the topic under discussion) is #2. Those games are at the top, and the regular ESO is right up there with them. Just like every other preorder for every other game that has a preorder and a "special" edition, people are eating it up. They might regret their purchase later, but that's obviously not stopping them from buying it now.
I'll say this one more time I guess. That list is of PC games. I'm not sure that beating a PS3 game that was released 5 months ago is a great indicator of booming success. Especially considering that the pre-order was released yesterday. But it's an Amazon thing, so none of it should probably be taken seriously at all.
Comments
Zenimax didn't arbitrarily set a price.
That's not how the free market works.
Demand and supply sets the price.
They obviously did their market research (who wouldn't with 100mil+ invested into a product), they know what it cost them to make the product. Bam.
If you don't like the price, vote with your wallet by not buying.
That's how you influence the demand side of the equation.
If you think they messed up on their part by setting the price inappropiately, no need to moan and whine, just be patient, wait for it and laugh when they pay dearly for misjudging the market. (in case you are right)
Lets remember that the supply of a digital product is unlimited. It is not a function of both supply and demand, as it would be with a physical product. In this particular situation, they have done everything they can to boost initial demand with shiny digital baubles. It doesn't appear that they are in for the long haul.
Bless your bald little head. *pat*
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
It did for ME3. There is every reason to believe it will here also. The only question is at what point, will Zenimax do the right thing.
It's #6 in the overall video game category. I don't think there's any chance this thing isn't selling a bajillion copies.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Agreed, but who's to say they wouldn't have sold 2 bajillion copies if they hadn't chosen such shady business tactics.
Well in that case the premise of this thread is answered.
No, they clearly didn't go too far.
Speculating about the worst possible outcome that you can think of and then hitting some forums to slate the company?
Why not wait and see before you cast stones with no facts.
If I made a product, and believed I could charge 20,000$ for it and people would still buy it, I would definitely price it accordingly.
Cost is often induces perceived value.
Why else do you think insurance companies charge you a 20$ co-pay and send you a bill saying the treatment cost them 2500$. We love that! sadly...
-WL
Werewolf Online(R) - Lead Developer
Back in the day, final fantasy games on snes (and other rpgs) were 80 and sometimes 90 dollars. 20 to 30 dollars more than other cartridges. I completely agree with the above. If the market dictates that this is the price for an expansion race then whats the problem.
If the game was out 3 months and then came out with a race (and the other goodies) for 20 bucks would it matter? From what I gather, no missions are hidden and nothing else is blocked off.
This sense of entitlement is a sad commentary on today's spoiled gamer. People are complaining about collectors editions. Something in almost every game, mmorpg and nonmmorpg. How many countless games offer free items, levels and such that boost a player past where other players would start. ESO offers nothing of the such, just an extra race.
Ive always been a fan of the luxury mmorpg market. I'd prefer to see this expand into private servers and extra perks.
Well actualy Narius is completely right on point. You can't afford it ? Don't buy. Nobody is forcing you to.
The only point of your posts seems to be anger that what you wanted is out of your financial reach. Well I'd like an H5D50 complete system but don't have the money. Do I complain about Hasselblad being unfair to customers ? Will that accomplish anything ?
The whole uproar has no point other than throwing mud.
The time to ring the alarm bell is at the first sign of smoke, not after the house is burning down around you. I can't fall in with calling what Zenimax is doing particularly underhanded when it's business as usual for virtually all of gaming. Gamers have become acclimatized to paying for DLCs, Season Passes, massive pre-orders and founder's packs, betas, early releases, alphas, and even kickstarters with nothing more than a whiteboard and a big name attached to them. This is not news, this is not egregious. This is the no-duh fallout from a gaming public that increasingly behaves like a pack of addicts, gulping down whatever the newest fix is, heedless of the poisonous practices that come bundled with it.
If Zenimax/Bethesda wants to maximize their income, why wouldn't they go in this direction? The line between what's acceptable vs what isn't has been redrawn over and over again so often in the past few years that making a stand here seems particularly arbitrary. This idea of paying one price and getting all the content has been dead in gaming for how long now? Wake up, Rip van Winkle, it's not 2003 anymore. This is the tip of a genre-spanning iceberg and devs have put forward far more exploitative means of getting at our wallets than a shrug-worthy race; they also have many more ideas waiting in the wings, no doubt.
I remember a time when pre-ordering simply meant being able to pick up a copy from the store without worrying that they'd be sold out. Times certainly change, especially when most people have been passively watching from the sidelines. And to show just how pervasive and powerful this new trend is, even knowing what I know part of me still wants to pre-order this game just for all the trifling goodies.
This is a Sub Game, that means you pay $15 a month every month to get access to content .
When they have decided to go this route, they specifically stated that they choose this model to ensure everyone have access to 100% content so they are not going the B2P or F2P model. They will stand their ground with the P2P model instead.
100% content is not Locked race for CE editions
Sure you can pay more, but should you ??
That is the question, its not about $20 dollars , its about it being sub based game that will have locked content
If it was B2P or F2P , then paying extra for extra content versus those that doesn't pay extra is accepted.
But as an Sub based P2P game, you are asking for Monthly payments for those that buys the Standard edition, without having the ability or chance to experience a part of the game.
That it self is wrong.
There is no precedent , over thousands of MMO that has been developed, or is being developed, you will not find an Sub based MMO that begin with an Locked Race that is only available if you get the Collector's edition.
You get pets, boosts, but nothing in the form that ESO is doing.
Doesn't matter how you spin it, it is the wrong thing to do, and its definitely losing me as a customer. I was on the fence before, but now, its definitely not a buy. Not even gonna wait to see if the game is any good, with their business model, it will only get worse from here.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
I agree with the OP in that charging for additional races, after box and sub fees (UNLESS that race comes in an expansion) is a bit much.
But, as others have said, no one is putting a gun to your head to make you play. Time will tell if their gambit pays off. Personally I see this game going the way of SWTOR, but only time shall tell. As for me, I most likely will not be playing at launch, but that choice has nothing to do with the sub model, everything to do with the combat.
Let us know how it goes, players
Most people on a website already divided between sandbox folk and themepark folk (probably 50/50) aren't going to buy the game. I can bet you can put that poll on wildstar, final fantasy and many other games and get similar if not equal results.
As for trying to downplay sales in the top 5. There are other games out as well that didnt even make the list. Make no problem with it, Elder Scrolls is on.
Well, Star Trek Online offered Federated Romulan, Klingon and Liberated Borg with the purchase of a lifetime sub. However, we know how well that went over.
With that said, I do agree with you. The fact that Imperials are only available with an additional purchase (basically day 1 DLC) and that with any pre-order you unlock the racial faction locks. All of this while the NDA is still full active.
Locking the Imperials away behind a $20 gate in a game that's already going to cost you a monthly sub. Making their faction locks useless as long as you pre-order. The whole thing smacks of some Perfect World Entertainment scam. Both of these pre-order and CE bonuses could have been added in game with some type of a quest series, which could have been really cool and memorable. Plus something to really work for. However, they went the douchebag route and decided to monetize both.
It makes me sad, because I love the ES series and I wanted to love this game. However, just as many predicted at the announcement of ESO, it was going to get completely screwed up and it was going to be a tremendous disservice to the ES brand.
And until the gaming community gets our collective heads out of our collective asses this will continue.
Except the fact that founder pacts for this level of bonus is usually in the $150-$200 range. Also founder's packs don't have 25% off coupons from any 3rd party sites.
yes yes you can buy a cup of coffee for a buck at mcdonalds... all sizes are 1 dollar and its decent coffee it is a bit much imo but maybe the games super awesome and worth it i dont know i do think the purchase price is a mistake it will throw off many people they should have a hybrid plan like say rent to buy you can play for 3 months but then you have to kick in part of what you owe yet
for example id have the starter pack set at 15 thatd would be good for a month than yould have to pay 30 thats sub and "rental fee" that would go on till you pay off the box price
That's not a bad sample of MMORPG.com's population, but it's not exactly a representative sample of the population of people who are going to buy the game. "Most" people only includes the people on this site. In regards to the poll itself, about 38% won't buy the game. About 24% aren't ordering right now, with no promise to not order later. That leaves 38% of people preordering. Compare that to statistics for pretty much any game that's released to the general population of gamers where only 10% to 20% of the gamer population ever buys the game and 38% preordering the game sounds really good. Really, really good. Never mind an additional 24% who may be waiting for the game to release before deciding to purchase or not (a wise move). I do not think your poll is something that can be generalized to assess the performance of TESO.
You left GTA V out of the results there. ESO (the topic under discussion) is #2. Those games are at the top, and the regular ESO is right up there with them. Just like every other preorder for every other game that has a preorder and a "special" edition, people are eating it up. They might regret their purchase later, but that's obviously not stopping them from buying it now.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
You forget...Rockstar sells ingame money for real life cash...so maybe they are selling it for over 100$
To be honest and not trolling btw ^^ , game companies will keep selling these kind of products as long as they sell. Period.
As for myself, yeah I got my eyes set on the physical Imperial Edition copy...I wants the shinies also!!
I'll say this one more time I guess. That list is of PC games. I'm not sure that beating a PS3 game that was released 5 months ago is a great indicator of booming success. Especially considering that the pre-order was released yesterday. But it's an Amazon thing, so none of it should probably be taken seriously at all.
Hahaha..good one ^^