It makes me believe that if Zenimax announced tomorrow that they are removing all PvP from the game and are replacing Daedra with Rainbow ponies you guys would do everything in your power to make it sound like it makes sense and is perfect for TES lore, and a TES MMO.
Wouldn't be as bad, since when did a PvE game become PvP, again?
10 years of 100% PvE. It's PvP that new and frankly not even wanted. The beauty of ES is it's story and environs. It brought the ADVENTURER out to play. Not turning a piece of art into a stinking gank fest to pollute it.
No, that's not the Elder Scrolls I know for 10 years. It will never be what I would tolerate.
Originally posted by killion81It's nothing by itself in a vacuum. It becomes shady and a flat out lie when you say something like,And its important to state that our decision to go with subscriptions is not a referendum on online game revenue models. F2P, B2P, etc. are valid, proven business models but subscription is the one that fits ESO the best, given our commitment to freedom of gameplay, quality and long-term content delivery. Plus, players will appreciate not having to worry about being monetized in the middle of playing the game, which is definitely a problem that is cropping up more and more in online gaming these days. The fact that the word monetized exists points to the heart of the issue for us: We dont want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for with our system, they get it all. - Matt Firorand then your actions are completely opposite to what you have said. If you want to say it's not a lie and just twisting words, go that route, but it's still shady and misleading. Personally, I hold people to what they say and the part that particularly stands out as a lie is "We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for -- with our system, they get it all."
Here is the thing about lies, or even deception generally; it's only dishonest if he didn't mean it at the time that he said it. It's not dishonest if he changed his mind later. It's not dishonest if somebody with more authority overruled him. It's only dishonest if, at the time he made the statement, he didn't mean it. And I'm fairly certain nobody here can prove that is the case, even if it is.
Except he says it over and over "We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for - with our system, they get it all." - Matt Firor. "just having one small monthly fee for 100% access to the game fits the IP and the game much better than a system where you have to pay for features and access as you play." - Matt Firor. "We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for - with our system, they get it all." Guess who?
All separate instances and part of the Spiel. Personally I'm not too fussed about the Imperials specifically but the principle of the matter and the precedent it sets causes a raised eyebrow. I wonder if the first expansion will have a charge?
It makes me believe that if Zenimax announced tomorrow that they are removing all PvP from the game and are replacing Daedra with Rainbow ponies you guys would do everything in your power to make it sound like it makes sense and is perfect for TES lore, and a TES MMO.
Wouldn't be as bad, since when did a PvE game become PvP, again?
10 years of 100% PvE. It's PvP that new and frankly not even wanted. The beauty of ES is it's story and environs. It brought the ADVENTURER out to play. Not turning a piece of art into a stinking gank fest to pollute it.
No, that's not the Elder Scrolls I know for 10 years. It will never be what I would tolerate.
This isnt the First elder scroll game to change how it plays or what it does.
For example, Elder scrolls adventures: Redguard.. nothin like a ES game at all.
At the end of the day i could care less, if the game is fun i'll play... if not oh well.
"Negaholics are people who become addicted to negativity and self-doubt, they find fault in most things and never seem to be satisfied." ^MMORPG.com
"Comparatively $20 for an entire race could be considered fair market value if not an outright steal."
It shouldn't even occur.
That's like paying extra to be a Pandarian in WoW (a multi-faction race).
Imperials have been in Elder Scrolls since Morrowind, and to see they become available for extra cash now? That's the definition of a money grab, and feels every bit like it (as things you always had now must be bought -- in the same franchise -- IS pickpocketing).
Do you want an imperial? If you aren't willing to spend for it, I don't think you really want it that bad.
That's stupid. It's like saying "Do you have cancer? If you want to be free of it then you must pay. If you aren't willing to spend for it, I don't think you really want to be free of it"
Just for the record. We are talking about video games. Not cancer.
PS. Listen to LizardBones. He gets it.
I thought one of the points of the sub was so that everyone had access to all the same stuff? No pay gates. The imperial isn't vanity or cosmetic, it's an entire race. Without the NDA lifted, I currently have no idea if there won't be a storyline for them, but if there ends up being one wouldn't you have to say that that is indeed content they're charging extra for; which contradicts the point of them going with the sub.
You mention that the explorer pack will be something you can purchase after release. That's nice, but how can they justify any race/ any faction behind a pay wall? That's been kind of a big deal for people since they announced races would be locked to specific factions.
They're making a concession because people have been asking for it? That seems to be the big reason for the any race/ any faction in the explorers pack. If this is something they end up charging for after release, it's not a concession. If they end up charging for this after release, that is the epitamy of greed.
Any race/ any faction should be a feature of the game, not a pre order bonus or upgrade option after launch. If they could push the race lock aside to help themselves push day one sales, then they could have done it for ES fans. I'm hoping this bites Zeni online in the ass. I'm fall into that camp of gamers that's sick of developers doing whatever they can to take advantage of gamers and make an extra buck; because unfortunately consumers really are a bunch of mindless sheep.
They're using the any race/ any faction, and Imperial race to drive sales because it's two of the things people have been rather vocal about wanting. No matter what angle anyone attempts to paint this, it's greed, period. Those things wouldn't be in there if they didn't think it would drive sales, sure as heck wouldn't if they really gave two cents about making "the Elder scrolls MMO the fans have always wanted." They're pissing on the fans, and an awful lot of consumers are perfectly fine with that it seems.
Originally posted by eric1000 On a slightly different note has anyone noticed that if you buy the boxed game from Amazon it's £10 cheaper than ordering it from Zenimax but you only get 3 days head start instead of 5, how's that for penny pinching from Zenimax? Order from someone else other than us and we take away two days of the head start so there
Be careful I check every where a lot of this packs don't have 30 days included they sell box without subscription and rest of the money and you have box price + 30 day for price ZeniMax sells
Not to mention that it completely destroys the games lore. As someone has pointed out on the official forums you can now have a Nord fighting for the AD and sitting on the ruby throne as emperor.
The lore was destroyed by the game anyway, there is NO EMPEROR after the fall of the second dynasty until Septim reunites the lands.
In fact in game lore stated that Imperial lands are attacked ONCE before Septim but is stopped at the gates of Marrowind.
None of these issues would be around if they weren't building the game off of DaoC idiocy, idiocy that they are trying to backtrack from as much as they can, too bad the box they made is so small there is little room to maneuver. Zenimax should have forced Bethesda to make the game instead of bringing in someone from the outside wanting to bend the IP to the only way he knows how to make games.
Every mmorpg destroys the lore of whatever they are based on, at least themeparks. WoW is a prime example of a game that basically blew the lore like a nuclear blast just to add raid content and playable races etc. You can read Warcraft lore after WC3 as a list of raid bosses in a certain order and stupid half arsed story abominations to force some new playable races into the existing factions.
But I dont think lore should be even taken so seriously when it comes to themeparks, sooner or later everything becomes stupid from a story point of view just so the game would have more content. If you look at the timeline of Warcraft you see a ridiculous lore chain meltdown starting from WoW with insane events blasting to your face like bullets from a Glock 18 full auto with an extended fantasy magazine.
One of the reasons why I find Wildstar interesting from a lore standpoint, it's fully build just for the MMO. Then again, Rift was a good example to me how I just simply could not connect to the world around me, I had no idea about the world and it was hard to learn anything about it by just playing.
Established lore is just so easy to get into, especially when it's from franchise that you already love, and it also feels incredibly bad when it gets butchered for gameplay reasons. Just better not to take it too seriously in these "spin off / extended universe" games?
" If anything they have provided a laurel leaf to the Elder Scrolls players that were upset about faction locks. Does this seem counter intuitive to the stance they took on faction locks originally? A little"
No. What it did was prove that everything they said about why they used the base game design was a complete and total lie.
Most TES fans that got upset about the game was WHY ISNT IT OPEN WORLD like TES games? We were told they HAD TO make it this way for realm pride and because MMOs require sacrifices.
It was all BS, like most people said and they PROVED it. Its not a laurel, its a carrot on a stick to lead us away from the real issue, a poor game design that was just shown to be worthless made by people with no intention of making a TES game, just a DaoC remake.
No. It just means they heard what some people said and their dislike of the faction lock. And with a simple preorder they can now do what they wanted. The faction lock was originally there to keep one faction from being vastly more populated than the others.
The only controversy is coming from the people that have always bashed on TESO no matter what.. Now that they offer the option its " OMGZ what they said before was a LIE!111!!1! ".
But it was a lie.
If they were doing a service to everyone they wouldn't be locking content behind a pay gate or pre-order they would made all races playable by everyone. I say content because each race is suppose to have their own skill line.
If it turns out that all races don't have their own skill line and its simply cosmetic its no big deal. Otherwise its paying for extra content.
It wasn't a lie. Can't people change their minds anymore without being accused of lying the first go around?
ZM: Races will be faction locked because of ABC.
Players: But I want to play X race on Y faction because my friends will all be there, and I only like X race. Your reasoning doesn't take that into account!
ZM: You're right. How about a compromise. If you pre-order, you can play whatever race with whatever faction.
Players: OMFG YOU LYING PIECES OF TRASH.
See? It doesn't make sense.
P.S. Faction unlock pre-order has nothing to do with Race locking behind the CE "paywall". All pre-orders get the ability to play whatever race with whatever faction, regardless of which version of the game you pre-order.
Not read the last 17 pages of reply's.. Back to the question asked.
After more than 10 years of buying CE's of various MMo's etc , I can most definately say I will never get sucked into buying pointless shit anymore. All the boxes are long in the bin and contents worth sweet FA, Pets or rewards useless and forgotten about.
I've been burned too much of late with the SWTOR CE and others.. Sucker NO more. Bog standard box and no more Fu**in* pre-orders!
I Urge other not to be reeled in buy the "So bloody amazing 5 days early access" or Race Shite, Save yourself some money and stop this preorder trend.
It makes me believe that if Zenimax announced tomorrow that they are removing all PvP from the game and are replacing Daedra with Rainbow ponies you guys would do everything in your power to make it sound like it makes sense and is perfect for TES lore, and a TES MMO.
Wouldn't be as bad, since when did a PvE game become PvP, again?
10 years of 100% PvE. It's PvP that new and frankly not even wanted. The beauty of ES is it's story and environs. It brought the ADVENTURER out to play. Not turning a piece of art into a stinking gank fest to pollute it.
No, that's not the Elder Scrolls I know for 10 years. It will never be what I would tolerate.
I can think of 2 answers:
1. Single player games are notoriously hard to add pvp. Someday it may be resolved ... when you can clone yourself or perhaps play one character with each hand? I don't know ... fire me some suggestions.
2. It is an mmo. The game went from a single player to thousands who are also every bit apart of the world as an npc. Realism dictates that players should also be at risk within the conflict as everything else in game.
The good news is that TESO can be played 100% pve. You never have to enter Cyrodiil and still have far more areas to explore than any previous TES game. There is also no selling crafted items to players in previous TES games. Should selling to other players be excluded?
Personally I admire the marketing approach by ZOS. Playing an Imperials is just a perk and has no impact in game other than player perspective. Opening all factions for every race is interesting to say the least. Many find this a selling point as followers of lore were upset being faction locked. They wanted to choose the faction they though their character would best fit (i.e. Argonians hating Dunmer and wanting other choices) and they now have that option. Don't care about faction choice? Then don't buy it or simply don't use the option.
I have 2 concerns:
1. Too many opt to play different races in other factions and it skews lore too much (personally I don't see this happening due to a combination of a low % of players overall buying and implementing the option and phasing tech spreading people out).
2. That ZOS pushes the limits of cash shop items post release so far that it emulates content gating too much. Currently nothing offered opens up anything new to players story wise.
I chock this up mainly as high risk marketing genius. It got people talking when only a week ago there were posts about the lack of marketing. The inclusion of these pre-purchase options thus far does not exclude or gate content that can be shared by everyone in game ... you merely look different. I see little doubt that ZOS is indeed pushing the boundries of what is considered a perk or bonus but this is little different than Swtor offering a CE vendor in game nobody else can access.
Look at the alternatives:
Faction lock: Annoys players wanting more freedom. Technically this goes against lore as races live, work and have migrated all across Tamriel and some could and would consider joining other alliances.
Unrestricted access to factions: Races would be too spread out and conflict with lore.
Restricted access: In line with lore is non-faction races always stay in a small minority. The issues are if the restrictions isn't balances against lore and how do you restrict it? Randomly? Nope, a lottery would make players GO INSANE if left out. Cash shop after release? Hell they may do it and it may open the option up too much and is likely equally controversial to many. How do you implement a restriction fairly? Honestly I have no clue.
I personally find a great sum of the news put out less of an issue than many. I often find that most of these hot topics are created from the class of the different player bases. TES players become frustrated over the introductions of mmo systems and how they impact the play style they have become used to, a play style heavily based upon lore. Mmo players often fail to understand the influence of lore on mmo systems implemented in ESO. Lore heavily influences how ZOS approaches how they design ESO and without understanding TES lore many mmo player views are heavily impacted by their previous mmo experiences even from games very different from ESO. Much of these changes are also from beta player feedback (based upon information already revealed like exploration of other faction areas post-50) so how much of this is answering feedback from players who know a hell of lot more about the game than us?
The debates will rage on and on as little consideration seems to be put toward finding any sort of common ground or often even analyzing the impact of these choices in game. Perhaps many are upset over thinking all things would be covered by sub. At the same time the argument exists that a strictly sub model cannot compete in this market anymore. Now we know content additions will not be gated but "fun" stuff will be offered through effectively a cash shop. Seeing how f2p models are designed around (roughly) <20% of the player base paying 80% of the payments, it leaves a massive majority of the player base unwilling to pay much or anything. Could it be that we have so much vocal backlash because evidence shows that most are unwilling to pay for anything ... ever?
A cash shop offers options to those <20% who are willing to spend more than the sub alone (which only covers core game content). What is offered in this cash shop (suggested to be mostly paid services along with other fluff. Similar to Wow cash shop model it seems) can be debated but one should appreciate the impact of this on the sub-only debate.
" If anything they have provided a laurel leaf to the Elder Scrolls players that were upset about faction locks. Does this seem counter intuitive to the stance they took on faction locks originally? A little"
No. What it did was prove that everything they said about why they used the base game design was a complete and total lie.
Most TES fans that got upset about the game was WHY ISNT IT OPEN WORLD like TES games? We were told they HAD TO make it this way for realm pride and because MMOs require sacrifices.
It was all BS, like most people said and they PROVED it. Its not a laurel, its a carrot on a stick to lead us away from the real issue, a poor game design that was just shown to be worthless made by people with no intention of making a TES game, just a DaoC remake.
No. It just means they heard what some people said and their dislike of the faction lock. And with a simple preorder they can now do what they wanted. The faction lock was originally there to keep one faction from being vastly more populated than the others.
The only controversy is coming from the people that have always bashed on TESO no matter what.. Now that they offer the option its " OMGZ what they said before was a LIE!111!!1! ".
But it was a lie.
If they were doing a service to everyone they wouldn't be locking content behind a pay gate or pre-order they would made all races playable by everyone. I say content because each race is suppose to have their own skill line.
If it turns out that all races don't have their own skill line and its simply cosmetic its no big deal. Otherwise its paying for extra content.
It wasn't a lie. Can't people change their minds anymore without being accused of lying the first go around?
ZM: Races will be faction locked because of ABC.
Players: But I want to play X race on Y faction because my friends will all be there, and I only like X race. Your reasoning doesn't take that into account!
ZM: You're right. How about a compromise. If you pre-order, you can play whatever race with whatever faction.
Players: OMFG YOU LYING PIECES OF TRASH.
See? It doesn't make sense.
P.S. Faction unlock pre-order has nothing to do with Race locking behind the CE "paywall". All pre-orders get the ability to play whatever race with whatever faction, regardless of which version of the game you pre-order.
It will be cool after 6-12 months of dwindling subscription numbers when they decide to change their mind about subscription only and go with a B2P model. It may happen closer to 3 months, who knows. In fact, I'm willing to bet that everything will be so smoothly rolled out that it will be almost as if it had been planned right from the start...
P.S. If you don't pre-order, you don't get the "Explorer's Pack" included for free. The fact that it already has a name is a pretty good indicator that you will be able to purchase the "Explorer's Pack" if you decide to purchase the game after release. That is a pay wall, unless there is some in game method to unlocking the "Explorer's Pack"
It makes me believe that if Zenimax announced tomorrow that they are removing all PvP from the game and are replacing Daedra with Rainbow ponies you guys would do everything in your power to make it sound like it makes sense and is perfect for TES lore, and a TES MMO.
Wouldn't be as bad, since when did a PvE game become PvP, again?
And point is proven 10 fold.
Not only are you attempting to say that this game is not built around PvP but you also ignored the Daedra to ponies point in order to try to make it sound good.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
It wasn't a lie. Can't people change their minds anymore without being accused of lying the first go around?
ZM: Races will be faction locked because of ABC.
Players: But I want to play X race on Y faction because my friends will all be there, and I only like X race. Your reasoning doesn't take that into account!
ZM: You're right. How about a compromise. If you pre-order, you can play whatever race with whatever faction.
Players: OMFG YOU LYING PIECES OF TRASH.
See? It doesn't make sense.
P.S. Faction unlock pre-order has nothing to do with Race locking behind the CE "paywall". All pre-orders get the ability to play whatever race with whatever faction, regardless of which version of the game you pre-order.
It will be cool after 6-12 months of dwindling subscription numbers when they decide to change their mind about subscription only and go with a B2P model. It may happen closer to 3 months, who knows. In fact, I'm willing to bet that everything will be so smoothly rolled out that it will be almost as if it had been planned right from the start...
P.S. If you don't pre-order, you don't get the "Explorer's Pack" included for free. The fact that it already has a name is a pretty good indicator that you will be able to purchase the "Explorer's Pack" if you decide to purchase the game after release. That is a pay wall, unless there is some in game method to unlocking the "Explorer's Pack"
You're right that they may have a shop in which to buy that unlock in the future, but that's pure conjecture at this point. You can't accuse a company of wrongdoing for something that it might do.Right now, you can pre-order the game and get the 'Explorer's Pack' at no additional cost, and that's literally all we know about that.
Was going to buy it anyway, but once I saw an Imperial race as a playable ingame reward for a collector's addition I had to have it. It's the only race I play in ES games and it was something I had been asking Zeinimax for a while now.
I do agree though that the allowing of all races to be on all factions for pre-orders is counter-intuitive of the game they created. It definately seems like a step backwords to appeal to the complaints of fans. It doesn't matter to me now that I can play Imperial on any faction (already pre-ordered), but one of my biggest dissapointments with the game was that the only cross-faction interaction was in Cyrodiil. With this change, it does seem to make their system look like a mistake.
Haxus Council Member 21 year MMO veteran PvP Raid Leader Lover of The Witcher & CD Projekt Red
It makes me believe that if Zenimax announced tomorrow that they are removing all PvP from the game and are replacing Daedra with Rainbow ponies you guys would do everything in your power to make it sound like it makes sense and is perfect for TES lore, and a TES MMO.
Sounds perfectly reasonable per the lore. See what happened here is that Sheogorath came along and...
It makes me believe that if Zenimax announced tomorrow that they are removing all PvP from the game and are replacing Daedra with Rainbow ponies you guys would do everything in your power to make it sound like it makes sense and is perfect for TES lore, and a TES MMO.
Sounds perfectly reasonable per the lore. See what happened here is that Sheogorath came along and...
You be quite you!
That would be funny as hell if someone actually did attempt to defend that.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
this was money grab, since they announced that game will use new console game price, on pc, last sub based game that launched had 1/3 price, all wow expansions and base game launched with half of eso price too, didnt incude cash shop or any preorder nonsense
I dont need more than one reason not to play eso, but I have way more than that.
It's been 48 hours and I'm still not convinced there's any real controversy that could be described as anything more than a tempest in a tea-cup.
There is no teacup.
I don't think there is any controversy, most people posting here haven't really been up in arms nor do I see many pitch forks. Just simple answers leading to:
"I am happy to buy this game."
or
"I will skip this one and see what else floats my boat."
Good luck to both!
I'm going to add one more option there -- "I will play and hope my wife gets as bored with this game in the first 30 days as I think she will."
It makes me believe that if Zenimax announced tomorrow that they are removing all PvP from the game and are replacing Daedra with Rainbow ponies you guys would do everything in your power to make it sound like it makes sense and is perfect for TES lore, and a TES MMO.
Wouldn't be as bad, since when did a PvE game become PvP, again?
And point is proven 10 fold.
Not only are you attempting to say that this game is not built around PvP but you also ignored the Daedra to ponies point in order to try to make it sound good.
It seems to me you are running out of real and made up points to rage about. I have noticed you in a number of threads. You are really hopping to bury this game. Well, somebody has to be a mortician.
It makes me believe that if Zenimax announced tomorrow that they are removing all PvP from the game and are replacing Daedra with Rainbow ponies you guys would do everything in your power to make it sound like it makes sense and is perfect for TES lore, and a TES MMO.
Wouldn't be as bad, since when did a PvE game become PvP, again?
And point is proven 10 fold.
Not only are you attempting to say that this game is not built around PvP but you also ignored the Daedra to ponies point in order to try to make it sound good.
It seems to me you are running out of real and made up points to rage about. I have noticed you in a number of threads. You are really hopping to bury this game. Well, somebody has to be a mortician.
And the point is proven again. Cant make it look good, so attack the person instead.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
this was money grab, since they announced that game will use new console game price, on pc, last sub based game that launched had 1/3 price, all wow expansions and base game launched with half of eso price too, didnt incude cash shop or any preorder nonsense
I dont need more than one reason not to play eso, but I have way more than that.
Game is 49,90€ in discshop (the store I use mostly) so it costs the same as every other new PC title. Also what does it matter what "last sub game" cost, this is not that game. Why dont you make comparisons to F2P titles, they are mmorpgs too and COST NOTHING, shouldnt we all be playing those? Oh wait, maybe there's people who this game is aimed at and those people will play it regardless if it costs +-10 bucks in any direction.
this was money grab, since they announced that game will use new console game price, on pc, last sub based game that launched had 1/3 price, all wow expansions and base game launched with half of eso price too, didnt incude cash shop or any preorder nonsense
I dont need more than one reason not to play eso, but I have way more than that.
It is not really clear to me…
If you were not going to play this game anyway, why do you actually care to post anything about it?
Does sharing negative feeling about this game make you feel better?
Is it because you actually want other people also not to play? Because being alone in this make you feel not completely sure about your decision?
I'm sorry, but if you think races are just "cosmetic" than you're most likely not a role player. I don't care what people say, putting races behind a time gated pay wall is greedy.
You act as if it were just some cosmetic "outfit." It's not. It's a whole freaking race we are talking about, locked behind a time gated pay wall. That is completely different than just an "outfit."
It's a race with no backstory to play through, no starter area to gawk at and no home city. The essential components are gone. It will look like an Imperial, but there will be no role play elements to go with it.
Do racial skills count as content? Pretty sure those will be attached to the added race...
It's all content. There isn't anything in the game that isn't content. That doesn't add the missing elements to the Imperials that the other races will have.
**
It remains to be seen how important racial skills are, but to quote the article you've linked:
"I do not think that you should pay a lot of attention to racial skills while choosing your class."
It may not be all that important.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
" If anything they have provided a laurel leaf to the Elder Scrolls players that were upset about faction locks. Does this seem counter intuitive to the stance they took on faction locks originally? A little"
No. What it did was prove that everything they said about why they used the base game design was a complete and total lie.
Most TES fans that got upset about the game was WHY ISNT IT OPEN WORLD like TES games? We were told they HAD TO make it this way for realm pride and because MMOs require sacrifices.
It was all BS, like most people said and they PROVED it. Its not a laurel, its a carrot on a stick to lead us away from the real issue, a poor game design that was just shown to be worthless made by people with no intention of making a TES game, just a DaoC remake.
Or, maybe, they just realized that them HAVING TO lock the races was actually idiotic and they decided last minute they'd rather ESO be an Elder Scrolls MMO and not DAOC 2 TES edition? They didn't lie, they changed their stance after huge amounts of people complained. They did it with first-person combat, too. It's like their MO, these days. if enough people cry out "THIS SUCKS CUZ ITS NOT LIKE ELDER SCROLLS" they will do something about it. Likely not the thing you expect, but SOMETHING.
In terms of value 20$ for a race isn't a huge deal.....
The issue is the precedent it sets. By buying TESO your saying that it's OK to add premium content to a sub based game.....On launch day of all ludicrous things.
Vanity items are one thing. I STILL think it's garbage, but that battle has already been lost. But seriously AN ENTIRE RACE!. With passives and an ultimate that you can BUY and can not and will never be able to earn in game.
Where does the line get drawn?
In 5 years will we be looking at.....
Preorders can access every skill tree regardless of race or class?
Preorders get a 10% faster mount.
A Special quest arc and zone for CE buyers?
This isn't about TESO. It's about the MMO industry and acceptable behavior.
And buy Buying TESO your not only telling Zenimax that it's OK. your telling every company who will ever make an MMO that it's OK.
We as consumers have to put our foot down at some point. Or we will be DLCed and premium unlocked to death.
Comments
Wouldn't be as bad, since when did a PvE game become PvP, again?
10 years of 100% PvE. It's PvP that new and frankly not even wanted. The beauty of ES is it's story and environs. It brought the ADVENTURER out to play. Not turning a piece of art into a stinking gank fest to pollute it.
No, that's not the Elder Scrolls I know for 10 years. It will never be what I would tolerate.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Here is the thing about lies, or even deception generally; it's only dishonest if he didn't mean it at the time that he said it. It's not dishonest if he changed his mind later. It's not dishonest if somebody with more authority overruled him. It's only dishonest if, at the time he made the statement, he didn't mean it. And I'm fairly certain nobody here can prove that is the case, even if it is.
Except he says it over and over "We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for - with our system, they get it all." - Matt Firor. "just having one small monthly fee for 100% access to the game fits the IP and the game much better than a system where you have to pay for features and access as you play." - Matt Firor. "We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for - with our system, they get it all." Guess who?All separate instances and part of the Spiel. Personally I'm not too fussed about the Imperials specifically but the principle of the matter and the precedent it sets causes a raised eyebrow. I wonder if the first expansion will have a charge?
This isnt the First elder scroll game to change how it plays or what it does.
For example, Elder scrolls adventures: Redguard.. nothin like a ES game at all.
At the end of the day i could care less, if the game is fun i'll play... if not oh well.
"Negaholics are people who become addicted to negativity and self-doubt, they find fault in most things and never seem to be satisfied."
^MMORPG.com
I thought one of the points of the sub was so that everyone had access to all the same stuff? No pay gates. The imperial isn't vanity or cosmetic, it's an entire race. Without the NDA lifted, I currently have no idea if there won't be a storyline for them, but if there ends up being one wouldn't you have to say that that is indeed content they're charging extra for; which contradicts the point of them going with the sub.
You mention that the explorer pack will be something you can purchase after release. That's nice, but how can they justify any race/ any faction behind a pay wall? That's been kind of a big deal for people since they announced races would be locked to specific factions.
They're making a concession because people have been asking for it? That seems to be the big reason for the any race/ any faction in the explorers pack. If this is something they end up charging for after release, it's not a concession. If they end up charging for this after release, that is the epitamy of greed.
Any race/ any faction should be a feature of the game, not a pre order bonus or upgrade option after launch. If they could push the race lock aside to help themselves push day one sales, then they could have done it for ES fans. I'm hoping this bites Zeni online in the ass. I'm fall into that camp of gamers that's sick of developers doing whatever they can to take advantage of gamers and make an extra buck; because unfortunately consumers really are a bunch of mindless sheep.
They're using the any race/ any faction, and Imperial race to drive sales because it's two of the things people have been rather vocal about wanting. No matter what angle anyone attempts to paint this, it's greed, period. Those things wouldn't be in there if they didn't think it would drive sales, sure as heck wouldn't if they really gave two cents about making "the Elder scrolls MMO the fans have always wanted." They're pissing on the fans, and an awful lot of consumers are perfectly fine with that it seems.
Be careful I check every where a lot of this packs don't have 30 days included they sell box without subscription and rest of the money and you have box price + 30 day for price ZeniMax sells
Every mmorpg destroys the lore of whatever they are based on, at least themeparks. WoW is a prime example of a game that basically blew the lore like a nuclear blast just to add raid content and playable races etc. You can read Warcraft lore after WC3 as a list of raid bosses in a certain order and stupid half arsed story abominations to force some new playable races into the existing factions.
But I dont think lore should be even taken so seriously when it comes to themeparks, sooner or later everything becomes stupid from a story point of view just so the game would have more content. If you look at the timeline of Warcraft you see a ridiculous lore chain meltdown starting from WoW with insane events blasting to your face like bullets from a Glock 18 full auto with an extended fantasy magazine.
One of the reasons why I find Wildstar interesting from a lore standpoint, it's fully build just for the MMO. Then again, Rift was a good example to me how I just simply could not connect to the world around me, I had no idea about the world and it was hard to learn anything about it by just playing.
Established lore is just so easy to get into, especially when it's from franchise that you already love, and it also feels incredibly bad when it gets butchered for gameplay reasons. Just better not to take it too seriously in these "spin off / extended universe" games?
It wasn't a lie. Can't people change their minds anymore without being accused of lying the first go around?
ZM: Races will be faction locked because of ABC.
Players: But I want to play X race on Y faction because my friends will all be there, and I only like X race. Your reasoning doesn't take that into account!
ZM: You're right. How about a compromise. If you pre-order, you can play whatever race with whatever faction.
Players: OMFG YOU LYING PIECES OF TRASH.
See? It doesn't make sense.
P.S. Faction unlock pre-order has nothing to do with Race locking behind the CE "paywall". All pre-orders get the ability to play whatever race with whatever faction, regardless of which version of the game you pre-order.
Not read the last 17 pages of reply's.. Back to the question asked.
After more than 10 years of buying CE's of various MMo's etc , I can most definately say I will never get sucked into buying pointless shit anymore. All the boxes are long in the bin and contents worth sweet FA, Pets or rewards useless and forgotten about.
I've been burned too much of late with the SWTOR CE and others.. Sucker NO more. Bog standard box and no more Fu**in* pre-orders!
I Urge other not to be reeled in buy the "So bloody amazing 5 days early access" or Race Shite, Save yourself some money and stop this preorder trend.
Off my box now
Eli
I can think of 2 answers:
1. Single player games are notoriously hard to add pvp. Someday it may be resolved ... when you can clone yourself or perhaps play one character with each hand? I don't know ... fire me some suggestions.
2. It is an mmo. The game went from a single player to thousands who are also every bit apart of the world as an npc. Realism dictates that players should also be at risk within the conflict as everything else in game.
The good news is that TESO can be played 100% pve. You never have to enter Cyrodiil and still have far more areas to explore than any previous TES game. There is also no selling crafted items to players in previous TES games. Should selling to other players be excluded?
Personally I admire the marketing approach by ZOS. Playing an Imperials is just a perk and has no impact in game other than player perspective. Opening all factions for every race is interesting to say the least. Many find this a selling point as followers of lore were upset being faction locked. They wanted to choose the faction they though their character would best fit (i.e. Argonians hating Dunmer and wanting other choices) and they now have that option. Don't care about faction choice? Then don't buy it or simply don't use the option.
I have 2 concerns:
1. Too many opt to play different races in other factions and it skews lore too much (personally I don't see this happening due to a combination of a low % of players overall buying and implementing the option and phasing tech spreading people out).
2. That ZOS pushes the limits of cash shop items post release so far that it emulates content gating too much. Currently nothing offered opens up anything new to players story wise.
I chock this up mainly as high risk marketing genius. It got people talking when only a week ago there were posts about the lack of marketing. The inclusion of these pre-purchase options thus far does not exclude or gate content that can be shared by everyone in game ... you merely look different. I see little doubt that ZOS is indeed pushing the boundries of what is considered a perk or bonus but this is little different than Swtor offering a CE vendor in game nobody else can access.
Look at the alternatives:
Faction lock: Annoys players wanting more freedom. Technically this goes against lore as races live, work and have migrated all across Tamriel and some could and would consider joining other alliances.
Unrestricted access to factions: Races would be too spread out and conflict with lore.
Restricted access: In line with lore is non-faction races always stay in a small minority. The issues are if the restrictions isn't balances against lore and how do you restrict it? Randomly? Nope, a lottery would make players GO INSANE if left out. Cash shop after release? Hell they may do it and it may open the option up too much and is likely equally controversial to many. How do you implement a restriction fairly? Honestly I have no clue.
I personally find a great sum of the news put out less of an issue than many. I often find that most of these hot topics are created from the class of the different player bases. TES players become frustrated over the introductions of mmo systems and how they impact the play style they have become used to, a play style heavily based upon lore. Mmo players often fail to understand the influence of lore on mmo systems implemented in ESO. Lore heavily influences how ZOS approaches how they design ESO and without understanding TES lore many mmo player views are heavily impacted by their previous mmo experiences even from games very different from ESO. Much of these changes are also from beta player feedback (based upon information already revealed like exploration of other faction areas post-50) so how much of this is answering feedback from players who know a hell of lot more about the game than us?
The debates will rage on and on as little consideration seems to be put toward finding any sort of common ground or often even analyzing the impact of these choices in game. Perhaps many are upset over thinking all things would be covered by sub. At the same time the argument exists that a strictly sub model cannot compete in this market anymore. Now we know content additions will not be gated but "fun" stuff will be offered through effectively a cash shop. Seeing how f2p models are designed around (roughly) <20% of the player base paying 80% of the payments, it leaves a massive majority of the player base unwilling to pay much or anything. Could it be that we have so much vocal backlash because evidence shows that most are unwilling to pay for anything ... ever?
A cash shop offers options to those <20% who are willing to spend more than the sub alone (which only covers core game content). What is offered in this cash shop (suggested to be mostly paid services along with other fluff. Similar to Wow cash shop model it seems) can be debated but one should appreciate the impact of this on the sub-only debate.
You stay sassy!
It will be cool after 6-12 months of dwindling subscription numbers when they decide to change their mind about subscription only and go with a B2P model. It may happen closer to 3 months, who knows. In fact, I'm willing to bet that everything will be so smoothly rolled out that it will be almost as if it had been planned right from the start...
P.S. If you don't pre-order, you don't get the "Explorer's Pack" included for free. The fact that it already has a name is a pretty good indicator that you will be able to purchase the "Explorer's Pack" if you decide to purchase the game after release. That is a pay wall, unless there is some in game method to unlocking the "Explorer's Pack"
And point is proven 10 fold.
Not only are you attempting to say that this game is not built around PvP but you also ignored the Daedra to ponies point in order to try to make it sound good.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
You're right that they may have a shop in which to buy that unlock in the future, but that's pure conjecture at this point. You can't accuse a company of wrongdoing for something that it might do. Right now, you can pre-order the game and get the 'Explorer's Pack' at no additional cost, and that's literally all we know about that.
Was going to buy it anyway, but once I saw an Imperial race as a playable ingame reward for a collector's addition I had to have it. It's the only race I play in ES games and it was something I had been asking Zeinimax for a while now.
I do agree though that the allowing of all races to be on all factions for pre-orders is counter-intuitive of the game they created. It definately seems like a step backwords to appeal to the complaints of fans. It doesn't matter to me now that I can play Imperial on any faction (already pre-ordered), but one of my biggest dissapointments with the game was that the only cross-faction interaction was in Cyrodiil. With this change, it does seem to make their system look like a mistake.
21 year MMO veteran
PvP Raid Leader
Lover of The Witcher & CD Projekt Red
Sounds perfectly reasonable per the lore. See what happened here is that Sheogorath came along and...
You be quite you!
That would be funny as hell if someone actually did attempt to defend that.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
this was money grab, since they announced that game will use new console game price, on pc, last sub based game that launched had 1/3 price, all wow expansions and base game launched with half of eso price too, didnt incude cash shop or any preorder nonsense
I dont need more than one reason not to play eso, but I have way more than that.
I'm going to add one more option there -- "I will play and hope my wife gets as bored with this game in the first 30 days as I think she will."
It seems to me you are running out of real and made up points to rage about. I have noticed you in a number of threads. You are really hopping to bury this game. Well, somebody has to be a mortician.
And the point is proven again. Cant make it look good, so attack the person instead.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Game is 49,90€ in discshop (the store I use mostly) so it costs the same as every other new PC title. Also what does it matter what "last sub game" cost, this is not that game. Why dont you make comparisons to F2P titles, they are mmorpgs too and COST NOTHING, shouldnt we all be playing those? Oh wait, maybe there's people who this game is aimed at and those people will play it regardless if it costs +-10 bucks in any direction.
It is not really clear to me…
If you were not going to play this game anyway, why do you actually care to post anything about it?
Does sharing negative feeling about this game make you feel better?
Is it because you actually want other people also not to play? Because being alone in this make you feel not completely sure about your decision?
Four passives and a powerful ultimate skill.
It's all content. There isn't anything in the game that isn't content. That doesn't add the missing elements to the Imperials that the other races will have.
**
It remains to be seen how important racial skills are, but to quote the article you've linked:
"I do not think that you should pay a lot of attention to racial skills while choosing your class."
It may not be all that important.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Or, maybe, they just realized that them HAVING TO lock the races was actually idiotic and they decided last minute they'd rather ESO be an Elder Scrolls MMO and not DAOC 2 TES edition? They didn't lie, they changed their stance after huge amounts of people complained. They did it with first-person combat, too. It's like their MO, these days. if enough people cry out "THIS SUCKS CUZ ITS NOT LIKE ELDER SCROLLS" they will do something about it. Likely not the thing you expect, but SOMETHING.
In terms of value 20$ for a race isn't a huge deal.....
The issue is the precedent it sets. By buying TESO your saying that it's OK to add premium content to a sub based game.....On launch day of all ludicrous things.
Vanity items are one thing. I STILL think it's garbage, but that battle has already been lost. But seriously AN ENTIRE RACE!. With passives and an ultimate that you can BUY and can not and will never be able to earn in game.
Where does the line get drawn?
In 5 years will we be looking at.....
Preorders can access every skill tree regardless of race or class?
Preorders get a 10% faster mount.
A Special quest arc and zone for CE buyers?
This isn't about TESO. It's about the MMO industry and acceptable behavior.
And buy Buying TESO your not only telling Zenimax that it's OK. your telling every company who will ever make an MMO that it's OK.
We as consumers have to put our foot down at some point. Or we will be DLCed and premium unlocked to death.