ESO is trying to draw in two groups of people mmo fans TES fans.
Since it takes 5-10 hours to get to level 10 and you can only show 15 minutes of footage and reveiw up to level 15 therefore most reviewers are concentrating on the 1-10 experience which is very mediocre so...
TES fans say: this isn't as good as Skyrim and I don't have to pay $15 a month to play Skyrim.
MMO fans say: this isn't that much better than gw2 and I don't have to pay $15 a month for gw2.
People aren't fixating on the $15 because they're broke, they fixating on it because there are alternatives that are just as good that don't charge it. This could turn around depending on how much the game picks up at level 10 and how well Zenimax does at showing off the games features that are worth paying $15 a month rather than the ones that aren't.
This sums up much of the negative feedback from many people around here, imo.
I'd also like to add. For the TES players, in addition to not having to pay a monthly sub they also have the ability to drastically change the game via the mod community. If there is something a fan doesn't like in ESO, it can't be changed via modding (obviously). So why pay for a game that doesn't deliver as open as an experience as the single player TES games?
The mmo community by and large has a wide array of alternatives available to them. You'll have some who scoff at the sub fee, because they don't want to pay a second sub to access a game that they won't play as much as their main. People will also compare the amount of things to do in ESO (launch) vs. any other mmo that's been out for years. Yes, it's not comparing apples to apples, but the comparisons will still be there. So why pay $15 per month for a game that supposedly doesn't have as much content available?
Additionally, I feel that a large number of people within the community were surprised when they saw that both ESO and Wildstar were going with the sub model. GW2 is a game that is doing well as a B2P title and I feel as though many people figured more companies would follow suit.
Zenimax needs to allow the press to show more than just the first 15 levels and only 15 minutes of recorded footage. Especially since so many are stating that the game opens up at 10 when more systems (including) PvP open up.
ESO could be a game that winds up growing once it launches and the general community starts showing footage of higher level content. However, it could also wind up having it's potential growth stunted due to the general reactions across the internet right now.
I think you underestimate the amount of people willing to deal with a few compromises in order to play an ES title online with their friends and others. The multiplayer aspect isn't some trivial little gimmick. It's a total game changer and puts them in completely different categories, imo.
If people want a moddable world with more freedom, they can play Skrim. If they want a multiplayer experience with as close to a resemblance to the single player ES titles as there will probably ever be, they'll play ESO. Seems pretty cut and dry to me, the value of each.
It's not an underestimation, but more of a different viewpoint as to why the game has caught so much flak recently. There are plenty of people who want to play online in the ES world. What reeree and myself are referring to is the potential mindset of those who are on the fence about the game, and/or who are making negative commentary about the game.
What remains to be seen is what audience the game ultimately attracts more of. Pure TES fans or MMO fans, yes there is cross-over between the two (more so from the PC gaming core I'm sure), but there is a potential that the game will retain one audience over the other. If the MMO fans stay and enjoy the game, ESO might flourish with the sub model. If it turns out to be more tradition TES fans, we might see the game shift to B2P with more cash shop options.
I have played MMOs as long as you. I agree wit ha lot you have said.
However as you know there are different styles of play.
To add to your comments id say to those interested in the issues that some people like the challenge of levelling as quickly as possible and jumping in to "end game" content.
Where games fail they at least get to enjoy the game at its busiest time, and doing some "end game" content before the servers empties.
They can go back and enjoy the scenery on alts and when there are fewer players around.
It is not easy to build guilds at the best of times but guild leaders are often under pressure to hit "end game" relatively quickly so their guild can be seen to be performing at what is rightly or wrongly seen as a high level in the game.
A thriving MMORPG is ultimately what most people want because that allows styles room to play.
^^^^
MMORPG players are not going to stay if there isnt enough MMORPG going on.
I think a lot of Skyrim sales went to people who probably didnt end up playing the game very much simply because it was a well publisised release. A large % of the MMORPG players that picked it up won't have been satisfied with Skyrim as a substitute for MMORPG and so ESO wont hold them.
I am more sympathetic the other way round but only through ignorance.
It is one thing getting a game as a present or a one off purchase and another being prepared to pay a sub for it. No reason why people wouldnt come and go from ESO on subs if the game grows. If it doesnt then MMORPG players wont resub and I dont see many returning when it goes F2P.
F2P would appeal to new players or arguably Skyrim players that bought ESO initally but were not happy about paying a sub.
When it coesm down to it, it is al labout risk and reward.
Where is the risk in what is being done with ESO now ? if you design to be F2P you almost start with a product at the mature stage of its lifecycle. It is positioned to meet a different niches needs and it is never going to go up the food chain to a sub situation which rightly or wrongly is perceived as a higher quality product.
ESO can easily move from Box + Sub to F2P in consumers minds without loosing its high quality perception to the F2P niche. SWTOR LOTRO (AoC) etc have done this and it is a well trodden path. It does nothing for the high end of the genre.
I have played MMOs as long as you. I agree wit ha lot you have said.
However as you know there are different styles of play.
To add to your comments id say to those interested in the issues that some people like the challenge of levelling as quickly as possible and jumping in to "end game" content.
Where games fail they at least get to enjoy the game at its busiest time, and doing some "end game" content before the servers empties.
They can go back and enjoy the scenery on alts and when there are fewer players around.
It is not easy to build guilds at the best of times but guild leaders are often under pressure to hit "end game" relatively quickly so their guild can be seen to be performing at what is rightly or wrongly seen as a high level in the game.
A thriving MMORPG is ultimately what most people want because that allows styles room to play.
But there is no worry of your server becoming empty, that can't actually happen in this game providing the game has a total active population at or above what other games have on a single busy server (around 8k), and lets be honest even if the game was the worst mmo in the world it would definately have more than 8-10k players
I have played MMOs as long as you. I agree wit ha lot you have said.
However as you know there are different styles of play.
To add to your comments id say to those interested in the issues that some people like the challenge of levelling as quickly as possible and jumping in to "end game" content.
Where games fail they at least get to enjoy the game at its busiest time, and doing some "end game" content before the servers empties.
They can go back and enjoy the scenery on alts and when there are fewer players around.
It is not easy to build guilds at the best of times but guild leaders are often under pressure to hit "end game" relatively quickly so their guild can be seen to be performing at what is rightly or wrongly seen as a high level in the game.
A thriving MMORPG is ultimately what most people want because that allows styles room to play.
But there is no worry of your server becoming empty, that can't actually happen in this game providing the game has a total active population at or above what other games have on a single busy server (around 8k), and lets be honest even if the game was the worst mmo in the world it would definitely have more than 8-10k players
Well the whole mega server thing raises other issues. it doesnt solve the main problems that really matter to mmorpg players AFAIK.
How do you create community when the server is potentially so big with people spread over difference instances, phases etc AND you have design almost no community building aspect in the game (No Raids, No chat bubbles, Ropey/laggy Chat function, 4 man dungeons, no names above char heads, being in 5 guilds etc . The answer is . .you dont. It might serve small guilds or groups of friends very well.. until they start to fragment. There is almost nothing in the traditional server set up that stops small groups of players interacting.
There will be no community unless we work round the restrictions and adapt.
A server may as well be empty to an MMORPG player who enjoys community if he hardly ever interacts with other players or sees his acquaintances so infrequently.
The only benefits for community that I see in this megaserver setup are if the game does shrink to such a level that we bump into people all the time because there are so few left.
You want minimal UI .. fine at the expense of what ?
I am not even gonna bother thinking about this game in any sort of truly judgemental fashion until a month after release even if I wind up playing it.
The reviewers are mostly worthless, a few good one. The paid guys are especially bad. They are so bad they should pay me to watch. Sometimes I think being exposed to paid reviewers actually makes you stupider. Nothing to do with TESO reviews per se, that is for all games.
I would like to share my thoughts and experiences with the ESO community. This is a subjective post. I don't have an exact amount, but I think its conceivable to say that I have played MMO's for almost 10,000 hours cumulatively over my 15 years of MMO gaming. If you believe in the rule, than I am a professional.
Pay models, combat systems, and aesthetics of a game are all things you should understand and judge personally. I am ashamed for the professional reviewers of ESO. If they did a review of Salmon it would be "ehh, kinda tases like chicken and I wanted it to be more fishy. It has a lemon with it, who still puts lemon on their salmon? I feel like I have to eat this Salmon first before I try some of the sides, even though they're right in front of me." Awful!
$15 is less than 1% of total monthly income for a median individual. This is a monthly investment to a company that pays returns in updates, balances, and new content. Complaining about a pay model, or even, reviewing a game negatively because of its pay model is absurd. Any consumer can look at the pay model and understand the circumstances, one would hope. However, the ongoing argument consumes people who can't acknowledge the advantages and negatives of each system on an individual basis. Why do we battle for extremes? Why does no one argue pay per hour, pay per day, or pay per week?
End-game is a destructive term to a game, not to be highlighted or quickly attained. The end game of an MMO is a point where you have accomplished everything you set out to, maybe in raids or PvP, regardless you enter into a cycle of lackluster repetition until the next content is released. Why would someone ever seek out end game while ignoring the rest a game has to offer. This is traditionally what MMO's have offered us, initial excitement and adventure, followed by the monotony of end game. Do power gamers still exist, have they wised, or do they remain a victim of causality - rushing through each game's content only to succumb to eventual boredom and a ruined outlook on MMO gaming.
I look at this game (ESO), both externally and internally, and think about the journey, adventure, and exploration into the unseen. I like to be challenged. These are things I seek in both a single player and multi-player game, hell, even a book! The multi-player element adds more complex elements to the game such as friendships with like-minded individuals, the elation of teamwork (especially in success), the action and reaction in PvP, chance encounters. I am realistic to my wants and needs as a gamer, especially in an MMO. This game has what I want.
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end." E.H.
See you in Tamriel
To use your metaphor. People aren't saying they wish the Salmon tasted better. People are saying: "I'm sick of seafood."
EQ invented the 3D Theme Park MMO Salmon. WoW added seasoning and cooked it. All people have done since WoW has added sides. TESO is no exception, just the most recent offender.
I am sick of seafood. So are most reviewers. Someone revolutionize the genre and get me a fracking steak!
To use your metaphor. People aren't saying they wish the Salmon tasted better. People are saying: "I'm sick of seafood."
EQ invented the 3D Theme Park MMO Salmon. WoW added seasoning and cooked it. All people have done since WoW has added sides. TESO is no exception, just the most recent offender.
I am sick of seafood. So are most reviewers. Someone revolutionize the genre and get me a fracking steak!
Good point. I think WoW unintentionally ruined MMOs for a lot of people, it was too good. You're probably included, you want something different because you've done it all before. You try new MMORPGS, but nothing ever really feels close to that initial feeling you had during your first MMORPG experience. The Theme Park style MMORPG is not going to change radically, this is what it is. The only thing that matters is if the world you are in and if those aesthetics and stories are enough to keep you interested.
Lets apply another relationship. Why do popular basketball players release shoe lines? Because Michael Jordan - argued as the greatest basketball player - made incredible money doing it. Now, other popular basketball players follow the model. Do the shoes change? Appearance wise yes, but the principal of the shoe is the same.
What is it exactly that you are looking for in an MMO?
To use your metaphor. People aren't saying they wish the Salmon tasted better. People are saying: "I'm sick of seafood."
EQ invented the 3D Theme Park MMO Salmon. WoW added seasoning and cooked it. All people have done since WoW has added sides. TESO is no exception, just the most recent offender.
I am sick of seafood. So are most reviewers. Someone revolutionize the genre and get me a fracking steak!
Good point. I think WoW unintentionally ruined MMOs for a lot of people, it was too good. You're probably included, you want something different because you've done it all before. You try new MMORPGS, but nothing ever really feels close to that initial feeling you had during your first MMORPG experience. The Theme Park style MMORPG is not going to change radically, this is what it is. The only thing that matters is if the world you are in and if those aesthetics and stories are enough to keep you interested.
Lets apply another relationship. Why do popular basketball players release shoe lines? Because Michael Jordan - argued as the greatest basketball player - made incredible money doing it. Now, other popular basketball players follow the model. Do the shoes change? Appearance wise yes, but the principal of the shoe is the same.
What is it exactly that you are looking for in an MMO?
I can tell you what I'd really go for right about now...a game with Skyrim's features, that encompasses all of Tamriel, has many players, and doesn't look like a console game on PC.
ESO is trying to draw in two groups of people mmo fans TES fans.
Since it takes 5-10 hours to get to level 10 and you can only show 15 minutes of footage and reveiw up to level 15 therefore most reviewers are concentrating on the 1-10 experience which is very mediocre so...
TES fans say: this isn't as good as Skyrim and I don't have to pay $15 a month to play Skyrim.
MMO fans say: this isn't that much better than gw2 and I don't have to pay $15 a month for gw2.
People aren't fixating on the $15 because they're broke, they fixating on it because there are alternatives that are just as good that don't charge it. This could turn around depending on how much the game picks up at level 10 and how well Zenimax does at showing off the games features that are worth paying $15 a month rather than the ones that aren't.
This sums up much of the negative feedback from many people around here, imo.
I'd also like to add. For the TES players, in addition to not having to pay a monthly sub they also have the ability to drastically change the game via the mod community. If there is something a fan doesn't like in ESO, it can't be changed via modding (obviously). So why pay for a game that doesn't deliver as open as an experience as the single player TES games?
The mmo community by and large has a wide array of alternatives available to them. You'll have some who scoff at the sub fee, because they don't want to pay a second sub to access a game that they won't play as much as their main. People will also compare the amount of things to do in ESO (launch) vs. any other mmo that's been out for years. Yes, it's not comparing apples to apples, but the comparisons will still be there. So why pay $15 per month for a game that supposedly doesn't have as much content available?
Additionally, I feel that a large number of people within the community were surprised when they saw that both ESO and Wildstar were going with the sub model. GW2 is a game that is doing well as a B2P title and I feel as though many people figured more companies would follow suit.
Zenimax needs to allow the press to show more than just the first 15 levels and only 15 minutes of recorded footage. Especially since so many are stating that the game opens up at 10 when more systems (including) PvP open up.
ESO could be a game that winds up growing once it launches and the general community starts showing footage of higher level content. However, it could also wind up having it's potential growth stunted due to the general reactions across the internet right now.
I think you underestimate the amount of people willing to deal with a few compromises in order to play an ES title online with their friends and others. The multiplayer aspect isn't some trivial little gimmick. It's a total game changer and puts them in completely different categories, imo.
If people want a moddable world with more freedom, they can play Skrim. If they want a multiplayer experience with as close to a resemblance to the single player ES titles as there will probably ever be, they'll play ESO. Seems pretty cut and dry to me, the value of each.
Well said!
And OP I agree with you.
Personally I am playing this Because its finally a MP game set in the ES lore. I am not expecting the second coming of MMOs, just a good time with my friends in an ES game.
To me thats well worth the $15 a month. To others it might not be.
I find game reviews from "professionals" akin to movie critics. Movie critics rate the worst garbage high and the best movies poorly. I never pay any attention to them. I find it entertaining how many times movie critics rate blockbuster movies poorly.
The same goes for games. Say what you will about Warcraft for example, but that game was huge for a reason. (I used to play, but haven't in a few years) The critics said it would flop and Everquest 2 would be a huge hit. They were ass backwards. It is best just to not pay them any attention.
The only reviews worth any attention are the reviews that come out after a game is launched by the users themselves at sites like meta-critic. More than that, the only way you know if you'll like a game is to try it and I intend to try this game. I'll see if I like it after it launches.
I for one am excited for a game that focuses on the more traditional feel of an RPG with adventuring, lore, epic story arcs, and challenge. Games making leveling faster and faster trivializes what is often the best part of the game and reduces the use of 90% of the MMO landscape. (since there is rarely a reason to return to lower level zones)
While I could write a short essay on this, I'll stop with, "it's about damn time a company had the guts to return to the basics of what made RPGs great to begin with and put it back into an MMO where it belongs with a nice shine from modern day technology."
ESO is trying to draw in two groups of people mmo fans TES fans.
Since it takes 5-10 hours to get to level 10 and you can only show 15 minutes of footage and reveiw up to level 15 therefore most reviewers are concentrating on the 1-10 experience which is very mediocre so...
TES fans say: this isn't as good as Skyrim and I don't have to pay $15 a month to play Skyrim.
MMO fans say: this isn't that much better than gw2 and I don't have to pay $15 a month for gw2.
People aren't fixating on the $15 because they're broke, they fixating on it because there are alternatives that are just as good that don't charge it. This could turn around depending on how much the game picks up at level 10 and how well Zenimax does at showing off the games features that are worth paying $15 a month rather than the ones that aren't.
THANK YOU!
These days there are a lot(video games) in fact and upcoming ones too.
Which is why I have yet to...even after reading the OP, seen a good legit real reason to give 15 dollars out to one video game that.
Once again I believe it may be because I'm a gamer and not [just] an MMORPG player.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
To use your metaphor. People aren't saying they wish the Salmon tasted better. People are saying: "I'm sick of seafood."
EQ invented the 3D Theme Park MMO Salmon. WoW added seasoning and cooked it. All people have done since WoW has added sides. TESO is no exception, just the most recent offender.
I am sick of seafood. So are most reviewers. Someone revolutionize the genre and get me a fracking steak!
Good point. I think WoW unintentionally ruined MMOs for a lot of people, it was too good. You're probably included, you want something different because you've done it all before. You try new MMORPGS, but nothing ever really feels close to that initial feeling you had during your first MMORPG experience. The Theme Park style MMORPG is not going to change radically, this is what it is. The only thing that matters is if the world you are in and if those aesthetics and stories are enough to keep you interested.
Lets apply another relationship. Why do popular basketball players release shoe lines? Because Michael Jordan - argued as the greatest basketball player - made incredible money doing it. Now, other popular basketball players follow the model. Do the shoes change? Appearance wise yes, but the principal of the shoe is the same.
What is it exactly that you are looking for in an MMO?
I can only tell you what I'm *not* looking for in an MMO.
First, I'm not looking for an MMO that has me running around like an errand boy, doing pointless quests that don't impact the world and are just clearly timesinks/busy work. And I don't mean the GW2 approach of trading !s over NPCs heads for Hearts on a minimap where you do the same pointless things quest givers would tell you to do. This is the WoW Model. It's too antiquated. It's time for something better.
Second, I'm not looking for an MMO that couldn't care less if you were logged in or not. In WoW, if you don't show up at raid night, someone goes on Raid Browser and finds a replacement for you. Easy. If you're a funny guy, folks might miss you on Vent. If you're a raid leader, folks might have to retrain a new one... but ultimately everyone is replaceable in a way that just flies in the face that you're supposed to be a hero. Basically, for the 99% of players that aren't a Guild or Raid Leader, you are only as useful as the sum of your gear score and... well... even then, you're more like a screwdriver than a person. If we can't find you, no matter, we have 250 more screwdrivers that can take your place.
It's time for something better.
Third, if there's PvP, I want it to *mean* something. Arenas, Rated Battlegrounds, competitions for invisible numbers and the top 1% get some cosmetic stuff... whoopie. It was great 10 years ago. Now it's time for something better. I want to feel immersed and *connected* to what I'm doing. I want an MMO to make me feel pride in defending *my* lands and anger/resentment when they are lost. I want it to matter when we win and when we lose. No more World PvP/RVR that I have no connection to. Who the hell cares if we have 1 tower, 2 towers, no towers, all the towers in some random zone like Wintergrasp or Barraden's Hold or T1-T4 Warhammer zones that I'm just a stranger in anyway in a battle that'll just be forgotten in 5 minutes and repeated in 2 hours tops.
It's time for something better.
What are these MMO features that I'm looking for? I'll let you know when I see them... but from what I've seen, TESO doesn't have it. It's just more of the same old seafood.
I would like to share my thoughts and experiences with the ESO community. This is a subjective post. I don't have an exact amount, but I think its conceivable to say that I have played MMO's for almost 10,000 hours cumulatively over my 15 years of MMO gaming. If you believe in the rule, than I am a professional.
Pay models, combat systems, and aesthetics of a game are all things you should understand and judge personally. I am ashamed for the professional reviewers of ESO. If they did a review of Salmon it would be "ehh, kinda tases like chicken and I wanted it to be more fishy. It has a lemon with it, who still puts lemon on their salmon? I feel like I have to eat this Salmon first before I try some of the sides, even though they're right in front of me." Awful!
$15 is less than 1% of total monthly income for a median individual. This is a monthly investment to a company that pays returns in updates, balances, and new content. Complaining about a pay model, or even, reviewing a game negatively because of its pay model is absurd. Any consumer can look at the pay model and understand the circumstances, one would hope. However, the ongoing argument consumes people who can't acknowledge the advantages and negatives of each system on an individual basis. Why do we battle for extremes? Why does no one argue pay per hour, pay per day, or pay per week?
End-game is a destructive term to a game, not to be highlighted or quickly attained. The end game of an MMO is a point where you have accomplished everything you set out to, maybe in raids or PvP, regardless you enter into a cycle of lackluster repetition until the next content is released. Why would someone ever seek out end game while ignoring the rest a game has to offer. This is traditionally what MMO's have offered us, initial excitement and adventure, followed by the monotony of end game. Do power gamers still exist, have they wised, or do they remain a victim of causality - rushing through each game's content only to succumb to eventual boredom and a ruined outlook on MMO gaming.
I look at this game (ESO), both externally and internally, and think about the journey, adventure, and exploration into the unseen. I like to be challenged. These are things I seek in both a single player and multi-player game, hell, even a book! The multi-player element adds more complex elements to the game such as friendships with like-minded individuals, the elation of teamwork (especially in success), the action and reaction in PvP, chance encounters. I am realistic to my wants and needs as a gamer, especially in an MMO. This game has what I want.
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end." E.H.
See you in Tamriel
I agree wholeheartedly. I really wish I could discuss what I enjoyed about ESO but unfortunately . . .
Most of what I've read just comes off as people being burned out, period. IMO. People just tired.
Hell, some people don't even know what they want or what they are looking for. Design an MMO around that.
Maybe one of these days those people will know what is missing and will build something outstanding.
If ESO didn't have competition, then sure $15 is nothing. But it competes against all kinds of entertainment choices.
For me, if an MMO is charging WOW prices it had better deliver what WOW does or do something else incredibly well. IP alone isn't enough - just look at SWTOR or LOTRO.
I can only tell you what I'm *not* looking for in an MMO.
First, I'm not looking for an MMO that has me running around like an errand boy, doing pointless quests that don't impact the world and are just clearly timesinks/busy work. And I don't mean the GW2 approach of trading !s over NPCs heads for Hearts on a minimap where you do the same pointless things quest givers would tell you to do. This is the WoW Model. It's too antiquated. It's time for something better.
Second, I'm not looking for an MMO that couldn't care less if you were logged in or not. In WoW, if you don't show up at raid night, someone goes on Raid Browser and finds a replacement for you. Easy. If you're a funny guy, folks might miss you on Vent. If you're a raid leader, folks might have to retrain a new one... but ultimately everyone is replaceable in a way that just flies in the face that you're supposed to be a hero. Basically, for the 99% of players that aren't a Guild or Raid Leader, you are only as useful as the sum of your gear score and... well... even then, you're more like a screwdriver than a person. If we can't find you, no matter, we have 250 more screwdrivers that can take your place.
It's time for something better.
Third, if there's PvP, I want it to *mean* something. Arenas, Rated Battlegrounds, competitions for invisible numbers and the top 1% get some cosmetic stuff... whoopie. It was great 10 years ago. Now it's time for something better. I want to feel immersed and *connected* to what I'm doing. I want an MMO to make me feel pride in defending *my* lands and anger/resentment when they are lost. I want it to matter when we win and when we lose. No more World PvP/RVR that I have no connection to. Who the hell cares if we have 1 tower, 2 towers, no towers, all the towers in some random zone like Wintergrasp or Barraden's Hold or T1-T4 Warhammer zones that I'm just a stranger in anyway in a battle that'll just be forgotten in 5 minutes and repeated in 2 hours tops.
It's time for something better.
What are these MMO features that I'm looking for? I'll let you know when I see them... but from what I've seen, TESO doesn't have it. It's just more of the same old seafood.
You do not like questing. You do not like being replaceable or forgotten. Are you sure you even want to play an MMO? I see it in your writing, you are NOT looking for an MMO. Hopefully you find what you're looking for.
Does TESO have what features similar to other MMOs? Yes, because quite simply, it is an MMO.
ESO is trying to draw in two groups of people mmo fans TES fans.
Since it takes 5-10 hours to get to level 10 and you can only show 15 minutes of footage and reveiw up to level 15 therefore most reviewers are concentrating on the 1-10 experience which is very mediocre so...
TES fans say: this isn't as good as Skyrim and I don't have to pay $15 a month to play Skyrim.
MMO fans say: this isn't that much better than gw2 and I don't have to pay $15 a month for gw2.
People aren't fixating on the $15 because they're broke, they fixating on it because there are alternatives that are just as good that don't charge it. This could turn around depending on how much the game picks up at level 10 and how well Zenimax does at showing off the games features that are worth paying $15 a month rather than the ones that aren't.
THANK YOU!
These days there are a lot(video games) in fact and upcoming ones too.
Which is why I have yet to...even after reading the OP, seen a good legit real reason to give 15 dollars out to one video game that.
Once again I believe it may be because I'm a gamer and not [just] an MMORPG player.
This is all true. I am not trying to defend any particular pay model. I am coming from the standpoint that it is pointless (absurd) to review a game negatively because of its pay model. I would say the exact same thing if someone reviewed the game negatively because it was free to play.
If 1-10 is the only thing people care about then that's like judging a book by its cover.
How about ESO does what WoW did and make 1-10 free (1-20 is too much seeing how ESO has 40 less levels) and 11+ cost 15 per month?
Although lvl 1-10 of 30 days of game time is only ~1% of game time, which is like 10 cents. But WAIT...we DO actually get 1 month free, so by the time you actually pay for the monthly you should be long passed level 10 anyways.
Basically, the subscription model as a reason to not by the game for the reason of 1-10 being lackluster (for some) is pretty stupid.
I had fun at level 5 because my skill choices became pretty fun. So not everyone feels the same.
I can only tell you what I'm *not* looking for in an MMO.
First, I'm not looking for an MMO that has me running around like an errand boy, doing pointless quests that don't impact the world and are just clearly timesinks/busy work. And I don't mean the GW2 approach of trading !s over NPCs heads for Hearts on a minimap where you do the same pointless things quest givers would tell you to do. This is the WoW Model. It's too antiquated. It's time for something better.
Second, I'm not looking for an MMO that couldn't care less if you were logged in or not. In WoW, if you don't show up at raid night, someone goes on Raid Browser and finds a replacement for you. Easy. If you're a funny guy, folks might miss you on Vent. If you're a raid leader, folks might have to retrain a new one... but ultimately everyone is replaceable in a way that just flies in the face that you're supposed to be a hero. Basically, for the 99% of players that aren't a Guild or Raid Leader, you are only as useful as the sum of your gear score and... well... even then, you're more like a screwdriver than a person. If we can't find you, no matter, we have 250 more screwdrivers that can take your place.
It's time for something better.
Third, if there's PvP, I want it to *mean* something. Arenas, Rated Battlegrounds, competitions for invisible numbers and the top 1% get some cosmetic stuff... whoopie. It was great 10 years ago. Now it's time for something better. I want to feel immersed and *connected* to what I'm doing. I want an MMO to make me feel pride in defending *my* lands and anger/resentment when they are lost. I want it to matter when we win and when we lose. No more World PvP/RVR that I have no connection to. Who the hell cares if we have 1 tower, 2 towers, no towers, all the towers in some random zone like Wintergrasp or Barraden's Hold or T1-T4 Warhammer zones that I'm just a stranger in anyway in a battle that'll just be forgotten in 5 minutes and repeated in 2 hours tops.
It's time for something better.
What are these MMO features that I'm looking for? I'll let you know when I see them... but from what I've seen, TESO doesn't have it. It's just more of the same old seafood.
You do not like questing. You do not like being replaceable or forgotten. Are you sure you even want to play an MMO? I see it in your writing, you are NOT looking for an MMO. Hopefully you find what you're looking for.
Does TESO have what features similar to other MMOs? Yes, because quite simply, it is an MMO.
I refuse to believe the MMO genre has devolved to the point where it's only an MMO if you are a replaceable errand boy.
Many people will buy it and play the first free month.
Far fewer will retain their sub for the second month.
The key will be once the game hits the 6 months mark, very few modern subs models have survived a year and all of those the writing was on the wall after about 6 months. As such monthly subs fee is a mute point, it's a cash grab like all the other games of it's like and will be abandoned once they realise its unsustainable. Sad truth is they already know it's unsustainable and so does everyone else, but everyone plays ball because once the game goes F2P it won't be the same experience.
You CANNOT deride the term "End Game" in ANY linear game that has a level cap, by definition there HAS to be an "end game" or at least "top end content". This, as we all know is completely unsustainable and is why all new mmorpg's fail to retain players once they have completed all the "content". Game over, move on. The notion that all players who ignore all the "content" along the levelling road and "rush" to "end game" i find insulting, who are you to decide what is a normal players play style, time available to indulge their gaming and natural progression ability? What about people who want to experience the pvp but don't like pve content? Must they stop and smell every flower along the way even though they have no sense of smell? No, definitely not.
The litmus test will be how the pvp holds up (It's not RvR, im pretty sure that term is owned by EA), is it's the usual zero consequence keep swap pointless circular system employed by games like GW2 and PS/PS2 then it'll struggle. THIS is the potentially inexhaustable "end game" content. Done right this game will be amazingly successful, done badly and it's F2P in 6 months.
Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy
Many people will buy it and play the first free month.
Far fewer will retain their sub for the second month.
The key will be once the game hits the 6 months mark, very few modern subs models have survived a year and all of those the writing was on the wall after about 6 months. As such monthly subs fee is a mute point, it's a cash grab like all the other games of it's like and will be abandoned once they realise its unsustainable. Sad truth is they already know it's unsustainable and so does everyone else, but everyone plays ball because once the game goes F2P it won't be the same experience.
You CANNOT deride the term "End Game" in ANY linear game that has a level cap, by definition there HAS to be an "end game" or at least "top end content". This, as we all know is completely unsustainable and is why all new mmorpg's fail to retain players once they have completed all the "content". Game over, move on. The notion that all players who ignore all the "content" along the levelling road and "rush" to "end game" i find insulting, who are you to decide what is a normal players play style, time available to indulge their gaming and natural progression ability? What about people who want to experience the pvp but don't like pve content? Must they stop and smell every flower along the way even though they have no sense of smell? No, definitely not.
The litmus test will be how the pvp holds up (It's not RvR, im pretty sure that term is owned by EA), is it's the usual zero consequence keep swap pointless circular system employed by games like GW2 and PS/PS2 then it'll struggle. THIS is the potentially inexhaustable "end game" content. Done right this game will be amazingly successful, done badly and it's F2P in 6 months.
There's another thread from a powerleveler that has him going to VR1 in 56 hours. I'm assuming max level isn't greatly more since he did it like 8 times.
I'm still on the fence. I'm only considering the game because some of my friends want to play. To me the game is pretty average with a decent crafting system but I'm only playing Neverwinter right now so just about any system is better than that. I don't like the display. Combat seems dated. Hybridizing doesn't seem that unique (DDO lite?). Limiting player owned shops depending who has control in PVP is grating to me, especially since I generally dislike PVP. Will I regret spending the time and $100+ till I eventually hit the level 10+ content and decide that the game isn't for me?
And these are minor, but for all the things in game that you can manipulate, I dislike seeing all this equipment artwork that you can't touch. I'm wielding a club, but I can't pick up this nice sword on the ground because its artwork. The game also feels like the world is at peace. Few guards walking about. No defensive positions of any consequence. The invasion point on the starter island is like 20 NPCs or less. Maybe the outside areas have roving bands of bandits, but I don't remember seeing any hostile mobs outside of dungeons/caves that weren't animals.
Comments
It's not an underestimation, but more of a different viewpoint as to why the game has caught so much flak recently. There are plenty of people who want to play online in the ES world. What reeree and myself are referring to is the potential mindset of those who are on the fence about the game, and/or who are making negative commentary about the game.
What remains to be seen is what audience the game ultimately attracts more of. Pure TES fans or MMO fans, yes there is cross-over between the two (more so from the PC gaming core I'm sure), but there is a potential that the game will retain one audience over the other. If the MMO fans stay and enjoy the game, ESO might flourish with the sub model. If it turns out to be more tradition TES fans, we might see the game shift to B2P with more cash shop options.
Of course, all we can do is speculate.
To OP.
I have played MMOs as long as you. I agree wit ha lot you have said.
However as you know there are different styles of play.
To add to your comments id say to those interested in the issues that some people like the challenge of levelling as quickly as possible and jumping in to "end game" content.
Where games fail they at least get to enjoy the game at its busiest time, and doing some "end game" content before the servers empties.
They can go back and enjoy the scenery on alts and when there are fewer players around.
It is not easy to build guilds at the best of times but guild leaders are often under pressure to hit "end game" relatively quickly so their guild can be seen to be performing at what is rightly or wrongly seen as a high level in the game.
A thriving MMORPG is ultimately what most people want because that allows styles room to play.
^^^^
MMORPG players are not going to stay if there isnt enough MMORPG going on.
I think a lot of Skyrim sales went to people who probably didnt end up playing the game very much simply because it was a well publisised release. A large % of the MMORPG players that picked it up won't have been satisfied with Skyrim as a substitute for MMORPG and so ESO wont hold them.
I am more sympathetic the other way round but only through ignorance.
It is one thing getting a game as a present or a one off purchase and another being prepared to pay a sub for it. No reason why people wouldnt come and go from ESO on subs if the game grows. If it doesnt then MMORPG players wont resub and I dont see many returning when it goes F2P.
F2P would appeal to new players or arguably Skyrim players that bought ESO initally but were not happy about paying a sub.
When it coesm down to it, it is al labout risk and reward.
Where is the risk in what is being done with ESO now ? if you design to be F2P you almost start with a product at the mature stage of its lifecycle. It is positioned to meet a different niches needs and it is never going to go up the food chain to a sub situation which rightly or wrongly is perceived as a higher quality product.
ESO can easily move from Box + Sub to F2P in consumers minds without loosing its high quality perception to the F2P niche. SWTOR LOTRO (AoC) etc have done this and it is a well trodden path. It does nothing for the high end of the genre.
But there is no worry of your server becoming empty, that can't actually happen in this game providing the game has a total active population at or above what other games have on a single busy server (around 8k), and lets be honest even if the game was the worst mmo in the world it would definately have more than 8-10k players
+1
fully agree with OP
Well the whole mega server thing raises other issues. it doesnt solve the main problems that really matter to mmorpg players AFAIK.
How do you create community when the server is potentially so big with people spread over difference instances, phases etc AND you have design almost no community building aspect in the game (No Raids, No chat bubbles, Ropey/laggy Chat function, 4 man dungeons, no names above char heads, being in 5 guilds etc . The answer is . .you dont. It might serve small guilds or groups of friends very well.. until they start to fragment. There is almost nothing in the traditional server set up that stops small groups of players interacting.
There will be no community unless we work round the restrictions and adapt.
A server may as well be empty to an MMORPG player who enjoys community if he hardly ever interacts with other players or sees his acquaintances so infrequently.
The only benefits for community that I see in this megaserver setup are if the game does shrink to such a level that we bump into people all the time because there are so few left.
You want minimal UI .. fine at the expense of what ?
I am not even gonna bother thinking about this game in any sort of truly judgemental fashion until a month after release even if I wind up playing it.
The reviewers are mostly worthless, a few good one. The paid guys are especially bad. They are so bad they should pay me to watch. Sometimes I think being exposed to paid reviewers actually makes you stupider. Nothing to do with TESO reviews per se, that is for all games.
To use your metaphor. People aren't saying they wish the Salmon tasted better. People are saying: "I'm sick of seafood."
EQ invented the 3D Theme Park MMO Salmon. WoW added seasoning and cooked it. All people have done since WoW has added sides. TESO is no exception, just the most recent offender.
I am sick of seafood. So are most reviewers. Someone revolutionize the genre and get me a fracking steak!
Good point. I think WoW unintentionally ruined MMOs for a lot of people, it was too good. You're probably included, you want something different because you've done it all before. You try new MMORPGS, but nothing ever really feels close to that initial feeling you had during your first MMORPG experience. The Theme Park style MMORPG is not going to change radically, this is what it is. The only thing that matters is if the world you are in and if those aesthetics and stories are enough to keep you interested.
Lets apply another relationship. Why do popular basketball players release shoe lines? Because Michael Jordan - argued as the greatest basketball player - made incredible money doing it. Now, other popular basketball players follow the model. Do the shoes change? Appearance wise yes, but the principal of the shoe is the same.
What is it exactly that you are looking for in an MMO?
I can tell you what I'd really go for right about now...a game with Skyrim's features, that encompasses all of Tamriel, has many players, and doesn't look like a console game on PC.
Well said!
And OP I agree with you.
Personally I am playing this Because its finally a MP game set in the ES lore. I am not expecting the second coming of MMOs, just a good time with my friends in an ES game.
To me thats well worth the $15 a month. To others it might not be.
I find game reviews from "professionals" akin to movie critics. Movie critics rate the worst garbage high and the best movies poorly. I never pay any attention to them. I find it entertaining how many times movie critics rate blockbuster movies poorly.
The same goes for games. Say what you will about Warcraft for example, but that game was huge for a reason. (I used to play, but haven't in a few years) The critics said it would flop and Everquest 2 would be a huge hit. They were ass backwards. It is best just to not pay them any attention.
The only reviews worth any attention are the reviews that come out after a game is launched by the users themselves at sites like meta-critic. More than that, the only way you know if you'll like a game is to try it and I intend to try this game. I'll see if I like it after it launches.
I for one am excited for a game that focuses on the more traditional feel of an RPG with adventuring, lore, epic story arcs, and challenge. Games making leveling faster and faster trivializes what is often the best part of the game and reduces the use of 90% of the MMO landscape. (since there is rarely a reason to return to lower level zones)
While I could write a short essay on this, I'll stop with, "it's about damn time a company had the guts to return to the basics of what made RPGs great to begin with and put it back into an MMO where it belongs with a nice shine from modern day technology."
THANK YOU!
These days there are a lot(video games) in fact and upcoming ones too.
Which is why I have yet to...even after reading the OP, seen a good legit real reason to give 15 dollars out to one video game that.
Once again I believe it may be because I'm a gamer and not [just] an MMORPG player.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
I can only tell you what I'm *not* looking for in an MMO.
First, I'm not looking for an MMO that has me running around like an errand boy, doing pointless quests that don't impact the world and are just clearly timesinks/busy work. And I don't mean the GW2 approach of trading !s over NPCs heads for Hearts on a minimap where you do the same pointless things quest givers would tell you to do. This is the WoW Model. It's too antiquated. It's time for something better.
Second, I'm not looking for an MMO that couldn't care less if you were logged in or not. In WoW, if you don't show up at raid night, someone goes on Raid Browser and finds a replacement for you. Easy. If you're a funny guy, folks might miss you on Vent. If you're a raid leader, folks might have to retrain a new one... but ultimately everyone is replaceable in a way that just flies in the face that you're supposed to be a hero. Basically, for the 99% of players that aren't a Guild or Raid Leader, you are only as useful as the sum of your gear score and... well... even then, you're more like a screwdriver than a person. If we can't find you, no matter, we have 250 more screwdrivers that can take your place.
It's time for something better.
Third, if there's PvP, I want it to *mean* something. Arenas, Rated Battlegrounds, competitions for invisible numbers and the top 1% get some cosmetic stuff... whoopie. It was great 10 years ago. Now it's time for something better. I want to feel immersed and *connected* to what I'm doing. I want an MMO to make me feel pride in defending *my* lands and anger/resentment when they are lost. I want it to matter when we win and when we lose. No more World PvP/RVR that I have no connection to. Who the hell cares if we have 1 tower, 2 towers, no towers, all the towers in some random zone like Wintergrasp or Barraden's Hold or T1-T4 Warhammer zones that I'm just a stranger in anyway in a battle that'll just be forgotten in 5 minutes and repeated in 2 hours tops.
It's time for something better.
What are these MMO features that I'm looking for? I'll let you know when I see them... but from what I've seen, TESO doesn't have it. It's just more of the same old seafood.
I agree wholeheartedly. I really wish I could discuss what I enjoyed about ESO but unfortunately . . .
Most of what I've read just comes off as people being burned out, period. IMO. People just tired.
Hell, some people don't even know what they want or what they are looking for. Design an MMO around that.
Maybe one of these days those people will know what is missing and will build something outstanding.
Or maybe it's all just hot air.
If ESO didn't have competition, then sure $15 is nothing. But it competes against all kinds of entertainment choices.
For me, if an MMO is charging WOW prices it had better deliver what WOW does or do something else incredibly well. IP alone isn't enough - just look at SWTOR or LOTRO.
You do not like questing. You do not like being replaceable or forgotten. Are you sure you even want to play an MMO? I see it in your writing, you are NOT looking for an MMO. Hopefully you find what you're looking for.
Does TESO have what features similar to other MMOs? Yes, because quite simply, it is an MMO.
This is all true. I am not trying to defend any particular pay model. I am coming from the standpoint that it is pointless (absurd) to review a game negatively because of its pay model. I would say the exact same thing if someone reviewed the game negatively because it was free to play.
If 1-10 is the only thing people care about then that's like judging a book by its cover.
How about ESO does what WoW did and make 1-10 free (1-20 is too much seeing how ESO has 40 less levels) and 11+ cost 15 per month?
Although lvl 1-10 of 30 days of game time is only ~1% of game time, which is like 10 cents. But WAIT...we DO actually get 1 month free, so by the time you actually pay for the monthly you should be long passed level 10 anyways.
Basically, the subscription model as a reason to not by the game for the reason of 1-10 being lackluster (for some) is pretty stupid.
I had fun at level 5 because my skill choices became pretty fun. So not everyone feels the same.
I refuse to believe the MMO genre has devolved to the point where it's only an MMO if you are a replaceable errand boy.
Many people will buy it and play the first free month.
Far fewer will retain their sub for the second month.
The key will be once the game hits the 6 months mark, very few modern subs models have survived a year and all of those the writing was on the wall after about 6 months. As such monthly subs fee is a mute point, it's a cash grab like all the other games of it's like and will be abandoned once they realise its unsustainable. Sad truth is they already know it's unsustainable and so does everyone else, but everyone plays ball because once the game goes F2P it won't be the same experience.
You CANNOT deride the term "End Game" in ANY linear game that has a level cap, by definition there HAS to be an "end game" or at least "top end content". This, as we all know is completely unsustainable and is why all new mmorpg's fail to retain players once they have completed all the "content". Game over, move on. The notion that all players who ignore all the "content" along the levelling road and "rush" to "end game" i find insulting, who are you to decide what is a normal players play style, time available to indulge their gaming and natural progression ability? What about people who want to experience the pvp but don't like pve content? Must they stop and smell every flower along the way even though they have no sense of smell? No, definitely not.
The litmus test will be how the pvp holds up (It's not RvR, im pretty sure that term is owned by EA), is it's the usual zero consequence keep swap pointless circular system employed by games like GW2 and PS/PS2 then it'll struggle. THIS is the potentially inexhaustable "end game" content. Done right this game will be amazingly successful, done badly and it's F2P in 6 months.
Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy
There's another thread from a powerleveler that has him going to VR1 in 56 hours. I'm assuming max level isn't greatly more since he did it like 8 times.
I'm still on the fence. I'm only considering the game because some of my friends want to play. To me the game is pretty average with a decent crafting system but I'm only playing Neverwinter right now so just about any system is better than that. I don't like the display. Combat seems dated. Hybridizing doesn't seem that unique (DDO lite?). Limiting player owned shops depending who has control in PVP is grating to me, especially since I generally dislike PVP. Will I regret spending the time and $100+ till I eventually hit the level 10+ content and decide that the game isn't for me?
And these are minor, but for all the things in game that you can manipulate, I dislike seeing all this equipment artwork that you can't touch. I'm wielding a club, but I can't pick up this nice sword on the ground because its artwork. The game also feels like the world is at peace. Few guards walking about. No defensive positions of any consequence. The invasion point on the starter island is like 20 NPCs or less. Maybe the outside areas have roving bands of bandits, but I don't remember seeing any hostile mobs outside of dungeons/caves that weren't animals.