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Large scale zerg PvP?
Kuinn
Member UncommonPosts: 2,072
So again the new game is coming with large scale PvP, and the zerg this zerg that whines are echoing left and right.
My question is, what do you expect large scale PvP to be? I mean, I feel like it is supposed to be large groups of people clashing, most of the time the winner is determined by sheer numbers and determination, sometimes the smaller party might win if they happen to have someone leading them and/or have more "big guns".
Why does people start whining when they see footage of large armies colliding and sweeping over eachothers? If large scale PvP is not supposed to be big groups of people running into eachother and battling it out then what the hell is it supposed to be?
Large scale medieval/fantasy battles just happens to be "zerging" most of the time, and no one is preventing anyone from using actual tactics, which simply leads into smaller zergs coming from different angles.
Comments
I think most of them expect disciplined strategy with a general calling the shots and his LT's picking up the slack while interpreting his orders. Trouble is, a large group of undisciplined and untrained people is called a mob and that is exactly what a zerg is. Only the large and disciplined guilds will be any different and not all of them will manage it
The problem is obviously not with the game. The problem is with lazy players who just expect organization and discipline to happen by itself with no effort on their part. The fact is, you would be extremely lucky if you could get organization and discipline out of a PUG group. To expect otherwise is just foolish and will only add to your frustration. Join a good guild or take the time and effort to organize and lead people. It's a bitch to lead a large group of people, that's for sure. Worse than herding cats. But it would take people like that in this game to make it into more than just random zerg fests. If I were designing this game, I would have built tools into the game to help with this. Convenient Organization tools is pretty much the one thing missing in all MMOs.
Organization is the key and I liked one thing in particular that DAoC did really well: "Alliances" but that would be confusing here.,..we need a new name.
It was a group of guilds that joined together in a server and there was a separate alliance chat. The alliance leader (one of the guild leaders) could set permissions for chatting. Normally all guild members of the guilds in an alliance could read the chat but only officers of the guilds could chat.
Although it was used as a social tool a bit, its main purpose was to coordinate large groups. I saw instances of 500+ people working together in an organized fashion using that system.
And yes, I've already suggested that to Zenimax using feedback.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I expected
- meaningful PvP progression
- a not terrible combat system
- real PvP (killing real players) and not PvDoor PvEmptyKeeps
- having the option to PvP competitively (like DAoC's 8v8) or casually (zerg vs zerg)
- zone-wide kill spam
- realm pride
Sadly ESO has none of those
DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann
Agreed, pretty lousy version of what DAOC was.
Well, the problem is with the game if the best strategy is the lazy player's strategy.
Sadly, this has been true in many large scale PvP games. GW2 is an example. There simply isn't any strategy more efficient than piling everyone into a giant group a running from keep to keep as fast as possible. There isn't a counter strategy because a smaller group will always lose to a larger one. Splitting off into fragments just makes the smaller armies vulnerable to the zerg, which can cross the entire map in a few minutes.
I think in TESO this is not the case. The distance between keeps alone keeps the zerg from being efficient. Other game mechanics take away other advantages of the zerg. Keep linking for example makes it possible to cut the zerg off from reinforcements coming to help. Resurrection having a cost makes the zerg not immortal. Massive area-of-effect damage from fire ballistas gives smaller groups a way to counter-act being outnumbered during a keep's defense.
I fixed your false, blanket assertion above with a simple word. An organized smaller group can eat a larger disorganized group for breakfast. I've seen it plenty of times before in REAL RvR games. And when I say SMALL, I don't mean these tiny 8 man groups that certain people with a God-complex expect to take on a whole army. I'm talking like 30-50 people vs. 100. I can't speak for GW2, on the other hand, since their death penalty is way too pitifully lenient which has the side effect of zergs staying on their feet longer than they deserve.
Guild will be more motivated to take down keeps in a disciplined way due to the reason of keeping one keep for the guild. Although, there is also a strategy of picking out people one by one like this archer/nightblade: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-97mrfaqdw or this guy
SOLA - www.solaguild.com
(christian guild. Being christian is not required for membership though)
I can't understand why people judge a game in Beta - against games that developed to their "final" state...after years!!!
DAoC at release had pretty much nothing - what was there was barely working. I loved DAoC (go MLF) Overlord/Bigoleed BTW ...ahemm. I played this shit so hard like many others because it was fun to get those "1v1 or 2v2 or 1v2 fights - the rush - the thrill where your skill/choices/strat made a difference. Remember the issues at release - "perma CC/Mez" / no real end game armor - almost used same skins?
For PvPers - Zerg doesn't matter - it will always be there. The Zerg is for the PvEers to participate in PvP.
For PvPers - good fights/mechanics/balance and strats that pay off. Whether that be through small group/solo tactics and "good, challenging fights".
Frankly I have morphed into a guy that likes to solo/small PvP. I can't really stand the "masses" whether it be Raid PvE or Zerg PvP. But, I have nothing against them - except when they complain about PvP rewards!!! I'll jump in and help the Zerg in ways I can by scouting, picking off reinforcements or causing general mayhem.
As for ESO PvP.....
I see lots of small group possibilities and solo game play possibilities for ESO PvP. It is not that hard to imagine --- catch people doing quests in PvP zone - its huge and it's endgame with some PvEish" content/camps Small group stealth/tactics taking on stragglers or other small groups casue they aren't paying much attention just zerging about!
If you needed to be rewarded for everything you do - I don't know what to tell ya - I personally don't see much sense in playing something where you do not enjoy the game play experience. PvP should be all about the challenge of a NON-AI encounter - everything else that doesn't impact that....is BONUS.
Disclaimer : I've played some beta to lvl 18 and I have pre-ordered.
You fixed NOTHING because my example was of GW2. In GW2 a small organized group would get destroyed by a big disorganied group. That was the flaw with GW2. I think AoC and Shadowbane both had this problem too. Some games, I think DaoC, dont have this problem.
And in fact, my point was that TESO won't have this problem because, as I say, there are mechanics that allow smaller teams to gain advantage.
In GW2 you can be 30-50 ppl taking out 100 man zerg if you have a good commander.
If you run straight against 100ppl and you are only 30 then you will most likly die, this is the case in every game.
And if the distances are larger in ESO then sure it will be harder to catch up with your own zerg then on a smaller map, how ever in GW2 your own zerg will usually go down when they are very far away from there own keep and then the penalty that you say is to weak will be savere when ppl start to die.
Its not true that you respawn in GW2 and then 1 min later you have catched up with your zerg, usually you don't catch up with them cause they are to far away and you and 3 others will never make it the whole way there.
To many say that guildwars is just a zergfest with no tatics and thats not true and if you played it like that then your in a group with alot of noobs.
Another false is that a smaller group never wins against the mightiest zerg and thats not true at all maybe if the smaller group fights the big zerg in open combat then they will die like I said before, but defending a keep I did just today with 10-15 men against 70-100 enemys and they didn't stand a chance.
Sure I am not gonna say that we killed them all and won but they couldn't get in the keep because we used arrowcarts, and placed our selves in postions that gave us an upper hand and in the end they had to give up on our keep.
ESO will be the same and it really doesn't matter as long as your all having fun and I hope you will.
// Beelze
Let me explain it to you then. In the past many years, MMO's have had alphas and betas with serious flaws, but those flaws were never addressed in release even though they were reported ad-nauseum by the testers.
People who do a lot of alpha testing and beta testing have seen this over and over and over, and have become quite cynical about the ability of a game company to make significant changes after beta.
I played HOD and we won 35 for 35 before the alliance broke up. Trust me, it was tactic-free zerging 24x7.
it will be a shame not to see either of you highly regarded pvp specialist in game ... I'm going to try and hone my lackluster skills in this zerg warfare game and perhaps someday cross swords with either you outside of the forums
I get that - it is just not a rational position as you can't change it.
I like the critical thinking of MMOers but they all seem to live in a fantasy world!! (and that's a joke)
Well, I'm glad you at least recognize that good strategy is viable in SOME RvR type games out there. DaoC was of course the father of them all. Everybody else was just a pale imitation by comparison, so far. Shadowbane had some really great and grand ideas as an FFA, it was just HORRIBLY implemented all the way around. I don't know what it is, but the game designers for these FFA type games seem to be a bunch of amateurs when it comes to producing a quality product.
Larger map = more opportunities for smaller teams. It's as simple as that. I don't know why people are crying about the map being too big, since a smaller map would only turn you into some easy fresh meat for the biggest zerg on the map. The bigger the map, the more places to hide and the more opportunities for guerrilla type tactics. And I still believe that medium organized groups can easily farm the larger disorganized zergs. It's the organized zergs that you have to run from and not take on head-on.
That is exactly why so many people have been asking for some sort of dueling system.
Not everybody is a fan of large-scale battles that have more than 30 players on the screen.
It's always zerg and I like it that way
But adding arenas for 2v2, 3v3, 6v6 with bots, etc would be awesome too
Ryoshi1 as Rikimaru
lol
in the battle of sterling the scott's were more organized and had a battle plan, the English was more of a mindless zerg who got owned
there is small scale pvp in cyrodiil, you don't have to be a part of a huge battle.
In medieval times heavy cavalry was the zerg buster. In braveheart they specifically countered the heavy cavalry.
This is exactly what I'm thinking my self. You cant blame the game if the players are unwilling to get organized. "This is just another game with mindless zerg pvp" that's incredibly stupid thing to say, which I've heard here and there because only the players can decide if they are mindless or not, developers cant code tactics into the brains of the players.
Just saying, because it seems so weird for people to say things like that. It's like saying "the pvp in this game is crap because the players are idiots". Just join organized pvp guilds and stop whining?