Should developers continue to design content for the PvE only player?
Absolutely!
Sis and I are starting our new set of alts on another realm as she's alt capped on Shandris (why I'm not posting as such -- and no that little thread bait/report thread had no effect on me, too busy!), and starting all over again on another realm, I can see that PvE content from <90 *is* more lacking than at end-game now.
When you're basically established on a realm with end-game characters and without wants, the PvE content appears okay as now everything is end-game. But to do everything new again -- guild building/character leveling/tradeskill leveling -- it's like this wasn't the journey like it was before. Leveled skinning to 300 in a few hours, which took days of grinding years ago to do. Tailoring now the only problem is finding enough silk cloth, not that the skill up process is any hurdle itself.
It's like if you already know how to skill up redoing PvE content goes by too fast, as hurdles almost don't exist anymore. For the PvE player the "script" is what is boring, not the play style. PvE content is perfect for those more interested in immersion into a virtual world (compared to the mechanics itself, especially fight mechanics), yet if the script is old it no longer feels entertaining, the play style becomes a chore.
Content for PvE is more than just more instances, it's fixing the problems with PvE content. If pacing is off, it'll bore a player to where they're but PvPing for content (which is what I do when bored of PvE content).
Bring back tradeskills that matter, and the feel that they're important to do for character development, not just a mini-game at "end-game" would be a great start!
It's more like the OP want to design mmorpg so pvp players can gank players that want to do pve at that time.
Oh there's a dragon out there I want to kill... Oh wait I can't, I have to pvp.
That's the thing with pve/pvp mixed game. I like both pve and pvp. But "sometimes" I just want to pve, but I can't because I have to pvp.
For me it comes back to the principle that your rights end where they start to infringe on someone else's. People buy games with the intent of having fun, but your purchased right to have fun only extends to the point where you can do so without infringing other people's fun. If one group of players is given the ability to act in a manner which directly causes the game to be less fun for another group of players, the second group is probably going to end up leaving the game, which means the company no longer gets that revenue stream. This is why most games go with an opt-in approach to PvP, where somebody has to affirmatively choose (separate from the choice to play the game) to engage in confrontational content. At that point, there is no infringement because everyone who gets killed made the specific choice to risk that possibility.
I still say the best way to handle PvP is FFA with an extremely harsh in game punishment system for "bad" killing, but as far as simple approaches go, it seems pretty clear that optional PvP systems work better and attract larger audiences than completely unrestricted FFA PvP.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
I believe that MMORPGs as a genre is best approached with a PvE attitude. that is not saying there cannot be a PvP component but the MMORPG and PvE are pretty much designed to work together.
FPS that is the PvP arena where reflexes and tactics can be used to full effect. PvPers should be working more to make this genre adopt some mmorpg aspects to enrich their gaming experience. As it is already closerr to their ideal than a MMORPG based project ever will be.
Should developers continue to design content for the PvE only player?
I don't think they should. The PvE only player is the creative roadblock in mmorpg design. From resource gathering to trade, to territory control, they have all been designed, governed or gutted by the demands of the PvE only player.
There can be no transit of commerce because of the PvE only player. Social systems are left without politics because of the PvE only player. Wealth creation systems are designed with the PvE only player in mind. This way of developing mmorpgs has lead to the creation of sterile worlds, lacking consequence.
Developing mmorpgs for the pvp/pve player will allow for the creation of any and all systems. Systems that can then be smoothed for balance with moderation in mind for the majority of players.
I have a dream that one day, pve and pvp will be things of the past! Tha... I'll stop here.
want my honest opinion? probably not but ill give it to you anyway stop putting pvp in my mmorpg and go back to call duty bro.
Developing mmorpgs for the pvp/pve player will allow for the creation of any and all systems. Systems that can then be smoothed for balance with moderation in mind for the majority of players.
........ Or it can lead to a muddled mess as Developers struggle to find a way to resolve often incompatible play styles and make and support well a wide variety of divergent play styles with a limited set of resources to apply toward each.
There is an axiom in Application Development, the broader and more divergent the scope of your project the more likely it is to fail and the more resources you will require to have a chance at making it work.
I'm not saying that it's impossible to make the sort of game you want, just that is a LOT more difficult. As a result, the vast majority of Developers that take on such a project will end up with a game that is a steaming pile.
Nor is it actualy neccesary, because a very large number of gamers have no need or desire to mix the two play styles within the same product. Even if they enjoy both play styles, often it's very desirable for them to satisfy them in SEPERATE products.
For example... I enjoy PvP in FPS or turn based strategy games. I have absolutely no desire to experience it in MMO's, save those few like Planetside2 or WWII Online that actualy play like FPS games and where that is the clear focus of the game. It's actualy undesirable for me to have PvP in an MMO. When I play MMO's I'm looking for an entirely different experience.
By the same token, I enjoy hunting in real life and I enjoy playing softball. I have no need to pick up a shotgun and shoot pheasants while I'm running down fly balls in a softball game.
Developing mmorpgs for the pvp/pve player will allow for the creation of any and all systems. Systems that can then be smoothed for balance with moderation in mind for the majority of players.
........ Or it can lead to a muddled mess as Developers struggle to find a way to resolve often incompatible play styles and make and support well a wide variety of divergent play styles with a limited set of resources to apply toward each.
I agree. There is no need to have both play style in the same game. People can play different games.
That is also why MOBAs, and pvp-only games are popular .. there is no compromise.
Originally posted by kitarad I do not think you can point to a game like League of Legends and say that the popularity of a MOBA type game illustrates that people want more PvP than PvE. The reason for this is that in MoBA games a match has no lasting impact on your character. You are not looted or diminished ,what you earn is spent in the match itself when you buy the gear with what you earn in that match and you walk away able to participate again with little to no consequences to losing.In an MMORPG you are investing hours and hours of time building up your character and if someone kills and loots you, you are losing something of value that an ordinary PvE player places value on. I must emphasize the word ordinary meaning a normal player places a value on what they do to build up their character. If you personally have no attachment does not mean every other PvE players has no such attachment. It is this attachment that causes PvE players to balk at being killed in a PvP game . Many find this sentiment to pixels difficult to understand but if you spend time and effort gathering resources building and maintaining your character that effort is what makes up a majority of a PvE player's satisfaction and motivation in the game. You cannot put a value or measure it individually but collectively PvE players place a great deal of emphasis on growth of their characters and it does not in many cases stand up to being destroyed by some slaphappy PvP player bent on destroying those hard worn items.Silly perhaps but different people play games for different reasons and you absolutely cannot force one type of style on another unless you want a recipe for failure.
This is a superb point. There is a big distinction about the "consequences" in PvP in these 2 similar, yet quite different genres.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by kitarad I do not think you can point to a game like League of Legends and say that the popularity of a MOBA type game illustrates that people want more PvP than PvE. The reason for this is that in MoBA games a match has no lasting impact on your character. You are not looted or diminished ,what you earn is spent in the match itself when you buy the gear with what you earn in that match and you walk away able to participate again with little to no consequences to losing.
In an MMORPG you are investing hours and hours of time building up your character and if someone kills and loots you, you are losing something of value that an ordinary PvE player places value on. I must emphasize the word ordinary meaning a normal player places a value on what they do to build up their character. If you personally have no attachment does not mean every other PvE players has no such attachment. It is this attachment that causes PvE players to balk at being killed in a PvP game . Many find this sentiment to pixels difficult to understand but if you spend time and effort gathering resources building and maintaining your character that effort is what makes up a majority of a PvE player's satisfaction and motivation in the game. You cannot put a value or measure it individually but collectively PvE players place a great deal of emphasis on growth of their characters and it does not in many cases stand up to being destroyed by some slaphappy PvP player bent on destroying those hard worn items.Silly perhaps but different people play games for different reasons and you absolutely cannot force one type of style on another unless you want a recipe for failure.
This is a superb point. There is a big distinction about the "consequences" in PvP in these 2 similar, yet quite different genres.
It's because it's a different genre that it works. The basic element in either is how the game "moves forward" much like a movie. There has to be an underlying reason that either motivates or propels the player to participate in in an activity, whether it be a quest, PvP, PvE or anything else. If you take an mmo and just simply insert PvP, then what is the reason for it being there and what does it do to involve the player in it? Being in a town and simply killing off every new player in a starting town isn't either fun nor a start to a great game.
Typically a developer can get around this making it PvE and the empire is the equivalent of being a "safety zone" at it's core but the border is where the PvP occurs in the form of PvE. Otherwise just implementing PvP in an mmo has to take a lot of underlying dynamics to make it work in general if it's integrated into the game as an essential feature of the game (like EvE) or it has to be treated as a secondary "optional treat" not used by all (ie. FF14).
EvE has some luxuries on it's end as it creates player corporations that can act as an entity of its own and, thus, act less so as a PvE and more as just tons of players versus players. I think the presence of "outlaws" with wanted posters also lets you pan out a PvP if you wanted to but you still get restrictions on how it works.
If this sh*t were frankly simple, I think more developers would use it but with any mmo we already have tons of sh*t that the focus and "features" being developed probably drives PvP as something integrated into the game but not something that drives the game forward.
I do play those games... I support them on kickstarter and Greenlight... until they give in and start catering to the vocal minority carebears on the forums, or the evidence of their developer/admin corruption comes to light. The truth is these FFA sandbox games do fine, and make a small profit. Then after awhile they give in to greed, and try to change their vision. Then the game dies.
Nothing you said holds any weight. There are burger joints that Are not McDonalds, but they don't just shut their doors because they don't sell as many burgers as McDonalds. So in fact there ARE thousands of games you want to play, and we PVP sandbox players knowingly have a niche market, but you peopel come in here and tell us that Niche games aren't allowed, and they have to cater to the lowest common denominator or they won't see WoW's success. Know what? I'm guessing small indy developers don't really care to EVER hit WoW numberss. most of them are doing it because they want a game that THEY and other people like them can enjoy. That's the reality of this. you have thousands of games to play, but you are coming in here to tell us how we should not play a game because it belongs to a genre that you admittedly don't even like...
AAA Developer Shills doing that they get paid to do. Keeping the industry on that formula track...
no thanks to PVP/PVE interdependency because why would i want to help this guy and players like him? PVPers who insult PVE'rs at every turn and you wonder why PVE only players don't want to play with you and want their own game.
when people like this get off their this ego trip because they kill other players pixels in a video game maybe then you can have you PVP/PVE interdependency. until then keep the playstyles completely separate.
Developing mmorpgs for the pvp/pve player will allow for the creation of any and all systems. Systems that can then be smoothed for balance with moderation in mind for the majority of players.
........ Or it can lead to a muddled mess as Developers struggle to find a way to resolve often incompatible play styles and make and support well a wide variety of divergent play styles with a limited set of resources to apply toward each.
I agree. There is no need to have both play style in the same game. People can play different games.
That is also why MOBAs, and pvp-only games are popular .. there is no compromise.
I think the problem with compromise in video games is that developers do half of one thing, then half of another thing and call it a whole thing, when it's really not. It's just two half things so players often get half of something instead of a whole game.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by bcbully Developing mmorpgs for the pvp/pve player will allow for the creation of any and all systems. Systems that can then be smoothed for balance with moderation in mind for the majority of players.
........ Or it can lead to a muddled mess as Developers struggle to find a way to resolve often incompatible play styles and make and support well a wide variety of divergent play styles with a limited set of resources to apply toward each.
I agree. There is no need to have both play style in the same game. People can play different games.That is also why MOBAs, and pvp-only games are popular .. there is no compromise.
I think the problem with compromise in video games is that developers do half of one thing, then half of another thing and call it a whole thing, when it's really not. It's just two half things so players often get half of something instead of a whole game.
Agreed. Then they throw in other features and the percentage goes further down with each one being "compromised" in. I'd really to like see MMOs STOP trying to please everyone...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Right, I mean I get the economics of why a company would want to have a single product that they could sell to so many different audiences. However, MMO Developers seem to be rather unique in having the hubris in thinking they can achieve that to good effect. You don't see too many floor wax developers thinking they could make thier product into a refreshing soft drink which they could sell to that audience as well.
Should developers continue to design content for the PvE only player?
I don't think they should. The PvE only player is the creative roadblock in mmorpg design. From resource gathering to trade, to territory control, they have all been designed, governed or gutted by the demands of the PvE only player.
There can be no transit of commerce because of the PvE only player. Social systems are left without politics because of the PvE only player. Wealth creation systems are designed with the PvE only player in mind. This way of developing mmorpgs has lead to the creation of sterile worlds, lacking consequence.
Developing mmorpgs for the pvp/pve player will allow for the creation of any and all systems. Systems that can then be smoothed for balance with moderation in mind for the majority of players.
I have a dream that one day, pve and pvp will be things of the past! Tha... I'll stop here.
could not disagree more.
Look most MMOs worlds are based on real life. In that you do a job, you get paid, you trade items etc.
Real life is not a pvp game. It is on a larger scale but for the most part real life is about co-op.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2 Right, I mean I get the economics of why a company would want to have a single product that they could sell to so many different audiences. However, MMO Developers seem to be rather unique in having the hubris in thinking they can achieve that to good effect. You don't see too many floor wax developers thinking they could make thier product into a refreshing soft drink which they could sell to that audience as well.
MMO devs are selling rewards not floor wax. That's why.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
TruthXHurts has SO many pearls of fallacy on this forum, I'd like to tackle the major ones to *stupidly* try to bring some sort of sense to this topic as to why "we can't have nice things because of the PvE Only Player".
"Why does it bother you that SOME games don't cater directly to you? Are you so entitled that you don't think a game has a right to exist unless it's marketed toward you? Get a grip and go play one of the thousands of PVE games already on the market and stop trying to poison the well of sandbox gaming." This is not congruent with "Why do you consider it a direct attack on you if a game is made that doesn't fit your exact playstyle? I can't begin to tell you how entitled you sound." We find this to be a fallacy because the very thing you are arguing is that your prefered FFAPvP playstyle isn't being catered to. So much so, you honestly posted that people are paid to get on forums and "quiet the demand" for more sandbox FFA (all tens of the demand). Also, and this may be hard because your hubris won't let you see it, but you, yourself, sound very entitled.
This "I actually am a bandit. I go after single targets usually who are gathering. Do I kill for fun? Of course not... What's the point? Will I wait in the bushes watching you for 20 minutes till you are done mining and hopefully a bit encumbered and take full tactical advantage of your unguarded serfs? You bet your sweet bippy I will. A sheep that cries when wolf eats eat should have stayed closer to the flock." is not really congruent with "The only asshats I see are the ones who join a game with a pvp ruleset then cry on forums when someone kills their flower pickin hippy ass. Those are the true asshats who clearly have some sort of emotional problems or just want to cause problems for sandbox gaming in general." This is a fallacy because you, yourself, sound like the very asshat various people have mentioned in terms of why PvP just doesn't work. You turn around and call the people that don't share your mindset the asshats. Pretty brave card for you to play, dewd.
Also, Truth uses the term "carebears" quite often. When they said, "Do I kill for fun? Of course not... What's the point?"- just know, I call bullshit. You do kill, and you do do it for fun, that's why you play those types of games- to kill people, and to have fun doing it. Surely it's not to farm, or immerse yourself in the lore and do quests- that's... what's that new fangled term? PvE, correct? I honestly do not believe that you have waited in the bushes for 20 minutes whilst people mine to take "full tactical advantage on their unguarded serfs" without having an ounce of fun- if you didn't, you wouldn't play that game.
Also of note, I entirely agree- if someone logs into a FFAPvP game, they need to be hip to the terms and conditions. Honestly, I think people should be aware of these for every game they play.
As mentioned, the reason PvP is the way it is, currently, is because of people like TruthXHurts, and to some degree, yourself, OP. If PvE'ers don't want PvP, they won't PvP. If they're in a game that only houses PvP, and whine when they die, that's literally on them, and their opinion should, in no way, effect the game your playing- it's perpetually impossible to ruin your game if you're the one that killed them. I don't understand how PvE players are the reason that PvP players can't have the game they want- there's quite a few PvPcentric online games to play.
But blaming a group of people that aren't even directly involved with the type of playstyle you prefer and want to see more of, and calling them things like "carebears" and saying they "qq moar" (not saying the OP or anyone else did it, this is just the mindset for the typical PvPer- no wonder people don't want to play with these guys) when they are killed just.... well, look no further than a mirror if you have to wonder why you can't have "nice" things.
TL;DR- People are the reason PvP isn't as good as it could be. People suck. All of us. Between hackers, BM'ers, Elitest, and just genuinely all around disagreeable human beings, people are the reason PvP doesn't work. Not PvE'rs who literally could not care less if you like to PvP.
Worst Online Communities: WoW/WoD(the OG MMO Trolls), DayZ/WarZ, SMITE/LoL/DOTA, EVE Online, APB "Im ready for All the comparisons I think its dumb and its embarrassing Im switching off No longer listening Ive had enough of persecution and conditioning Maybe its instinct- Were only animal" - Lily Allen, Sheezus
TruthXHurts has SO many pearls of fallacy on this forum, I'd like to tackle the major ones to *stupidly* try to bring some sort of sense to this topic as to why "we can't have nice things because of the PvE Only Player".
"Why does it bother you that SOME games don't cater directly to you? Are you so entitled that you don't think a game has a right to exist unless it's marketed toward you? Get a grip and go play one of the thousands of PVE games already on the market and stop trying to poison the well of sandbox gaming." This is not congruent with "Why do you consider it a direct attack on you if a game is made that doesn't fit your exact playstyle? I can't begin to tell you how entitled you sound." We find this to be a fallacy because the very thing you are arguing is that your prefered FFAPvP playstyle isn't being catered to. So much so, you honestly posted that people are paid to get on forums and "quiet the demand" for more sandbox FFA (all tens of the demand). Also, and this may be hard because your hubris won't let you see it, but you, yourself, sound very entitled.
This "I actually am a bandit. I go after single targets usually who are gathering. Do I kill for fun? Of course not... What's the point? Will I wait in the bushes watching you for 20 minutes till you are done mining and hopefully a bit encumbered and take full tactical advantage of your unguarded serfs? You bet your sweet bippy I will. A sheep that cries when wolf eats eat should have stayed closer to the flock." is not really congruent with "The only asshats I see are the ones who join a game with a pvp ruleset then cry on forums when someone kills their flower pickin hippy ass. Those are the true asshats who clearly have some sort of emotional problems or just want to cause problems for sandbox gaming in general." This is a fallacy because you, yourself, sound like the very asshat various people have mentioned in terms of why PvP just doesn't work. You turn around and call the people that don't share your mindset the asshats. Pretty brave card for you to play, dewd.
Also, Truth uses the term "carebears" quite often. When they said, "Do I kill for fun? Of course not... What's the point?"- just know, I call bullshit. You do kill, and you do do it for fun, that's why you play those types of games- to kill people, and to have fun doing it. Surely it's not to farm, or immerse yourself in the lore and do quests- that's... what's that new fangled term? PvE, correct? I honestly do not believe that you have waited in the bushes for 20 minutes whilst people mine to take "full tactical advantage on their unguarded serfs" without having an ounce of fun- if you didn't, you wouldn't play that game.
Also of note, I entirely agree- if someone logs into a FFAPvP game, they need to be hip to the terms and conditions. Honestly, I think people should be aware of these for every game they play.
As mentioned, the reason PvP is the way it is, currently, is because of people like TruthXHurts, and to some degree, yourself, OP. If PvE'ers don't want PvP, they won't PvP. If they're in a game that only houses PvP, and whine when they die, that's literally on them, and their opinion should, in no way, effect the game your playing- it's perpetually impossible to ruin your game if you're the one that killed them. I don't understand how PvE players are the reason that PvP players can't have the game they want- there's quite a few PvPcentric online games to play.
But blaming a group of people that aren't even directly involved with the type of playstyle you prefer and want to see more of, and calling them things like "carebears" and saying they "qq moar" (not saying the OP or anyone else did it, this is just the mindset for the typical PvPer- no wonder people don't want to play with these guys) when they are killed just.... well, look no further than a mirror if you have to wonder why you can't have "nice" things.
TL;DR- People are the reason PvP isn't as good as it could be. People suck. All of us. Between hackers, BM'ers, Elitest, and just genuinely all around disagreeable human beings, people are the reason PvP doesn't work. Not PvE'rs who literally could not care less if you like to PvP.
...Here endeth the lesson.
PVE and progression are to prepare you for PVP.
Progression isn't a game.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
TruthXHurts has SO many pearls of fallacy on this forum, I'd like to tackle the major ones to *stupidly* try to bring some sort of sense to this topic as to why "we can't have nice things because of the PvE Only Player".
"Why does it bother you that SOME games don't cater directly to you? Are you so entitled that you don't think a game has a right to exist unless it's marketed toward you? Get a grip and go play one of the thousands of PVE games already on the market and stop trying to poison the well of sandbox gaming." This is not congruent with "Why do you consider it a direct attack on you if a game is made that doesn't fit your exact playstyle? I can't begin to tell you how entitled you sound." We find this to be a fallacy because the very thing you are arguing is that your prefered FFAPvP playstyle isn't being catered to. So much so, you honestly posted that people are paid to get on forums and "quiet the demand" for more sandbox FFA (all tens of the demand). Also, and this may be hard because your hubris won't let you see it, but you, yourself, sound very entitled.
This "I actually am a bandit. I go after single targets usually who are gathering. Do I kill for fun? Of course not... What's the point? Will I wait in the bushes watching you for 20 minutes till you are done mining and hopefully a bit encumbered and take full tactical advantage of your unguarded serfs? You bet your sweet bippy I will. A sheep that cries when wolf eats eat should have stayed closer to the flock." is not really congruent with "The only asshats I see are the ones who join a game with a pvp ruleset then cry on forums when someone kills their flower pickin hippy ass. Those are the true asshats who clearly have some sort of emotional problems or just want to cause problems for sandbox gaming in general." This is a fallacy because you, yourself, sound like the very asshat various people have mentioned in terms of why PvP just doesn't work. You turn around and call the people that don't share your mindset the asshats. Pretty brave card for you to play, dewd.
Also, Truth uses the term "carebears" quite often. When they said, "Do I kill for fun? Of course not... What's the point?"- just know, I call bullshit. You do kill, and you do do it for fun, that's why you play those types of games- to kill people, and to have fun doing it. Surely it's not to farm, or immerse yourself in the lore and do quests- that's... what's that new fangled term? PvE, correct? I honestly do not believe that you have waited in the bushes for 20 minutes whilst people mine to take "full tactical advantage on their unguarded serfs" without having an ounce of fun- if you didn't, you wouldn't play that game.
Also of note, I entirely agree- if someone logs into a FFAPvP game, they need to be hip to the terms and conditions. Honestly, I think people should be aware of these for every game they play.
As mentioned, the reason PvP is the way it is, currently, is because of people like TruthXHurts, and to some degree, yourself, OP. If PvE'ers don't want PvP, they won't PvP. If they're in a game that only houses PvP, and whine when they die, that's literally on them, and their opinion should, in no way, effect the game your playing- it's perpetually impossible to ruin your game if you're the one that killed them. I don't understand how PvE players are the reason that PvP players can't have the game they want- there's quite a few PvPcentric online games to play.
But blaming a group of people that aren't even directly involved with the type of playstyle you prefer and want to see more of, and calling them things like "carebears" and saying they "qq moar" (not saying the OP or anyone else did it, this is just the mindset for the typical PvPer- no wonder people don't want to play with these guys) when they are killed just.... well, look no further than a mirror if you have to wonder why you can't have "nice" things.
TL;DR- People are the reason PvP isn't as good as it could be. People suck. All of us. Between hackers, BM'ers, Elitest, and just genuinely all around disagreeable human beings, people are the reason PvP doesn't work. Not PvE'rs who literally could not care less if you like to PvP.
...Here endeth the lesson.
PVE and progression are to prepare you for PVP.
Progression isn't a game.
An idiot grenade just went off, and I do not have the equipment for the Collateral Moronic Damage that transpired. PvE does not prepare you for the BM'ing and CampBearing that goes on in PvP... PvP usually has different sets of armor, different tactics needed... I'm just gonna back out of the conversation now... I'll let you guys get back to being nudnicks. Have fun!
Worst Online Communities: WoW/WoD(the OG MMO Trolls), DayZ/WarZ, SMITE/LoL/DOTA, EVE Online, APB "Im ready for All the comparisons I think its dumb and its embarrassing Im switching off No longer listening Ive had enough of persecution and conditioning Maybe its instinct- Were only animal" - Lily Allen, Sheezus
Originally posted by FinalFikus PVE and progression are to prepare you for PVP.Progression isn't a game.
According to who? You? I disagree. The journey, ie: progression, IS the game, for me.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
TruthXHurts has SO many pearls of fallacy on this forum, I'd like to tackle the major ones to *stupidly* try to bring some sort of sense to this topic as to why "we can't have nice things because of the PvE Only Player".
"Why does it bother you that SOME games don't cater directly to you? Are you so entitled that you don't think a game has a right to exist unless it's marketed toward you? Get a grip and go play one of the thousands of PVE games already on the market and stop trying to poison the well of sandbox gaming." This is not congruent with "Why do you consider it a direct attack on you if a game is made that doesn't fit your exact playstyle? I can't begin to tell you how entitled you sound." We find this to be a fallacy because the very thing you are arguing is that your prefered FFAPvP playstyle isn't being catered to. So much so, you honestly posted that people are paid to get on forums and "quiet the demand" for more sandbox FFA (all tens of the demand). Also, and this may be hard because your hubris won't let you see it, but you, yourself, sound very entitled.
This "I actually am a bandit. I go after single targets usually who are gathering. Do I kill for fun? Of course not... What's the point? Will I wait in the bushes watching you for 20 minutes till you are done mining and hopefully a bit encumbered and take full tactical advantage of your unguarded serfs? You bet your sweet bippy I will. A sheep that cries when wolf eats eat should have stayed closer to the flock." is not really congruent with "The only asshats I see are the ones who join a game with a pvp ruleset then cry on forums when someone kills their flower pickin hippy ass. Those are the true asshats who clearly have some sort of emotional problems or just want to cause problems for sandbox gaming in general." This is a fallacy because you, yourself, sound like the very asshat various people have mentioned in terms of why PvP just doesn't work. You turn around and call the people that don't share your mindset the asshats. Pretty brave card for you to play, dewd.
Also, Truth uses the term "carebears" quite often. When they said, "Do I kill for fun? Of course not... What's the point?"- just know, I call bullshit. You do kill, and you do do it for fun, that's why you play those types of games- to kill people, and to have fun doing it. Surely it's not to farm, or immerse yourself in the lore and do quests- that's... what's that new fangled term? PvE, correct? I honestly do not believe that you have waited in the bushes for 20 minutes whilst people mine to take "full tactical advantage on their unguarded serfs" without having an ounce of fun- if you didn't, you wouldn't play that game.
Also of note, I entirely agree- if someone logs into a FFAPvP game, they need to be hip to the terms and conditions. Honestly, I think people should be aware of these for every game they play.
As mentioned, the reason PvP is the way it is, currently, is because of people like TruthXHurts, and to some degree, yourself, OP. If PvE'ers don't want PvP, they won't PvP. If they're in a game that only houses PvP, and whine when they die, that's literally on them, and their opinion should, in no way, effect the game your playing- it's perpetually impossible to ruin your game if you're the one that killed them. I don't understand how PvE players are the reason that PvP players can't have the game they want- there's quite a few PvPcentric online games to play.
But blaming a group of people that aren't even directly involved with the type of playstyle you prefer and want to see more of, and calling them things like "carebears" and saying they "qq moar" (not saying the OP or anyone else did it, this is just the mindset for the typical PvPer- no wonder people don't want to play with these guys) when they are killed just.... well, look no further than a mirror if you have to wonder why you can't have "nice" things.
TL;DR- People are the reason PvP isn't as good as it could be. People suck. All of us. Between hackers, BM'ers, Elitest, and just genuinely all around disagreeable human beings, people are the reason PvP doesn't work. Not PvE'rs who literally could not care less if you like to PvP.
...Here endeth the lesson.
PVE and progression are to prepare you for PVP.
Progression isn't a game.
An idiot grenade just went off, and I do not have the equipment for the Collateral Moronic Damage that transpired. Backing out of the conversation now... I'll let you guys get back to being nudnicks. Have fun!
See ya later then.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Worst Online Communities: WoW/WoD(the OG MMO Trolls), DayZ/WarZ, SMITE/LoL/DOTA, EVE Online, APB "Im ready for All the comparisons I think its dumb and its embarrassing Im switching off No longer listening Ive had enough of persecution and conditioning Maybe its instinct- Were only animal" - Lily Allen, Sheezus
The entire experience is the game. It's not the leveling or the endgame, it's the leveling and the endgame. Not the PvE or the PvP, the PvE and the PvP. That doesn't mean you have to like the entirety of a given game, but not liking part of the game doesn't render it not part of the game.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
Originally posted by CazNeerg The entire experience is the game. It's not the leveling or the endgame, it's the leveling and the endgame. Not the PvE or the PvP, the PvE and the PvP. That doesn't mean you have to like the entirety of a given game, but not liking part of the game doesn't render it not part of the game.
What I love about this post is that it's actually the whole of the argument, and not just one side over the other. PvE does not effect PvP like PvP does not effect PvE (unless you're in a PvPvE instance). If you kill another player in a PvPvE instance- fair game. Other than that, PvE in no way effects PvP. And their parts, individually and entirely, make the sum of the game.
Worst Online Communities: WoW/WoD(the OG MMO Trolls), DayZ/WarZ, SMITE/LoL/DOTA, EVE Online, APB "Im ready for All the comparisons I think its dumb and its embarrassing Im switching off No longer listening Ive had enough of persecution and conditioning Maybe its instinct- Were only animal" - Lily Allen, Sheezus
Comments
Absolutely!
Sis and I are starting our new set of alts on another realm as she's alt capped on Shandris (why I'm not posting as such -- and no that little thread bait/report thread had no effect on me, too busy!), and starting all over again on another realm, I can see that PvE content from <90 *is* more lacking than at end-game now.
When you're basically established on a realm with end-game characters and without wants, the PvE content appears okay as now everything is end-game. But to do everything new again -- guild building/character leveling/tradeskill leveling -- it's like this wasn't the journey like it was before. Leveled skinning to 300 in a few hours, which took days of grinding years ago to do. Tailoring now the only problem is finding enough silk cloth, not that the skill up process is any hurdle itself.
It's like if you already know how to skill up redoing PvE content goes by too fast, as hurdles almost don't exist anymore. For the PvE player the "script" is what is boring, not the play style. PvE content is perfect for those more interested in immersion into a virtual world (compared to the mechanics itself, especially fight mechanics), yet if the script is old it no longer feels entertaining, the play style becomes a chore.
Content for PvE is more than just more instances, it's fixing the problems with PvE content. If pacing is off, it'll bore a player to where they're but PvPing for content (which is what I do when bored of PvE content).
Bring back tradeskills that matter, and the feel that they're important to do for character development, not just a mini-game at "end-game" would be a great start!
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
It's more like the OP want to design mmorpg so pvp players can gank players that want to do pve at that time.
Oh there's a dragon out there I want to kill... Oh wait I can't, I have to pvp.
That's the thing with pve/pvp mixed game. I like both pve and pvp. But "sometimes" I just want to pve, but I can't because I have to pvp.
For me it comes back to the principle that your rights end where they start to infringe on someone else's. People buy games with the intent of having fun, but your purchased right to have fun only extends to the point where you can do so without infringing other people's fun. If one group of players is given the ability to act in a manner which directly causes the game to be less fun for another group of players, the second group is probably going to end up leaving the game, which means the company no longer gets that revenue stream. This is why most games go with an opt-in approach to PvP, where somebody has to affirmatively choose (separate from the choice to play the game) to engage in confrontational content. At that point, there is no infringement because everyone who gets killed made the specific choice to risk that possibility.
I still say the best way to handle PvP is FFA with an extremely harsh in game punishment system for "bad" killing, but as far as simple approaches go, it seems pretty clear that optional PvP systems work better and attract larger audiences than completely unrestricted FFA PvP.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
I believe that MMORPGs as a genre is best approached with a PvE attitude. that is not saying there cannot be a PvP component but the MMORPG and PvE are pretty much designed to work together.
FPS that is the PvP arena where reflexes and tactics can be used to full effect. PvPers should be working more to make this genre adopt some mmorpg aspects to enrich their gaming experience. As it is already closerr to their ideal than a MMORPG based project ever will be.
want my honest opinion? probably not but ill give it to you anyway stop putting pvp in my mmorpg and go back to call duty bro.
........ Or it can lead to a muddled mess as Developers struggle to find a way to resolve often incompatible play styles and make and support well a wide variety of divergent play styles with a limited set of resources to apply toward each.
There is an axiom in Application Development, the broader and more divergent the scope of your project the more likely it is to fail and the more resources you will require to have a chance at making it work.
I'm not saying that it's impossible to make the sort of game you want, just that is a LOT more difficult. As a result, the vast majority of Developers that take on such a project will end up with a game that is a steaming pile.
Nor is it actualy neccesary, because a very large number of gamers have no need or desire to mix the two play styles within the same product. Even if they enjoy both play styles, often it's very desirable for them to satisfy them in SEPERATE products.
For example... I enjoy PvP in FPS or turn based strategy games. I have absolutely no desire to experience it in MMO's, save those few like Planetside2 or WWII Online that actualy play like FPS games and where that is the clear focus of the game. It's actualy undesirable for me to have PvP in an MMO. When I play MMO's I'm looking for an entirely different experience.
By the same token, I enjoy hunting in real life and I enjoy playing softball. I have no need to pick up a shotgun and shoot pheasants while I'm running down fly balls in a softball game.
I agree. There is no need to have both play style in the same game. People can play different games.
That is also why MOBAs, and pvp-only games are popular .. there is no compromise.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
It's because it's a different genre that it works. The basic element in either is how the game "moves forward" much like a movie. There has to be an underlying reason that either motivates or propels the player to participate in in an activity, whether it be a quest, PvP, PvE or anything else. If you take an mmo and just simply insert PvP, then what is the reason for it being there and what does it do to involve the player in it? Being in a town and simply killing off every new player in a starting town isn't either fun nor a start to a great game.
Typically a developer can get around this making it PvE and the empire is the equivalent of being a "safety zone" at it's core but the border is where the PvP occurs in the form of PvE. Otherwise just implementing PvP in an mmo has to take a lot of underlying dynamics to make it work in general if it's integrated into the game as an essential feature of the game (like EvE) or it has to be treated as a secondary "optional treat" not used by all (ie. FF14).
EvE has some luxuries on it's end as it creates player corporations that can act as an entity of its own and, thus, act less so as a PvE and more as just tons of players versus players. I think the presence of "outlaws" with wanted posters also lets you pan out a PvP if you wanted to but you still get restrictions on how it works.
If this sh*t were frankly simple, I think more developers would use it but with any mmo we already have tons of sh*t that the focus and "features" being developed probably drives PvP as something integrated into the game but not something that drives the game forward.
no thanks to PVP/PVE interdependency because why would i want to help this guy and players like him? PVPers who insult PVE'rs at every turn and you wonder why PVE only players don't want to play with you and want their own game.
when people like this get off their this ego trip because they kill other players pixels in a video game maybe then you can have you PVP/PVE interdependency. until then keep the playstyles completely separate.
I think the problem with compromise in video games is that developers do half of one thing, then half of another thing and call it a whole thing, when it's really not. It's just two half things so players often get half of something instead of a whole game.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
could not disagree more.
Look most MMOs worlds are based on real life. In that you do a job, you get paid, you trade items etc.
Real life is not a pvp game. It is on a larger scale but for the most part real life is about co-op.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
MMO devs are selling rewards not floor wax. That's why.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
TruthXHurts has SO many pearls of fallacy on this forum, I'd like to tackle the major ones to *stupidly* try to bring some sort of sense to this topic as to why "we can't have nice things because of the PvE Only Player".
"Why does it bother you that SOME games don't cater directly to you? Are you so entitled that you don't think a game has a right to exist unless it's marketed toward you? Get a grip and go play one of the thousands of PVE games already on the market and stop trying to poison the well of sandbox gaming." This is not congruent with "Why do you consider it a direct attack on you if a game is made that doesn't fit your exact playstyle? I can't begin to tell you how entitled you sound." We find this to be a fallacy because the very thing you are arguing is that your prefered FFAPvP playstyle isn't being catered to. So much so, you honestly posted that people are paid to get on forums and "quiet the demand" for more sandbox FFA (all tens of the demand). Also, and this may be hard because your hubris won't let you see it, but you, yourself, sound very entitled.
This "I actually am a bandit. I go after single targets usually who are gathering. Do I kill for fun? Of course not... What's the point? Will I wait in the bushes watching you for 20 minutes till you are done mining and hopefully a bit encumbered and take full tactical advantage of your unguarded serfs? You bet your sweet bippy I will. A sheep that cries when wolf eats eat should have stayed closer to the flock." is not really congruent with "The only asshats I see are the ones who join a game with a pvp ruleset then cry on forums when someone kills their flower pickin hippy ass. Those are the true asshats who clearly have some sort of emotional problems or just want to cause problems for sandbox gaming in general." This is a fallacy because you, yourself, sound like the very asshat various people have mentioned in terms of why PvP just doesn't work. You turn around and call the people that don't share your mindset the asshats. Pretty brave card for you to play, dewd.
Also, Truth uses the term "carebears" quite often. When they said, "Do I kill for fun? Of course not... What's the point?"- just know, I call bullshit. You do kill, and you do do it for fun, that's why you play those types of games- to kill people, and to have fun doing it. Surely it's not to farm, or immerse yourself in the lore and do quests- that's... what's that new fangled term? PvE, correct? I honestly do not believe that you have waited in the bushes for 20 minutes whilst people mine to take "full tactical advantage on their unguarded serfs" without having an ounce of fun- if you didn't, you wouldn't play that game.
Also of note, I entirely agree- if someone logs into a FFAPvP game, they need to be hip to the terms and conditions. Honestly, I think people should be aware of these for every game they play.
As mentioned, the reason PvP is the way it is, currently, is because of people like TruthXHurts, and to some degree, yourself, OP. If PvE'ers don't want PvP, they won't PvP. If they're in a game that only houses PvP, and whine when they die, that's literally on them, and their opinion should, in no way, effect the game your playing- it's perpetually impossible to ruin your game if you're the one that killed them. I don't understand how PvE players are the reason that PvP players can't have the game they want- there's quite a few PvPcentric online games to play.
But blaming a group of people that aren't even directly involved with the type of playstyle you prefer and want to see more of, and calling them things like "carebears" and saying they "qq moar" (not saying the OP or anyone else did it, this is just the mindset for the typical PvPer- no wonder people don't want to play with these guys) when they are killed just.... well, look no further than a mirror if you have to wonder why you can't have "nice" things.
TL;DR- People are the reason PvP isn't as good as it could be. People suck. All of us. Between hackers, BM'ers, Elitest, and just genuinely all around disagreeable human beings, people are the reason PvP doesn't work. Not PvE'rs who literally could not care less if you like to PvP.
...Here endeth the lesson.
Loves: SMITE, WildStar, Project Zomboid, PSO2, DCUO,
Worst Online Communities: WoW/WoD(the OG MMO Trolls), DayZ/WarZ, SMITE/LoL/DOTA, EVE Online, APB
"Im ready for
All the comparisons
I think its dumb and its embarrassing
Im switching off
No longer listening
Ive had enough of persecution and conditioning
Maybe its instinct- Were only animal" - Lily Allen, Sheezus
PVE and progression are to prepare you for PVP.
Progression isn't a game.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
An idiot grenade just went off, and I do not have the equipment for the Collateral Moronic Damage that transpired. PvE does not prepare you for the BM'ing and CampBearing that goes on in PvP... PvP usually has different sets of armor, different tactics needed... I'm just gonna back out of the conversation now... I'll let you guys get back to being nudnicks. Have fun!
Loves: SMITE, WildStar, Project Zomboid, PSO2, DCUO,
Worst Online Communities: WoW/WoD(the OG MMO Trolls), DayZ/WarZ, SMITE/LoL/DOTA, EVE Online, APB
"Im ready for
All the comparisons
I think its dumb and its embarrassing
Im switching off
No longer listening
Ive had enough of persecution and conditioning
Maybe its instinct- Were only animal" - Lily Allen, Sheezus
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
See ya later then.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
You, sir, seem like a very intelligent human being. I was thinking exactly what you wrote, just not so succinctly.
Loves: SMITE, WildStar, Project Zomboid, PSO2, DCUO,
Worst Online Communities: WoW/WoD(the OG MMO Trolls), DayZ/WarZ, SMITE/LoL/DOTA, EVE Online, APB
"Im ready for
All the comparisons
I think its dumb and its embarrassing
Im switching off
No longer listening
Ive had enough of persecution and conditioning
Maybe its instinct- Were only animal" - Lily Allen, Sheezus
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
What I love about this post is that it's actually the whole of the argument, and not just one side over the other. PvE does not effect PvP like PvP does not effect PvE (unless you're in a PvPvE instance). If you kill another player in a PvPvE instance- fair game. Other than that, PvE in no way effects PvP. And their parts, individually and entirely, make the sum of the game.
Well played, sir, well played.
Loves: SMITE, WildStar, Project Zomboid, PSO2, DCUO,
Worst Online Communities: WoW/WoD(the OG MMO Trolls), DayZ/WarZ, SMITE/LoL/DOTA, EVE Online, APB
"Im ready for
All the comparisons
I think its dumb and its embarrassing
Im switching off
No longer listening
Ive had enough of persecution and conditioning
Maybe its instinct- Were only animal" - Lily Allen, Sheezus
Didn't you just call me an idiot?
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"