Originally posted by Crazy_Stick In the modern day and casual gaming environment I am not sure anyone can come up with a worthy death penalty anyone will accept, find valuable to the play experience, or not be circumvented by abuse of some play mechanic. It is what it is. An excuse to run for a drink or taco before respawn.
Separate servers. Unfortunately using this method will make us realize how few of us actually support death penalties because those would be the first servers to get merged.
That's because most people don't connect the dots between not having a death penalty and the unintended side-effects of making such an unwise game design choice. If players could vote on all of their desires, they would all have God-like abilities and be able to smite 50 players in one blow. Just imagine how horrible the game would be if everybody could get all their selfish desires fulfilled without effort or consequence.
People in back just getting to the fight, if you are clear of enemies and see a couple people down, rez them. 2 people are better than 1. I'm a healer and went into PVP with 40 soul gems and I can honestly tell you we won a keep because while every one was standing at the inner door waiting for it to come down. I went just outside the outer gate and rezed 7 people to help with the push inside.
Drop Forward Camps, if no camps use some crystals to rez people outside of the fire zones.
It's not that it's too much a penalty, it's that people in PVP (because we've only played a few weekends) need to adapt and actually prep/organize before a big push to secure the O ring of keeps.
People in back just getting to the fight, if you are clear of enemies and see a couple people down, rez them. 2 people are better than 1. I'm a healer and went into PVP with 40 soul gems and I can honestly tell you we won a keep because while every one was standing at the inner door waiting for it to come down. I went just outside the outer gate and rezed 7 people to help with the push inside.
Drop Forward Camps, if no camps use some crystals to rez people outside of the fire zones.
Sir I died 20 time after even wining keep no body resurrected A lot of people just run by LOT of people no body resurrected.
And this is disappointing if you're front line pushing
First no body want to push in front !!! every one is afraid to die!
Being melee you will die a lot you will hate Cyrodil
in beta After getting to lvl 10 we rushed in Wvw I died like 20 times SOme guy was keeping screaming to push. We won and took keep. Guess what nobody resurrected me I died 10 time in that fight every single type I was rushing the gate with Dreagon leap.
after we took it no body even stoped to resurrect dead people. in practice it's horrable it's ok if you're a range mage a selfish bastard.
But if you're melee you will hate it
it's even more punishing that people don't resurrect other people because of EXPENSIVE soul gems ...
It's not exactly safe for the range folks, either. Imagine if a phalanx of tanks plowed through the ranks of squishies. That's a whole lot of dead squishies. And it's hard to concentrate fire on one tank when you have a team of them charging for you, which is why that tactic is usually pretty effective. I remember doing this all the time in WAR. It would surprise the hell out of the range happy folks since they get so comfortable in their safety zone. It scatters them like the wind and it's a very effective tactic to push the zerg back.
The key for this is to convince enough tanks who aren't too chicken-shit to brave everything that gets thrown at us.
People in back just getting to the fight, if you are clear of enemies and see a couple people down, rez them. 2 people are better than 1. I'm a healer and went into PVP with 40 soul gems and I can honestly tell you we won a keep because while every one was standing at the inner door waiting for it to come down. I went just outside the outer gate and rezed 7 people to help with the push inside.
Drop Forward Camps, if no camps use some crystals to rez people outside of the fire zones.
Sir I died 20 time after even wining keep no body resurrected A lot of people just run by LOT of people no body resurrected.
And this is disappointing if you're front line pushing
If we can make people aware by these discussions then in time we will see people adapt, some people may have not taken the time to realize exactly what you can do. I drop a forward camp, I've spent my PVP credits just as well as buying 2 siege engines.. people will adapt... it's just that everyone was in a rush to get as much PVP in during the weekend as possible.
People in back just getting to the fight, if you are clear of enemies and see a couple people down, rez them. 2 people are better than 1. I'm a healer and went into PVP with 40 soul gems and I can honestly tell you we won a keep because while every one was standing at the inner door waiting for it to come down. I went just outside the outer gate and rezed 7 people to help with the push inside.
Drop Forward Camps, if no camps use some crystals to rez people outside of the fire zones.
Sir I died 20 time after even wining keep no body resurrected A lot of people just run by LOT of people no body resurrected.
And this is disappointing if you're front line pushing
If we can make people aware by these discussions then in time we will see people adapt, some people may have not taken the time to realize exactly what you can do. I drop a forward camp, I've spent my PVP credits just as well as buying 2 siege engines.. people will adapt... it's just that everyone was in a rush to get as much PVP in during the weekend as possible.
One person's bad experiences shouldn't drive game design. Obviously, this guy was in some PUG that didn't give a damn. Join a guild.
First no body want to push in front !!! every one is afraid to die!
Being melee you will die a lot you will hate Cyrodil
in beta After getting to lvl 10 we rushed in Wvw I died like 20 times SOme guy was keeping screaming to push. We won and took keep. Guess what nobody resurrected me I died 10 time in that fight every single type I was rushing the gate with Dreagon leap.
after we took it no body even stoped to resurrect dead people. in practice it's horrable it's ok if you're a range mage a selfish bastard.
But if you're melee you will hate it
it's even more punishing that people don't resurrect other people because of EXPENSIVE soul gems ...
It's not exactly safe for the range folks, either. Imagine if a phalanx of tanks plowed through the ranks of squishies. That's a whole lot of dead squishies. And it's hard to concentrate fire on one tank when you have a team of them charging for you, which is why that tactic is usually pretty effective. I remember doing this all the time in WAR. It would surprise the hell out of the range happy folks since they get so comfortable in their safety zone and scatter them like the wind.
The key for this is to convince enough tanks who aren't too chicken-shit to brave everything that gets thrown at us.
Forward camps do great in keeping Tanks in quick jogging distance of the keep, so if we start applying the strategy the I think they will get more ballsy.
Maybe you a re right hope people will be more cooperative at release and care more about people around them. Kinda makes sens rush theory every one wanted to see as much as possible this beta. Gonna search of a good guild also.
but also Horse cost 17k and second 42k
Should I res this guy and waste 200 gold or ignore him and buy horse ? )))) will see how this will develop at release
Upon watching couple Cyrodill first impression/previews/beta reviews by "gaming journalists" such as Rev3, Angryjoe and more, i am shocked that they were unanimously claiming the death penalty is too harsh, because it requires players to spent a COUPLE minutes to run back to the battlefield.
For me this is insane, the death penalty in ESO is like a slap to the hand, minimal item damage that anyone can repairs easily, it sent players back to the CLOSEST keep, on top of that traveling Cyrodill is incredibly easy due to the teleportation system, and yet people complaints about it, I wish more people had experienced the thrill of staying alive in pvp in games like Shadowbane, DAOC or Lineage 2, i might be the minority but i enjoy PVP a whole lot moire when death actually hurts, i understand EXP loss might be too harsh but i hate t he lack of meaningful death penalty in modern MMO like GW2 and to certain extent ESO.
If more people had experienced the thrill of staying alive in games like Shadowbane, DAoC or Lineage 2, the "harsh" death penalties would have just gone away that much faster. People don't want to spend time not playing, and to many (most?) players, running back to their bodies does not constitute playing the game. It also, contrary to what some people, does not encourage people to play "better". It definitely encourages people to complain though, just as the reviewers are doing now.
It's all relative though. The reviewers are complaining, but how much? How much are the players complaining? Relative to everything else about the game, how big a deal is the death penalty? Probably not that big a deal. If it was, you can bet you'd be hearing many more complaints about it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I have no idea how one side would win if the enemy is back in the fight (fully geared) in two minutes max. I must have been playing Darkfall too long because this doesn't seem like you would care if you win or lose as there is no risk.
If I have an itch to play a themepark, I suppose this would be the one. Gfx, setting, combat, character progression are all pretty solid....just not sure I will ever want to go through linear quest chains again.
The death penalty is needed and was planned for. Battle should be thought out and organized, not just a bunch of kiddies zerging because they are unable to think as a group or follow a leader. If you make mistakes and die, hopefully you learn from that and become more experienced. The better experienced = better battles. Take care of your healers and they will take care of you. Play to CRUSH!
Death penalty is absolutely essential to disencourage zerging. If anyone could rezz, there would be no way for a skilled group of players to kill a zerg. There would be no way for an outnumbered faction to win.
Better players win by making less mistakes. If making mistakes has no punishment, it is irrelevant who plays better. That is bad gamedesign.
Originally posted by Crazy_Stick In the modern day and casual gaming environment I am not sure anyone can come up with a worthy death penalty anyone will accept, find valuable to the play experience, or not be circumvented by abuse of some play mechanic. It is what it is. An excuse to run for a drink or taco before respawn.
Separate servers. Unfortunately using this method will make us realize how few of us actually support death penalties because those would be the first servers to get merged.
That's because most people don't connect the dots between not having a death penalty and the unintended side-effects of making such an unwise game design choice. If players could vote on all of their desires, they would all have God-like abilities and be able to smite 50 players in one blow. Just imagine how horrible the game would be if everybody could get all their selfish desires fulfilled without effort or consequence.
Only problem I see is in expensive soul gem needed for resurrect, because spending their money for other people is not very inspiring and I as a dragon knight tank experienced this on my self . At release will play a back line Mage DPS or Healer .
Maybe you a re right hope people will be more cooperative at release and care more about people around them. Kinda makes sens rush theory every one wanted to see as much as possible this beta. Gonna search of a good guild also.
but also Horse cost 17k and second 42k
Should I res this guy and waste 200 gold or ignore him and buy horse ? )))) will see how this will develop at release
Buy them empty and fill them, its only about 60 gold for an empty one, filling takes almost no time... I gave away 17 before I even got to PVP. Sure horses are expensive at least at low levels, but I can make enough in one weekend to buy a horse (again it's Beta so I didn't spend the time). At least keep a couple filled in inventory, being front line they might have less opportunity to rez but there will come a time when we see the opportunity there.
The death penalty in ESO is barely noticeable. Word to the wise though, if you are using crafted gear of normal quality, it's more economical to just make new pieces periodically than to repair the ones you are wearing, if you are dying a lot.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
Originally posted by CazNeerg The death penalty in ESO is barely noticeable. Word to the wise though, if you are using crafted gear of normal quality, it's more economical to just make new pieces periodically than to repair the ones you are wearing, if you are dying a lot.
I think the stiffer the death penalty, the more downtime between PVP activity. If it's okay to only PVP every few days because people are trying to recover gear, levels, skills, death sickness, etc, then perhaps that's what you should advocate. Or fill up your bank accounts with spare armor/weapons?
For example, let's say you could display a vanquished foe's corpse on the city gates, but until that player retrieved their body while you were guarding it, they wouldn't return to life. Is that cool or just griefing?
I think the stiffer the death penalty, the more downtime between PVP activity. If it's okay to only PVP every few days because people are trying to recover gear, levels, skills, death sickness, etc, then perhaps that's what you should advocate. Or fill up your bank accounts with spare armor/weapons?
For example, let's say you could display a vanquished foe's corpse on the city gates, but until that player retrieved their body while you were guarding it, they wouldn't return to life. Is that cool or just griefing?
In Shadowbane ( a pvp - oriented mmo with harsh death penalty), most people own two or more sets of armor, they wear different sets for different battles/sieges, for example the first wave of attack with lesser powerful gear to see if it is sufficient, if not then everyone suits up their best gear.
Most importantly people do the whole Zerg->Rez->Zerg->Rez rinse and repeat for hoursssss, which is imo boring and tiresome like GW2
And since items are actually lootable/destructable, crafters were extremely important to basically every guilds in the game who wanna compete.
Comments
That's because most people don't connect the dots between not having a death penalty and the unintended side-effects of making such an unwise game design choice. If players could vote on all of their desires, they would all have God-like abilities and be able to smite 50 players in one blow. Just imagine how horrible the game would be if everybody could get all their selfish desires fulfilled without effort or consequence.
Honestly this can be circumvented by strategy.
1. Use forward camps
2. Bring Soul Gems to a fight
People in back just getting to the fight, if you are clear of enemies and see a couple people down, rez them. 2 people are better than 1. I'm a healer and went into PVP with 40 soul gems and I can honestly tell you we won a keep because while every one was standing at the inner door waiting for it to come down. I went just outside the outer gate and rezed 7 people to help with the push inside.
Drop Forward Camps, if no camps use some crystals to rez people outside of the fire zones.
It's not that it's too much a penalty, it's that people in PVP (because we've only played a few weekends) need to adapt and actually prep/organize before a big push to secure the O ring of keeps.
Sir I died 20 time after even wining keep no body resurrected A lot of people just run by LOT of people no body resurrected.
And this is disappointing if you're front line pushing
It's not exactly safe for the range folks, either. Imagine if a phalanx of tanks plowed through the ranks of squishies. That's a whole lot of dead squishies. And it's hard to concentrate fire on one tank when you have a team of them charging for you, which is why that tactic is usually pretty effective. I remember doing this all the time in WAR. It would surprise the hell out of the range happy folks since they get so comfortable in their safety zone. It scatters them like the wind and it's a very effective tactic to push the zerg back.
The key for this is to convince enough tanks who aren't too chicken-shit to brave everything that gets thrown at us.
If we can make people aware by these discussions then in time we will see people adapt, some people may have not taken the time to realize exactly what you can do. I drop a forward camp, I've spent my PVP credits just as well as buying 2 siege engines.. people will adapt... it's just that everyone was in a rush to get as much PVP in during the weekend as possible.
One person's bad experiences shouldn't drive game design. Obviously, this guy was in some PUG that didn't give a damn. Join a guild.
Forward camps do great in keeping Tanks in quick jogging distance of the keep, so if we start applying the strategy the I think they will get more ballsy.
Maybe you a re right hope people will be more cooperative at release and care more about people around them. Kinda makes sens rush theory every one wanted to see as much as possible this beta. Gonna search of a good guild also.
but also Horse cost 17k and second 42k
Should I res this guy and waste 200 gold or ignore him and buy horse ? )))) will see how this will develop at release
If more people had experienced the thrill of staying alive in games like Shadowbane, DAoC or Lineage 2, the "harsh" death penalties would have just gone away that much faster. People don't want to spend time not playing, and to many (most?) players, running back to their bodies does not constitute playing the game. It also, contrary to what some people, does not encourage people to play "better". It definitely encourages people to complain though, just as the reviewers are doing now.
It's all relative though. The reviewers are complaining, but how much? How much are the players complaining? Relative to everything else about the game, how big a deal is the death penalty? Probably not that big a deal. If it was, you can bet you'd be hearing many more complaints about it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I have no idea how one side would win if the enemy is back in the fight (fully geared) in two minutes max. I must have been playing Darkfall too long because this doesn't seem like you would care if you win or lose as there is no risk.
If I have an itch to play a themepark, I suppose this would be the one. Gfx, setting, combat, character progression are all pretty solid....just not sure I will ever want to go through linear quest chains again.
Death penalty is absolutely essential to disencourage zerging. If anyone could rezz, there would be no way for a skilled group of players to kill a zerg. There would be no way for an outnumbered faction to win.
Better players win by making less mistakes. If making mistakes has no punishment, it is irrelevant who plays better. That is bad gamedesign.
Period.
You mean Dynasty Warriors?
Buy them empty and fill them, its only about 60 gold for an empty one, filling takes almost no time... I gave away 17 before I even got to PVP. Sure horses are expensive at least at low levels, but I can make enough in one weekend to buy a horse (again it's Beta so I didn't spend the time). At least keep a couple filled in inventory, being front line they might have less opportunity to rez but there will come a time when we see the opportunity there.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
I wish they have a hardcore campagin option .
I think the stiffer the death penalty, the more downtime between PVP activity. If it's okay to only PVP every few days because people are trying to recover gear, levels, skills, death sickness, etc, then perhaps that's what you should advocate. Or fill up your bank accounts with spare armor/weapons?
For example, let's say you could display a vanquished foe's corpse on the city gates, but until that player retrieved their body while you were guarding it, they wouldn't return to life. Is that cool or just griefing?
In Shadowbane ( a pvp - oriented mmo with harsh death penalty), most people own two or more sets of armor, they wear different sets for different battles/sieges, for example the first wave of attack with lesser powerful gear to see if it is sufficient, if not then everyone suits up their best gear.
Most importantly people do the whole Zerg->Rez->Zerg->Rez rinse and repeat for hoursssss, which is imo boring and tiresome like GW2
And since items are actually lootable/destructable, crafters were extremely important to basically every guilds in the game who wanna compete.