There's a post I read here somewhere by a Dev who said he eats very well and actually likes some F2P games because he has greater creative freedom (if I remember correctly}. He said good developers are very well paid and can get good jobs pretty easily.
Also the OP must be a very trusting person to think that the money big companies earn is fairly distributed to all of their employees.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
now first of let me state im not talking about F2P VS P2P thats a diffrent subject.
what im talking about is something i have been seeing alot of late and that is people saying that they should only pay for the box and never have to pay agian, be it cash shop or sub.
this just needs to stop, MMOs take money to continue to function no matter what means you get them though it is a needed evil. if it bothers you that money has to go into these games in one form or another to get everything out of it then stop playing MMOs now cause this will never stop.
DEVs need to eat to people and considering the amount of learning needed, and the average amount of hours put in by a dev per day they get paid way under then the average says they should be getting already.
Nothing is (truly) free - we agree on that I suppose. But there are more ways to make money than the cash shop or sub and taking money directly from the consumer/customer.
All the other industries have started doing that - and you don't even have to look far to find examples of "free" services outside of the MMO market.
For example do you pay to use Google for a search, or Google drive or Google docs or gmail or any of their offering? Yet, don't you think that Google has server costs (arguably more than your typical MMO) - and that these services need money to function?
Now I don't care if YOU are ready (or not) to have ads in your game, surveys to complete to play, make a donation to a charity or have to have a probe in your brain or elsewhere, this is YOUR personal limits and opinion here... But the point (and the fact) is:
There are more ways to make money for companies than to have a sub/cash shop and taking money directly from the consumer, and thus it is perfectly reasonable for people to want a game without sub/cash shop (if they are ready to cope with what comes with it, and I believe most people are).
So you say this new generation is "entitled", lazy, demanding and expect things for free? I say you are just unimaginative, out of phase with the times and naive.
Now, maybe if a new MMO business model hasn't appeared yet it is because there isn't enough money to be made (yet), but if this trend continues and you hear more and more people complaining about the sub/cash shop prices of MMOs, the moment it reaches a tipping point then I can assure you that the offering will change.
I'm still mad I spent money on the box and game for TSW. I think it was $60. I shouldn't have spent $1 on it. Never mind paying anything past that. Paying for a monthly sub or for stuff in a cash shop would have been insane.
Originally posted by Kyleran Well, in all fairness, GW2 proved you can create B2P MMOS, so many people see monthly subs or spendy cash shops as monetary grabs that really aren't based on providing players good value.
GW2 spent alot of time with it cash shop so i find it hard to see it as a pure B2P game.
Considering a lot of single player games these days have microtransactions, whether something has a cash shop or not is hardly indicative of whether it is B2P or not.
One point people need to keep in consideration, is that in the last ten years, the cost to make a game has gone up around 112% for developers. And yet, to buy a game still costs on average $60. Production costs keep going up, but retail prices remain the same. Companies are trying to find creative ways to make more money without ostracizing the gaming public. At the rate game production costs are rising, The bottom is going to drop out eventually. when this happens, it will not be good for players or developers a like.
Nothing is (truly) free - we agree on that I suppose. But there are more ways to make money than the cash shop or sub and taking money directly from the consumer/customer.
Nothing is free for everyone, but can be free for some .. like F2P games. They are free for a majority, and not so for whales.
Nothing is (truly) free - we agree on that I suppose. But there are more ways to make money than the cash shop or sub and taking money directly from the consumer/customer.
Nothing is free for everyone, but can be free for some .. like F2P games. They are free for a majority, and not so for whales.
I've always thought this was a huge misconception that people have about free games, that people playing either spend no money or tons of money. I never spent no money in a f2p game that I stuck around in for any length of time, but I wouldn't say I spent huge amounts either. I mean, who are these whales you all refer to? I have a few friends who like f2p games too, and were talking about how much we actually spent on them, and it came down to about $10-$20 per month for 5-6 months, usually bought in $20 increments. After 5-6 months, purchases slowed way down, even if we continued playing the game, as we generally felt that: A. we had rewarded the people who made it enough, and B. we had enough of the cosmetic stuff that we wanted and there just wasn't any real reason to buy more currency. Now, with human nature and the job market being what they are, I'm sure there are some people who don't spend anything, and there are people who spend amounts that I would find ludicrous, but I'd be willing to bet there's a whole lot more working class men and women, like me and my friends, who throw the occasional few dollars at games we like on a semi regular basis than there are "whales". That leaves out the entire group of one time purchasers as well. One of my friends, being an artist with out much money, makes symbolic cash shop purchases in games she really likes, anywhere from $5 to $20, and that's it. She'll never give that game another dollar no matter how long she plays. I think there's a huge spectrum of people that f2p games make money off of and people are too quick to simplify it in to big spender "whales" and swarms of "free" players.
Nothing is (truly) free - we agree on that I suppose. But there are more ways to make money than the cash shop or sub and taking money directly from the consumer/customer.
Nothing is free for everyone, but can be free for some .. like F2P games. They are free for a majority, and not so for whales.
I've always thought this was a huge misconception that people have about free games, that people playing either spend no money or tons of money. I never spent no money in a f2p game that I stuck around in for any length of time, but I wouldn't say I spent huge amounts either. I mean, who are these whales you all refer to? I have a few friends who like f2p games too, and were talking about how much we actually spent on them, and it came down to about $10-$20 per month for 5-6 months, usually bought in $20 increments. After 5-6 months, purchases slowed way down, even if we continued playing the game, as we generally felt that: A. we had rewarded the people who made it enough, and B. we had enough of the cosmetic stuff that we wanted and there just wasn't any real reason to buy more currency. Now, with human nature and the job market being what they are, I'm sure there are some people who don't spend anything, and there are people who spend amounts that I would find ludicrous, but I'd be willing to bet there's a whole lot more working class men and women, like me and my friends, who throw the occasional few dollars at games we like on a semi regular basis than there are "whales". That leaves out the entire group of one time purchasers as well. One of my friends, being an artist with out much money, makes symbolic cash shop purchases in games she really likes, anywhere from $5 to $20, and that's it. She'll never give that game another dollar no matter how long she plays. I think there's a huge spectrum of people that f2p games make money off of and people are too quick to simplify it in to big spender "whales" and swarms of "free" players.
That article? The one where he specifically says it's pay 2 win games that create those problems? The ones that even most free 2 play fans will tell you are horrible? The article based on his opinion and anecdotal stories regarding both the percentage of players who spend money and whales? I read 9 pages of what was basically an opinion piece with a conclusion that seemed to be that maybe we should do some real research about this. Pay 2 win is bad, but what's worse is some people in this forums knee jerk reaction that makes them call any free 2 play game they see pay 2 win, whether that's true or not. Even the writer of that article set games with respectful cash shops selling convenience and cosmetics apart from what he was talking about. Eh, I'm not going to convince anyone who's made up their minds already, but I really feel breaking it down in to whales and free players does a huge injustice by ignoring lots of fans of free to play games who spend a reasonable amount on entertainment that they enjoy.
Ok I think you need to get off your high horse a little bit here guys. Nobody is asking for free anything.
Free to play games give the option to try the game before you buy the game. It lets you play many hours so you ( the consumer) can see if the company developing the game has a good product. Free to play is also a good option for people who play many mmorpgs. Personally I play 4 casually (all of which I have spent money on as and when I want to) and love the fact I can hop in and out depending on how my mood takes me.
Nobody is asking for everything for free as everyone knows that with free to play, you will end up spending anyways if you enjoy the product. A lot of the time you end up spending more than pay to play so your logic is flawed.
And as for the person who mentioned benefits............I'm not sure how this got into the conversation but I presume you are easily brain washed by the media.
The main reason players like F2P is they don't want to pay, the idea that it acts as an extended trial is a laugh. I am sure you are right for some players but do you seriously think the baulk of F2P players are considering if they want to pay? It is well known that only the minority in a free to play MMO actually pay anything, so I have no idea how you could have come to that conclusion. I have to say Shari that you seem to be a whale, or a whale in the making, maybe that's why you think spending in a F2P MMO is the norm?
Hang on...I see it now, there are no people on benefits, I was brainwashed by the media all along, thanks Shari!
Nobody is owed a free game, if a game that is free does well then it will thrive as has been mentioned. But you are not somehow entitled to a free ride.
If you want examples of people who have been asking for games to be free look no further than the whinging about every MMO that comes out (few as they are now) that is P2P. This site has its share, so it shouldn't be that hard.
I don't complain when subscription games come out, but I can honestly say that I doubt I'll ever pay a subscription again. The game would have to be some kind of genre defining incredible gem to even get me to consider it at this point. I guess I'm part of the "tiny minority" that spends money on f2p games I enjoy, and all my friends who play them just happen to be part of that same "tiny minority". I don't like the subscription model, I don't enjoy the hassle of closing and re-opening subscriptions when I game hop or take a break from gaming. I didn't like it back when hosting and server costs justified it, and I really don't like it now that they don't. I also believe that an active player has enough value to the company that even if they spend nothing in a cash shop asking for a subscription is insulting. I don't like being sold a product(box price) and then being told it's actually a service. I look at the value I got from Guild Wars for my dollars spent and judge each and every new game that comes out by that standard. I'm not going to scream at developers for not catering to me, or say stupid things like "this game uses my favorite payment method and by virtue of that is automatically good, unlike your games which are all bad". I'm just going to keep playing games I enjoy and voting with my wallet. At this point in my life, I work, I make good money, I don't lack anything I need, and I buy what I want. All a game developer has to do to get me to buy a subscription is make something that I actually think is worth giving them $135 or more to play for 6 months. Maybe some day a game developer will make me a subscription MMO that will give more fun for my dollar than the free to play ones are and get me to change my mind, but I doubt it.
Sadly this isn't a clear-cut path of quality. Quite the opposite. Since F2P mmos value whales, the next stage of evolution is clearly P2W.
When the P2W bubble bursts, the F2P market will completely deflate and we'll be back at accent on quality.
Why is it a bubble if there are enough whales to sustain the market? Of course nothing last forever, but is p2p a "bubble" when it lasted for more than a decade?
Do you think p2w is going to collapse in a year or even two?
There is no reason for an MMORPG to have a sub fee at this point. The cost of servers and bandwidth just aren't high enough and the games don't have more dev work than other genre of games with persistent content. A MMORPG doesn't work any differently than a FPS, RTS or aRPG at this point.
If they want to charge for new content you do it with either small expansions like TSW or big ones like WoW.
Sub fees provide a huge barrier to players at this point because of how full the market is. I'm not going to play just one game at a time anymore like in the old days and I'm not spending $15 on a game that eats up 1/3 of my playing time when all the other games are free.
The only way sub fees will survive is to move to the Eve/Wildstar system of being able to spend in game currency to pay your sub. That or charging them for a few months before going B2P later. Actually they could also reduce them to like $5 a month so people could get $15/month out of 3 games, I could see that working. The current model is on its death bed though.
now first of let me state im not talking about F2P VS P2P thats a diffrent subject.
what im talking about is something i have been seeing alot of late and that is people saying that they should only pay for the box and never have to pay agian, be it cash shop or sub.
this just needs to stop, MMOs take money to continue to function no matter what means you get them though it is a needed evil. if it bothers you that money has to go into these games in one form or another to get everything out of it then stop playing MMOs now cause this will never stop.
DEVs need to eat to people and considering the amount of learning needed, and the average amount of hours put in by a dev per day they get paid way under then the average says they should be getting already.
I agree OP. Some development teams have an admirable diet plan going and we players should be paid to play the resulting crap games they have "produced" out of their butt these days...
Originally posted by Reham34 More fun for your dollar? What other form of entertainment is cheaper than sub mmo? This month on my main mmo it came to about $0.30 / hour of entertainment! More fun for your dollar? Yeah ok that makes sense, pretty sure that is hard to beat for dollar/hr of entertainment.
I spent $0 on my 40+ hours played in Hearthstone, much cheaper than $0.30/hr. Also the normal player does not see your results. The normal casual player is gaming something like 50 hours a month and they are playing 3 or 4 games. They probably devoted more like 15 hours into their MMORPG on the month so it was $1/hr. That is still cheap but it isn't straight up about the cost. What if all 4 games charged like that? Suddenly you are spending $60 per month not counting the cost to buy the game, the cost of expansions etc.
The market just is not in a place that is going to allow the current sub fee to thrive. That is why so many games are working around it at this point.
You are a little lost if you think an mmo that pops out updates every 6-9 weeks takes the same development as a fps, rts, or arpg
no, I'm not. D3 has added more new content since it was released than WOW does between expansions. PoE has added more to their game in the past year than WoW has as well. FPS tend to go with a pay per content model but they put stuff out as fast as a normal MMORPG albeit with fewer patches.
SC2 added more new content before its expansion than WoW has between any 2 expansions.
You are falling into the myth that mmorpg add content at a fast pace which generally just isn't true anymore, at least not those that go with an expansion style format.
Maybe go back to the drawing board with your communication abilities because the last I looked b2p isn't free as the b stands for buy and well you don't buy free things.
I actually really loved the original Guild Wars' model of B2P. That was a -real- B2P. Content updates came in the form of frequent box expansions. So if you actually wanted to enjoy that content they spent time developing, you paid for it. If not, then you didn't just pay 5 months worth of subscription to not even benefit from whatever content they implemented.
It was almost like a cash shop, but they developed real content, not this stupid vanity shit or balance-breaking items. They just opened up new worlds/classes, rather than letting you just buy everything.
The other benefit of this, is that once a company stops actively supporting a game, you don't have to pay a dime more.
Sadly, no one else has done a model like this, and even ANet decided it wasn't good enough for them to continue, for whatever reason.
You are a little lost if you think an mmo that pops out updates every 6-9 weeks takes the same development as a fps, rts, or arpg
no, I'm not. D3 has added more new content since it was released than WOW does between expansions. PoE has added more to their game in the past year than WoW has as well. FPS tend to go with a pay per content model but they put stuff out as fast as a normal MMORPG albeit with fewer patches.
SC2 added more new content before its expansion than WoW has between any 2 expansions.
You are falling into the myth that mmorpg add content at a fast pace which generally just isn't true anymore, at least not those that go with an expansion style format.
And don't forget DLCs .. those are done a lot faster than MMO content.
I am fan of P2P and B2P. Because I am a fan of funding. More funding equals a better chance at quality, though there are no guarantees.
I do feel a huge amount of MMO budgets are spent trying to make MMOs live up to solo game standards. The perfectly polished launch, because MMOs don't get updates you know, they have to be perfect. The top end graphics, when trying to compete with a solo game is like riding through a swamp of lag and expecting to keep up with a solo game on dry land. Voice acting, solo games have it so MMOs must have it and so on.
Comments
There's a post I read here somewhere by a Dev who said he eats very well and actually likes some F2P games because he has greater creative freedom (if I remember correctly}. He said good developers are very well paid and can get good jobs pretty easily.
Also the OP must be a very trusting person to think that the money big companies earn is fairly distributed to all of their employees.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Nothing is (truly) free - we agree on that I suppose. But there are more ways to make money than the cash shop or sub and taking money directly from the consumer/customer.
All the other industries have started doing that - and you don't even have to look far to find examples of "free" services outside of the MMO market.
For example do you pay to use Google for a search, or Google drive or Google docs or gmail or any of their offering? Yet, don't you think that Google has server costs (arguably more than your typical MMO) - and that these services need money to function?
Now I don't care if YOU are ready (or not) to have ads in your game, surveys to complete to play, make a donation to a charity or have to have a probe in your brain or elsewhere, this is YOUR personal limits and opinion here... But the point (and the fact) is:
There are more ways to make money for companies than to have a sub/cash shop and taking money directly from the consumer, and thus it is perfectly reasonable for people to want a game without sub/cash shop (if they are ready to cope with what comes with it, and I believe most people are).
So you say this new generation is "entitled", lazy, demanding and expect things for free? I say you are just unimaginative, out of phase with the times and naive.
Now, maybe if a new MMO business model hasn't appeared yet it is because there isn't enough money to be made (yet), but if this trend continues and you hear more and more people complaining about the sub/cash shop prices of MMOs, the moment it reaches a tipping point then I can assure you that the offering will change.
And they do. There are many free games available for everyone to enjoy. Do you think it is still 1990 or something?
Considering a lot of single player games these days have microtransactions, whether something has a cash shop or not is hardly indicative of whether it is B2P or not.
Where are these cries for free MMO's?
I see people saying they won't pay for garbage, I don't see people saying they refuse to pay though.
Nothing is free for everyone, but can be free for some .. like F2P games. They are free for a majority, and not so for whales.
I've always thought this was a huge misconception that people have about free games, that people playing either spend no money or tons of money. I never spent no money in a f2p game that I stuck around in for any length of time, but I wouldn't say I spent huge amounts either. I mean, who are these whales you all refer to? I have a few friends who like f2p games too, and were talking about how much we actually spent on them, and it came down to about $10-$20 per month for 5-6 months, usually bought in $20 increments. After 5-6 months, purchases slowed way down, even if we continued playing the game, as we generally felt that: A. we had rewarded the people who made it enough, and B. we had enough of the cosmetic stuff that we wanted and there just wasn't any real reason to buy more currency. Now, with human nature and the job market being what they are, I'm sure there are some people who don't spend anything, and there are people who spend amounts that I would find ludicrous, but I'd be willing to bet there's a whole lot more working class men and women, like me and my friends, who throw the occasional few dollars at games we like on a semi regular basis than there are "whales". That leaves out the entire group of one time purchasers as well. One of my friends, being an artist with out much money, makes symbolic cash shop purchases in games she really likes, anywhere from $5 to $20, and that's it. She'll never give that game another dollar no matter how long she plays. I think there's a huge spectrum of people that f2p games make money off of and people are too quick to simplify it in to big spender "whales" and swarms of "free" players.
edit: typos
Everyting should be available to all people for free...
Sounds very much like communisme
And that proofed to be a fail about 25 years ago.
In this life nothing comes for free.. some things however are not expensive, like a $3,50 fee to play a game for 168 hours a week...
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
who are these whales?
The people discussed in this article.
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/195806/
That article? The one where he specifically says it's pay 2 win games that create those problems? The ones that even most free 2 play fans will tell you are horrible? The article based on his opinion and anecdotal stories regarding both the percentage of players who spend money and whales? I read 9 pages of what was basically an opinion piece with a conclusion that seemed to be that maybe we should do some real research about this. Pay 2 win is bad, but what's worse is some people in this forums knee jerk reaction that makes them call any free 2 play game they see pay 2 win, whether that's true or not. Even the writer of that article set games with respectful cash shops selling convenience and cosmetics apart from what he was talking about. Eh, I'm not going to convince anyone who's made up their minds already, but I really feel breaking it down in to whales and free players does a huge injustice by ignoring lots of fans of free to play games who spend a reasonable amount on entertainment that they enjoy.
The main reason players like F2P is they don't want to pay, the idea that it acts as an extended trial is a laugh. I am sure you are right for some players but do you seriously think the baulk of F2P players are considering if they want to pay? It is well known that only the minority in a free to play MMO actually pay anything, so I have no idea how you could have come to that conclusion. I have to say Shari that you seem to be a whale, or a whale in the making, maybe that's why you think spending in a F2P MMO is the norm?
Hang on...I see it now, there are no people on benefits, I was brainwashed by the media all along, thanks Shari!
Nobody is owed a free game, if a game that is free does well then it will thrive as has been mentioned. But you are not somehow entitled to a free ride.
If you want examples of people who have been asking for games to be free look no further than the whinging about every MMO that comes out (few as they are now) that is P2P. This site has its share, so it shouldn't be that hard.
I don't complain when subscription games come out, but I can honestly say that I doubt I'll ever pay a subscription again. The game would have to be some kind of genre defining incredible gem to even get me to consider it at this point. I guess I'm part of the "tiny minority" that spends money on f2p games I enjoy, and all my friends who play them just happen to be part of that same "tiny minority". I don't like the subscription model, I don't enjoy the hassle of closing and re-opening subscriptions when I game hop or take a break from gaming. I didn't like it back when hosting and server costs justified it, and I really don't like it now that they don't. I also believe that an active player has enough value to the company that even if they spend nothing in a cash shop asking for a subscription is insulting. I don't like being sold a product(box price) and then being told it's actually a service. I look at the value I got from Guild Wars for my dollars spent and judge each and every new game that comes out by that standard. I'm not going to scream at developers for not catering to me, or say stupid things like "this game uses my favorite payment method and by virtue of that is automatically good, unlike your games which are all bad". I'm just going to keep playing games I enjoy and voting with my wallet. At this point in my life, I work, I make good money, I don't lack anything I need, and I buy what I want. All a game developer has to do to get me to buy a subscription is make something that I actually think is worth giving them $135 or more to play for 6 months. Maybe some day a game developer will make me a subscription MMO that will give more fun for my dollar than the free to play ones are and get me to change my mind, but I doubt it.
Why is it a bubble if there are enough whales to sustain the market? Of course nothing last forever, but is p2p a "bubble" when it lasted for more than a decade?
Do you think p2w is going to collapse in a year or even two?
There is no reason for an MMORPG to have a sub fee at this point. The cost of servers and bandwidth just aren't high enough and the games don't have more dev work than other genre of games with persistent content. A MMORPG doesn't work any differently than a FPS, RTS or aRPG at this point.
If they want to charge for new content you do it with either small expansions like TSW or big ones like WoW.
Sub fees provide a huge barrier to players at this point because of how full the market is. I'm not going to play just one game at a time anymore like in the old days and I'm not spending $15 on a game that eats up 1/3 of my playing time when all the other games are free.
The only way sub fees will survive is to move to the Eve/Wildstar system of being able to spend in game currency to pay your sub. That or charging them for a few months before going B2P later. Actually they could also reduce them to like $5 a month so people could get $15/month out of 3 games, I could see that working. The current model is on its death bed though.
I agree OP. Some development teams have an admirable diet plan going and we players should be paid to play the resulting crap games they have "produced" out of their butt these days...
It's a new acronym PM2P. Pay Me to Play.
I spent $0 on my 40+ hours played in Hearthstone, much cheaper than $0.30/hr. Also the normal player does not see your results. The normal casual player is gaming something like 50 hours a month and they are playing 3 or 4 games. They probably devoted more like 15 hours into their MMORPG on the month so it was $1/hr. That is still cheap but it isn't straight up about the cost. What if all 4 games charged like that? Suddenly you are spending $60 per month not counting the cost to buy the game, the cost of expansions etc.
The market just is not in a place that is going to allow the current sub fee to thrive. That is why so many games are working around it at this point.
no, I'm not. D3 has added more new content since it was released than WOW does between expansions. PoE has added more to their game in the past year than WoW has as well. FPS tend to go with a pay per content model but they put stuff out as fast as a normal MMORPG albeit with fewer patches.
SC2 added more new content before its expansion than WoW has between any 2 expansions.
You are falling into the myth that mmorpg add content at a fast pace which generally just isn't true anymore, at least not those that go with an expansion style format.
I actually really loved the original Guild Wars' model of B2P. That was a -real- B2P. Content updates came in the form of frequent box expansions. So if you actually wanted to enjoy that content they spent time developing, you paid for it. If not, then you didn't just pay 5 months worth of subscription to not even benefit from whatever content they implemented.
It was almost like a cash shop, but they developed real content, not this stupid vanity shit or balance-breaking items. They just opened up new worlds/classes, rather than letting you just buy everything.
The other benefit of this, is that once a company stops actively supporting a game, you don't have to pay a dime more.
Sadly, no one else has done a model like this, and even ANet decided it wasn't good enough for them to continue, for whatever reason.
And don't forget DLCs .. those are done a lot faster than MMO content.
I am fan of P2P and B2P. Because I am a fan of funding. More funding equals a better chance at quality, though there are no guarantees.
I do feel a huge amount of MMO budgets are spent trying to make MMOs live up to solo game standards. The perfectly polished launch, because MMOs don't get updates you know, they have to be perfect. The top end graphics, when trying to compete with a solo game is like riding through a swamp of lag and expecting to keep up with a solo game on dry land. Voice acting, solo games have it so MMOs must have it and so on.