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Lack of Combat Feedback. What's the point?

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  • MoLoK_MoLoK_ Member UncommonPosts: 307

    Oh my!

     

    I wonder how anyone managed to play Skyrim without those damagenumbers floating around!

     

    ESO is about managing resources.

     

    Playing a sorcerer and you always got lots of magicka left after bossfights? Change some gear or switch out some +magicka enchants!

    Wheter or not your char can dish out 2% more damage in one minute might not be the most important thing.

  • PyatraPyatra Member Posts: 644

    So when you add the floating numbers.... this is not an inflated DMG/HP system so consider the following. 50 max level hits for maybe 150 roughly on a power attack while HP is around 1200. (Not accurate but close enough)  They are just going to be butthurt that the numbers are too low and that they should be hitting things with millions in HP for tens of thousands of damage... long story short... you will not be hitting anything for thousands in damage. I'm not opposed to it being in a combat chat box, but not on screen.

     

    Also there may be soft caps with diminishing returns

  • vzerovvzerov Member Posts: 125
    This and the buffs and debuff icon, i can see my buffs on my screen without opening the character window in daggerfall (the es game) , so i think it wouldnt make this game any less es-ish if it shows that too. How about just let us have the options to show numbers or buffs, we can choose not to show it if we think it breaks immersion, instead of forcing us to download addons for it.
  • JyiigaJyiiga Member UncommonPosts: 1,187
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by Jyiiga

    Other people would say the opposite. They would say, I like how much ES flavor it does have and we don't want you making it more like every other game on the market.

    Of course they would, but you cannot get a single player ES feel in a MMORPG - just won't work, so attempting it is just a waste of resources.

    That's where I feel it went all sideways for Zenimax - they started to cave into "make it more like ES" pressure - they should have stuck to their original - make a kick ass MMORPG with 3 factions and kick ass AvAvA system.

    Just my 2c.

    Sure it wouldn't have sold as many boxes - but it would have been a solid MMORPG, but if you are aiming for huge box sales and you don't care what happens after the first month - then yeah - go ahead and make your MMO- ESified and watch both single player ES fans hate it as well as MMORPG fans.

    Do one or the other - don't cross the streams!

     

     

    Your opinion is  noted, but currently that is all it is. You might not think the game felt like an ES title and someone else may have exactly the opposite opinion.

    People asked for it to be more like an ES game, cause well thats what it is!

    Your 2c is noted, but people have been providing constant feedback and the game has shifted more towards an ES title because of said feedback, so maybe what you desire, is not what the majority desire.

    I think the game already has a kick ass AvAvA system :)

     

  • kage71kage71 Member UncommonPosts: 123
    Originally posted by Rusque

    They are going to allow mods of the interface, whether that means DPS meter are incoming along with procs and timers I can't say.

    But if they're allowed, you can be sure they're going to exist quite soon.

     

    That being said, I would very much like to see the lack of feedback become more common in games, I'm not entirely thrilled by number crunchers because they suck so much fun out of the game. "Well this ability decreases overall dps by X amount and therefore regardless of how fun it is all groups will require you to take this ability called "stick poke" instead. Bleh.

    I mean, the onus is always on developers to create balanced abilities where there are positives and negatives to each, but no matter how much they try, those spreadsheeters will find a way to squeak out those extra few numbers and put the "this build is optimal" stamp on it.

    And for the record, I do what I can to avoid those players, but it's really really pervasive at this point.

    Oh wow a person who speaks for what I have been thinking for so long. "Spreadsheeters" and these ingame mathematicians have annoyed me for so long for how they leech on a good game and just suck it dry of fun. And believe me you are not the only one who avoid players who can turn a fun game into a job (I can see if I was getting paid to play these games then we can talk calucations but for pete sakes it's a game).

  • JyiigaJyiiga Member UncommonPosts: 1,187
    Originally posted by vzerov
    This and the buffs and debuff icon, i can see my buffs on my screen without opening the character window in daggerfall (the es game) , so i think it wouldnt make this game any less es-ish if it shows that too. How about just let us have the options to show numbers or buffs, we can choose not to show it if we think it breaks immersion, instead of forcing us to download addons for it.

    Daggerfall is pretty old and did not have the deep graphical features or sound of the modern ES titles. I mean in Oblivion and Skryim I do not number crunch and I can easily tell what my character is afflicted with by how they react.

    I just got hit with frost. I am slowed. I have a slight icy coloration.

    I just got hit with fire. I am on fucking fire.

    I just got hit with poison, my health is dropping and I hear a slight sizzling effect.

     

  • jdlamson75jdlamson75 Member UncommonPosts: 1,010
    Originally posted by Octagon7711
    Sure, why do it yourself when you can get your paying customers to do it for free.

    Pretty much like the entire franchise has been doing since its inception, you mean?  I hear it's been pretty successful in doing it that way.

  • ariestearieste Member UncommonPosts: 3,309
    Originally posted by MoLoK_

    Oh my!

     

    I wonder how anyone managed to play Skyrim without those damage numbers floating around!

    Easy.  It it was a single-player game, so didn't matter, since you didn't have a million other players to compete with.   Skyrim was also designed to be played in multiple ways - you could use multiple methods to accomplish same in-game goals.  This is not the case in an MMO.  (I assume) you can't sneak around a dungeon boss and just steal the treasure without engaging, (i assume) you can't decide to take the dungeon's boss' side and be rewarded for that instead,  (I assume) you can't bring 10 hired NPCs to beat up the boss for you.     In (most MMOs) You have to fight.  Your ONLY choice is to fight and to win and the mob doesn't scale to your level or your abilities.  

    Wheter or not your char can dish out 2% more damage in one minute might not be the most important thing.

    Right, so then why force me to choose between a "2% improvement to something i can't measure" and  a "3% improvement to soemthing else i can't measure?"    Just avoid including the 2% number altogether.  

    "I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

    - Raph Koster

    Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
    Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
    Currently Playing: ESO

  • vzerovvzerov Member Posts: 125
    Originally posted by Jyiiga
    Originally posted by vzerov
    This and the buffs and debuff icon, i can see my buffs on my screen without opening the character window in daggerfall (the es game) , so i think it wouldnt make this game any less es-ish if it shows that too. How about just let us have the options to show numbers or buffs, we can choose not to show it if we think it breaks immersion, instead of forcing us to download addons for it.

    Daggerfall is pretty old and did not have the deep graphical features or sound of the modern ES titles. I mean in Oblivion and Skryim I do not number crunch and I can easily tell what my character is afflicted with by how they react.

    I just got hit with frost. I am slowed. I have a slight icy coloration.

    I just got hit with fire. I am on fucking fire.

    I just got hit with poison, my health is dropping and I hear a slight sizzling effect.

     

    True, but in the same time skyrim or oblivion dont have that many buffs or debuffs from skills of your own or other players. and we know its not practical to show all these with only graphical features in pvp, imagine what happens if i got 8 buffs or debuffs on me.

  • ariestearieste Member UncommonPosts: 3,309
    Originally posted by Pyatra

    So when you add the floating numbers.... this is not an inflated DMG/HP system so consider the following. 50 max level hits for maybe 150 roughly on a power attack while HP is around 1200. (Not accurate but close enough)  They are just going to be butthurt that the numbers are too low and that they should be hitting things with millions in HP for tens of thousands of damage... long story short... you will not be hitting anything for thousands in damage. I'm not opposed to it being in a combat chat box, but not on screen.

    First of all - it doesn't matter whether numbers are floating, in a chatbox or in a log you can access after (although personally i prefer to have everything in-game rather than have to make spreadsheets or rely on 3rd party programs).   All i want is some of knowing how much i hit the mob for.

     

    Now as far as people being worried that they're not hitting for millions... i didn't even realise that this was a potential complaint.  Don't pretty much all RPGs (and MMOs) start out with you hitting for 1 point of damage and go up from there?    I don't see why it should matter if you're hititng for 150 instead of 149 vs. 15000 instead 14900, but i guess some people are stupid that way.  /shrug.  

     

    The point is to just be able to know what you've hit for.    So you know how to get better.  I mean, it's a game, one of the main pleasures of playing a game is getting better at it.  One of the ways to get better at a game where you hit stuff with a sword, is learn to hit stuff harder with said sword.     I mean, it's not all there is to playing, but it's a big part of it.

     

    "I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

    - Raph Koster

    Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
    Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
    Currently Playing: ESO

  • ZadawnZadawn Member UncommonPosts: 670
    There's an addon button after you log in. Im there will be plenty of addons to suit your needs.


  • ElRenmazuoElRenmazuo Member RarePosts: 5,361

    Anyone with a dps meter mod is going to be in my ignore list.

    That red health bar is all i need personally.  I dont need numbers jumping all over my screen

  • ariestearieste Member UncommonPosts: 3,309
    Originally posted by ElRenmazuo

    Anyone with a dps meter mod is going to be in my ignore list.

    That red health bar is all i need personally.  I dont need numbers jumping all over my screen

    I guess you better get the mod that tells you what mods other people have, so you can ignore them easier!     (I don't understand how someone else's mod would make numbers jump on YOUR screen, but i am not really familiar with this modding thing in the first place, since i never used any in Skyrim)

    "I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

    - Raph Koster

    Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
    Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
    Currently Playing: ESO

  • OsmanthusOsmanthus Member UncommonPosts: 105
    Originally posted by arieste
    Originally posted by Osmanthus
    I think the NDA is still in effect. However, I will say that the premise of the OP is incorrect.

    Nothing in my post is under NDA.  I've listed my sources for the information and aside from the commentation clearly tellingyou that htere is no combat feedback, you can clearly see this from every video of combat available online.  (I also played beta myselt, but i'm not including any additional - under NDA - info in my posts)

    There is a chance that my post gives additional information.

  • FdzzaiglFdzzaigl Member UncommonPosts: 2,433

    People do need something to compare the damage and such for themselves you know. I don't see that as much of an issue.

    Regardless of what approach they take though, you can betcha that the theorycrafters will find a way to log combat results and find the best possible builds anyhow.

    Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!

  • EzhaeEzhae Member UncommonPosts: 735
    Originally posted by gestalt11

    Any devs who thinks the numbers in their game won't be reverse engineered is suffering from hubris.  Its just that simple.

     

    I suppose you could make some osrt of argument about the masses and a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.

     

    Meh, smart people will reverse engineer your system.  They will do it everytime.  What the masses would do with prevalent numbers,  Idunno.  I don't think I care.  Eff em.

    Pretty much. I remember WoW pre threat meters, when people were figuring out how threat generation translates to numbers  by simply autoattacking a mob without any weapon equipped to see how many hits it took to switch agro compared to various abilities. 

    In the end, numbercrunchers and theorycrafters are important part of the core playerbase of pretty much any game. They are the guys that will spend nights after nights trying to figure out your game and tend to be dedicated players that will stick through all sorts of patches often providing important feedback. Why go out of your way to ruin what makes the games fun for them? The more data the player can get the better. 

  • ElRenmazuoElRenmazuo Member RarePosts: 5,361
    Originally posted by arieste
    Originally posted by ElRenmazuo

    Anyone with a dps meter mod is going to be in my ignore list.

    That red health bar is all i need personally.  I dont need numbers jumping all over my screen

    I guess you better get the mod that tells you what mods other people have, so you can ignore them easier!     (I don't understand how someone else's mod would make numbers jump on YOUR screen, but i am not really familiar with this modding thing in the first place, since i never used any in Skyrim)

    My first sentence is not related to my second sentence

  • SenanSenan Member UncommonPosts: 788
    Originally posted by arieste
    Originally posted by ElRenmazuo

    Anyone with a dps meter mod is going to be in my ignore list.

    That red health bar is all i need personally.  I dont need numbers jumping all over my screen

    I guess you better get the mod that tells you what mods other people have, so you can ignore them easier!     (I don't understand how someone else's mod would make numbers jump on YOUR screen, but i am not really familiar with this modding thing in the first place, since i never used any in Skyrim)

    I'm sure he's talking about not wanting to play with a bunch of a**hole min/maxers and I agree with him. I honestly hope they never release combat logs in the game, and I hope it's beyond difficult for modders to make an accurate dps meter of their own. Anything to make it harder for elitists to sh*t up another game by trivializing the build variety, is always a plus in my book.

    As long as you're killing stuff and surviving, why does it matter how much damage you do? I "eyeball" the builds that I test and I have no problem getting a feel for what works well and what doesn't. Hell, I would even consider it an extra challenge to the game. Instead of knowing what works the most optimally through a site like elitistjerks or by crunching the numbers myself, I'll need to experiment in practice to see what works best in a given situation -- and even then, I'll never be 100% certain. Personally, I like that.

    image
  • JyiigaJyiiga Member UncommonPosts: 1,187
    Originally posted by Ezhae
    Originally posted by gestalt11

    Any devs who thinks the numbers in their game won't be reverse engineered is suffering from hubris.  Its just that simple.

     

    I suppose you could make some osrt of argument about the masses and a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.

     

    Meh, smart people will reverse engineer your system.  They will do it everytime.  What the masses would do with prevalent numbers,  Idunno.  I don't think I care.  Eff em.

    Pretty much. I remember WoW pre threat meters, when people were figuring out how threat generation translates to numbers  by simply autoattacking a mob without any weapon equipped to see how many hits it took to switch agro compared to various abilities. 

    In the end, numbercrunchers and theorycrafters are important part of the core playerbase of pretty much any game. They are the guys that will spend nights after nights trying to figure out your game and tend to be dedicated players that will stick through all sorts of patches often providing important feedback. Why go out of your way to ruin what makes the games fun for them? The more data the player can get the better. 

    I disagree with this whole heartedly. They are a super tiny minority. Can they provide feedback, yes. Can they be like any other vocal minority and keep developers tied up in knots, yes.

  • funyahnsfunyahns Member Posts: 315
     With no raiding content how needed will combat logs be? Will be interesting to see how long it takes for them to release the information.  I am not an expert on WoW but isn't it almost impossible to raid without those UI addons? At least at the cutting edge of content not when you and the entire guild is over geared for it.  It kind of sucks that they have to tune the content to the addons. Maybe they can sell it in  a super collectors edition! J/K
  • EzhaeEzhae Member UncommonPosts: 735
    Originally posted by Jyiiga
    Originally posted by Ezhae
    Originally posted by gestalt11

    Any devs who thinks the numbers in their game won't be reverse engineered is suffering from hubris.  Its just that simple.

     

    I suppose you could make some osrt of argument about the masses and a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.

     

    Meh, smart people will reverse engineer your system.  They will do it everytime.  What the masses would do with prevalent numbers,  Idunno.  I don't think I care.  Eff em.

    Pretty much. I remember WoW pre threat meters, when people were figuring out how threat generation translates to numbers  by simply autoattacking a mob without any weapon equipped to see how many hits it took to switch agro compared to various abilities. 

    In the end, numbercrunchers and theorycrafters are important part of the core playerbase of pretty much any game. They are the guys that will spend nights after nights trying to figure out your game and tend to be dedicated players that will stick through all sorts of patches often providing important feedback. Why go out of your way to ruin what makes the games fun for them? The more data the player can get the better. 

    I disagree with this whole heartedly. They are a super tiny minority. Can they provide feedback, yes. Can they be like any other vocal minority and keep developers tied up in knots, yes.

    Of course they are minority. In every game the core of playerbase is minority. It's the minority that drives the whole thing forward however. It's the minority that creates the publicity, that initiates discussion, and that does stuff other can get interested in.

    No one gives a damn about some random joe that plays the game by himself of with few of his best buddies.  He's just a statistic in the numbers that get published every once in a while. But when you look at say how WoW popularity grew you will notice certain names rising to prominence, whenever it be top end raiding guild competing for world firsts or machinema maker or a streamer that was there during that time, providing headlines. 

    The core playerbase of any game is what publishers and developer like the most, since those are the guys that will promote your game for free, and even in case of subscription based games happily pay for the privilage to do so. They are a a longterm investment. 

  • DeserttFoxxDeserttFoxx Member UncommonPosts: 2,402

    i dont like that there is no collision detection, but elder scrolls has never had floating numbers, EVER. So its not surprising its not in game.

     

    That is not a defense, i personally believe in choice, i think it should be off by default but if someone pokes around the UI they should be able to figure out how to enable it.

    Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy

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  • LugorsLugors Member UncommonPosts: 184

    Greater transparency is a good thing.  Having a combat log holds the developer accountable for the game mechanics.    To paraphrase the OP, how do you know that your attack is 5% stronger when you have no way to verify it?

    Unfortunately, this focuses on two of Zenimax’s glaring weaknesses with the Elder Scrolls series: class balance and bugs.  Elder Scrolls games have been hugely ambitious, immersive, with enormous game worlds to explore, but also buggy as heck and sporting wildly unbalanced game mechanics.  So buggy in fact, that the console commands are often the first choice when trying to progress through the game when something isn’t working right.  You can’t do that with an MMO.  Class and ability balance is priority #1.       

    Theory crafting is part of the MMO landscape.  Removing it makes the dev's job easier because you can't call them on issues with the back end of the combat mechanics.  Working with your players is going to pay off in the long run.  Hiding the problems will only make it worse.

  • KaosProphetKaosProphet Member Posts: 379
    Originally posted by Ezhae
    Originally posted by gestalt11

    Any devs who thinks the numbers in their game won't be reverse engineered is suffering from hubris.  Its just that simple.

     

    I suppose you could make some osrt of argument about the masses and a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.

     

    Meh, smart people will reverse engineer your system.  They will do it everytime.  What the masses would do with prevalent numbers,  Idunno.  I don't think I care.  Eff em.

    Pretty much. I remember WoW pre threat meters, when people were figuring out how threat generation translates to numbers  by simply autoattacking a mob without any weapon equipped to see how many hits it took to switch agro compared to various abilities. 

    In the end, numbercrunchers and theorycrafters are important part of the core playerbase of pretty much any game. They are the guys that will spend nights after nights trying to figure out your game and tend to be dedicated players that will stick through all sorts of patches often providing important feedback. Why go out of your way to ruin what makes the games fun for them? The more data the player can get the better. 

    I'm curious how doing 99.9% of their work for them doesn't "ruin what makes the games fun for them."  Or grossly accelerate the speed of content-churn, but that's a different argument (albeit on the same topic.)

     

    Really, this issue seems less about making the game fun for the number-crunchers, and more about making it easier for the people who rely on the number-crunchers to tell them how to play. 

  • XileoXileo Member Posts: 24
    Originally posted by nerovipus32
    I suppose you want a dps meter in there also? So many people calling ESO a clone and yet they complain when it's not following the traditional EQ/WOW mechanics. The irony is delicious.

    lol, this guy right here... is my hero

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