Originally posted by Vorthanion There are a hell of a lot more players who don't like Eve Online than those that do. Copying their format is consigning yourself to mediocrity at best. Then again, they have a bevy of niche games under their corporate umbrella and aren't afraid to put yet another non-genre changing game under it.
Eve has been going for almost a decade now, the game continues to expand and improve.
Eve Online has a larger population right now - with a subscription - than either EQ1 or EQ2 had in a long time - if ever - as sub-based MMOs.
On top of that, Eve's population continues to grow year after year. No other MMO (that I'm aware of) can make that claim almost a decade into its service.
Oh yeah, and Eve still uses the subscription model. You know, the revenue model many have insisted no MMO would ever be successful with for several years now.
That is not a sign of mediocrity. That's the sign of a successful MMORPG whose developers have done a lot of things right, where many of their competitors have gotten it wrong.
And seriously, read Smedley's remarks on Eve. Seems to me his opinion doesn't reflect your own... But maybe you know more about the development and business of running a MMO than he does. Who knows.
Originally posted by Vorthanion There are a hell of a lot more players who don't like Eve Online than those that do. Copying their format is consigning yourself to mediocrity at best. Then again, they have a bevy of niche games under their corporate umbrella and aren't afraid to put yet another non-genre changing game under it.
Eve has been going for almost a decade now, the game continues to expand and improve.
Eve Online has a larger population right now - with a subscription - than either EQ1 or EQ2 had in a long time - if ever - as sub-based MMOs.
On top of that, Eve's population continues to grow year after year. No other MMO (that I'm aware of) can make that claim almost a decade into its service.
Oh yeah, and Eve still uses the subscription model. You know, the revenue model many have insisted no MMO would ever be successful with for several years now.
That is not a sign of mediocrity. That's the sign of a successful MMORPG whose developers have done everything right.
And seriously, read Smedley's remarks on Eve. Seems to me his opinion doesn't reflect your own... But maybe you know more about the development and business of running a MMO than he does. Who knows.
No...it hasn't. It's still doing good, but give us all a break from the marketing ploy.
"There are a hell of a lot more players who don't like Eve Online than those that do. "
Not an opinion...truth
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
You know many, actually millions and millions of us love pvp, but we don't like OWPvP.
EVE is a media darling despite being a pile. And people love to talk about EVE's pvp system. That's all EVE is! There is no other game in EVE. It's just PvP game with grinding materials the rest of the time. And you know what PvPers like to do? PvP. Hence the astronomical success of MOBA's and Shooters.
And no, EVE does not have "meaningful pvp" nor does is have a "player run game" because there is nothing else in the game to do. The entire game is predicated upon grinding mats to build ships to then subsequently lose them in a battle. Does sisyphus ring a bell here?
There's a small contingent of players who like the grind to PvP playstyle and I'm glad you enjoy it, but I hope EQN doesn't choose to make the entire game PvP focused, that'll be a shame.
I don't think bringing up Sisyphus in this crowd is going to get you very far, lol.
He'll get it up there for good... one of these times.
Originally posted by Gaeluian I'll add my voice, in that, if EQN is a FFA PVP only, then, I'll cancel my all-access account and move on to other games and just be done with SOE for good. I'm sure, I'm not alone on this.
SOE isn't stupid, they'll have pve and pvp servers...don't qq to much...get some care for that bear lol
Incognito www.incognito-gaming.us "You're either with us or against us"
Originally posted by Bidwood not going to ignore Smedley. I love him. he is going to do amazing things to the genre.
And then two years into it, he's going to change his mind and gut the game to make it completely different because what people want is whatever Blizzard is doing in their game.
Sadly, I have a feeling this would be the case as well.
Smedley knows the talk. He knows the right things to say to get people interested. He's seldom sincere about any of it. He'd promise the moon if he thought it would get more money in his/SOE's pockets.
Once upon a time, he said that none of their existing MMOs would ever move to a Cash Shop/F2P type system, because those games weren't built around such a thing, however future games would likely embrace that approach. Months later, they announce EQ2 going F2P with a cash shop.
When Smedley talks, just assume he's spinning some good PR to get people interested, believe none of it, and you'll be better off.
Originally posted by TangentPoint Originally posted by VorthanionThere are a hell of a lot more players who don't like Eve Online than those that do. Copying their format is consigning yourself to mediocrity at best. Then again, they have a bevy of niche games under their corporate umbrella and aren't afraid to put yet another non-genre changing game under it.
Eve has been going for almost a decade now, the game continues to expand and improve.
Eve Online has a larger population right now - with a subscription - than either EQ1 or EQ2 had in a long time - if ever - as sub-based MMOs.
On top of that, Eve's population continues to grow year after year. No other MMO (that I'm aware of) can make that claim almost a decade into its service.
Oh yeah, and Eve still uses the subscription model. You know, the revenue model many have insisted no MMO would ever be successful with for several years now.
That is not a sign of mediocrity. That's the sign of a successful MMORPG whose developers have done a lot of things right, where many of their competitors have gotten it wrong.
And seriously, read Smedley's remarks on Eve. Seems to me his opinion doesn't reflect your own... But maybe you know more about the development and business of running a MMO than he does. Who knows.
Most of Eve's growth is from palyers owning 5 or 6 accounts because they can pay for it from in game funds. EvE is nowhere near as a popular as people want to suggest it is.
I really can't wait for this game to release and tank. I'm so sick and tired of hearing about it. More importantly i'm pissed about they're basically pissing all over the EQ IP and everything it represented.
I particularly love the "EVE is an excellent example of how this kind of system can thrive! comment by smed.
Lets see ~550k subs, 60% or better of which are multisubs off the same person.
So realistically we're talking about 250-300k actual playerbase, which has taken ~ 10 years to build up to. They call that an excellent example of success?
All EVE is an excellent example of is how small of a playerbase you can expect in an open world pvp game.
How are they pissing on the IP exactly? What could they have done differently that wouldn't of been carbon copy EQ3 that would have had little future, that they aren't doing instead?
I get you are a long time EQ fan and hold it dearly, but everything must evolve and adapt. The genre, tech, and players are moving forward. A company and it's product can't afford to just do the same old thing forever. Change can go bad, sure, but it can go very well and produce amazing things.
What I'm wondering is where you are hearing about it so much that you are tired of it. I've seen very little press to the general gaming public beyond those actively following it. Maybe you should stop following something you dislike so much...
What Smedly has said is being twisted every which way. He doesn't mean they are literally trying to do what EVE is doing, it is just a real world example of what types of things they are going for (player freedom and involvement in the game). Not that they want X number of players exactly like EVE or that they will have the exact same PVP system or anything like that. He is also just the boss, he isn't actually developing the game. Do people think Balmer was writing code all day at MS?
Originally posted by VorthanionThere are a hell of a lot more players who don't like Eve Online than those that do. Copying their format is consigning yourself to mediocrity at best. Then again, they have a bevy of niche games under their corporate umbrella and aren't afraid to put yet another non-genre changing game under it.
Eve has been going for almost a decade now, the game continues to expand and improve.
Eve Online has a larger population right now - with a subscription - than either EQ1 or EQ2 had in a long time - if ever - as sub-based MMOs.
On top of that, Eve's population continues to grow year after year. No other MMO (that I'm aware of) can make that claim almost a decade into its service.
Oh yeah, and Eve still uses the subscription model. You know, the revenue model many have insisted no MMO would ever be successful with for several years now.
That is not a sign of mediocrity. That's the sign of a successful MMORPG whose developers have done a lot of things right, where many of their competitors have gotten it wrong.
And seriously, read Smedley's remarks on Eve. Seems to me his opinion doesn't reflect your own... But maybe you know more about the development and business of running a MMO than he does. Who knows.
Most of Eve's growth is from palyers owning 5 or 6 accounts because they can pay for it from in game funds. EvE is nowhere near as a popular as people want to suggest it is.
But you miss the point.. if some buy extra accounts from ingame funds or not.. somebody have to buy those subscriptions.. so yes, EvE do have more subscribers as EQ ever, and more importantly over a longer timespan.
And don't forget.. EvE and CCP started as a Indy project with 21 employees, now they are at over 600 employees, that alone cries success, whereas Verant was very early on take over from SOE and got in the very beginning a lot of funds and advertisement.
And about SOE screwing their IP and going EvE route.. well, they don't, even if some would like a EvE style game in a fantasy setting like EQ.. but it does not look like it.
One of the recent round table responses makes me think they're not going with OWPVP.. at least for Landmark. I know it's a different game from EQN proper, but their logic has mean doubting this will work out. =(
I'm sure it will still be a good game with different rulesets.. had a great time with DCUO... a great game but not the ultimate game.
There's still hope, and hopefully someone comes along with the solution soon.
I really can't wait for this game to release and tank. I'm so sick and tired of hearing about it. More importantly i'm pissed about they're basically pissing all over the EQ IP and everything it represented.
I particularly love the "EVE is an excellent example of how this kind of system can thrive! comment by smed.
Lets see ~550k subs, 60% or better of which are multisubs off the same person.
So realistically we're talking about 250-300k actual playerbase, which has taken ~ 10 years to build up to. They call that an excellent example of success?
All EVE is an excellent example of is how small of a playerbase you can expect in an open world pvp game.
How are they pissing on the IP exactly? What could they have done differently that wouldn't of been carbon copy EQ3 that would have had little future, that they aren't doing instead?
Let's see... Disney art style which in no way "evolves" or "adapts" the IP's art style. Twitch based non targetted action style combat. Stupid anime style double jumping and leaping across vast distances. Should i keep going?
I get you are a long time EQ fan and hold it dearly, but everything must evolve and adapt. The genre, tech, and players are moving forward. A company and it's product can't afford to just do the same old thing forever. Change can go bad, sure, but it can go very well and produce amazing things.
This is an example of change for the sake of change, and thusly, is bad.
What I'm wondering is where you are hearing about it so much that you are tired of it. I've seen very little press to the general gaming public beyond those actively following it. Maybe you should stop following something you dislike so much...
Are you serious? Every week i see 1 or 2 new articles about this or that for EQN or EQN Landmark. Not to mention threads popping up constantly in the forums. Yes the past couple weeks have been dominated by TESO, but thats a temporary.
What Smedly has said is being twisted every which way. He doesn't mean they are literally trying to do what EVE is doing, it is just a real world example of what types of things they are going for (player freedom and involvement in the game). Not that they want X number of players exactly like EVE or that they will have the exact same PVP system or anything like that. He is also just the boss, he isn't actually developing the game. Do people think Balmer was writing code all day at MS?
Thats not at all what i said. Yes, other people are twisting it. All *I* did was mention that its not exactly a great example of a succesful MMO. Thats like pointing at the old toyota MR2 and saying it was an example of how a mid engine car thats reasonably priced can be successful, when the car only sold a few thousand units, vs say ford sellling 650k F150's, etc.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Yeah they have been pretty clear that they don't want to force players into social interactions against their will many times.
Those people shouldn't be playing MMO's.
Raph Koster said it best about original SWG; everyone was interdependent. If you were a combat guy, you had to go to the cantina to heal your fatigue (listening to entertainers), player entertainers gained skill and tips from healing these players, crafters sold to the combat players and the entertainers, combat players supplied the crafters with materials.
We have run so far away from that living breathing world idea of an online game toward this degenerate "I'll do it all myself! Even the combat! I don't want to need a healer and tank friend to go get muh kill on! I want to be tanky DPS with self-heals!"
I just saw that crap on the wildstar boards. "Which class has best self-heals?". Makes me want to vomit.
Uh in combat SWG was one of the most soloable games in existence during it's time Pre-cu. They actually fixed a lot of that later on in 05-06, but prior to that the crafting 80+% comp, the dot weapons, not to mention the outrageous buffs negated 90.5% of the late game content. It also trivialized PVP, it was a cake walk once you were geared and buffed. However SWG was all about versatile do it yourself builds.
I could unleash hell as a fencer, doc, pistoleer, I could heal or avoid just about anything that came at me. 90% dizzy defense plus a +10dizzy defense ST ( never dizzy) 100% KD defense (never KD'd) 100% defense against posture change. With doc I could heal fire at high potency, as well as poisons and diseases, with fencer area attacks with dots. I wish I could still play builds that OP in games lol. Spreading fire dots, mind poisons, dizzys and posture changes, and never being kd'd or dizzied I also kept a stun helmet in my tool bar for that pesky Jawa ion rifle toting rifleman/tk/cm build..
Lets also not forget that with an extra account or two you could circumvent just about every social benefit function as well. Guild life negated a lot of the overall social functions of the game, heal/buff bots etc..
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Who listens to anything Smedley says No offense to the guy but he's been talking out of his ass for over a decade (maybe longer but that's all I've personally witnessed).
If they did PvP like SWG where you had to flag up and only certain areas were contested, that would work. I never EVER, not once had to PvP in SWG and I never EVER got ganked by jerks because I could CHOOSE whether or not I wanted to fight other players. If they do PvP just like that, they'll be fine. You can still have open world PvP, and people "going down the Jedi tree" can still be auto flagged... just don't FORCE PvP on other non PvP players and it will all be FINE.
If they do PvP like Eve Online... where I can still enjoy my game, mine astroids to my hearts content and be protected by Concord, fully able to buy and sell across the galaxy with no worries about being ganked unless I fly through zero sec space.... again, that wouldn't bother me. Just let me enjoy the aspects of the game and avoid the areas where all the high testosterone uber, leet killers hang out to prey on the weak.
If they do open world PvP in Everquest Next with no limitations then the only thing I can say is they've completely shifted their target market and they're now focusing on the League of Legends, FPS console players and completely turning their collective back on their 15 year old fanbase. Any company that does that would be cutting off their nose to spite their face. If they want a piece of the PvP pie, they should create a new game for that market, not piss all over their long time fans.
Just to clarify my earlier message - if the Landmark stuff is any indication, it does seem there will be multiple rulesets in EQN proper that don't involve PVP. BUT I am still expecting servers with the OWPVP ruleset and pray to god people can't just drop in from "safe" servers with resources because that will destroy the balance of wars and stuff.
Then again the devs said there would only be fast travel along main points you discover and from there on you need to travel the rest of the way yourself. Which should make it harder for resources to pour in from safe servers.
Just to clarify my earlier message - if the Landmark stuff is any indication, it does seem there will be multiple rulesets in EQN proper that don't involve PVP. BUT I am still expecting servers with the OWPVP ruleset and pray to god people can't just drop in from "safe" servers with resources because that will destroy the balance of wars and stuff.
Then again the devs said there would only be fast travel along main points you discover and from there on you need to travel the rest of the way yourself. Which should make it harder for resources to pour in from safe servers.
Are you expecting EQN server jumping to be the same as Landmark? If so, I haven't seen anything that would suggest such. You pick a server and play on it as any other mmo. They'll probably sell server transfers in the cash shop (cha ching) but I'd also assume you wouldn't be able to haul a million resources to a new one as that would upset the economy/world.
"Fast" travel the way they have talked about it is within a server/world. Not between them. Nothing like the system Landmark has where you can hop from one server/island/continent fairly easily.
I m a big fan of EvE and i think the day a same game with a medieval world instead of space will released, it will be the end of todays mmo's. But when, and by whom is another story I have faith to SOE tbh though...
I really can't wait for this game to release and tank. I'm so sick and tired of hearing about it. More importantly i'm pissed about they're basically pissing all over the EQ IP and everything it represented.
I particularly love the "EVE is an excellent example of how this kind of system can thrive! comment by smed.
Lets see ~550k subs, 60% or better of which are multisubs off the same person.
So realistically we're talking about 250-300k actual playerbase, which has taken ~ 10 years to build up to. They call that an excellent example of success?
All EVE is an excellent example of is how small of a playerbase you can expect in an open world pvp game.
How are they pissing on the IP exactly? What could they have done differently that wouldn't of been carbon copy EQ3 that would have had little future, that they aren't doing instead?
Let's see... Disney art style which in no way "evolves" or "adapts" the IP's art style. Twitch based non targetted action style combat. Stupid anime style double jumping and leaping across vast distances. Should i keep going?
Obviously all those things are personal preference, and I get your issues, but I can't agree.
As the same people have been heading up the art department, the style does look fairly "evolutionary" to me. Side by side, I see the connection. Compared to other games coming out, the style is much more vivid and a live. The grappling hook video is a great example. You can compare it to Disney and Pixar because it looks "real" not run of the mill mmo animations. EQ/EQOA are both fairly "cartoony" and EQ2 looked like crap to me. People were using Bless/Black Desert as examples of what EQN should look like, now seeing actual real gameplay, they look exactly like every other asian mmo on the market and bring nothing fresh. EQN is at least unique looking. But comparing it to WoW (people love to compare the two) and EQ, I see a heck of a lot more EQ then WoW.
Twich/Action combat is the future. Enjoy it or get out of the way. I think FPS/MOBA's have played a large part in this, but players seem to want to move around and actually play the game and not stand still spamming 50 buttons. If you can't handle it or just don't like it, I'm sorry. This is where the genre is going from indie to AAA.
We've seen very little of the game so far, but I really like the leaping/gliding and other over the top stuff. If the world is large enough and combat is crazy enough, it will make for a exciting experience. Not a huge fan of the double/side jumping, but it isn't that bad and no idea how it will work for different races/classes.
Again this is just opinion, but to me tab targeting and not being able to leap are not what I think of when EQ is mentioned. IP to me is the lore (whatever version), races/classes, world, etc. It's Norrath, not how I select a mob.
I get you are a long time EQ fan and hold it dearly, but everything must evolve and adapt. The genre, tech, and players are moving forward. A company and it's product can't afford to just do the same old thing forever. Change can go bad, sure, but it can go very well and produce amazing things.
This is an example of change for the sake of change, and thusly, is bad.
What's the alternative? Do the same thing over and over which has obviously not paid off in the long run. Sure they are still going 15 years later, but are insignificant in today's market. EQ3 would not change that. If EQ/EQ2 were the be all end all of gaming, people would flock to them naturally. People want something more, something new. We'll see how ESO/WS end up a year in or so, I bet right along with every other mmo that has come out in the last 5-10 years, treading water, because they fail to change the formula.
What I'm wondering is where you are hearing about it so much that you are tired of it. I've seen very little press to the general gaming public beyond those actively following it. Maybe you should stop following something you dislike so much...
Are you serious? Every week i see 1 or 2 new articles about this or that for EQN or EQN Landmark. Not to mention threads popping up constantly in the forums. Yes the past couple weeks have been dominated by TESO, but thats a temporary.
Guess 1-2 articles a week don't seem very excessive to me. Especially with Alpha ending and Closed Beta starting and EQ celebrating 15 years online. Other such things. It is also at the top of the list, guess some people care and want articles. I only read what interests me, I could care less about the majority of the articles I see, I don't get upset that they exist. I stick to the EQN/LM forums mostly, so can't speak on that, not sure what people are talking about in general though.
What Smedly has said is being twisted every which way. He doesn't mean they are literally trying to do what EVE is doing, it is just a real world example of what types of things they are going for (player freedom and involvement in the game). Not that they want X number of players exactly like EVE or that they will have the exact same PVP system or anything like that. He is also just the boss, he isn't actually developing the game. Do people think Balmer was writing code all day at MS?
Thats not at all what i said. Yes, other people are twisting it. All *I* did was mention that its not exactly a great example of a succesful MMO. Thats like pointing at the old toyota MR2 and saying it was an example of how a mid engine car thats reasonably priced can be successful, when the car only sold a few thousand units, vs say ford sellling 650k F150's, etc.
Up for interpretation obviously, but that isn't what I'm reading.
If you read that comment in context, doesn't seem to have anything to do with numbers or "success" of the game. He is talking about within the game and what is possible. The paragraph leading into this one has examples from other games and then he goes on to say EVE is a good example of the creativity and freedom that he is talking about.
"There’s a great example of this today with Eve Online. It’s a brilliantly executed system where the players are pretty much in charge of the entire game. Sure there is a lot of content for players to do, but anything that’s important in the game is done by the players. This is a shining example of how this kind of system can thrive." -Smedly
Again, you obviously like what you like (EQ) and that's great. It doesn't seem to be going anywhere. Expecting a company to not try new things to please the customer and make a profit is silly. If you don't like EQN, you don't. Just like I don't like ESO and the vast majority of other games that people play. IP is part of it, game play is another. If you can't see the EQ IP in EQN and don't like the gameplay, guess you'll be passing on what is looking like a fantastic experience.
Just to clarify my earlier message - if the Landmark stuff is any indication, it does seem there will be multiple rulesets in EQN proper that don't involve PVP. BUT I am still expecting servers with the OWPVP ruleset and pray to god people can't just drop in from "safe" servers with resources because that will destroy the balance of wars and stuff.
Then again the devs said there would only be fast travel along main points you discover and from there on you need to travel the rest of the way yourself. Which should make it harder for resources to pour in from safe servers.
Why would they allow you to carry resources from server to server at all? From continent to continent on the same server, sure, but from server to server? Especially considering the different rule sets.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
If you think there will only be FFA open world PvP servers in EQ Next (like in EVE), you will be sorely mistaken.
There will be several rulesets and yes, there will probably be open world PvP servers too.
The difference is, only those who like PvP will play on those servers. No easy prey for you
Why do PvE'rs think we want "easy prey"? That's the last thing we want. I want politics, guild vs. guild PvP in a world where the rules are made by the victor. I want bragging rights in defeating the chinese zergs and kicking some major ass. All those "easy prey" are merely on my way, and its annoying to cut down weed when you're foresting.
If you think there will only be FFA open world PvP servers in EQ Next (like in EVE), you will be sorely mistaken.
There will be several rulesets and yes, there will probably be open world PvP servers too.
The difference is, only those who like PvP will play on those servers. No easy prey for you
Why do PvE'rs think we want "easy prey"? That's the last thing we want. I want politics, guild vs. guild PvP in a world where the rules are made by the victor. I want bragging rights in defeating the chinese zergs and kicking some major ass. All those "easy prey" are merely on my way, and its annoying to cut down weed when you're foresting.
Because the most common experience they will observe from the deep political intrigue and warfare will be a character named "Ipwnduz" randomly killing them while they try to harvest or otherwise mind their own business. I like big open warfare, but people leaving the game in droves because PvP is forced won't help populate big battles.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
Why do PvE'rs think we want "easy prey"? That's the last thing we want. I want politics, guild vs. guild PvP in a world where the rules are made by the victor. I want bragging rights in defeating the chinese zergs and kicking some major ass. All those "easy prey" are merely on my way, and its annoying to cut down weed when you're foresting.
So then you are happy if the "easy prey" plays on their own PVE servers then, and if not please present a workable approach to force people to PVP, if you can figure out how to force people to PVP and pay for it you will make serious $.
If you think there will only be FFA open world PvP servers in EQ Next (like in EVE), you will be sorely mistaken.
There will be several rulesets and yes, there will probably be open world PvP servers too.
The difference is, only those who like PvP will play on those servers. No easy prey for you
Why do PvE'rs think we want "easy prey"? That's the last thing we want. I want politics, guild vs. guild PvP in a world where the rules are made by the victor. I want bragging rights in defeating the chinese zergs and kicking some major ass. All those "easy prey" are merely on my way, and its annoying to cut down weed when you're foresting.
Ummm because you do want easy prey, take away the easy prey and you'll ruffle PvPer's feathers. Seriously, take a look at any PvP centric game and you'll immediately see PvPers intentionally look for easy prey to fuel their epeen. Already you have it in landmark with people trying to lure and trap people.
Sure you have good sportsmanship at times but that's a rarity it seems like. Then again maybe the majority are decent folks who don't do griefing and its the minority that do, but I'm dubious on that.
Yeah they have been pretty clear that they don't want to force players into social interactions against their will many times.
Those people shouldn't be playing MMO's.
Raph Koster said it best about original SWG; everyone was interdependent. If you were a combat guy, you had to go to the cantina to heal your fatigue (listening to entertainers), player entertainers gained skill and tips from healing these players, crafters sold to the combat players and the entertainers, combat players supplied the crafters with materials.
We have run so far away from that living breathing world idea of an online game toward this degenerate "I'll do it all myself! Even the combat! I don't want to need a healer and tank friend to go get muh kill on! I want to be tanky DPS with self-heals!"
I just saw that crap on the wildstar boards. "Which class has best self-heals?". Makes me want to vomit.
And at the end of the day, what it all boils down to is the "community" having too much of a say. Ohh god my fears, interacting with other people, I play video games so I don't have to do that! Don't take me out of my comfort zone! Ohh god! I might actually have to find a good healer or tank or DPS to do this content, you're forcing me to play with other people in a ..... multiplayer game!
This is why the only game I'm actively subscribed to at the moment is EVE. Clearly defined roles. I can say "I know that guy is a good x, that guy is a great x, that guy is the best at x".
Most of these MMO's coming out today do absolutely nothing to forge friendships, community, and team spirit, like the older games did, and THOSE systems in a game are more important than any stupid colorful dress or flaming helmet.
This has been on my mind for the longest time. I can't stay very long with any type of mmo because of what you just described. For the last eight years of gaming, I am alone in everything I do. Is Eve the only gave that "forces" to interact with others and depend on them for success? I honestly feel like mmo's aren't made for people like me.
I haven't read through this entire thread but I have played a number of SOE game, including three years playing SWG. Now if, as it seems indicated EQNext *is* going to take certain core dynamics of open world PVP then I really think non-PVPers have very little to fear. PVP conventions in SWG were one of the few things that no player demographic complained about very simply because it was an opt-in system. If you didn't want to fight, then you could go about your RP/Crafting/PVE business and were not molested by PVPers unless you did something very obvious (eg. kill an NPC of the opposing faction) and for which you would receive a system warning before you could carry it out. If you did, by accident, become 'overt' (eligible for PVP) then the system to opt out again was very simple (no combat for five minutes)
As an RPer, I went through two years before I got into any PVP combat whatsoever. It so happened, that I then joined a PVP guild and made the switch easily to Open World PVP - personally, I found the suspense and excitement of stalking and being stalked, base sieges and defences to be excellent.
If SOE doesn't screw up this basic system, I can't see even the softest carebear having any complaints bout living and playing in an otherwise PVE Open World.
My thoughts for quite some time on this issue have been this. If you want open world PvP but don't want the griefing, and if you want it in a "sandboxy" feel to the world, then you want to have an opt-in through fighting "orders".
-Militia within guilds (so a guild can have both non-PvP and PvP members)
-Thief and assassin guilds, orders or cults
-Combat orders (knights, etc.)
If the game sets those up as the means to opt into PvP, then it works inside the same world as the rest of the player base who don't want to PvP. It allows them to act supply side to their own guild and friends, and possibly to benefit from PvP conquests. It makes the player's world more "one".
Of course, nothing is perfect. This would have issues too, but overall seems like the way to go, in my opinion, for an open world PvP without all the grief issues.
Comments
Eve has been going for almost a decade now, the game continues to expand and improve.
Eve Online has a larger population right now - with a subscription - than either EQ1 or EQ2 had in a long time - if ever - as sub-based MMOs.
On top of that, Eve's population continues to grow year after year. No other MMO (that I'm aware of) can make that claim almost a decade into its service.
Oh yeah, and Eve still uses the subscription model. You know, the revenue model many have insisted no MMO would ever be successful with for several years now.
That is not a sign of mediocrity. That's the sign of a successful MMORPG whose developers have done a lot of things right, where many of their competitors have gotten it wrong.
And seriously, read Smedley's remarks on Eve. Seems to me his opinion doesn't reflect your own... But maybe you know more about the development and business of running a MMO than he does. Who knows.
No...it hasn't. It's still doing good, but give us all a break from the marketing ploy.
"There are a hell of a lot more players who don't like Eve Online than those that do. "
Not an opinion...truth
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
He'll get it up there for good... one of these times.
SOE isn't stupid, they'll have pve and pvp servers...don't qq to much...get some care for that bear lol
Incognito
www.incognito-gaming.us
"You're either with us or against us"
Sadly, I have a feeling this would be the case as well.
Smedley knows the talk. He knows the right things to say to get people interested. He's seldom sincere about any of it. He'd promise the moon if he thought it would get more money in his/SOE's pockets.
Once upon a time, he said that none of their existing MMOs would ever move to a Cash Shop/F2P type system, because those games weren't built around such a thing, however future games would likely embrace that approach. Months later, they announce EQ2 going F2P with a cash shop.
When Smedley talks, just assume he's spinning some good PR to get people interested, believe none of it, and you'll be better off.
Eve Online has a larger population right now - with a subscription - than either EQ1 or EQ2 had in a long time - if ever - as sub-based MMOs.
On top of that, Eve's population continues to grow year after year. No other MMO (that I'm aware of) can make that claim almost a decade into its service.
Oh yeah, and Eve still uses the subscription model. You know, the revenue model many have insisted no MMO would ever be successful with for several years now.
That is not a sign of mediocrity. That's the sign of a successful MMORPG whose developers have done a lot of things right, where many of their competitors have gotten it wrong.
And seriously, read Smedley's remarks on Eve. Seems to me his opinion doesn't reflect your own... But maybe you know more about the development and business of running a MMO than he does. Who knows.
Most of Eve's growth is from palyers owning 5 or 6 accounts because they can pay for it from in game funds. EvE is nowhere near as a popular as people want to suggest it is.
How are they pissing on the IP exactly? What could they have done differently that wouldn't of been carbon copy EQ3 that would have had little future, that they aren't doing instead?
I get you are a long time EQ fan and hold it dearly, but everything must evolve and adapt. The genre, tech, and players are moving forward. A company and it's product can't afford to just do the same old thing forever. Change can go bad, sure, but it can go very well and produce amazing things.
What I'm wondering is where you are hearing about it so much that you are tired of it. I've seen very little press to the general gaming public beyond those actively following it. Maybe you should stop following something you dislike so much...
What Smedly has said is being twisted every which way. He doesn't mean they are literally trying to do what EVE is doing, it is just a real world example of what types of things they are going for (player freedom and involvement in the game). Not that they want X number of players exactly like EVE or that they will have the exact same PVP system or anything like that. He is also just the boss, he isn't actually developing the game. Do people think Balmer was writing code all day at MS?
But you miss the point.. if some buy extra accounts from ingame funds or not.. somebody have to buy those subscriptions.. so yes, EvE do have more subscribers as EQ ever, and more importantly over a longer timespan.
And don't forget.. EvE and CCP started as a Indy project with 21 employees, now they are at over 600 employees, that alone cries success, whereas Verant was very early on take over from SOE and got in the very beginning a lot of funds and advertisement.
And about SOE screwing their IP and going EvE route.. well, they don't, even if some would like a EvE style game in a fantasy setting like EQ.. but it does not look like it.
One of the recent round table responses makes me think they're not going with OWPVP.. at least for Landmark. I know it's a different game from EQN proper, but their logic has mean doubting this will work out. =(
I'm sure it will still be a good game with different rulesets.. had a great time with DCUO... a great game but not the ultimate game.
There's still hope, and hopefully someone comes along with the solution soon.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Uh in combat SWG was one of the most soloable games in existence during it's time Pre-cu. They actually fixed a lot of that later on in 05-06, but prior to that the crafting 80+% comp, the dot weapons, not to mention the outrageous buffs negated 90.5% of the late game content. It also trivialized PVP, it was a cake walk once you were geared and buffed. However SWG was all about versatile do it yourself builds.
I could unleash hell as a fencer, doc, pistoleer, I could heal or avoid just about anything that came at me. 90% dizzy defense plus a +10dizzy defense ST ( never dizzy) 100% KD defense (never KD'd) 100% defense against posture change. With doc I could heal fire at high potency, as well as poisons and diseases, with fencer area attacks with dots. I wish I could still play builds that OP in games lol. Spreading fire dots, mind poisons, dizzys and posture changes, and never being kd'd or dizzied I also kept a stun helmet in my tool bar for that pesky Jawa ion rifle toting rifleman/tk/cm build..
Lets also not forget that with an extra account or two you could circumvent just about every social benefit function as well. Guild life negated a lot of the overall social functions of the game, heal/buff bots etc..
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Oh... LOL.
Who listens to anything Smedley says
No offense to the guy but he's been talking out of his ass for over a decade (maybe longer but that's all I've personally witnessed).
If they did PvP like SWG where you had to flag up and only certain areas were contested, that would work. I never EVER, not once had to PvP in SWG and I never EVER got ganked by jerks because I could CHOOSE whether or not I wanted to fight other players. If they do PvP just like that, they'll be fine. You can still have open world PvP, and people "going down the Jedi tree" can still be auto flagged... just don't FORCE PvP on other non PvP players and it will all be FINE.
If they do PvP like Eve Online... where I can still enjoy my game, mine astroids to my hearts content and be protected by Concord, fully able to buy and sell across the galaxy with no worries about being ganked unless I fly through zero sec space.... again, that wouldn't bother me. Just let me enjoy the aspects of the game and avoid the areas where all the high testosterone uber, leet killers hang out to prey on the weak.
If they do open world PvP in Everquest Next with no limitations then the only thing I can say is they've completely shifted their target market and they're now focusing on the League of Legends, FPS console players and completely turning their collective back on their 15 year old fanbase. Any company that does that would be cutting off their nose to spite their face. If they want a piece of the PvP pie, they should create a new game for that market, not piss all over their long time fans.
That is all.
No bitchers.
Just to clarify my earlier message - if the Landmark stuff is any indication, it does seem there will be multiple rulesets in EQN proper that don't involve PVP. BUT I am still expecting servers with the OWPVP ruleset and pray to god people can't just drop in from "safe" servers with resources because that will destroy the balance of wars and stuff.
Then again the devs said there would only be fast travel along main points you discover and from there on you need to travel the rest of the way yourself. Which should make it harder for resources to pour in from safe servers.
Are you expecting EQN server jumping to be the same as Landmark? If so, I haven't seen anything that would suggest such. You pick a server and play on it as any other mmo. They'll probably sell server transfers in the cash shop (cha ching) but I'd also assume you wouldn't be able to haul a million resources to a new one as that would upset the economy/world.
"Fast" travel the way they have talked about it is within a server/world. Not between them. Nothing like the system Landmark has where you can hop from one server/island/continent fairly easily.
I m a big fan of EvE and i think the day a same game with a medieval world instead of space will released, it will be the end of todays mmo's. But when, and by whom is another story
I have faith to SOE tbh though...
Again, you obviously like what you like (EQ) and that's great. It doesn't seem to be going anywhere. Expecting a company to not try new things to please the customer and make a profit is silly. If you don't like EQN, you don't. Just like I don't like ESO and the vast majority of other games that people play. IP is part of it, game play is another. If you can't see the EQ IP in EQN and don't like the gameplay, guess you'll be passing on what is looking like a fantastic experience.
Why would they allow you to carry resources from server to server at all? From continent to continent on the same server, sure, but from server to server? Especially considering the different rule sets.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Why do PvE'rs think we want "easy prey"? That's the last thing we want. I want politics, guild vs. guild PvP in a world where the rules are made by the victor. I want bragging rights in defeating the chinese zergs and kicking some major ass. All those "easy prey" are merely on my way, and its annoying to cut down weed when you're foresting.
Because the most common experience they will observe from the deep political intrigue and warfare will be a character named "Ipwnduz" randomly killing them while they try to harvest or otherwise mind their own business. I like big open warfare, but people leaving the game in droves because PvP is forced won't help populate big battles.
So then you are happy if the "easy prey" plays on their own PVE servers then, and if not please present a workable approach to force people to PVP, if you can figure out how to force people to PVP and pay for it you will make serious $.
Chi puo dir com'egli arde é in picciol fuoco.
He who can describe the flame does not burn.
Petrarch
Ummm because you do want easy prey, take away the easy prey and you'll ruffle PvPer's feathers. Seriously, take a look at any PvP centric game and you'll immediately see PvPers intentionally look for easy prey to fuel their epeen. Already you have it in landmark with people trying to lure and trap people.
Sure you have good sportsmanship at times but that's a rarity it seems like. Then again maybe the majority are decent folks who don't do griefing and its the minority that do, but I'm dubious on that.
This has been on my mind for the longest time. I can't stay very long with any type of mmo because of what you just described. For the last eight years of gaming, I am alone in everything I do. Is Eve the only gave that "forces" to interact with others and depend on them for success? I honestly feel like mmo's aren't made for people like me.
you do know SOE is making a few more "sandboxy" games
EQ:Next is one
H1z1 is the other
H1Z1 is going to be more of a PVP oriented game ... maybe thats what he is talking about when it comes to PVP.
I haven't read through this entire thread but I have played a number of SOE game, including three years playing SWG. Now if, as it seems indicated EQNext *is* going to take certain core dynamics of open world PVP then I really think non-PVPers have very little to fear. PVP conventions in SWG were one of the few things that no player demographic complained about very simply because it was an opt-in system. If you didn't want to fight, then you could go about your RP/Crafting/PVE business and were not molested by PVPers unless you did something very obvious (eg. kill an NPC of the opposing faction) and for which you would receive a system warning before you could carry it out. If you did, by accident, become 'overt' (eligible for PVP) then the system to opt out again was very simple (no combat for five minutes)
As an RPer, I went through two years before I got into any PVP combat whatsoever. It so happened, that I then joined a PVP guild and made the switch easily to Open World PVP - personally, I found the suspense and excitement of stalking and being stalked, base sieges and defences to be excellent.
If SOE doesn't screw up this basic system, I can't see even the softest carebear having any complaints bout living and playing in an otherwise PVE Open World.
My thoughts for quite some time on this issue have been this. If you want open world PvP but don't want the griefing, and if you want it in a "sandboxy" feel to the world, then you want to have an opt-in through fighting "orders".
-Militia within guilds (so a guild can have both non-PvP and PvP members)
-Thief and assassin guilds, orders or cults
-Combat orders (knights, etc.)
If the game sets those up as the means to opt into PvP, then it works inside the same world as the rest of the player base who don't want to PvP. It allows them to act supply side to their own guild and friends, and possibly to benefit from PvP conquests. It makes the player's world more "one".
Of course, nothing is perfect. This would have issues too, but overall seems like the way to go, in my opinion, for an open world PvP without all the grief issues.
Once upon a time....