so, a game that took 4+ years to develop is so bad that another company can put out a better version in mere months???
This ^.Also, what's prevents people from these super express MMO companies from participating in the beta and seeing all the groundbreaking new idea's for themselves? Or reading about them in the numerous previews which aren't covered by NDA? Or hearing about them in the developer interviews, marketing campaigns etc...And I must ask, what new ideas are in ESO worth copying? I honestly can't think of any... it just feels like your generic MMO #937 to me./shrug
1 - EVERYBODY has to agree to NDA. EVERYBODY.2 - Not making a better game, stealing ideas and concept art and everything else.3 - I'm not stupid enough to break NDA. So i'm not telling anything about the game. (nice try)Also why are you still here? You don't like the game. So it seems to me your trolling. Go take part in other forums for games you like.
You quoted yourself and gave yourself a +whatever number? Really? OMG!
What happens if someone breaks the NDA? If someone really wanted to break it and go sell "ideas" to another company, could they? COULD they?
Go visit Tamriel Foundry. They have about as much information on the game as one can have, all from Zenimax released articels and videos.
You are truly cracked in the head if you think at this point in time, ANYONE can get a game released BEFORE TES:O releases in a few weeks...
There is NO for reason Zenimax to keep the NDA in place except one. They are scared shitless.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
It's a critic's job to be critical. That's why they're called critics. And these are just first impressions not reviews. So the guy in the video is upset that some people did not have amazing first impressions of the game? Well guess what, maybe it's because the game is not so amazing for everyone.
I really enjoy this game.... especially after the last beta.
But all the criticisms I've read so far have been pretty accurate. The game isn't for everyone, but i do think people should see if they like it. Rather than doing what everyone else is doing.
lol..It's called padding your street cred. Have to follow what the loudest minority is doing so you look good to the others. I'm sure lots of the people who bash themepark games, complain about P2P games, and so on are really closet themepark junkies whom get their WOW fix every night. Lets not forget all the armchair developers and clairvoyants in that vocal group.
I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Combat is bad and basically the only in game activity so therefore game is bad. See I didn't need to talk about the Imperial edition at all to get there.
ITT: A whole lot of people who didn't understand what this guy was saying when he was bashing other critics.
His whole gripe was about certain critics who spent a total of 3-8 hours in game over an entire 3 day span, then wrote a preview based on that. When you're a game critic, there is no argument you can come up with to justify this behavior, because it is literally your job to play a game. That's lazy fucking work, and, whether they gave a positive or negative report on the game, the readers shouldn't put up with that.
It's their job to take the time to investigate in depth and report on something that their readership likely doesn't have access to, whether they like the game or not.
I've never heard more excuses jam packed into 20min.
He's got every excuse in the book covered, it's beta, it's unfinished, it's NDA, and on and on
Are those things not true?
Truth has no need for excuses, or NDA, or hiding anything - is that not the case?
A truthful person is like an open book, he has nothing to hide, no excuses to make.
Not exactly - truth doesn't need excuses because it is justified by merit of its own existence.
TESO IS in Beta.
it IS unfinished.
it IS under NDA.
For one, these are not excuses - they are simply the current existence of what TESO is. Thus, they are truth.
For two, what you're doing is twisting the facts up to suit your own agenda. And... you're simply wrong for doing it. These qualities do not justify your opinion, and no one with any sense of morality would ever confuse that. They justify the truth - which is that TESO is exactly what the justification says it is. It is nothing more and nothing less.
And for three - your inability to accept the truth does not give weight to your accusations. What it does is render you in denial of the truth.
For four - there have been given no excuses by the people whose word actually matters: Zenimax. They've given no excuses to anything. The only people qualified to defend the game, is them. And they simply have no need to provide a defense, which to me, gives reason to suspect they have faith in their product. It's one thing if they are under NDA and gave a defense to the accusations. It's another thing if they're under NDA and give no defense to the accusations. As you say... the truth doesn't need excuses - and they've given none.
As for the truth needing to be hidden.... what do you think the NDA is for exactly? I'll give you some options:
1. Protecting the integrity of the story of a game deeply seeded in TES lore which reflects the same level of secrecy that prior installments of the series employed, not to mention it is standard practice for any creative entity to keep things secret until it is finished?
2. To protect the integrity of a dev team that doesn't have faith in a product they've spent the past 3-5 years developing?
ElderGeek @ 5:09 - when WOW came out it was an unpolished piece of turd
riiiight...
It was, or are you having selective memory? Servers going up and down, constantly having to tweak item, UI, basic class functions.....
WoW in its first few months was horrible.
I do have to point out polish or unpolished really doesn't matter. Comparing WoW's first days to this game is pretty stupid. When WoW was released, the market wasn't saturated with 100s of MMOs. There was no guidelines, and there was no major "expectations" if how an mmo should be.
Gods, I *wish* we could get away from the underlined somehow.
The problem is, unless you're familiar with the game or clicking through all the voice overs 4-6 hours doesn't get you to level 10. Whoever at Zenimax thought it would be a brilliant idea to gate the PvP behind a 10 hour quest grind should probably not still have a job. The critics played a reasonable amount of time and correctly identified that the 1-9 experience was subpar even compared to "unsuccessful" games like SWTOR and gw2.
I think those are two separate issues.1, the "questing" from 1-10 is not sub par or at least "to my opinion" it is not sub par. I do however agree that there are sections that aren't good but can't go into detail2, I agree, the pvp should not be behind a level 10 wall. If there are players who do not like pve or do not like ESO's pve then that is a huge issue. You as a beta tester should make your feelings known. I know I will.edit: general question: does Guild Wars 2 have a level minimum to take part in its pvp?
WvW is accessible in about 10 minutes after character creation.
On paper the ESO quests seem to stack up well against other mmos, and I hate to judge an mmo on how much fun I had, but that was my issue. I've never lost interest in a new quality mmo that fast before, the quest just completely lost all their shine well before level 10. So personally I found 1-10 in gw2 and SWTOR both far more enjoyable.
odd, that's how i felt about GW2. honestly, GW2's story mode is horrendous and far inferior to both SWTOR and ESO's, not even comparable.
oh and i can't play a game where i don't feel like i am getting any stronger or look any better as i level up.
People keeps saying its the finished game. They already proven in last patch they are listening to people and started fixing for instance clunky animation, like female running.. Looked like shit. FIXED, and they said theyre gonna comprahen fixing combat animations.
So since these arent bug but actually like game content cause u have to watch it all the time. The game arent finished, they are still working on it.
Some people keeps saying, under 1 month till release? Either u drank to much or you simply didnt read anything about the game before writing here.
Originally posted by a6point6 People keeps saying its the finished game. They already proven in last patch they are listening to people and started fixing for instance clunky animation, like female running.. Looked like shit. FIXED, and they said theyre gonna comprahen fixing combat animations.So since these arent bug but actually like game content cause u have to watch it all the time. The game arent finished, they are still working on it.Some people keeps saying, under 1 month till release? Either u drank to much or you simply didnt read anything about the game before writing here.
to add further, 2 betas ago the voice acting was robotic, and now its fully functioning. So they are continuing to work and make improvements.The lighting and graphics performance were much better this phase as well
First off, sorry for the loss of colored text in the first post
This what almost every MMO does during the final parts of beta testing. They are spit and polishing the game, NOT making MAJOR changes. I don't think anyone was not going to buy the game because the animations were clunky, though maybe some players were thinking this, or because the female models running animations looked weird.
The main complaints about TES:O are not easily fixed or patched objections. Many involve major changes to the game. These will NOT be happening in the next few weeks before it releases.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by a6point6 People keeps saying its the finished game. They already proven in last patch they are listening to people and started fixing for instance clunky animation, like female running.. Looked like shit. FIXED, and they said theyre gonna comprahen fixing combat animations.
So since these arent bug but actually like game content cause u have to watch it all the time. The game arent finished, they are still working on it.
Some people keeps saying, under 1 month till release? Either u drank to much or you simply didnt read anything about the game before writing here.
to add further, 2 betas ago the voice acting was robotic, and now its fully functioning. So they are continuing to work and make improvements.
The lighting and graphics performance were much better this phase as well
First off, sorry for the loss of colored text in the first post
This what almost every MMO does during the final parts of beta testing. They are spit and polishing the game, NOT making MAJOR changes. I don't think anyone was not going to buy the game because the animations were clunky, though maybe some players were thinking this, or because the female models running animations looked weird.
The main complaints about TES:O are not easily fixed or patched objections. Many involve major changes to the game. These will NOT be happening in the next few weeks before it releases.
Here are the complaints I've heard:
1. The game isn't worth a subscription.
2. The armor looks painted on.
3. Uhhhhh..... this other guy hates it, so I hate it too.
4. It sucks that they offer a Special Edition with Special Features that can only be obtained by purchasing the Special Edition (.... because no game has ever done THAT before.)
That about sums it up. This is basically what every major preview has said, and what everyone on these forums automatically knows to be certain, because apparently, everyone on these forums has tried the beta during multiple weekends.
All of this roughly translates into the same reason for not playing it as, "the animations were clunky", except for, "This isn't worth a subscription." which is about as vague as you can possibly get.
How exactly do any of these complaints involve major changes that if they were to happen, would suddenly make the game the greatest thing ever that everyone would want to play? SImply put... they wouldn't.
3. Uhhhhh..... this other guy hates it, so I hate it too.
4. It sucks that they offer a Special Edition with Special Features that can only be obtained by purchasing the Special Edition (.... because no game has ever done THAT before.)
These complaints are non-issues.
These are the common complaints i hear:
1. The game feels like a generic MMO just in an elder scrolls skin
3. Uhhhhh..... this other guy hates it, so I hate it too.
4. It sucks that they offer a Special Edition with Special Features that can only be obtained by purchasing the Special Edition (.... because no game has ever done THAT before.)
These complaints are non-issues.
These are the common complaints i hear:
1. The game feels like a generic MMO just in an elder scrolls skin
2. It's boring (at least at the early levels)
3. The combat is disappointing
Not exactly non-issues IMO.
1. This is a vague statement. I can't do anything with an abstract, and neither can the devs.
2. Alright... so the first few levels are boring. Counter that with the fact that it's been almost unanimous that anyone who has played more than that, can say it actually isn't boring.
3. The combat is disappointing? It's exactly like Skyrim, lol. I mean seriously... what else do you want?
3. Uhhhhh..... this other guy hates it, so I hate it too.
4. It sucks that they offer a Special Edition with Special Features that can only be obtained by purchasing the Special Edition (.... because no game has ever done THAT before.)
These complaints are non-issues.
These are the common complaints i hear:
1. The game feels like a generic MMO just in an elder scrolls skin
2. It's boring (at least at the early levels)
3. The combat is disappointing
Not exactly non-issues IMO.
1. This is a vague statement. I can't do anything with an abstract, and neither can the devs.
2. Alright... so the first few levels are boring. Counter that with the fact that it's been almost unanimous that anyone who has played more than that, can say it actually isn't boring.
3. The combat is disappointing? It's exactly like Skyrim, lol. I mean seriously... what else do you want?
How are these not non-issues?
Yep, boring generic MMO with poor combat... pfft, non issues i tell ya!
are people really still crying about the NDA when literally ANYONE who wanted to see for themselves could have this past weekend?
I know seriously, these guys are playing clash of the forum titans while there was 500,000 beta keys available to the public... for any one to play for free... Anyone who complains about the NDA apparently doesn't actually know how much about the game is truly available to the public. Hell, I had 3 keys myself that I gave away for free last weekend, NA and EU megaservers were super packed, if they wanted to do anything but whine they would have just got one and played. I suppose that means NDA only applies to anyone who doesn't want to play. I feel like part of some Secret Society that's more of a cruel joke to people on the outside.
Edit: I will like to point out this extends to many people still posting about it in the ESO forums, not specifically this thread.
Originally posted by Notimeforbs Here are the complaints I've heard: 1. The game isn't worth a subscription. 2. The armor looks painted on. 3. Uhhhhh..... this other guy hates it, so I hate it too. 4. It sucks that they offer a Special Edition with Special Features that can only be obtained by purchasing the Special Edition (.... because no game has ever done THAT before.)These complaints are non-issues.
These are the common complaints i hear: 1. The game feels like a generic MMO just in an elder scrolls skin 2. It's boring (at least at the early levels) 3. The combat is disappointingNot exactly non-issues IMO.
1. This is a vague statement. I can't do anything with an abstract, and neither can the devs.2. Alright... so the first few levels are boring. Counter that with the fact that it's been almost unanimous that anyone who has played more than that, can say it actually isn't boring.3. The combat is disappointing? It's exactly like Skyrim, lol. I mean seriously... what else do you want?How are these not non-issues?
First off, the 4 issues that you stated in the first post were ALL you've read? Methinks thou needest a reading comprehension course. Pronto. Sounds more like a disgruntled fan of the game getting pissy, selecting ONLY the most inane arguments they can come up with.
Secondly, your attempts at "counterarguments": 1) What about TES:O is different form any other MMO ever released? It takes place in Tamriel with Tamrielic places and races.
2) Cite your sources for this "almost unanimous consensus" that you throw into the mix. I have not heard of these "reviews." (Considering NDA and what the highest level played thus far...)
3) In Skyrim, I run INTO opponents and stop. TES:O? Nope. Here, I get to play "Ghost Man!"
When my character equips a staff, they NEVER get "additional skills" just because they did. They may get a spell they did not previously have, but not like TES:O does it. Nor did they with ANY weapon they equipped.
In Skyrim, it matters NOT what class my character (there are NO classes, by the way) nor what skills are available to them at any given time. In other words, NO class locked skills/abilities exist in Skyrim.
Have you even played Skyrim?
I get that you're torqued off at all the bad press for your "Holy Grail" of an MMO. Ignore it. Have fun in your game. Belittling those who disagree with you is kind of childish, don't you think?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I really don't understand what page you guys are on, to be honest with you he is actually right. A critic has to be profession about his job and playing a game from level 1-5 then trying to hand that out only robs the gamer who listens to them. I for one have a serious problem with some idiot like Angry Joe who sits there listening to people in the background tell him what his opinions are and he voices them out like he thought of them.
I noticed some people say that he is totally defending this game however he did what he was supposed to do as a profession and that was tell the good parts of it and tell the bad parts of it then give his opinion as a whole. What was it you were expecting? Were you expecting him not to talk about how unprofessional these other critics are with this game? I mean seriously what does giving negative reviews on a game have to do with the fact of making $20 dollars off selling of a class like The Imperial class? Yet many of the critics based their whole outlook on this but I see no one but this dude checking them on it.
And for those of you who don't know: Critics are themselves subject to competing critics, since critical judgments always entail subjectivity.
I tried to make this exact point on A.J's video . You just cant get any kind of a proper feel for a game in the starter area. Critics on either side of the fence aren't doing any good at all when making loud judgment when they cant possibly know what the hell they are talking about. I will reserve judgment until I play the game- which I intend to do!
Originally posted by Notimeforbs Here are the complaints I've heard: 1. The game isn't worth a subscription. 2. The armor looks painted on. 3. Uhhhhh..... this other guy hates it, so I hate it too. 4. It sucks that they offer a Special Edition with Special Features that can only be obtained by purchasing the Special Edition (.... because no game has ever done THAT before.)
These complaints are non-issues.
These are the common complaints i hear: 1. The game feels like a generic MMO just in an elder scrolls skin 2. It's boring (at least at the early levels) 3. The combat is disappointing
Not exactly non-issues IMO.
1. This is a vague statement. I can't do anything with an abstract, and neither can the devs.
2. Alright... so the first few levels are boring. Counter that with the fact that it's been almost unanimous that anyone who has played more than that, can say it actually isn't boring.
3. The combat is disappointing? It's exactly like Skyrim, lol. I mean seriously... what else do you want?
How are these not non-issues?
First off, the 4 issues that you stated in the first post were ALL you've read? Methinks thou needest a reading comprehension course. Pronto. Sounds more like a disgruntled fan of the game getting pissy, selecting ONLY the most inane arguments they can come up with.
Secondly, your attempts at "counterarguments": 1) What about TES:O is different form any other MMO ever released? It takes place in Tamriel with Tamrielic places and races.
2) Cite your sources for this "almost unanimous consensus" that you throw into the mix. I have not heard of these "reviews." (Considering NDA and what the highest level played thus far...)
3) In Skyrim, I run INTO opponents and stop. TES:O? Nope. Here, I get to play "Ghost Man!"
When my character equips a staff, they NEVER get "additional skills" just because they did. They may get a spell they did not previously have, but not like TES:O does it. Nor did they with ANY weapon they equipped.
In Skyrim, it matters NOT what class my character (there are NO classes, by the way) nor what skills are available to them at any given time. In other words, NO class locked skills/abilities exist in Skyrim.
Have you even played Skyrim?
I get that you're torqued off at all the bad press for your "Holy Grail" of an MMO. Ignore it. Have fun in your game. Belittling those who disagree with you is kind of childish, don't you think?
1. I agree, the 4 complaints I listed WERE inane. And they were pretty much the biggest gripes that everyone raps off like they matter. I don't see you listing anything different that would be any less inane or any less vague. The list I provided isn't superfluous just because you say they are. If they're so pointless, then how about listing your own complaints? You failed to do that.
2. While yes it does take place in TES setting, there's plenty more that is different. At it's core, is it a completely unheard of experience for an MMO? I certainly don't know - I haven't played enough of it to give a definitive answer. What I have played had a lot of new experiences, and a lot of familiar experiences. That's all I can really testify to. But then... most games in their genre are that way. In fact, it's quite easy to see how one TES title changed from its direct predecessor, but kept core elements relatively the same. Was Skyrim totally different than Oblivion? Not really. But it had enough to warrant it as a new experience.
TESO has enough variety in specific areas to warrant it different from other MMO's - at least to my preferences. My point is that if you want to call it generic - okay. But you have to be specific with what you mean by generic. I had a perfect illustration of why saying vague, blanket statements is pointless. It also explained that vague, blanket statements give no reason whatsoever for anyone who could change things to be better to your liking would ever take your complaints seriously. If you can't explain how something is generic, then tough cookies. People can't read minds and extrapolate meaning from your words. But for some reason, you feel like you have some sort of authority to bypass your responsibility to what you say, and hold others to theirs by requiring evidence. Which leads me to -
3. I'm not citing anything. Citing sources wouldn't prove anything to you, and you know it. You would still march on with your argument. What, so maybe 20 people say it's good? What if it's 50 or 100? If 100 people thought the game was fantastic, would you change your mind about the game? Do their opinions really matter that much to you? Can you not like a game based on your own merit?
You wouldn't care either way. You'll just write off some excuse as to why they're wrong, like you're trying to do to me right now. You're not providing ANY evidence with your claims, and yet you insist on requiring some from me? Where do you get off?
Providing you with any sources would be a waste of my time. Also, if you HAVEN'T seen the previews that relate exactly how I've described it, then you have narrowed your research down to only what you want to hear. That's just plain awful research. Instead, how about this. How about YOU find ME sources that differ from your perspective, and then explain to me why they are wrong. Otherwise, your point on this is more or less going to remain a stale-mate.
And honestly, I don't really want to waste time meeting your ridiculous demands. You don't really deserve that sort of effort investment from me, especially when you can't even be bothered with providing me with specific examples of what you're talking about, and explain to me why they matter other than your opinion.
4. Play "Ghost Man!"? What does that even mean? More with the vague statements. If you want to survive communication in this world, you have to pretend that everyone else who exists doesn't understand your off-the-wall references to something unspecific.
Yes, I played Skyrim. But this game isn't Skyrim Online. It's The Elder Scrolls Online. Skyrim was the fifth installment of that series. That means there were 4 games that came before it. And for the most part, they all had different ways of presenting common elements in the game, while keeping some things the same. TES has had a history of providing you with Classes. Hell, even Oblivion had classes. While I wouldn't suggest that it was exactly like how it is in TESO, I can't say it's much different. So you're just outright wrong here.
Moreover, again, I reiterate - this isn't Skyrim Online. It's an MMO. And with an MMO comes certain conventions that MMO players expect. MMO players expect to be able to pick the skills they want and to upgrade them in some manner. Frankly, I think the way TESO handles it is pretty slick in balancing the expectations of MMO players and TES fans. This is called compromise. As a fan of TES, I get something out of it, and people who are MMO fans get something out of it. What exactly is the problem, here?
You're being a little bit selfish in your expectations for this game, honestly, man. Other people have different expectations for this game other than you. If you can't meet them halfway on it, then you and I need to stop this conversation right now. It would be obvious that you have no intention on seeing things in any other way.
Originally posted by Notimeforbs 1. I agree, the 4 complaints I listed WERE inane. And they were pretty much the biggest gripes that everyone raps off like they matter. I don't see you listing anything different that would be any less inane or any less vague. The list I provided isn't superfluous just because you say they are. If they're so pointless, then how about listing your own complaints? You failed to do that.2. While yes it does take place in TES setting, there's plenty more that is different. At it's core, is it a completely unheard of experience for an MMO? I certainly don't know - I haven't played enough of it to give a definitive answer. What I have played had a lot of new experiences, and a lot of familiar experiences. That's all I can really testify to. But then... most games in their genre are that way. In fact, it's quite easy to see how one TES title changed from its direct predecessor, but kept core elements relatively the same. Was Skyrim totally different than Oblivion? Not really. But it had enough to warrant it as a new experience.TESO has enough variety in specific areas to warrant it different from other MMO's - at least to my preferences. My point is that if you want to call it generic - okay. But you have to be specific with what you mean by generic. I had a perfect illustration of why saying vague, blanket statements is pointless. It also explained that vague, blanket statements give no reason whatsoever for anyone who could change things to be better to your liking would ever take your complaints seriously. If you can't explain how something is generic, then tough cookies. People can't read minds and extrapolate meaning from your words. But for some reason, you feel like you have some sort of authority to bypass your responsibility to what you say, and hold others to theirs by requiring evidence. Which leads me to -3. I'm not citing anything. Citing sources wouldn't prove anything to you, and you know it. You would still march on with your argument. What, so maybe 20 people say it's good? What if it's 50 or 100? If 100 people thought the game was fantastic, would you change your mind about the game? Do their opinions really matter that much to you? Can you not like a game based on your own merit?You wouldn't care either way. You'll just write off some excuse as to why they're wrong, like you're trying to do to me right now. You're not providing ANY evidence with your claims, and yet you insist on requiring some from me? Where do you get off?Providing you with any sources would be a waste of my time. Also, if you HAVEN'T seen the previews that relate exactly how I've described it, then you have narrowed your research down to only what you want to hear. That's just plain awful research. Instead, how about this. How about YOU find ME sources that differ from your perspective, and then explain to me why they are wrong. Otherwise, your point on this is more or less going to remain a stale-mate.And honestly, I don't really want to waste time meeting your ridiculous demands. You don't really deserve that sort of effort investment from me, especially when you can't even be bothered with providing me with specific examples of what you're talking about, and explain to me why they matter other than your opinion.4. Play "Ghost Man!"? What does that even mean? More with the vague statements. If you want to survive communication in this world, you have to pretend that everyone else who exists doesn't understand your off-the-wall references to something unspecific.Yes, I played Skyrim. But this game isn't Skyrim Online. It's The Elder Scrolls Online. Skyrim was the fifth installment of that series. That means there were 4 games that came before it. And for the most part, they all had different ways of presenting common elements in the game, while keeping some things the same. TES has had a history of providing you with Classes. Hell, even Oblivion had classes. While I wouldn't suggest that it was exactly like how it is in TESO, I can't say it's much different. So you're just outright wrong here.Moreover, again, I reiterate - this isn't Skyrim Online. It's an MMO. And with an MMO comes certain conventions that MMO players expect. MMO players expect to be able to pick the skills they want and to upgrade them in some manner. Frankly, I think the way TESO handles it is pretty slick in balancing the expectations of MMO players and TES fans. This is called compromise. As a fan of TES, I get something out of it, and people who are MMO fans get something out of it. What exactly is the problem, here?You're being a little bit selfish in your expectations for this game, honestly, man. Other people have different expectations for this game other than you. If you can't meet them halfway on it, then you and I need to stop this conversation right now. It would be obvious that you have no intention on seeing things in any other way.
This is getting ridiculous.
1a) Can you post 5 web comments (video or message boards) where the person says, "I don't like because <random person here> does not like it." I do not think I have seen this response yet. I admit I have not seen the whole internet, so I could have very well missed this one. But you "imply" it is rampant, and rates a mention as a "major complaint", so I hope you have some kind of source to back up your claim besides the "I said so!" defense. (This also applies later on to point #3.)
1b) Of course, your reading comprehension is in play again. I have posted quite a bit about *my* complaints with TES:O. Here is a post I made back at the end of April. It explains my complaints fairly well, and specifically. Your points are superfluous because you can not back up the your own statement, "These are the main reasons I read." I have read many, many similar specific complaints with TES:O. You apparently missed ALL those posts and videos.
Here is a HUGE misconception that players have with TES:O and a complaint of mine. It is NOT an open world like the previous Elder Scrolls games. At first level, a player can NOT go anywhere at any time. Level 10 is the requirement for PvP in Cyrodiil, so that is not available. Level 50 is the requirement for seeing ANY of the other 2 faction areas, so 2/3 of the game are not even available at the beginning of the game. To be honest, this concept does not work well in MMOs, which is why TES:O is first and foremost, an MMO, not an Elders Scrolls game.
2a) Like you, I have played a bit of TES:O. From *my* experience, there is NOT a lot that differentiates it from any other MMORPG. I do not "project" anything "coming up in later game stages" as many here do. I knew right off the bat that TES:O was not a world I desired to spend time in. As I played the beta, it reinforced my opinions.
2b) Skyrim was a HUGE change from Oblivion and Morrowind before it. Gone from the TES universe are attributes, birthsigns, classes, pole arms, major and minor skills, and a few other specific things. Gone are the RPG aspects from the previous games. Gone is spell making and whole schools of magic and many spells, like open locks. Gone are guild requirements. Any non-magic user can become the Arch Mage at The College of Winterhold, or spell wielder the Harbinger of The Companions.
2c) Your "perfect illustration" was about some person calling a room "obtuse." Know what came to my mind when I read that? The room's angles were not 90 degrees. What an "obtuse" example. I get the gist of your example, but you fail to READ what others have specified as their problems with TES:O, instead making the most poor examples as the standard. I call bullshit. Prove it.
3a) Citing examples would matter to me. It would show me you're not talking out of your ass. If you don't feel the need to cite (because I believe you can NOT do so), so be it. Talk out of your ass all you desire. I'll call bullshit each and every time, though I try to avoid the TES:O boards. 10, 20, 50, or even 100 people saying it is good does NOT a "near unanimous consensus" make when the same amount can be cited with opposing views. Heck, "near unanimous consensus" means a handful would do the trick. Hyperbole much? I very much DO judge games for *me* on my own merit. However, unlike most players that buy every game that gets released, I spend my money wisely. Reviews can often times give me the information I need to make an INFORMED decision. Do you learn anything from reviews, or do you buy every game because "You know best!" If so, why are you even here debating a review that you care nothing about?
3b) Non argument. I will give you ALL the information you ask. It won't mater to you, though. You, on the other hand, refuse to cite your sources for your terrible, over-broad statements. I will NOT be playing TES:O, so the NDA means nothing to me, but I do desire to honor my agreement, so I will do so by PMs.
3c) Providing sources WOULD be a waste of your time because you CAN NOT find them. Providing these sources would give your statements credibility. Apparently, you don't care about that. It would matter to me. What I do not care about is your opinion on the game. But when you try to rope in opinions that agree with you, and they are NOT there, I will call you out. That is where "I get off" calling a spade a spade. It is NOT my job to prove your points. It is YOUR responsibility. I'm NOT going to do YOUR WORK for you. Get off your lazy ass and do some research before making broad, over-generalizing statements. Be prepared to back up your claims. Like a bibliography for a paper, be prepared to defend your statements. Of course, this can all be avoided by simply stating that "this is my opinion." You decided NOT to take that route.
3d) Again, in other words,. you can not find these statements that you say "are near unanimous." So be it...
4a) "Ghost Man." A SPECIFIC point about combat that you decided to ignore with, I am thinking is feigned stupidity, but maybe not? "Ghost Man." Your character meets NO resistance when running into an opponent, meaning you run right through them, like a "ghost." No collision detection in TES:O.
The rest is rather of pointless. Duh. TES:O is NOT Skyrim online. Personally, I NEVER wanted Skyrim online. However, Morrowind Online would have been sweet!
Let me close out by saying that I am not wanting TES:O to change to "fit my expectations." Zenimax has lost a lot of respect from me for the changes it has already made. By all means, create a game with a vision. Stick to it. Changing it on the players whining is bad for business.
To be clear, I have NO qualms with your opinions on TES:O. My gripes are with how you presented your opinions as fact. I called you out and you blew me off. That says all I need to know.
Again, play the game. Enjoy your time. But don't make statements like you did and expect people to fawn over themselves just because *you* said it. Be prepared to back them up.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I've never heard more excuses jam packed into 20min.
He's got every excuse in the book covered, it's beta, it's unfinished, it's NDA, and on and on
The entire video was about critics not taking enough time to review the game. It matters not what their final opinion is. The point was spending enough time to cover what a game offers. Hitting level 5-8 doesn't even get a player past the starter zones and into pvp. It gives no time to raise crafting adequately to review. There is logic in what he is saying.
You miss the entire point of the review to reinforce your dislike for the game. He gave at least 2 analogies, both of which you seem to not have understood. Let me give you another one: Imagine 2 critics reviewing a car. One drives the car for a week including city commutes and long distance driving. The other drives the car around parking lot for 15 minutes. Both give poor reviews of the car. Who do you think has a more detailed review? Who was the more professional car reviewer?
Whether you like the opinion of the critic, hmm how do I put this, DOESN'T ****ING MATTER!
analogies are funny things and don't always work out the way you expect take yours for instance. I could argue that the critic who spent 15 minutes is the better professional because he determined in a short amount Of time what it took the other reviewer an hour to do and came to the same conclusion.
The funny thing is I can say that the the guy who review the car for whole hour is the better professional, because he took is time to analyze the car and give it time to see what kind of experience he had with it.
You know some time you need to give a piece of art sometime to understand. Sometimes it take patients to look at a piece of art to fully understand it. There was some games in the past I hated at first, than I gave it some time, after that I ended up liking it a lot.
"A bunch of non-sense. Do your homework. More non-sense. Meet my demands, because... I say so. More non-sense."
Well, that was a very thorough and thought provoking examination, AlBQuirky.
If I had had the foresight to bookmark every time I read or watched a video, over the months, of someone saying, "Hey, TESO doesn't suck after all!" in response to their experience of the game after they actually got through the opening areas... I would be able to provide you with all the sources you could ever want. Unfortunately, I never felt inclined or motivated enough to keep that much information readily available at a moment's notice... about a video game. Probably because they're just someone else's opinion about a video game, and that doesn't mean much to me until I can confirm it for myself. Which eventually, I was awarded the opportunity.
If I had known that some guy who needs evidence from every random person he gets into a discussion with on a game forum over a few comments about a video game that person made in a passive manner one afternoon while taking a break from work... I would have made different choices about collecting this sort of information - I assure you.
In the event that you can't handle any of this, let me save you the trouble of feeling like you still need to remind everyone that you're the man in charge. I'm sorry that my terminology and momentary lack of judgment allowed me to write the words, "almost unanimously" in reference to what I experienced. At the time, I felt like that was an accurate statement. I now realize after you have granted me insight into your infinite wisdom that I was actually mistaken in my experience. Still, had I known that I would have to so earnestly prove my experience about random readings and viewings of previews about a video game in a similar way people need to prove to everyone that they met aliens... I would have been more prepared.
You said it right, pal... this has gotten ridiculous.
... And you're the man in charge.
Moreover, besides the fact that I'm not going to meet your silly demands - frankly, it's laughable that you would even remotely consider treating this issue as if it were my term paper in college, or this were some debate about evolution vs religion.
You must have gone to college. Unfortunately, what they don't teach you in college is that when you are in a casual, social environment - much like the one we're in now - none of that matters unless you can't deal with the fact that other people have a different perspective on things. Which.... I mean.... I don't want to insult you... but...
At any rate, I'm also sorry I did not treat this topic with a serious enough intent from the beginning. Had I known you would be lurking about just waiting to pounce on a casual comment about a video game with your encyclopedia of journalistic history about TESO... I would have chosen my words better.
In light of all this, I do have some further comments:
1. Your reference to "Ghost Man" was incoherent to me at the time. But now that you have explained to me how it was a reference to zero collision detection between characters in the game, I can fully understand the reference. I can understand the reference, now, because you have provided me with a reference point. But, you're right... that's not an excuse. How I was unable to make the connection before you actually gave qualifying information about the phrase, I don't know. How obtuse of me.
Unfortunately, your explanation of what "Ghost Man" actually means.... doesn't provide an explanation of why it matters. Which leads me to....
2. In my illustration about the room being obtuse, which you obviously missed the satire in - the point wasn't to show that the person didn't know what the word "obtuse" meant. I'm glad that you took the time to look it up, however. No, it was to show that they cannot explain in better detail what they mean by using the word.
People say things all the time. When other people listen, and they become confused about how words are being used, they typically ask for clarification. Sort of like how I asked you about "Ghost Man", and how you should have asked about "almost unanimous" but decided to have a confrontation and a contest of wits instead - to which I simply am not interested in playing. At least... not by your standards - because as we have already established - needing evidence to support a comment about a video game is quite ridiculous.
Unlike the illustration, however, you actually gave me more clarification to my question about "Ghost Man." Which means that we can now move on with the next logical question that I've already asked: why does collision detection matter that much? I don't need evidence for this answer. It's just a casual question.
Communication works well in this way, you see? Two people discuss a topic by expressing ideas. When one person has a question - they ask for clarification. This is how you make friends. This is how you have a conversation. You don't make friends by demanding they enter a realm of competition with you. Doing that is called bullying.
Bullies are great at abusing other people. But in all fairness, Bullies can have friends too. But these aren't real friends. These are just people who don't know how to tell the Bully they're being ridiculous.
You sir, are being ridiculous with your silly demands.
In fact, when someone starts making silly demands, you treat them like you would someone who is behaving silly. And above all else... you do not give in to their demands, especially over something so ridiculous - which it almost always is in a casual environment such as a video game forum, which is why it never occurred to me to ever need to collect sources of what I say here in the first place. And even if it did occur to me... I still wouldn't appease to your silly demands.
3. Citing examples matters to you. Congratulations! I don't care....
4. .... Because this is a video game forum - not a college thesis or a debate that risks the possibility of redefining civilization.
5. But since I enjoy educating people about functional communication, which involves expressing and enforcing functional and reasonable expectations with whomever it is you are trying to speak with, I don't really mind going into more detail about how you are being ridiculous. In fact... you're being a great student by allowing me the opportunity to discipline you.
Discipline is the foundation of progress. This statement is proven by direct observation of life. Observe: When you are trying to accomplish a goal, you do so by learning how to accomplish it. Learning is a process of making corrections in your failures. Failure to accomplish a goal will invoke upon you an unsatisfactory outcome. This is called a consequence. Consequences innately carry with them the ability to discipline you to not fail. Through the process of discipline, you learn to produce satisfactory results. These are called rewards. Rewards symbolize that you have acquired accomplishment. When you acquire an accomplishment, you have made progress. Thus, discipline is the foundation of progress.
Your reply will establish whether or not you are making progress in this conversation. Somehow, I suspect you will need more discipline.
6. TLDR version:
This conversation is ridiculous. You made it ridiculous with your ridiculous demands for evidence to support a casual comment about a video game. To which I continue to refuse to even attempt to provide, not only because I do not reward people who make ridiculous demands, but also because it's ridiculous that you would even need it in the first place in this sort of environment.
You can twist this up all you want... but that's the simple truth of what's going on in our conversation.
Comments
What happens if someone breaks the NDA? If someone really wanted to break it and go sell "ideas" to another company, could they? COULD they?
Go visit Tamriel Foundry. They have about as much information on the game as one can have, all from Zenimax released articels and videos.
You are truly cracked in the head if you think at this point in time, ANYONE can get a game released BEFORE TES:O releases in a few weeks...
There is NO for reason Zenimax to keep the NDA in place except one. They are scared shitless.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
lol..It's called padding your street cred. Have to follow what the loudest minority is doing so you look good to the others. I'm sure lots of the people who bash themepark games, complain about P2P games, and so on are really closet themepark junkies whom get their WOW fix every night. Lets not forget all the armchair developers and clairvoyants in that vocal group.
I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.
this game needs another two years that would have looked like Virtuous game, and 3 to look like a Skirim
not even worth to buy nor the monthly salary
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Steam: Neph
ITT: A whole lot of people who didn't understand what this guy was saying when he was bashing other critics.
His whole gripe was about certain critics who spent a total of 3-8 hours in game over an entire 3 day span, then wrote a preview based on that. When you're a game critic, there is no argument you can come up with to justify this behavior, because it is literally your job to play a game. That's lazy fucking work, and, whether they gave a positive or negative report on the game, the readers shouldn't put up with that.
It's their job to take the time to investigate in depth and report on something that their readership likely doesn't have access to, whether they like the game or not.
Not exactly - truth doesn't need excuses because it is justified by merit of its own existence.
TESO IS in Beta.
it IS unfinished.
it IS under NDA.
For one, these are not excuses - they are simply the current existence of what TESO is. Thus, they are truth.
For two, what you're doing is twisting the facts up to suit your own agenda. And... you're simply wrong for doing it. These qualities do not justify your opinion, and no one with any sense of morality would ever confuse that. They justify the truth - which is that TESO is exactly what the justification says it is. It is nothing more and nothing less.
And for three - your inability to accept the truth does not give weight to your accusations. What it does is render you in denial of the truth.
For four - there have been given no excuses by the people whose word actually matters: Zenimax. They've given no excuses to anything. The only people qualified to defend the game, is them. And they simply have no need to provide a defense, which to me, gives reason to suspect they have faith in their product. It's one thing if they are under NDA and gave a defense to the accusations. It's another thing if they're under NDA and give no defense to the accusations. As you say... the truth doesn't need excuses - and they've given none.
As for the truth needing to be hidden.... what do you think the NDA is for exactly? I'll give you some options:
1. Protecting the integrity of the story of a game deeply seeded in TES lore which reflects the same level of secrecy that prior installments of the series employed, not to mention it is standard practice for any creative entity to keep things secret until it is finished?
2. To protect the integrity of a dev team that doesn't have faith in a product they've spent the past 3-5 years developing?
Which do you think is more likely?
Gods, I *wish* we could get away from the underlined somehow.
odd, that's how i felt about GW2. honestly, GW2's story mode is horrendous and far inferior to both SWTOR and ESO's, not even comparable.
oh and i can't play a game where i don't feel like i am getting any stronger or look any better as i level up.
so yeah, everyone has an opinion i guess.
are people really still crying about the NDA when literally ANYONE who wanted to see for themselves could have this past weekend?
People keeps saying its the finished game. They already proven in last patch they are listening to people and started fixing for instance clunky animation, like female running.. Looked like shit. FIXED, and they said theyre gonna comprahen fixing combat animations.
So since these arent bug but actually like game content cause u have to watch it all the time. The game arent finished, they are still working on it.
Some people keeps saying, under 1 month till release? Either u drank to much or you simply didnt read anything about the game before writing here.
This what almost every MMO does during the final parts of beta testing. They are spit and polishing the game, NOT making MAJOR changes. I don't think anyone was not going to buy the game because the animations were clunky, though maybe some players were thinking this, or because the female models running animations looked weird.
The main complaints about TES:O are not easily fixed or patched objections. Many involve major changes to the game. These will NOT be happening in the next few weeks before it releases.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Here are the complaints I've heard:
1. The game isn't worth a subscription.
2. The armor looks painted on.
3. Uhhhhh..... this other guy hates it, so I hate it too.
4. It sucks that they offer a Special Edition with Special Features that can only be obtained by purchasing the Special Edition (.... because no game has ever done THAT before.)
That about sums it up. This is basically what every major preview has said, and what everyone on these forums automatically knows to be certain, because apparently, everyone on these forums has tried the beta during multiple weekends.
All of this roughly translates into the same reason for not playing it as, "the animations were clunky", except for, "This isn't worth a subscription." which is about as vague as you can possibly get.
How exactly do any of these complaints involve major changes that if they were to happen, would suddenly make the game the greatest thing ever that everyone would want to play? SImply put... they wouldn't.
These complaints are non-issues.
These are the common complaints i hear:
1. The game feels like a generic MMO just in an elder scrolls skin
2. It's boring (at least at the early levels)
3. The combat is disappointing
Not exactly non-issues IMO.
1. This is a vague statement. I can't do anything with an abstract, and neither can the devs.
2. Alright... so the first few levels are boring. Counter that with the fact that it's been almost unanimous that anyone who has played more than that, can say it actually isn't boring.
3. The combat is disappointing? It's exactly like Skyrim, lol. I mean seriously... what else do you want?
How are these not non-issues?
Yep, boring generic MMO with poor combat... pfft, non issues i tell ya!
Time will tell i guess.
I know seriously, these guys are playing clash of the forum titans while there was 500,000 beta keys available to the public... for any one to play for free... Anyone who complains about the NDA apparently doesn't actually know how much about the game is truly available to the public. Hell, I had 3 keys myself that I gave away for free last weekend, NA and EU megaservers were super packed, if they wanted to do anything but whine they would have just got one and played. I suppose that means NDA only applies to anyone who doesn't want to play. I feel like part of some Secret Society that's more of a cruel joke to people on the outside.
Edit: I will like to point out this extends to many people still posting about it in the ESO forums, not specifically this thread.
Secondly, your attempts at "counterarguments":
1) What about TES:O is different form any other MMO ever released? It takes place in Tamriel with Tamrielic places and races.
2) Cite your sources for this "almost unanimous consensus" that you throw into the mix. I have not heard of these "reviews." (Considering NDA and what the highest level played thus far...)
3) In Skyrim, I run INTO opponents and stop. TES:O? Nope. Here, I get to play "Ghost Man!"
When my character equips a staff, they NEVER get "additional skills" just because they did. They may get a spell they did not previously have, but not like TES:O does it. Nor did they with ANY weapon they equipped.
In Skyrim, it matters NOT what class my character (there are NO classes, by the way) nor what skills are available to them at any given time. In other words, NO class locked skills/abilities exist in Skyrim.
Have you even played Skyrim?
I get that you're torqued off at all the bad press for your "Holy Grail" of an MMO. Ignore it. Have fun in your game. Belittling those who disagree with you is kind of childish, don't you think?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I tried to make this exact point on A.J's video . You just cant get any kind of a proper feel for a game in the starter area. Critics on either side of the fence aren't doing any good at all when making loud judgment when they cant possibly know what the hell they are talking about. I will reserve judgment until I play the game- which I intend to do!
1. I agree, the 4 complaints I listed WERE inane. And they were pretty much the biggest gripes that everyone raps off like they matter. I don't see you listing anything different that would be any less inane or any less vague. The list I provided isn't superfluous just because you say they are. If they're so pointless, then how about listing your own complaints? You failed to do that.
2. While yes it does take place in TES setting, there's plenty more that is different. At it's core, is it a completely unheard of experience for an MMO? I certainly don't know - I haven't played enough of it to give a definitive answer. What I have played had a lot of new experiences, and a lot of familiar experiences. That's all I can really testify to. But then... most games in their genre are that way. In fact, it's quite easy to see how one TES title changed from its direct predecessor, but kept core elements relatively the same. Was Skyrim totally different than Oblivion? Not really. But it had enough to warrant it as a new experience.
TESO has enough variety in specific areas to warrant it different from other MMO's - at least to my preferences. My point is that if you want to call it generic - okay. But you have to be specific with what you mean by generic. I had a perfect illustration of why saying vague, blanket statements is pointless. It also explained that vague, blanket statements give no reason whatsoever for anyone who could change things to be better to your liking would ever take your complaints seriously. If you can't explain how something is generic, then tough cookies. People can't read minds and extrapolate meaning from your words. But for some reason, you feel like you have some sort of authority to bypass your responsibility to what you say, and hold others to theirs by requiring evidence. Which leads me to -
3. I'm not citing anything. Citing sources wouldn't prove anything to you, and you know it. You would still march on with your argument. What, so maybe 20 people say it's good? What if it's 50 or 100? If 100 people thought the game was fantastic, would you change your mind about the game? Do their opinions really matter that much to you? Can you not like a game based on your own merit?
You wouldn't care either way. You'll just write off some excuse as to why they're wrong, like you're trying to do to me right now. You're not providing ANY evidence with your claims, and yet you insist on requiring some from me? Where do you get off?
Providing you with any sources would be a waste of my time. Also, if you HAVEN'T seen the previews that relate exactly how I've described it, then you have narrowed your research down to only what you want to hear. That's just plain awful research. Instead, how about this. How about YOU find ME sources that differ from your perspective, and then explain to me why they are wrong. Otherwise, your point on this is more or less going to remain a stale-mate.
And honestly, I don't really want to waste time meeting your ridiculous demands. You don't really deserve that sort of effort investment from me, especially when you can't even be bothered with providing me with specific examples of what you're talking about, and explain to me why they matter other than your opinion.
4. Play "Ghost Man!"? What does that even mean? More with the vague statements. If you want to survive communication in this world, you have to pretend that everyone else who exists doesn't understand your off-the-wall references to something unspecific.
Yes, I played Skyrim. But this game isn't Skyrim Online. It's The Elder Scrolls Online. Skyrim was the fifth installment of that series. That means there were 4 games that came before it. And for the most part, they all had different ways of presenting common elements in the game, while keeping some things the same. TES has had a history of providing you with Classes. Hell, even Oblivion had classes. While I wouldn't suggest that it was exactly like how it is in TESO, I can't say it's much different. So you're just outright wrong here.
Moreover, again, I reiterate - this isn't Skyrim Online. It's an MMO. And with an MMO comes certain conventions that MMO players expect. MMO players expect to be able to pick the skills they want and to upgrade them in some manner. Frankly, I think the way TESO handles it is pretty slick in balancing the expectations of MMO players and TES fans. This is called compromise. As a fan of TES, I get something out of it, and people who are MMO fans get something out of it. What exactly is the problem, here?
You're being a little bit selfish in your expectations for this game, honestly, man. Other people have different expectations for this game other than you. If you can't meet them halfway on it, then you and I need to stop this conversation right now. It would be obvious that you have no intention on seeing things in any other way.
1a) Can you post 5 web comments (video or message boards) where the person says, "I don't like because <random person here> does not like it." I do not think I have seen this response yet. I admit I have not seen the whole internet, so I could have very well missed this one. But you "imply" it is rampant, and rates a mention as a "major complaint", so I hope you have some kind of source to back up your claim besides the "I said so!" defense. (This also applies later on to point #3.)
1b) Of course, your reading comprehension is in play again. I have posted quite a bit about *my* complaints with TES:O. Here is a post I made back at the end of April. It explains my complaints fairly well, and specifically. Your points are superfluous because you can not back up the your own statement, "These are the main reasons I read." I have read many, many similar specific complaints with TES:O. You apparently missed ALL those posts and videos.
Here is a HUGE misconception that players have with TES:O and a complaint of mine. It is NOT an open world like the previous Elder Scrolls games. At first level, a player can NOT go anywhere at any time. Level 10 is the requirement for PvP in Cyrodiil, so that is not available. Level 50 is the requirement for seeing ANY of the other 2 faction areas, so 2/3 of the game are not even available at the beginning of the game. To be honest, this concept does not work well in MMOs, which is why TES:O is first and foremost, an MMO, not an Elders Scrolls game.
2a) Like you, I have played a bit of TES:O. From *my* experience, there is NOT a lot that differentiates it from any other MMORPG. I do not "project" anything "coming up in later game stages" as many here do. I knew right off the bat that TES:O was not a world I desired to spend time in. As I played the beta, it reinforced my opinions.
2b) Skyrim was a HUGE change from Oblivion and Morrowind before it. Gone from the TES universe are attributes, birthsigns, classes, pole arms, major and minor skills, and a few other specific things. Gone are the RPG aspects from the previous games. Gone is spell making and whole schools of magic and many spells, like open locks. Gone are guild requirements. Any non-magic user can become the Arch Mage at The College of Winterhold, or spell wielder the Harbinger of The Companions.
2c) Your "perfect illustration" was about some person calling a room "obtuse." Know what came to my mind when I read that? The room's angles were not 90 degrees. What an "obtuse" example. I get the gist of your example, but you fail to READ what others have specified as their problems with TES:O, instead making the most poor examples as the standard. I call bullshit. Prove it.
3a) Citing examples would matter to me. It would show me you're not talking out of your ass. If you don't feel the need to cite (because I believe you can NOT do so), so be it. Talk out of your ass all you desire. I'll call bullshit each and every time, though I try to avoid the TES:O boards. 10, 20, 50, or even 100 people saying it is good does NOT a "near unanimous consensus" make when the same amount can be cited with opposing views. Heck, "near unanimous consensus" means a handful would do the trick. Hyperbole much? I very much DO judge games for *me* on my own merit. However, unlike most players that buy every game that gets released, I spend my money wisely. Reviews can often times give me the information I need to make an INFORMED decision. Do you learn anything from reviews, or do you buy every game because "You know best!" If so, why are you even here debating a review that you care nothing about?
3b) Non argument. I will give you ALL the information you ask. It won't mater to you, though. You, on the other hand, refuse to cite your sources for your terrible, over-broad statements. I will NOT be playing TES:O, so the NDA means nothing to me, but I do desire to honor my agreement, so I will do so by PMs.
3c) Providing sources WOULD be a waste of your time because you CAN NOT find them. Providing these sources would give your statements credibility. Apparently, you don't care about that. It would matter to me. What I do not care about is your opinion on the game. But when you try to rope in opinions that agree with you, and they are NOT there, I will call you out. That is where "I get off" calling a spade a spade. It is NOT my job to prove your points. It is YOUR responsibility. I'm NOT going to do YOUR WORK for you. Get off your lazy ass and do some research before making broad, over-generalizing statements. Be prepared to back up your claims. Like a bibliography for a paper, be prepared to defend your statements. Of course, this can all be avoided by simply stating that "this is my opinion." You decided NOT to take that route.
3d) Again, in other words,. you can not find these statements that you say "are near unanimous." So be it...
4a) "Ghost Man." A SPECIFIC point about combat that you decided to ignore with, I am thinking is feigned stupidity, but maybe not? "Ghost Man." Your character meets NO resistance when running into an opponent, meaning you run right through them, like a "ghost." No collision detection in TES:O.
The rest is rather of pointless. Duh. TES:O is NOT Skyrim online. Personally, I NEVER wanted Skyrim online. However, Morrowind Online would have been sweet!
Let me close out by saying that I am not wanting TES:O to change to "fit my expectations." Zenimax has lost a lot of respect from me for the changes it has already made. By all means, create a game with a vision. Stick to it. Changing it on the players whining is bad for business.
To be clear, I have NO qualms with your opinions on TES:O. My gripes are with how you presented your opinions as fact. I called you out and you blew me off. That says all I need to know.
Again, play the game. Enjoy your time. But don't make statements like you did and expect people to fawn over themselves just because *you* said it. Be prepared to back them up.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
The funny thing is I can say that the the guy who review the car for whole hour is the better professional, because he took is time to analyze the car and give it time to see what kind of experience he had with it.
You know some time you need to give a piece of art sometime to understand. Sometimes it take patients to look at a piece of art to fully understand it. There was some games in the past I hated at first, than I gave it some time, after that I ended up liking it a lot.
Well, that was a very thorough and thought provoking examination, AlBQuirky.
If I had had the foresight to bookmark every time I read or watched a video, over the months, of someone saying, "Hey, TESO doesn't suck after all!" in response to their experience of the game after they actually got through the opening areas... I would be able to provide you with all the sources you could ever want. Unfortunately, I never felt inclined or motivated enough to keep that much information readily available at a moment's notice... about a video game. Probably because they're just someone else's opinion about a video game, and that doesn't mean much to me until I can confirm it for myself. Which eventually, I was awarded the opportunity.
If I had known that some guy who needs evidence from every random person he gets into a discussion with on a game forum over a few comments about a video game that person made in a passive manner one afternoon while taking a break from work... I would have made different choices about collecting this sort of information - I assure you.
In the event that you can't handle any of this, let me save you the trouble of feeling like you still need to remind everyone that you're the man in charge. I'm sorry that my terminology and momentary lack of judgment allowed me to write the words, "almost unanimously" in reference to what I experienced. At the time, I felt like that was an accurate statement. I now realize after you have granted me insight into your infinite wisdom that I was actually mistaken in my experience. Still, had I known that I would have to so earnestly prove my experience about random readings and viewings of previews about a video game in a similar way people need to prove to everyone that they met aliens... I would have been more prepared.
You said it right, pal... this has gotten ridiculous.
... And you're the man in charge.
Moreover, besides the fact that I'm not going to meet your silly demands - frankly, it's laughable that you would even remotely consider treating this issue as if it were my term paper in college, or this were some debate about evolution vs religion.
You must have gone to college. Unfortunately, what they don't teach you in college is that when you are in a casual, social environment - much like the one we're in now - none of that matters unless you can't deal with the fact that other people have a different perspective on things. Which.... I mean.... I don't want to insult you... but...
At any rate, I'm also sorry I did not treat this topic with a serious enough intent from the beginning. Had I known you would be lurking about just waiting to pounce on a casual comment about a video game with your encyclopedia of journalistic history about TESO... I would have chosen my words better.
In light of all this, I do have some further comments:
1. Your reference to "Ghost Man" was incoherent to me at the time. But now that you have explained to me how it was a reference to zero collision detection between characters in the game, I can fully understand the reference. I can understand the reference, now, because you have provided me with a reference point. But, you're right... that's not an excuse. How I was unable to make the connection before you actually gave qualifying information about the phrase, I don't know. How obtuse of me.
Unfortunately, your explanation of what "Ghost Man" actually means.... doesn't provide an explanation of why it matters. Which leads me to....
2. In my illustration about the room being obtuse, which you obviously missed the satire in - the point wasn't to show that the person didn't know what the word "obtuse" meant. I'm glad that you took the time to look it up, however. No, it was to show that they cannot explain in better detail what they mean by using the word.
People say things all the time. When other people listen, and they become confused about how words are being used, they typically ask for clarification. Sort of like how I asked you about "Ghost Man", and how you should have asked about "almost unanimous" but decided to have a confrontation and a contest of wits instead - to which I simply am not interested in playing. At least... not by your standards - because as we have already established - needing evidence to support a comment about a video game is quite ridiculous.
Unlike the illustration, however, you actually gave me more clarification to my question about "Ghost Man." Which means that we can now move on with the next logical question that I've already asked: why does collision detection matter that much? I don't need evidence for this answer. It's just a casual question.
Communication works well in this way, you see? Two people discuss a topic by expressing ideas. When one person has a question - they ask for clarification. This is how you make friends. This is how you have a conversation. You don't make friends by demanding they enter a realm of competition with you. Doing that is called bullying.
Bullies are great at abusing other people. But in all fairness, Bullies can have friends too. But these aren't real friends. These are just people who don't know how to tell the Bully they're being ridiculous.
You sir, are being ridiculous with your silly demands.
In fact, when someone starts making silly demands, you treat them like you would someone who is behaving silly. And above all else... you do not give in to their demands, especially over something so ridiculous - which it almost always is in a casual environment such as a video game forum, which is why it never occurred to me to ever need to collect sources of what I say here in the first place. And even if it did occur to me... I still wouldn't appease to your silly demands.
3. Citing examples matters to you. Congratulations! I don't care....
4. .... Because this is a video game forum - not a college thesis or a debate that risks the possibility of redefining civilization.
5. But since I enjoy educating people about functional communication, which involves expressing and enforcing functional and reasonable expectations with whomever it is you are trying to speak with, I don't really mind going into more detail about how you are being ridiculous. In fact... you're being a great student by allowing me the opportunity to discipline you.
Discipline is the foundation of progress. This statement is proven by direct observation of life. Observe: When you are trying to accomplish a goal, you do so by learning how to accomplish it. Learning is a process of making corrections in your failures. Failure to accomplish a goal will invoke upon you an unsatisfactory outcome. This is called a consequence. Consequences innately carry with them the ability to discipline you to not fail. Through the process of discipline, you learn to produce satisfactory results. These are called rewards. Rewards symbolize that you have acquired accomplishment. When you acquire an accomplishment, you have made progress. Thus, discipline is the foundation of progress.
Your reply will establish whether or not you are making progress in this conversation. Somehow, I suspect you will need more discipline.
6. TLDR version:
This conversation is ridiculous. You made it ridiculous with your ridiculous demands for evidence to support a casual comment about a video game. To which I continue to refuse to even attempt to provide, not only because I do not reward people who make ridiculous demands, but also because it's ridiculous that you would even need it in the first place in this sort of environment.
You can twist this up all you want... but that's the simple truth of what's going on in our conversation.