Originally posted by RebelScum99 I'm not on the fence. I'm firmly on the other side of the fence. If the completed game ends up looking like something I'd enjoy, then I'll support it. And not a second before. As I mentioned in another thread, I pay money for finished products, not ideas. I'll never pay a dime towards a kickstarter donation.
Fair enough. Unfortunately, to get a niche game made it might take a ks to get it noticed. The money just isn't out there the way it used to be. What can you do? $20 cost nothing to me when it involves supporting something I want to see made. The more people who back a project the more it shows the industry what players want.
The Industry (the Investors/Stockholders/Execs) do not give a rat's furry backside what the Players want. (They are not Players and never will be, playing games is a waste of time and time is money according to them.) They have been selling that lie for a long time, in other industries/areas of commerce, from hamburgers to cars to make-up, and it's as much a lie here in our genre as it was elsewhere.
Sure, the Devs many of them care, it's their dream, but Devs don't make the big decisions in the MMO Industry anymore than Engineers make big decisions for an Auto Manufacturer. Devs are now just employees that get paid better than the Janitors. Without the Devs there would BE no MMO, but that fact is often forgotten by the Suits.
Participating in a Kickstarter is just being gullible in my opinion. No real product, only backing an Idea. Better to become an owner or a stockholder than give money to a MMO like it's a charity or a non-profit..... and I have had it packed up my afterburners on these forums how MMOs are NOT non-profit. If I am going to partially fund a MMO I want real Stocks and/or part ownership.
They may take your money and run. It's already happened with some Kickstarters.
You can support MMO kickstarters as you wish of course. Your decision.
Did you even watch? They are showing off a dungeon lol.
someone posted they have nothing to show. I linked him something they have shown... Pretty straight forward..
sorry dude is still nothing to show, like he said a dungeon map empty is nothing, when people ask for things to show is not ideas, is not concept arts, is not what they hope to create, it the real gameplay of the game.
I know some people ehre like to pay for kickstarter in hope for then make a good thing, thing is right now a lot of devs are psuhing they luck with it, plus you ahve the risk of teh project fail, and fail hard, or then they make another kickstarter, tehn anotehr one for more money and they only shows up maps.
too bad I give value to my money and I don't pay for promisses, hopes or wishes you have to show me a good product to me even consider to pay for it..
I was a massive fan of EverQuest and played it and nothing else for almost 5 years. I loved Vanguard and spent a good deal of time there too. I think Brad has some great ideas about MMOs in general.
BUT...
An MMO releasing in 2017? It's just too far away to know what MMOs will or should be like then, in order to remain fun and appealing.
Planar high fantasy? You mean like Rift's lore and setting? Er...no thanks.
All details on classes and concepts already seem dated in 2014. I get that's the concept, but in 3 more years will that be OK?
Adding that all up it's too much of a punt for me. If I care about MMOs in 2017 (I'll be 43 then) and if seems any good then I'll probably play it. But for the moment I'm just going to wait and see.
Did you even watch? They are showing off a dungeon lol.
someone posted they have nothing to show. I linked him something they have shown... Pretty straight forward..
Did you watch it? That dungeon is just something they made in unity. There is no game there. ANYONE can make a 'dungeon' in Unity.
It's part of the game. That Dungeon will be in the game.. If you're arguing they need a whole game to show off, I don't know what to say.. Kickstarter tends to be just that.. A way to Kickstart a project.
I am not on the fense, I am firmly on the side of no, so I am not sure if you want to hear from me or not.
I believe kickstarters for games are a bad precedent to set, and a stupid idea to commit to. Developers deserve your money only when they deliver a product. They do not deserve your money ahead of product delivery and asking for it when there is no product is very odd, these companies are not your friends, they are companies looking to make money, they are not doing you personal favours.
Brad McQuaid has a bad reputation from Vangaurd, I don't see why anyone would trust him after that fiasco until he makes something recent to prove otherwise, let alone give him money ahead of time.
Also most MMOs suck and are not worth playing. So do you really believe that pantheon is going to be one of the few? Do you believe it enough to put money on it based on the word of a guy like brad? I think that is doubly unwise.
With games like Everquest Next on the horizon, why not let pantheon prove itself before buying into it.
I am not on the fense, I am firmly on the side of no, so I am not sure if you want to hear from me or not.
I believe kickstarters for games are a bad precedent to set, and a stupid idea to commit to. Developers deserve your money only when they deliver a product. They do not deserve your money ahead of product delivery and asking for it when there is no product is very odd, these companies are not your friends, they are companies looking to make money, they are not doing you personal favours.
Brad McQuaid has a bad reputation from Vangaurd, I don't see why anyone would trust him after that fiasco until he makes something recent to prove otherwise, let alone give him money ahead of time.
Also most MMOs suck and are not worth playing. So do you really believe that pantheon is going to be one of the few? Do you believe it enough to put money on it based on the word of a guy like brad? I think that is doubly unwise.
With games like Everquest Next on the horizon, why not let pantheon prove itself before buying into it.
The short answer is yes, I think this team is capable of making a fun, old school type game with some modern ideas.
The issue with KS. and I tend to agree actually, but.. and you said it yourself.. MMOs tend to suck. Why do they suck? Because companies s take the WoW model and make a bunch of games that suck. They are not stepping out of their comfort zone to make niche games. That's not what the big companies do. They give us a quest hub, PVE/PVP hybrid.
SoE at least in trying with EQN but they are going for mass appeal so the jury is out on how that effects game play.
I've been asking for a game like this to come along.. here it is.. so I'm putting my money where my mouth is. I'd rather toss 60 at this than ESO(which is more of the same, in a bad way)
And yea, I do want to hear why.. That's why I made the thread.. So Brad can read why people feel the way they do. Because regardless of what people think of the guy, he really does care about creating an awesome game and making up for his past mistakes for VG. Just trying to help him get his chance at it.
They need to show some decent character models to have a feel of the way the game will look.
Also the rewards for pledging are quite poor.
They should give away more stuff, like Mounts, XP Boosts, Special Armors, Special Skills, Houses.
Also I find it a terrible mistake that the $45 Tier had just 1000 slots available (sold out in a couple of days).
People wants to play Alpha, if you don't offer Alpha for a reasonable price ($45) most people won't pledge.
The reason is because the game is 3 years away, so if you don't offer the chance to pledgers to try the game within a year (when it goes in Alpha), many don't see the point in giving their money now.
They need to show some decent character models to have a feel of the way the game will look.
Also the rewards for pledging are quite poor.
They should give away more stuff, like Mounts, XP Boosts, Special Armors, Special Skills, Houses.
Also I find it a terrible mistake that the $45 Tier had just 1000 slots available (sold out in a couple of days).
People wants to play Alpha, if you don't offer Alpha for a reasonable price ($45) most people won't pledge.
The reason is because the game is 3 years away, so if you don't offer the chance to pledgers to try the game within a year (when it goes in Alpha), many don't see the point in giving their money now.
I think they wanted to reward the early supporters.. I think other KS have done a similar thing. The price for entry slowly creeprs up. You can still get Alpha for the $60 tier.
They need to show some decent character models to have a feel of the way the game will look.
Also the rewards for pledging are quite poor.
They should give away more stuff, like Mounts, XP Boosts, Special Armors, Special Skills, Houses.
Also I find it a terrible mistake that the $45 Tier had just 1000 slots available (sold out in a couple of days).
People wants to play Alpha, if you don't offer Alpha for a reasonable price ($45) most people won't pledge.
The reason is because the game is 3 years away, so if you don't offer the chance to pledgers to try the game within a year (when it goes in Alpha), many don't see the point in giving their money now.
I think they wanted to reward the early supporters.. I think other KS have done a similar thing. The price for entry slowly creeprs up. You can still get Alpha for the $60 tier.
My understanding is they wanted to better regulate how many people get let into the Alpha. Letting too many people in at once in closed stages can be a disaster, like the numerous issues Landmark Alpha is having right now. The development team is small so I'm guessing they don't want to deal with 10k+ people in an Alpha at once especially since Alpha would like be ongoing 24/7.
Pledges and addons are definitely things they should still consider spending a lot of work on. I have to agree with some that add-on and pledge rewards are really vague and more could be added to many of the tiers (the $3000 one is terrible for example). The Kickstarter was poorly planned in general and I don't think they had any idea what they were getting themselves into, but it's an ongoing process though and that have been making strides in the right direction.
They need to show some decent character models to have a feel of the way the game will look.
Also the rewards for pledging are quite poor.
They should give away more stuff, like Mounts, XP Boosts, Special Armors, Special Skills, Houses.
Also I find it a terrible mistake that the $45 Tier had just 1000 slots available (sold out in a couple of days).
People wants to play Alpha, if you don't offer Alpha for a reasonable price ($45) most people won't pledge.
The reason is because the game is 3 years away, so if you don't offer the chance to pledgers to try the game within a year (when it goes in Alpha), many don't see the point in giving their money now.
I think they wanted to reward the early supporters.. I think other KS have done a similar thing. The price for entry slowly creeprs up. You can still get Alpha for the $60 tier.
My understanding is they wanted to better regulate how many people get let into the Alpha. Letting too many people in at once in closed stages can be a disaster, like the numerous issues Landmark Alpha is having right now. The development team is small so I'm guessing they don't want to deal with 10k+ people in an Alpha at once especially since Alpha would like be ongoing 24/7.
Pledges and addons are definitely things they should still consider spending a lot of work on. I have to agree with some that add-on and pledge rewards are really vague and more could be added to many of the tiers (the $3000 one is terrible for example). The Kickstarter was poorly planned in general and I don't think they had any idea what they were getting themselves into, but it's an ongoing process though and that have been making strides in the right direction.
Great post man. Can't argue with any of it. I agree!
Did you even watch? They are showing off a dungeon lol.
someone posted they have nothing to show. I linked him something they have shown... Pretty straight forward..
Did you watch it? That dungeon is just something they made in unity. There is no game there. ANYONE can make a 'dungeon' in Unity.
It's part of the game. That Dungeon will be in the game.. If you're arguing they need a whole game to show off, I don't know what to say.. Kickstarter tends to be just that.. A way to Kickstart a project.
No I am arguing they shouldn't show prototyping as game progress. A map is not a game. Keep harping on if all you want, but until you have game development experience and know how to decipher what is really being shown, then you no leg to stand on in this argument.
I no longer have any problems with Brad, but I have my eggs in too many baskets right now. I'm going to wait to see how SOTA turns out before I support another game. I do wish this game good luck though, the Enchanter class gets me a bit excited.
It's good that niche games are being developed for all sorts of fanbases. I'll take a look at this far later in its development. But no pledges here. Why? I didn't like EQ. Watched my friends play it extensively, felt it had some serious design issues. Played some later era Vanguard, which I did enjoy, but not enough to throw money at this project.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
I don't really believe in KS, it's a way to get 'investors' without any return of that investment. All the things given don't really add up to much, they resemble pre-order bonuses and the top tiers like the 10k or even 3k grant you a phone call from Brad and help creating a quest line or Boss. Seriously?
For 10k to a project that asks for 800k and is at 330k (last I checked), I would certainly require a bit more than what's listed. Just my opinion.
Even though I have a trust issue with Brad, I can certainly understand he may have been over his head with Sigil and VG, and I will concede that people can improve and learn from their mistakes. I still want to see that improvement before I trust him, or anyone that blundered before, once more.
I hope it goes well, the ideas are interesting, but only time will show whether they'll be well executed and enjoyable.
Until then, I'll wait for more concrete info on gameplay, combat mechanics and the like before my interest goes any further.
They've got absolutely no product to show and I don't really trust Brad. Hell, I feel regret for contributing to CU but at least the game's beta is slated for this year. I'm not going to commit to simple wordplay by Brad for a game that won't be final for another 3 years.
Not true. They just did a hour video today on Twitch showing a dungeon and messing around with a few other things. The video hasnt been posted by The Rob and Dan show yet, so I cant link it. Here is a link to some screen shots of the dungeon they showed tho.
I don't think you understand when people say he has no product to show. Having a 3D model of a dungeon doesn't mean anything, just like having concept art doesn't mean anything. If Pantheon comes out with some actual gameplay (that looks like a AAA game) in an engine, then I can justify dabbling some money to the project. Until then, however, they've got nothing ... they get nothing.
Did you even watch? They are showing off a dungeon lol.
someone posted they have nothing to show. I linked him something they have shown... Pretty straight forward..
Did you watch it? That dungeon is just something they made in unity. There is no game there. ANYONE can make a 'dungeon' in Unity.
It's part of the game. That Dungeon will be in the game.. If you're arguing they need a whole game to show off, I don't know what to say.. Kickstarter tends to be just that.. A way to Kickstart a project.
No I am arguing they shouldn't show prototyping as game progress. A map is not a game. Keep harping on if all you want, but until you have game development experience and know how to decipher what is really being shown, then you no leg to stand on in this argument.
What is being shown besides them working on a dungeon that they plan to have in Pantheon? That will be part of the game... Why do I need Dev experience for that? I know exactly what I am looking at.. It is a dungeon in it's infant phase lol.. I also know they are in the very early stages of development. How do I know that? Because they said so.. KS are a leap of faith.. I hope everyone realizes that. They are basically asking for money to develop this idea of a game. I think/hope everyone understands that.
Personally, I'm ok with that.. There isnt a long line of companies looking to make a game like Pantheon.
I don't really believe in KS, it's a way to get 'investors' without any return of that investment. All the things given don't really add up to much, they resemble pre-order bonuses and the top tiers like the 10k or even 3k grant you a phone call from Brad and help creating a quest line or Boss. Seriously?
For 10k to a project that asks for 800k and is at 330k (last I checked), I would certainly require a bit more than what's listed. Just my opinion.
Even though I have a trust issue with Brad, I can certainly understand he may have been over his head with Sigil and VG, and I will concede that people can improve and learn from their mistakes. I still want to see that improvement before I trust him, or anyone that blundered before, once more.
I hope it goes well, the ideas are interesting, but only time will show whether they'll be well executed and enjoyable.
Until then, I'll wait for more concrete info on gameplay, combat mechanics and the like before my interest goes any further.
The top tier ($10k) grants you a trip to Visionary Realms (which should be all expense paid considering you gave 10k) to design an entire dungeon as well as designing a boss, quest line, NPC, and 2 items. It's a little more than what you are describing and some people may think it's worth the $10k experience (as with other Kickstarters with similar backing levels and rewards), though there certainly aren't a lot of people who can afford to pay $10k for that experience.
The $3k reward tier isn't worth it as I mentioned that reward tier needs work. The $1k is more attractive (and worth it IMO if you $1k is pocket change to you) and all you receive extra for another $2k is a limited edition print which is quite ridiculous. I'm surprised they had a backer for it and worried it could just be a troll considering with Kickstarter you can back out of your pledge a few days before funding ends.
Originally posted by RebelScum99 I'm not on the fence. I'm firmly on the other side of the fence. If the completed game ends up looking like something I'd enjoy, then I'll support it. And not a second before. As I mentioned in another thread, I pay money for finished products, not ideas. I'll never pay a dime towards a kickstarter donation.
I am firmly on the other side of the fence with this guy.
If there is eventually a game and it is good, I'll buy it. Until then, my money stays in my pocket.
Originally posted by RebelScum99 I'm not on the fence. I'm firmly on the other side of the fence. If the completed game ends up looking like something I'd enjoy, then I'll support it. And not a second before. As I mentioned in another thread, I pay money for finished products, not ideas. I'll never pay a dime towards a kickstarter donation.
Fair enough. Unfortunately, to get a niche game made it might take a ks to get it noticed. The money just isn't out there the way it used to be. What can you do? $20 cost nothing to me when it involves supporting something I want to see made. The more people who back a project the more it shows the industry what players want.
And I definitely agree with that. But I'm just not a big fan of the kickstarter craze, and I don't believe in spending money for the "idea" of a game. I'm the type of person that will put generous amounts of money into a game, through subs, donations, or even cash shop items if I enjoy the game. But the game has got to be completed first. It doesn't have to be perfected. But there's got to be enough completed to convince me that a game has long term potential before I start unloading my wallet.
See the problem with this viewpoint is that the studio's control funding. I'll cite Pillars of Eternity as an example. That game was looking for 1.1million and they went to their studio first and the idea was denied because games with "adult themed content" (Read:not porno or softcore or anything like that, but think games like Witcher) just don't "generate enough money/isn't a market, etc".
So the guys from Obsidian went to kickstarter, and ended up getting almost 4x what they were asking for, and the game is shaping up to be bloody fantastic.
The "I only pay for a finished product" mentaility is fine in theory bud bad in practice. Because if you want something that the market isnt producing you never have the option to pay for the finished product.
Right now the MMO industry has turned into the music industry, but worse. All the major studios are concerned about is producing the next Justin Bieber gaming equivalent. They will never green light a project for anything that doesnt have the potential to make money hand over fist. Simply making a profit is not enough these days. Even if the game cost 5 million to make and sells 20 million dollars worth. Thats not enough for them, they wants billions, not millions.
Most of the best products in the world were done by people who made a product they wanted and by a smart investor seeing it for what it is. Kickstarter is simply the internet's way of allowing thousands of people to fund something rather than 1, or a small group of rich venture capitalist types.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
To even wonder why someone is on the fence after Brad's Vanguard fiasco is moronic tbh.
This game is a classic case of "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me." He may have "learned alot about himself" but it's not easy to forget that he completely screwed over his friends and family as he ran with SoE's money while they got fired in a parking lot.
I'm not saying he can't be redeemed or forgiven but he hardly deserves free money to fund another vision either.
To even wonder why someone is on the fence after Brad's Vanguard fiasco is moronic tbh.
This game is a classic case of "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me." He may have "learned alot about himself" but it's not easy to forget that he completely screwed over his friends and family as he ran with SoE's money while they got fired in a parking lot.
I'm not saying he can't be redeemed or forgiven but he hardly deserves free money to fund another vision either.
I have a question have you played Vanguard after it was optimized and 2. Please enlighten me on how the mmorpg you are playing right now is a better game than current Vanguard.
And honestly that goes for anyone on the fence who keeps mentioning Vanguard
I'd like you to state your current mmorpg of choice and how its better than the current version of Vanguard and by that I mean as a game...because counting Vanguard's launch against it is similar to counting FFXIV:ARR's launch against it as well. Both games were relaunched and had no issues when they did. So to be playing FFXIV:ARR right now and not count 1.0 against it means that you would not possibly count the original launch against Vanguard right because Vanguard had a relaunch as well a few years back when it went f2p.
1.2.3
Go....
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
Comments
The Industry (the Investors/Stockholders/Execs) do not give a rat's furry backside what the Players want. (They are not Players and never will be, playing games is a waste of time and time is money according to them.) They have been selling that lie for a long time, in other industries/areas of commerce, from hamburgers to cars to make-up, and it's as much a lie here in our genre as it was elsewhere.
Sure, the Devs many of them care, it's their dream, but Devs don't make the big decisions in the MMO Industry anymore than Engineers make big decisions for an Auto Manufacturer. Devs are now just employees that get paid better than the Janitors. Without the Devs there would BE no MMO, but that fact is often forgotten by the Suits.
Participating in a Kickstarter is just being gullible in my opinion. No real product, only backing an Idea. Better to become an owner or a stockholder than give money to a MMO like it's a charity or a non-profit..... and I have had it packed up my afterburners on these forums how MMOs are NOT non-profit. If I am going to partially fund a MMO I want real Stocks and/or part ownership.
They may take your money and run. It's already happened with some Kickstarters.
You can support MMO kickstarters as you wish of course. Your decision.
A map made in Unity is not a game.
Did you even watch? They are showing off a dungeon lol.
someone posted they have nothing to show. I linked him something they have shown... Pretty straight forward..
sorry dude is still nothing to show, like he said a dungeon map empty is nothing, when people ask for things to show is not ideas, is not concept arts, is not what they hope to create, it the real gameplay of the game.
I know some people ehre like to pay for kickstarter in hope for then make a good thing, thing is right now a lot of devs are psuhing they luck with it, plus you ahve the risk of teh project fail, and fail hard, or then they make another kickstarter, tehn anotehr one for more money and they only shows up maps.
too bad I give value to my money and I don't pay for promisses, hopes or wishes you have to show me a good product to me even consider to pay for it..
Did you watch it? That dungeon is just something they made in unity. There is no game there. ANYONE can make a 'dungeon' in Unity.
I was a massive fan of EverQuest and played it and nothing else for almost 5 years. I loved Vanguard and spent a good deal of time there too. I think Brad has some great ideas about MMOs in general.
BUT...
An MMO releasing in 2017? It's just too far away to know what MMOs will or should be like then, in order to remain fun and appealing.
Planar high fantasy? You mean like Rift's lore and setting? Er...no thanks.
All details on classes and concepts already seem dated in 2014. I get that's the concept, but in 3 more years will that be OK?
Adding that all up it's too much of a punt for me. If I care about MMOs in 2017 (I'll be 43 then) and if seems any good then I'll probably play it. But for the moment I'm just going to wait and see.
It's part of the game. That Dungeon will be in the game.. If you're arguing they need a whole game to show off, I don't know what to say.. Kickstarter tends to be just that.. A way to Kickstart a project.
I am not on the fense, I am firmly on the side of no, so I am not sure if you want to hear from me or not.
I believe kickstarters for games are a bad precedent to set, and a stupid idea to commit to. Developers deserve your money only when they deliver a product. They do not deserve your money ahead of product delivery and asking for it when there is no product is very odd, these companies are not your friends, they are companies looking to make money, they are not doing you personal favours.
Brad McQuaid has a bad reputation from Vangaurd, I don't see why anyone would trust him after that fiasco until he makes something recent to prove otherwise, let alone give him money ahead of time.
Also most MMOs suck and are not worth playing. So do you really believe that pantheon is going to be one of the few? Do you believe it enough to put money on it based on the word of a guy like brad? I think that is doubly unwise.
With games like Everquest Next on the horizon, why not let pantheon prove itself before buying into it.
The short answer is yes, I think this team is capable of making a fun, old school type game with some modern ideas.
The issue with KS. and I tend to agree actually, but.. and you said it yourself.. MMOs tend to suck. Why do they suck? Because companies s take the WoW model and make a bunch of games that suck. They are not stepping out of their comfort zone to make niche games. That's not what the big companies do. They give us a quest hub, PVE/PVP hybrid.
SoE at least in trying with EQN but they are going for mass appeal so the jury is out on how that effects game play.
I've been asking for a game like this to come along.. here it is.. so I'm putting my money where my mouth is. I'd rather toss 60 at this than ESO(which is more of the same, in a bad way)
And yea, I do want to hear why.. That's why I made the thread.. So Brad can read why people feel the way they do. Because regardless of what people think of the guy, he really does care about creating an awesome game and making up for his past mistakes for VG. Just trying to help him get his chance at it.
They need to show some decent character models to have a feel of the way the game will look.
Also the rewards for pledging are quite poor.
They should give away more stuff, like Mounts, XP Boosts, Special Armors, Special Skills, Houses.
Also I find it a terrible mistake that the $45 Tier had just 1000 slots available (sold out in a couple of days).
People wants to play Alpha, if you don't offer Alpha for a reasonable price ($45) most people won't pledge.
The reason is because the game is 3 years away, so if you don't offer the chance to pledgers to try the game within a year (when it goes in Alpha), many don't see the point in giving their money now.
I think they wanted to reward the early supporters.. I think other KS have done a similar thing. The price for entry slowly creeprs up. You can still get Alpha for the $60 tier.
Also they have add ons.. for other perks. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/posts/733365
My understanding is they wanted to better regulate how many people get let into the Alpha. Letting too many people in at once in closed stages can be a disaster, like the numerous issues Landmark Alpha is having right now. The development team is small so I'm guessing they don't want to deal with 10k+ people in an Alpha at once especially since Alpha would like be ongoing 24/7.
Pledges and addons are definitely things they should still consider spending a lot of work on. I have to agree with some that add-on and pledge rewards are really vague and more could be added to many of the tiers (the $3000 one is terrible for example). The Kickstarter was poorly planned in general and I don't think they had any idea what they were getting themselves into, but it's an ongoing process though and that have been making strides in the right direction.
Great post man. Can't argue with any of it. I agree!
2 things:
1. I will never pledge money to an MMO through crowd funding.
2. If the game (whatever it is) is currently in development, consider me "on the fence"
No I am arguing they shouldn't show prototyping as game progress. A map is not a game. Keep harping on if all you want, but until you have game development experience and know how to decipher what is really being shown, then you no leg to stand on in this argument.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
I don't really believe in KS, it's a way to get 'investors' without any return of that investment. All the things given don't really add up to much, they resemble pre-order bonuses and the top tiers like the 10k or even 3k grant you a phone call from Brad and help creating a quest line or Boss. Seriously?
For 10k to a project that asks for 800k and is at 330k (last I checked), I would certainly require a bit more than what's listed. Just my opinion.
Even though I have a trust issue with Brad, I can certainly understand he may have been over his head with Sigil and VG, and I will concede that people can improve and learn from their mistakes. I still want to see that improvement before I trust him, or anyone that blundered before, once more.
I hope it goes well, the ideas are interesting, but only time will show whether they'll be well executed and enjoyable.
Until then, I'll wait for more concrete info on gameplay, combat mechanics and the like before my interest goes any further.
I don't think you understand when people say he has no product to show. Having a 3D model of a dungeon doesn't mean anything, just like having concept art doesn't mean anything. If Pantheon comes out with some actual gameplay (that looks like a AAA game) in an engine, then I can justify dabbling some money to the project. Until then, however, they've got nothing ... they get nothing.
What is being shown besides them working on a dungeon that they plan to have in Pantheon? That will be part of the game... Why do I need Dev experience for that? I know exactly what I am looking at.. It is a dungeon in it's infant phase lol.. I also know they are in the very early stages of development. How do I know that? Because they said so.. KS are a leap of faith.. I hope everyone realizes that. They are basically asking for money to develop this idea of a game. I think/hope everyone understands that.
Personally, I'm ok with that.. There isnt a long line of companies looking to make a game like Pantheon.
The top tier ($10k) grants you a trip to Visionary Realms (which should be all expense paid considering you gave 10k) to design an entire dungeon as well as designing a boss, quest line, NPC, and 2 items. It's a little more than what you are describing and some people may think it's worth the $10k experience (as with other Kickstarters with similar backing levels and rewards), though there certainly aren't a lot of people who can afford to pay $10k for that experience.
The $3k reward tier isn't worth it as I mentioned that reward tier needs work. The $1k is more attractive (and worth it IMO if you $1k is pocket change to you) and all you receive extra for another $2k is a limited edition print which is quite ridiculous. I'm surprised they had a backer for it and worried it could just be a troll considering with Kickstarter you can back out of your pledge a few days before funding ends.
I am firmly on the other side of the fence with this guy.
If there is eventually a game and it is good, I'll buy it. Until then, my money stays in my pocket.
See the problem with this viewpoint is that the studio's control funding. I'll cite Pillars of Eternity as an example. That game was looking for 1.1million and they went to their studio first and the idea was denied because games with "adult themed content" (Read:not porno or softcore or anything like that, but think games like Witcher) just don't "generate enough money/isn't a market, etc".
So the guys from Obsidian went to kickstarter, and ended up getting almost 4x what they were asking for, and the game is shaping up to be bloody fantastic.
The "I only pay for a finished product" mentaility is fine in theory bud bad in practice. Because if you want something that the market isnt producing you never have the option to pay for the finished product.
Right now the MMO industry has turned into the music industry, but worse. All the major studios are concerned about is producing the next Justin Bieber gaming equivalent. They will never green light a project for anything that doesnt have the potential to make money hand over fist. Simply making a profit is not enough these days. Even if the game cost 5 million to make and sells 20 million dollars worth. Thats not enough for them, they wants billions, not millions.
Most of the best products in the world were done by people who made a product they wanted and by a smart investor seeing it for what it is. Kickstarter is simply the internet's way of allowing thousands of people to fund something rather than 1, or a small group of rich venture capitalist types.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
To even wonder why someone is on the fence after Brad's Vanguard fiasco is moronic tbh.
This game is a classic case of "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me." He may have "learned alot about himself" but it's not easy to forget that he completely screwed over his friends and family as he ran with SoE's money while they got fired in a parking lot.
I'm not saying he can't be redeemed or forgiven but he hardly deserves free money to fund another vision either.
I have a question have you played Vanguard after it was optimized and 2. Please enlighten me on how the mmorpg you are playing right now is a better game than current Vanguard.
And honestly that goes for anyone on the fence who keeps mentioning Vanguard
I'd like you to state your current mmorpg of choice and how its better than the current version of Vanguard and by that I mean as a game...because counting Vanguard's launch against it is similar to counting FFXIV:ARR's launch against it as well. Both games were relaunched and had no issues when they did. So to be playing FFXIV:ARR right now and not count 1.0 against it means that you would not possibly count the original launch against Vanguard right because Vanguard had a relaunch as well a few years back when it went f2p.
1.2.3
Go....
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!