Prove to me otherwise. Show me a MMORPG without a paladin class that's successful.
You can't, as it doesn't exist.
My whole point.
Wizard 101
EVE Online
Ultima Online (Paladin, Elves, Pirates, Ninjas and Necromancers have been added since release)
Guild Wars (introduced Paladin in Nightfall)
Puzzle Pirates
There's a list of some.
It's a bit disingenuous to ask such a question of a fantasy RPG dominated genre, as a paladin is as likely a class as rogue or mage.
It's only my opinion, but I actually think the GW2 Guardian fits too. Not optimally, but never the less, it fits.
IN a single build/Play Style, you do have defense, support and (albeit rather limited) offense. But regardless, Their group functionality is incorporated through combat. (Combo Fields, Dodge Rolls, Shouts, Virtues etc.)
GW2 doesn't follow the Holy Trinity (thus, no roles), which D&D classes follow, so scratch that.
The concept of "aggro" was something introduced in video games, like Everquest. The pen-and-paper RPG that was Dungeons and Dragons had a living DM who directed the enemies your party faced, and he didn't follow some preset aggro table that could be abused. A good DM would make smart monsters target weakness, such as a bandit archer shooting at the magic user or healer, and ignoring the fighters as much as possible. At the same time, dumb monsters, like natural creatures or your average goblin, would tend to just attack whomever looked easiest, or was closest, and wouldn't usually switch targets on their own.
If we had an MMO that actually played like D&D, you'd have people whining because their class couldn't solo ALL non-dungeon content. A high level fighter would still get mowed down by a small group of archers, or a couple of mages flinging fireballs. A high level mage would still die horribly to a single backstab.
As someone that sill plays D and D weekly and will be playing GURPS I am surprised I didn't make this point earlier. A great example of this are all of the PvP related class nerfs made in Vanilla WoW, since rogues dropped casters like nothing, ranged classes would destroy warriors, and if a warrior ever caught a rogue they were pretty much dead.
And that depends on the level of the classes. At low levels a warrior has a decent chance to split open a wizard or ranged class, but at higher levels without magic items a warrior becomes a wizard's plaything.
I remember the PC Gamer magazine where the guy who made Ultima ONline talked about making Muds into MMOs and it sounded fantastic.
Now its such a relic. Players moved at teh SPeed of PLot, the trinity was non existant (if you need healing in combat youre close to dead anyway) and the story was not something you clicked through for loot. Back on the healing thing, I can't tell you how many times the "warrior heavy armor guy" refuses healing. Doesn't want to waste it unless his HP is really low. Now, if this is fun in the PNP world, why has no one ever tried to relay that to the real world. Neverwinter, DND Online and Pathfinder are all let downs, taking traditional MMO tropes and just branding them.
I think you are talking about turn based combat. I doubt many MMOs would try to incorporate that. It's like playing a game of chess. You have to line up your thanks in the right positions to block the enemies from getting to you Thieves and Mages. There was actually one or two healing spells in D&D that were useful in combat.
There was a complete full heal that you got somewhere at later levels and there was lay on hands for Paladins.
I used to think my "great" achievements in these games mattered. As the years go by I seem to remember the raids, the gear and the long hours earning these achievements less and less.
The friends I made when I wasn't being all hard core are still around and I still play games with them. When we talk about the past in gaming it's almost never about those serious moments people seem to say are important. It's about the dumb things people said or did and the funny moments we had in the past.
I don't think getting more casual is the real problem with mmos. The real problem with mmos is the people who never realized that what they think is missing from the games, is really missing from their real lives. These things should be just games you have fun in. Your life altering accomplishments that you're proud of years later shouldn't be from a raid in a video game.
I don't disagree with you that spending time building and having good family and friends will make you happier in life. With that said people choose different paths. Perhaps they have a good reason for choosing the one they go down and perhaps it leads them to being alone a fair amount. I'm not saying you should get your achievement from a video game, but I do enjoy the competition of a hard PvE progression game. I do take get some happiness from being able to progress in something that many other people get frustrated and quit in. It's no different that someone who plays chess for hours everyday and feels accomplishment from being able to out wait and out think their opponents.
while i found the OP very interesting, i think that from the standpoint of a new school player, even WoW's raids got me at the border of boredom, too much time organizing all the stuff. i think the problem is that the current state of dungeons and raids is the pattern they seem to get now:
-short instances, usually 1 way
-too much trash mobs
-harder as fuck bosses
-the dungeon drops uber loots
-in order to complete it you have to finish it, sometimes the whole so you are obligued to stay mroe than 4 hours raiding
i think it would be better if we had large dungeons that can be completed by the player in thime, instead of making a single rush in a dungeon that can take more than 3 hours to complete. i mean, you could have a whole large and complex catacomb or similar and explore the parts you want and find a boss or something while exploring.
-less or no trash mobs
-no need to organice more than 5 people teams
-doesnt have respawns until completed, the dungeon saves its current completion and allows the player to complete it later
-you dont have to spend large amounts of time or stay a whole day doing it, unless you really want to do that, you can decide to complete it when you want.
-dungeon mobs should be hard and should drop interesting materials, but not epic loots, instead they could give crafting materials so no raiding elitism
-less time creating boss mechanics and other stuff would lead to more emphasis in dungeon mechanics, in fact, it would be cool if they were procedurally generated, instead of fixed instances.....it would make raiding and dungeons more dinamic....
I'm a hardcore pen & paper RPG player, and I do not miss the old graph paper dungeon style. Layouts never made sense. They took forever to navigate, and did nothing other than to facilitate the combat aspect of the RPG. The main reason video games used them was because they could be easily rendered one room at a time.
As for modern day FPS games that have linear maps on rails; well that's just because the focus is on telling a story, much like a movie. There's nothing wrong with that. I'll take another crappy Call of Duty map, that immerses me in the moment over another old school game where the room layouts make no sense, have no sense of scale or relation to the outside world, and gate you with the constant 'keycard' system where saving the day hinges on you finding keybards conveniently in the same area...
I'm a hardcore pen & paper RPG player, and I do not miss the old graph paper dungeon style. Layouts never made sense. They took forever to navigate, and did nothing other than to facilitate the combat aspect of the RPG. The main reason video games used them was because they could be easily rendered one room at a time.
As for modern day FPS games that have linear maps on rails; well that's just because the focus is on telling a story, much like a movie. There's nothing wrong with that. I'll take another crappy Call of Duty map, that immerses me in the moment over another old school game where the room layouts make no sense, have no sense of scale or relation to the outside world, and gate you with the constant 'keycard' system where saving the day hinges on you finding keybards conveniently in the same area...
they need to get into a balance, not be overly complicated in structure and mechanics, but without being an easy linear path with trash mobs and unnecessary difficult bosses.
what i find most strange is that most of the loot comes from mobs, while the dungeon could have different loots in each room. i mean. things like coffers, barrels, bins, in the case of being an abandoned mine or something like that it could even have ore veins or something, gonna put the Skyrim examples. those are interesting dungeons, where you can practically loot almost everything and isnt overly crowded with mobs (sometimes)......
I'm a hardcore pen & paper RPG player, and I do not miss the old graph paper dungeon style. Layouts never made sense. They took forever to navigate, and did nothing other than to facilitate the combat aspect of the RPG. The main reason video games used them was because they could be easily rendered one room at a time.
As for modern day FPS games that have linear maps on rails; well that's just because the focus is on telling a story, much like a movie. There's nothing wrong with that. I'll take another crappy Call of Duty map, that immerses me in the moment over another old school game where the room layouts make no sense, have no sense of scale or relation to the outside world, and gate you with the constant 'keycard' system where saving the day hinges on you finding keybards conveniently in the same area...
they need to get into a balance, not be overly complicated in structure and mechanics, but without being an easy linear path with trash mobs and unnecessary difficult bosses.
what i find most strange is that most of the loot comes from mobs, while the dungeon could have different loots in each room. i mean. things like coffers, barrels, bins, in the case of being an abandoned mine or something like that it could even have ore veins or something, gonna put the Skyrim examples. those are interesting dungeons, where you can practically loot almost everything and isnt overly crowded with mobs (sometimes)......
Well, the problem with the Skyrim system is it's actually very linear. Practically every dungeon is a circle, where you have only one path available, until you defeat the final boss. Then you take an exit that returns you right near the entrance, for convenience. And having so much lootable stuff is fine and dandy for single-player. It would just bog down multiplayer games. It was bad enough seeing everyone in WoW rush for the chest (back when they had them in dungeons) to get the loot. It would be even worse if each room meant having an old "shop till you drop" experience of everyone running around trying to grab as much as they can before someone else does. And if loot was evenly spread, then you'd just spend a bunch of time opening various containers for vendor trash while others are asking to "pull faster.
I do agree that a slight balance is needed between the two systems. I just don't think the current system is as far off as it seems, and trying to draw comparisons to single-player sandbox games doesn't paint an accurate picture.
MMOs are not suppose to be hard, but they are supposed to last long and offer a long term gaming experience, and that's exactly where these new games fail at. It takes years to develope an MMO and it takes few weeks for even the most casual player to reach endgame. Surely there's something wrong in the equation.
Says who? I think they should be just fun, and whether long term or not is irrelevant.
I finished the story campaign on marvel heroes with two heroes for 60 hours of fun. That is certainly not long term but why would i not like 60 hours of fun?
I may go back and play more, i may not .. but the point is you don't need a game to last a year to have fun. And there is no lack of games to play after i finished that 60 hours of fun.
I think he's talking from the developer's point of view. You need player retention to recoup the development costs of making the dungeon. Even if your super short, super easy and linear dungeon is found fun (lots of players wouldn't find it fun), they will quickly run out of reasons to do it and leave the game. Which means loss of revenue for the developer.
I think he's talking from the developer's point of view. You need player retention to recoup the development costs of making the dungeon. Even if your super short, super easy and linear dungeon is found fun (lots of players wouldn't find it fun), they will quickly run out of reasons to do it and leave the game. Which means loss of revenue for the developer.
That sounds great.. But if you design for too much retention people don't play your game in the first place. You have to get players to play your game first - then you can worry about keeping them.
I favour the BC WoW design. Easy to play but hard to master. You just make content that is mostly easy but progressively gets harder until it gets really hard and progress is slowed a ton. Throw in some time gating (weekly raids) and some modest grinding (rep grinds) and everyone ends up happy.
Its a compromise. Like I said BC WoW skirted the line better then any game. If you have to pick a side - you still want easier though. Because again you have to get people to play your game before you worry about holding onto them.
i think it would be better if we had large dungeons that can be completed by the player in thime, instead of making a single rush in a dungeon that can take more than 3 hours to complete. i mean, you could have a whole large and complex catacomb or similar and explore the parts you want and find a boss or something while exploring.
-less or no trash mobs
-no need to organice more than 5 people teams
-doesnt have respawns until completed, the dungeon saves its current completion and allows the player to complete it later
-you dont have to spend large amounts of time or stay a whole day doing it, unless you really want to do that, you can decide to complete it when you want.
-dungeon mobs should be hard and should drop interesting materials, but not epic loots, instead they could give crafting materials so no raiding elitism
-less time creating boss mechanics and other stuff would lead to more emphasis in dungeon mechanics, in fact, it would be cool if they were procedurally generated, instead of fixed instances.....it would make raiding and dungeons more dinamic....
Good suggestions. This conversation has again polarized to old vs. new instead of a discussion on what good aspects of old could be incorporated and how to new games. There are certainly ways to make the dungeons more interesting and challenging without making them huge timesinks.
Somebody (sorry, forgot who) made a joke on the dungeons in daggerfall. I happen to miss them and think that's one of the ways es has declined:P I don't expect to see them in an mmorpg tho.. what I do expect are different kinds of dungeons and new mechanisms to allow exploration and more diverse challenge in them. This shouldn't be a question of whether there is market for it or not.
I think the main reason why you don't see these longer dungeons and more companies catering to the old school niche is because the systems as they are keep a large portion of the market out and it seems "Old School" gamers don't want casuals to be able to progress in a game unless they play the same way as them. so so wrong.. you really should look at the history of WHO made up WoW main driving force of raiding and progression..
That's part of it, and the whole "entitlement" argument came from that 10% (20% max) that played at that level, yet took the bulk of the development money and time, and those who didn't get into those raids and spawn camps (that 80-90%) were shafted and told to play in their playpen. Not so, and I'll explain later..
Those elitists are perfectly happy to TAKE the money, but not share the benefits. LFR came, it looked like the anti-Christ arrived. They lost their power grip on how the game not only is run, but how it can be played.
The truth is in MMOs it's more about who you know, not what you know that gets you places (much like work). That part is true and it's the Uber Guild raiders that are in charge.. So all that ragging is for show. And this is one of the game genres where social skills aren't very high nor polished (I can never understand -- why -- introverts will seek group play games, it's masochistic).
Mainstream consumers will not tolerate that locker room mentality. Pull that junk with cable, it's going to look ugly at the city regulatory meeting.
So this "last gasp" is the old guard crying in their cups as their golden age of gaming is waxing, and a newer generation is coming in who don't relate with the old ways in doing things at all.
The OLD guard IS WHO designed and controls the current raiding formula.. Seriously you should step back and take a look at who is REALLY calling the shots..
PS edit.. I forgot to explain the uber guild raiding thing.. You seem to give the impression it's the old gamers that are crying feeling left out.. which is entirely wrong.. Reality is that MOST of the development of raids and end game in WoW and after was by former EQ POWER raiders.. The instance system used by WoW and others is not casual friendly.. It was always designed to separate the elitist from the casuals.. Hence the raid/dungeon LOCKOUTS and reset timers.. OH sure the devs will say those are there to control the consumption of content and that would be a LIE.. Those lockout and timers are there to segregate the community and turn it more into PvE Esport then anything.. LOCKOUTS are an exclusive mechanic..
Why do you think raiding changed from 40 man to smaller numbers? It wasn't for the excuse of increased raid opportunity, it was a backdoor mechanic to thin out the ranks some more.. To get the cream of the crop and cause MORE guild esport and challenge similar to what PoP did with EQ.. Trust me, the raiding game in ALL mmo's are still controlled by the elitest power gamers.. Always have, always will..
Today's MMORPG's are innovative? MOBA's have been around for OVER a decade.. Where have ya'll been? Counter-strike is just one example dating back since 1999? Heard of Doom? There were PvP games well underway growing in popularity.. WoW wasn't innovative with battlegrounds.. Instancing wasn't innovative depending what side of the aisle you stood on.. One man's trash is another man's treasure.. This holds true in a lot of MMORPG's mechanics.. Anyways..
Isn't the TOPIC suppose to be about OPEN WORLD DUNGEONS.. Why do some feel necessary to change it to a our preference is better then your preference????
Isn't the TOPIC suppose to be about OPEN WORLD DUNGEONS..
And back to 1998 again with CONTESTED dungeons where all the campers and griefers made online life hell?
There's a reason why instances came to be, and why so many prefer them...so they don't have to deal with group A taking the whole dungeon for themselves.
PS edit.. I forgot to explain the uber guild raiding thing.. You seem to give the impression it's the old gamers that are crying feeling left out.. which is entirely wrong..
No it isn't.
Saw it in EQII (and see it in WoW), long before 2010...
^ Avatar guild drama in EQII's 70-79 chat in 2009. Avatar guilds are the top guilds in the game. After that dressing down (by the whole server -- and why it lasted over 4hrs -- not even the GMs were going to touch that server wide flame-a-thon). After that top avatar guild's GL got his wall of shame on EQ2Flames, I left EQII for WoW, happy justice was served.
That experience taught me what I took to WoW to overcome. I love LFD and LFR, as SOE didn't listen when I suggested something like it back in 2008, and was frankly SICK of top/down guild hierarchies that are as every bit spoiled and feel so entitled.
Yeah, been there. Seen it. Experienced it. And hell no, not returning to THAT "glory". They can stick it.
Isn't the TOPIC suppose to be about OPEN WORLD DUNGEONS..
And back to 1998 again with CONTESTED dungeons where all the campers and griefers made online life hell?
There's a reason why instances came to be, and why so many prefer them...so they don't have to deal with group A taking the whole dungeon for themselves.
Again.. you seem to NOT grasp what an OPEN world zone is.. You can make the same argument about contested OPEN world zones like "The Barrens" in WoW.. Really.. YOU seem to be obsessed that dungeons have to be BOSS encounter zones.. This has nothing to do with camping bosses, or instancing.. OMFG.. Take a step back and cool off and think with an UNBIASED mind here.. All we are talking about is a OPEN world zone no different then The Barrens.. There are zones that are snowbound, some that are tropical, some like a desert.. so why not have one that is underground.. Are you catching on yet?
PS edit.. I forgot to explain the uber guild raiding thing.. You seem to give the impression it's the old gamers that are crying feeling left out.. which is entirely wrong..
No it isn't.
Saw it in EQII (and see it in WoW), long before 2010...
^ Avatar guild drama in EQII's 70-79 chat in 2009. Avatar guilds are the top guilds in the game. After that dressing down (by the whole server -- and why it lasted over 4hrs -- not even the GMs were going to touch that server wide flame-a-thon). After that top avatar guild's GL got his wall of shame on EQ2Flames, I left EQII for WoW, happy justice was served.
That experience taught me what I took to WoW to overcome. I love LFD and LFR, as SOE didn't listen when I suggested something like it back in 2008, and was frankly SICK of top/down guild hierarchies that are as every bit spoiled and feel so entitled.
Yeah, been there. Seen it. Experienced it. And hell no, not returning to THAT "glory". They can stick it.
Really? So you take the conduct of an elite guild and APPLY it to an entire genre of gamers? OH BTW.. EQ2 is NOT "old style" fyi... And the same type of guild drama still exist in Rift, WoW and SWTOR.. Wake up.. Many of the elite guilds like this are "cross-gaming" meaning their guild exist on multiple games..
PS edit.. I forgot to explain the uber guild raiding thing.. You seem to give the impression it's the old gamers that are crying feeling left out.. which is entirely wrong..
No it isn't.
Saw it in EQII (and see it in WoW), long before 2010...
^ Avatar guild drama in EQII's 70-79 chat in 2009. Avatar guilds are the top guilds in the game. After that dressing down (by the whole server -- and why it lasted over 4hrs -- not even the GMs were going to touch that server wide flame-a-thon). After that top avatar guild's GL got his wall of shame on EQ2Flames, I left EQII for WoW, happy justice was served.
That experience taught me what I took to WoW to overcome. I love LFD and LFR, as SOE didn't listen when I suggested something like it back in 2008, and was frankly SICK of top/down guild hierarchies that are as every bit spoiled and feel so entitled.
Yeah, been there. Seen it. Experienced it. And hell no, not returning to THAT "glory". They can stick it.
Really? So you take the conduct of an elite guild and APPLY it to an entire genre of gamers? OH BTW.. EQ2 is NOT "old style" fyi... And the same type of guild drama still exist in Rift, WoW and SWTOR.. Wake up.. Many of the elite guilds like this are "cross-gaming" meaning their guild exist on multiple games..
Do you read? I've seen it in plenty of the top heavy games...and before "casuals" came. That's just an example from EQII in 2009 (so it's not just a WoW issue).
EQII is "old style" as those playing it played EQ, and were also playing EQII. My guild leader then was a raider in EQ, many of the officers were, also.
So make more excuses, the facts are the entitled aren't the casuals, it's the very VOCAL elitists who are control freaks.
PS edit.. I forgot to explain the uber guild raiding thing.. You seem to give the impression it's the old gamers that are crying feeling left out.. which is entirely wrong..
No it isn't.
Saw it in EQII (and see it in WoW), long before 2010...
^ Avatar guild drama in EQII's 70-79 chat in 2009. Avatar guilds are the top guilds in the game. After that dressing down (by the whole server -- and why it lasted over 4hrs -- not even the GMs were going to touch that server wide flame-a-thon). After that top avatar guild's GL got his wall of shame on EQ2Flames, I left EQII for WoW, happy justice was served.
That experience taught me what I took to WoW to overcome. I love LFD and LFR, as SOE didn't listen when I suggested something like it back in 2008, and was frankly SICK of top/down guild hierarchies that are as every bit spoiled and feel so entitled.
Yeah, been there. Seen it. Experienced it. And hell no, not returning to THAT "glory". They can stick it.
Really? So you take the conduct of an elite guild and APPLY it to an entire genre of gamers? OH BTW.. EQ2 is NOT "old style" fyi... And the same type of guild drama still exist in Rift, WoW and SWTOR.. Wake up.. Many of the elite guilds like this are "cross-gaming" meaning their guild exist on multiple games..
Do you read? I've seen it in plenty of the top heavy games...and before "casuals" came. That's just an example from EQII in 2009 (so it's not just a WoW issue).
EQII is "old style" as those playing it played EQ, and were also playing EQII. My guild leader then was a raider in EQ, many of the officers were, also.
So make more excuses, the facts are the entitled aren't the casuals, it's the very VOCAL elitists who are control freaks.
EQII is not old style.. and to claim it is because there are EQ raiders playing EQII is silly.. WoW raids were influenced by EQ raiders are still are.. Raiders are Raiders.. and most of them will always have an elitist attitude in any game.. Including your beloved WoW.. Being entitled depends on what side of the street you stand on.. Not sure why you are bringing that up in this topic.. You have gone way off the reservation on this topic..
One thing I love about GW2 is the soft grouping mechanic.. No one is told to go home, or sorry maybe next week.. I would love to see GW2 come out with new zones such a one comprised mostly of dungeons and underground paths.. Many of the zones have mini dungeons to explore in, but I wish they would take it further.. To the point one can get lost in.. I remember that Rift had a couple underground caves to explore in, just not big enough to really make it work..
PS edit.. I forgot to explain the uber guild raiding thing.. You seem to give the impression it's the old gamers that are crying feeling left out.. which is entirely wrong..
No it isn't.
Saw it in EQII (and see it in WoW), long before 2010...
^ Avatar guild drama in EQII's 70-79 chat in 2009. Avatar guilds are the top guilds in the game. After that dressing down (by the whole server -- and why it lasted over 4hrs -- not even the GMs were going to touch that server wide flame-a-thon). After that top avatar guild's GL got his wall of shame on EQ2Flames, I left EQII for WoW, happy justice was served.
That experience taught me what I took to WoW to overcome. I love LFD and LFR, as SOE didn't listen when I suggested something like it back in 2008, and was frankly SICK of top/down guild hierarchies that are as every bit spoiled and feel so entitled.
Yeah, been there. Seen it. Experienced it. And hell no, not returning to THAT "glory". They can stick it.
Really? So you take the conduct of an elite guild and APPLY it to an entire genre of gamers? OH BTW.. EQ2 is NOT "old style" fyi... And the same type of guild drama still exist in Rift, WoW and SWTOR.. Wake up.. Many of the elite guilds like this are "cross-gaming" meaning their guild exist on multiple games..
Do you read? I've seen it in plenty of the top heavy games...and before "casuals" came. That's just an example from EQII in 2009 (so it's not just a WoW issue).
EQII is "old style" as those playing it played EQ, and were also playing EQII. My guild leader then was a raider in EQ, many of the officers were, also.
So make more excuses, the facts are the entitled aren't the casuals, it's the very VOCAL elitists who are control freaks.
EQII is not old style.. and to claim it is because there are EQ raiders playing EQII is silly.. WoW raids were influenced by EQ raiders are still are.. Raiders are Raiders.. and most of them will always have an elitist attitude in any game.. Including your beloved WoW.. Being entitled depends on what side of the street you stand on.. Not sure why you are bringing that up in this topic.. You have gone way off the reservation on this topic..
EQII is indeed old style, it's 2 weeks older than WoW.
Secondly, WoW raids weren't just influenced by EQ raiders, the original devs WERE guild/raid leaders in EQ. Just like EQII raiders came from EQ.
But the point is, the elitist attitude comes from the source...and it's not WoW itself.
Isn't the TOPIC suppose to be about OPEN WORLD DUNGEONS..
And back to 1998 again with CONTESTED dungeons where all the campers and griefers made online life hell?
There's a reason why instances came to be, and why so many prefer them...so they don't have to deal with group A taking the whole dungeon for themselves.
I never was thrilled with it, but I considered it part of the challenge and what gave the game some meaning. Without real people to contest with for things the game becomes very simple and to a large extent boring. Basically you just fallow a preset path that was setup for you to win every battle and always progress forward. I guess there is nothing wrong with that if you don't really have any interest in competing at all.
Isn't the TOPIC suppose to be about OPEN WORLD DUNGEONS..
And back to 1998 again with CONTESTED dungeons where all the campers and griefers made online life hell?
There's a reason why instances came to be, and why so many prefer them...so they don't have to deal with group A taking the whole dungeon for themselves.
I never was thrilled with it, but I considered it part of the challenge and what gave the game some meaning. Without real people to contest with for things the game becomes very simple and to a large extent boring. Basically you just fallow a preset path that was setup for you to win every battle and always progress forward. I guess there is nothing wrong with that if you don't really have any interest in competing at all.
Isn't the TOPIC suppose to be about OPEN WORLD DUNGEONS..
And back to 1998 again with CONTESTED dungeons where all the campers and griefers made online life hell?
There's a reason why instances came to be, and why so many prefer them...so they don't have to deal with group A taking the whole dungeon for themselves.
I never was thrilled with it, but I considered it part of the challenge and what gave the game some meaning. Without real people to contest with for things the game becomes very simple and to a large extent boring. Basically you just fallow a preset path that was setup for you to win every battle and always progress forward. I guess there is nothing wrong with that if you don't really have any interest in competing at all.
What I compete with in WoW is oxygen, as it has 1000000001 trolls.
Don't feed the animals, please!
I'm not saying contested dungeons/mobs are always fun. Sometimes you fail to get loot. Someone might steal the kill you have been waiting for. It's still better than having no real competition at all. It's part of why PvE is a joke in MMOs and even single player games now.
I have to disagree with that opinion. My time is to valuable to be wasted due to competition for mobs etc. I want to be able to progress my way unhindered but that type of mechanic.
Then again that's my opinion if you enjoy that type of competition fine but I think any mechanic that can waste my time is just bad design.
Comments
I think you are talking about turn based combat. I doubt many MMOs would try to incorporate that. It's like playing a game of chess. You have to line up your thanks in the right positions to block the enemies from getting to you Thieves and Mages. There was actually one or two healing spells in D&D that were useful in combat.
There was a complete full heal that you got somewhere at later levels and there was lay on hands for Paladins.
I don't disagree with you that spending time building and having good family and friends will make you happier in life. With that said people choose different paths. Perhaps they have a good reason for choosing the one they go down and perhaps it leads them to being alone a fair amount. I'm not saying you should get your achievement from a video game, but I do enjoy the competition of a hard PvE progression game. I do take get some happiness from being able to progress in something that many other people get frustrated and quit in. It's no different that someone who plays chess for hours everyday and feels accomplishment from being able to out wait and out think their opponents.
while i found the OP very interesting, i think that from the standpoint of a new school player, even WoW's raids got me at the border of boredom, too much time organizing all the stuff. i think the problem is that the current state of dungeons and raids is the pattern they seem to get now:
-short instances, usually 1 way
-too much trash mobs
-harder as fuck bosses
-the dungeon drops uber loots
-in order to complete it you have to finish it, sometimes the whole so you are obligued to stay mroe than 4 hours raiding
i think it would be better if we had large dungeons that can be completed by the player in thime, instead of making a single rush in a dungeon that can take more than 3 hours to complete. i mean, you could have a whole large and complex catacomb or similar and explore the parts you want and find a boss or something while exploring.
-less or no trash mobs
-no need to organice more than 5 people teams
-doesnt have respawns until completed, the dungeon saves its current completion and allows the player to complete it later
-you dont have to spend large amounts of time or stay a whole day doing it, unless you really want to do that, you can decide to complete it when you want.
-dungeon mobs should be hard and should drop interesting materials, but not epic loots, instead they could give crafting materials so no raiding elitism
-less time creating boss mechanics and other stuff would lead to more emphasis in dungeon mechanics, in fact, it would be cool if they were procedurally generated, instead of fixed instances.....it would make raiding and dungeons more dinamic....
I'm a hardcore pen & paper RPG player, and I do not miss the old graph paper dungeon style. Layouts never made sense. They took forever to navigate, and did nothing other than to facilitate the combat aspect of the RPG. The main reason video games used them was because they could be easily rendered one room at a time.
As for modern day FPS games that have linear maps on rails; well that's just because the focus is on telling a story, much like a movie. There's nothing wrong with that. I'll take another crappy Call of Duty map, that immerses me in the moment over another old school game where the room layouts make no sense, have no sense of scale or relation to the outside world, and gate you with the constant 'keycard' system where saving the day hinges on you finding keybards conveniently in the same area...
You make me like charity
they need to get into a balance, not be overly complicated in structure and mechanics, but without being an easy linear path with trash mobs and unnecessary difficult bosses.
what i find most strange is that most of the loot comes from mobs, while the dungeon could have different loots in each room. i mean. things like coffers, barrels, bins, in the case of being an abandoned mine or something like that it could even have ore veins or something, gonna put the Skyrim examples. those are interesting dungeons, where you can practically loot almost everything and isnt overly crowded with mobs (sometimes)......
Well, the problem with the Skyrim system is it's actually very linear. Practically every dungeon is a circle, where you have only one path available, until you defeat the final boss. Then you take an exit that returns you right near the entrance, for convenience. And having so much lootable stuff is fine and dandy for single-player. It would just bog down multiplayer games. It was bad enough seeing everyone in WoW rush for the chest (back when they had them in dungeons) to get the loot. It would be even worse if each room meant having an old "shop till you drop" experience of everyone running around trying to grab as much as they can before someone else does. And if loot was evenly spread, then you'd just spend a bunch of time opening various containers for vendor trash while others are asking to "pull faster.
I do agree that a slight balance is needed between the two systems. I just don't think the current system is as far off as it seems, and trying to draw comparisons to single-player sandbox games doesn't paint an accurate picture.
You make me like charity
Says who? I think they should be just fun, and whether long term or not is irrelevant.
I finished the story campaign on marvel heroes with two heroes for 60 hours of fun. That is certainly not long term but why would i not like 60 hours of fun?
I may go back and play more, i may not .. but the point is you don't need a game to last a year to have fun. And there is no lack of games to play after i finished that 60 hours of fun.
I think he's talking from the developer's point of view. You need player retention to recoup the development costs of making the dungeon. Even if your super short, super easy and linear dungeon is found fun (lots of players wouldn't find it fun), they will quickly run out of reasons to do it and leave the game. Which means loss of revenue for the developer.
That sounds great.. But if you design for too much retention people don't play your game in the first place. You have to get players to play your game first - then you can worry about keeping them.
I favour the BC WoW design. Easy to play but hard to master. You just make content that is mostly easy but progressively gets harder until it gets really hard and progress is slowed a ton. Throw in some time gating (weekly raids) and some modest grinding (rep grinds) and everyone ends up happy.
Its a compromise. Like I said BC WoW skirted the line better then any game. If you have to pick a side - you still want easier though. Because again you have to get people to play your game before you worry about holding onto them.
Good suggestions. This conversation has again polarized to old vs. new instead of a discussion on what good aspects of old could be incorporated and how to new games. There are certainly ways to make the dungeons more interesting and challenging without making them huge timesinks.
Somebody (sorry, forgot who) made a joke on the dungeons in daggerfall. I happen to miss them and think that's one of the ways es has declined:P I don't expect to see them in an mmorpg tho.. what I do expect are different kinds of dungeons and new mechanisms to allow exploration and more diverse challenge in them. This shouldn't be a question of whether there is market for it or not.
The OLD guard IS WHO designed and controls the current raiding formula.. Seriously you should step back and take a look at who is REALLY calling the shots..
PS edit.. I forgot to explain the uber guild raiding thing.. You seem to give the impression it's the old gamers that are crying feeling left out.. which is entirely wrong.. Reality is that MOST of the development of raids and end game in WoW and after was by former EQ POWER raiders.. The instance system used by WoW and others is not casual friendly.. It was always designed to separate the elitist from the casuals.. Hence the raid/dungeon LOCKOUTS and reset timers.. OH sure the devs will say those are there to control the consumption of content and that would be a LIE.. Those lockout and timers are there to segregate the community and turn it more into PvE Esport then anything.. LOCKOUTS are an exclusive mechanic..
Why do you think raiding changed from 40 man to smaller numbers? It wasn't for the excuse of increased raid opportunity, it was a backdoor mechanic to thin out the ranks some more.. To get the cream of the crop and cause MORE guild esport and challenge similar to what PoP did with EQ.. Trust me, the raiding game in ALL mmo's are still controlled by the elitest power gamers.. Always have, always will..
Today's MMORPG's are innovative? MOBA's have been around for OVER a decade.. Where have ya'll been? Counter-strike is just one example dating back since 1999? Heard of Doom? There were PvP games well underway growing in popularity.. WoW wasn't innovative with battlegrounds.. Instancing wasn't innovative depending what side of the aisle you stood on.. One man's trash is another man's treasure.. This holds true in a lot of MMORPG's mechanics.. Anyways..
Isn't the TOPIC suppose to be about OPEN WORLD DUNGEONS.. Why do some feel necessary to change it to a our preference is better then your preference????
And back to 1998 again with CONTESTED dungeons where all the campers and griefers made online life hell?
There's a reason why instances came to be, and why so many prefer them...so they don't have to deal with group A taking the whole dungeon for themselves.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
No it isn't.
Saw it in EQII (and see it in WoW), long before 2010...
^ Avatar guild drama in EQII's 70-79 chat in 2009. Avatar guilds are the top guilds in the game. After that dressing down (by the whole server -- and why it lasted over 4hrs -- not even the GMs were going to touch that server wide flame-a-thon). After that top avatar guild's GL got his wall of shame on EQ2Flames, I left EQII for WoW, happy justice was served.
That experience taught me what I took to WoW to overcome. I love LFD and LFR, as SOE didn't listen when I suggested something like it back in 2008, and was frankly SICK of top/down guild hierarchies that are as every bit spoiled and feel so entitled.
Yeah, been there. Seen it. Experienced it. And hell no, not returning to THAT "glory". They can stick it.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Again.. you seem to NOT grasp what an OPEN world zone is.. You can make the same argument about contested OPEN world zones like "The Barrens" in WoW.. Really.. YOU seem to be obsessed that dungeons have to be BOSS encounter zones.. This has nothing to do with camping bosses, or instancing.. OMFG.. Take a step back and cool off and think with an UNBIASED mind here.. All we are talking about is a OPEN world zone no different then The Barrens.. There are zones that are snowbound, some that are tropical, some like a desert.. so why not have one that is underground.. Are you catching on yet?
Really? So you take the conduct of an elite guild and APPLY it to an entire genre of gamers? OH BTW.. EQ2 is NOT "old style" fyi... And the same type of guild drama still exist in Rift, WoW and SWTOR.. Wake up.. Many of the elite guilds like this are "cross-gaming" meaning their guild exist on multiple games..
Do you read? I've seen it in plenty of the top heavy games...and before "casuals" came. That's just an example from EQII in 2009 (so it's not just a WoW issue).
EQII is "old style" as those playing it played EQ, and were also playing EQII. My guild leader then was a raider in EQ, many of the officers were, also.
So make more excuses, the facts are the entitled aren't the casuals, it's the very VOCAL elitists who are control freaks.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
EQII is not old style.. and to claim it is because there are EQ raiders playing EQII is silly.. WoW raids were influenced by EQ raiders are still are.. Raiders are Raiders.. and most of them will always have an elitist attitude in any game.. Including your beloved WoW.. Being entitled depends on what side of the street you stand on.. Not sure why you are bringing that up in this topic.. You have gone way off the reservation on this topic..
Now back on topic..
DUNGEONS
One thing I love about GW2 is the soft grouping mechanic.. No one is told to go home, or sorry maybe next week.. I would love to see GW2 come out with new zones such a one comprised mostly of dungeons and underground paths.. Many of the zones have mini dungeons to explore in, but I wish they would take it further.. To the point one can get lost in.. I remember that Rift had a couple underground caves to explore in, just not big enough to really make it work..
EQII is indeed old style, it's 2 weeks older than WoW.
Secondly, WoW raids weren't just influenced by EQ raiders, the original devs WERE guild/raid leaders in EQ. Just like EQII raiders came from EQ.
But the point is, the elitist attitude comes from the source...and it's not WoW itself.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
I never was thrilled with it, but I considered it part of the challenge and what gave the game some meaning. Without real people to contest with for things the game becomes very simple and to a large extent boring. Basically you just fallow a preset path that was setup for you to win every battle and always progress forward. I guess there is nothing wrong with that if you don't really have any interest in competing at all.
Contested dungeons sucked. Always did, always will.
What I compete with in WoW is oxygen, as it has 1000000001 trolls.
Don't feed the animals, please!
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
I'm not saying contested dungeons/mobs are always fun. Sometimes you fail to get loot. Someone might steal the kill you have been waiting for. It's still better than having no real competition at all. It's part of why PvE is a joke in MMOs and even single player games now.
Then again that's my opinion if you enjoy that type of competition fine but I think any mechanic that can waste my time is just bad design.