I know right? It's the most successful and profitable MMO of all time. And still is.
Is Wow's main end game territory control pvp or just some battlegrounds and pvp matches added on that don't mean anything when they are over?
So your saying having a slight advantage in mass pvp where all sides are rarely if ever equal anyway has more impact than in pvp where all sides are guaranteed to be pretty even at all times? Is this opposite day?
Are you sure your posting in the right thread? If so please be a little more clear and illustrate a point for further discussion.
Your arguing that having a slight advantage from addons in a game that has large scale pvp, where sides are never equal is a bad thing and that because WoW has more evenly matched pvp it's some how less of an advantage in that game. Fact is that the advantage that addons give only matter if all sides are even (or pretty close to) and that just wont be the case in 99% of the battles in cyrodiil
I know right? It's the most successful and profitable MMO of all time. And still is.
Is Wow's main end game territory control pvp or just some battlegrounds and pvp matches added on that don't mean anything when they are over?
So your saying having a slight advantage in mass pvp where all sides are rarely if ever equal anyway has more impact than in pvp where all sides are guaranteed to be pretty even at all times? Is this opposite day?
Are you sure your posting in the right thread? If so please be a little more clear and illustrate a point for further discussion.
Your arguing that having a slight advantage from addons in a game that has large scale pvp, where sides are never equal is a bad thing and that because WoW has more evenly matched pvp it's some how less of an advantage in that game. Fact is that the advantage that addons give only matter if all sides are even (or pretty close to) and that just wont be the case in 99% of the battles in cyrodiil
This is a game breaking problem that will damage the end game pvp which will keep people subbing. I'm saying comparing "any" mmo that has add-ons calling them a standard feature is ignorant of how they are applied in those games to the way they will affect the long term success of ESO.
This discussion really has nothing to do with what you are bringing up or has any relevance to the topic.
I know right? It's the most successful and profitable MMO of all time. And still is.
Is Wow's main end game territory control pvp or just some battlegrounds and pvp matches added on that don't mean anything when they are over?
So your saying having a slight advantage in mass pvp where all sides are rarely if ever equal anyway has more impact than in pvp where all sides are guaranteed to be pretty even at all times? Is this opposite day?
Are you sure your posting in the right thread? If so please be a little more clear and illustrate a point for further discussion.
Your arguing that having a slight advantage from addons in a game that has large scale pvp, where sides are never equal is a bad thing and that because WoW has more evenly matched pvp it's some how less of an advantage in that game. Fact is that the advantage that addons give only matter if all sides are even (or pretty close to) and that just wont be the case in 99% of the battles in cyrodiil
This is a game breaking problem that will damage the end game pvp which will keep people subbing. I'm saying comparing "any" mmo that has add-ons calling them a standard feature is ignorant of how they are applied in those games to the way they will affect the long term success of ESO.
This discussion really has nothing to do with what you are bringing up or has any relevance to the topic.
How is it game breaking exactly? If addons aren't game breaking for mmo's who's end game pvp is based on equal sided encounters they will be even less of an issue for a game who's end game pvp is based on uneven encounters. Or are you simply suggesting that end game pvp has nothing to do with longevity in games that have a bg/arena system, so addons don't matter? Either way you are wrong
I wasn't the one that brought up WoW or any other mmo's PvP end game, that was you
Way too much crud on the screen. It completely breaks immersion, imho. You're basically sacrificing immersion and what little RPG aspects there are in the game for every advantage you can get over competing players. It doesn't really matter what the game is like behind all that statistical mess. It can be a pvp game of different colored Pokemans going at it or a bunch of Princesses fighting over Prince Charming, and these guys with all the mods blocking the screen wouldn't even notice a difference.
Originally posted by Alders You can't prevent people from using addons even if they make it illegal.I'd be more worried about the "secret" addons that people are not showing yet and less about ones that present basic info already provided. I'm sure there's already a radar hack for AvA making all that stealth meaningless.
If the function is not exposed through an api then it is a crack/hack and should be handled like such. Account termination.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Originally posted by Kalza_Bane The video shows nothing that would give an advantage to the mod user.The only thing those mods would help is if he used it on a practice dummy to min/max.Really, what advantage did he have over others? He could see his damage? He could see a buff icon? What good did it do him?
take 2 equal players. they have fought eachother 100 times it's 50/50. give one of them the ability to see info regarding buffs, magik, stamina, and power attacks of the other. guess who wins?
Originally posted by Kalza_Bane The video shows nothing that would give an advantage to the mod user.
The only thing those mods would help is if he used it on a practice dummy to min/max.
Really, what advantage did he have over others? He could see his damage? He could see a buff icon? What good did it do him?
take 2 equal players. they have fought eachother 100 times it's 50/50. give one of them the ability to see info regarding buffs, magik, stamina, and power attacks of the other. guess who wins?
The one who has managed to play his character correctly, and don't waste time looking at numbers.
This game is about movement, resource management, and skill. Death are superfast, and u don't really
have the time to go over numbers and icons on the screen in the heat of the battle.
Best skill and character knowledge always wins, nomatter how many numbers the contender has.
Can't give a shite about addons. If ppl need them, then use them. Ill gank ya anyways.
Yes, thats what i was afraid off, these mods turned the great ideas of the developers intoo an ordinary wow clone...
if these mods become mandatory for performing top in pvp, then it actually ruins much of the gameplay for me... When the game forces me to watch ui ellements to be a top performer it fails... I just want to watch the action on the screen and react toit, without being at a disadvantage..
ui mods like these have no place in a competitive pvp environment, or an immersive pve environment.... And thats exactly the two sides of this game
Mods do know such thing. Mods have been the hallmark of ALL Elder Scrolls Games and the ONLINE version shouldn't be any different.
no offense but it's kind of nice to turn that back around on all the people whose told me so much over the last few months.
Thats maybe because you dont understand why mods can be harmfull for online games..... in a single player game environment they ruin only the experience of the player using them... in an online game they have the power to ruin the game for all players...
Cheating or having unfair advantages takes away the choice of using mods that ruin the look and feel of the game and turns it intoo a must for being competitive..
If there is one online environment where mods have been known to give unfair advantages, its competitive PvP... and thats exactly why all these people want to play PvP in ESO.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Originally posted by Kalza_Bane The video shows nothing that would give an advantage to the mod user.
The only thing those mods would help is if he used it on a practice dummy to min/max.
Really, what advantage did he have over others? He could see his damage? He could see a buff icon? What good did it do him?
take 2 equal players. they have fought eachother 100 times it's 50/50. give one of them the ability to see info regarding buffs, magik, stamina, and power attacks of the other. guess who wins?
The one who has managed to play his character correctly, and don't waste time looking at numbers.
This game is about movement, resource management, and skill. Death are superfast, and u don't really
have the time to go over numbers and icons on the screen in the heat of the battle.
Best skill and character knowledge always wins, nomatter how many numbers the contender has.
Can't give a shite about addons. If ppl need them, then use them. Ill gank ya anyways.
Bologna, when you have a UI that clearly and directly tells you EXACTLY how much stamina/magicka your user has (Which you don't see with the default UI) that is an advantage period.
Also the more and more they are allowed to go people can easily write macros and things that will bascially tell them exactly what the BEST skill is to use vs what their target has/is doing, when they are vulnerable to cc, cooldowns, what skill is best for this, etc.
Yes, thats what i was afraid off, these mods turned the great ideas of the developers intoo an ordinary wow clone... if these mods become mandatory for performing top in pvp, then it actually ruins much of the gameplay for me... When the game forces me to watch ui ellements to be a top performer it fails... I just want to watch the action on the screen and react toit, without being at a disadvantage.. ui mods like these have no place in a competitive pvp environment, or an immersive pve environment.... And thats exactly the two sides of this game
Yes, thats what i was afraid off, these mods turned the great ideas of the developers intoo an ordinary wow clone...
if these mods become mandatory for performing top in pvp, then it actually ruins much of the gameplay for me... When the game forces me to watch ui ellements to be a top performer it fails... I just want to watch the action on the screen and react toit, without being at a disadvantage..
ui mods like these have no place in a competitive pvp environment, or an immersive pve environment.... And thats exactly the two sides of this game
Mods do know such thing. Mods have been the hallmark of ALL Elder Scrolls Games and the ONLINE version shouldn't be any different.
no offense but it's kind of nice to turn that back around on all the people whose told me so much over the last few months.
Thats maybe because you dont understand why mods can be harmfull for online games..... in a single player game environment they ruin only the experience of the player using them... in an online game they have the power to ruin the game for all players...
Cheating or having unfair advantages takes away the choice of using mods that ruin the look and feel of the game and turns it intoo a must for being competitive..
If there is one online environment where mods have been known to give unfair advantages, its competitive PvP... and thats exactly why all these people want to play PvP in ESO.
I think saying people want to play PvP in ESO for their mods is a stretch at best.
And sorry I just do not share your sentiments, changing the UI and adding elements that are easier to track is not in my definition of "cheating" and "unfair advantages". For me it makes the game much more enjoyable and allows me to play how I would of designed. Ergo, it gives longevity to the game. Nothing worse then staring at the stock UI elements of a generic MMO! I tell you right now I would of stuck with GW2 much longer if they allowed Mods...in fact I had to semi-break the TOS's to use a Combat Mod to make the game more enjoyable for me.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I hope they don't have add-ons on the console version!
Here's a thought though, why not disable mods for PvP? That way it is a fair playing field for all players, no advantages or disadvantages whatsoever (apart from latency obviously)..
I hope they don't have add-ons on the console version!
Here's a thought though, why not disable mods for PvP? That way it is a fair playing field for all players, no advantages or disadvantages whatsoever (apart from latency obviously)..
Good idea....
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
If you think Addons give advantages... just use them yourself, god damn. Or make Zenimax fix their standard UI so people don't feel like they want addons.
Currently i absolutly want addons, simply because the stock UI is not even close to what i consider good or enjoyable. Being able to adjust the UI is a MAJOR factor in keeping the broad masses happy. It simply is not possible to design an UI for everyone. And yes: The UI makes a great difference on how people like a game.
Removing addons from pvp would just feel like a slap in the face. Imagine you build an UI that looks and feels great. You level and enjoy the game, then hit up pvp. Bam, you are back to the terrible stock UI. Really think this would be fair? Only to those that torture themselves to use the stock one.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
Thre are a couple of interesting points to lift out of the OP and subsequent discussion imo:
1. This is another perfect example of Zeni flip flopping and doing the complete opposite of everything they promise.
2.. There are generally two types of addon that I have come accross in my MMORPG experience, one type of addon simply harnesses game data that is present but not displayed to the UI by default. These types of addon include range meters, damage meters, weapon & armour swapping etc...these addons simply enhance the amount of information that is available to us as players. The information is already there, the addons do not manipulate the data or provide any artificial advantage, they simlpy allow us as gamers to make better use of the existing information in order to improve our skills.
The second type of addon that I have come accross is the player made addon to replace things like default unit frames, combat spam, buff icons etc etc.
My concern here is that if players are already having to make addons along the lines of the latter, why is this the case when the game has not even launched?
Are we saying that the default UI / unit frames / buff icons etc are all so bad that they need community mods to drag them up to an acceptable level already?
AAA MMORPGs releasing in 2014 should not need the playing community to address shortfalls and inadequacies in basic features that everyone expects like a professional and intuitive UI / unit frames etc.
So I'd like to understand, are players making these mods because of shortcomings in the games combat feedback? Or are players making these mods to address shortcomings in basic game features?
Either way, Zeni should be addressing these things prior to release not launching a half finished product and expecting fans to finish the job whilst paying premium prices to access the product!
Just wouldn't be right if there weren't overreactions to things that honestly have fair points on both sides. For all the fair points involved, everything still is about how poorly the game is made, even if it could fairly go either way, and going either way has already got the famous "slap in the face" response.
I really just don't see how this can be that big of a deal either way. If they don't allow it, then fine. I can live with what they have for a UI and appreciate the immersion they are trying to do by not having me watch a bunch of control panels. If they do allow it, that is also fine; as I sure can make use of the information available and can plan my moves based on my enemies status.
Seriously. Let's all get at each others throats over what boils down to just a small detail that really could be handled either way, regardless of if it is your personal favorite way to do it.
Simply conforming and making use of said add-ons is not the solution which would fit their vision. The developers of The Elder Scrolls Online have stated countless times that they want to create a game that feels like an Elder Scrolls title. This, among many other factors, means utilizing Oblivion's/Skyrim's minimalistic UI, which shifts the player's focus away from the UI and into the action itself. The player is intended to play a character in the world of Tamriel, not the UI. By allowing the use of such add-ons, it becomes a necessity for competitive play, and the player's focus shifts away from the action and to the add-ons, where the bars clearly state what the enemy is doing, how much health, magicka, and stamina he has, etc. This includes information, I would like to add, which would be absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to know without said add-ons. That is not, however, a flaw of the base UI. It is simply a defining characteristic of the series, where immersion and an emphasis on the action is placed over such things.
Many claim that The Elder Scrolls series is, however, famous for its MODS and how therefore that justifies ADD-ONS of this type. Utilizing that as an argument for the inclusion of ADD-ONS like in the video is a completely flawed argument. The series is not known for ADD-ONS like the ones present in the video. The type of MODS that are so dear to the fans are the ones that add content, fix bugs, enhance the graphics, organize the backpack, add sounds, adjusts the AI, etc. The ADD-ONS present in the video have absolutely ZERO to do with the mods for Oblivion/Skyrim.
Simply conforming and making use of said add-ons is not the solution which would fit their vision. The developers of The Elder Scrolls Online have stated countless times that they want to create a game that feels like an Elder Scrolls title. This, among many other factors, means utilizing Oblivion's/Skyrim's minimalistic UI, which shifts the player's focus away from the UI and into the action itself. The player is intended to play a character in the world of Tamriel, not the UI. By allowing the use of such add-ons, it becomes a necessity for competitive play, and the player's focus shifts away from the action and to the add-ons, where the bars clearly state what the enemy is doing, how much health, magicka, and stamina he has, etc. This includes information, I would like to add, which would be absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to know without said add-ons.
Many claim that The Elder Scrolls series is, however, famous for its MODS and how therefore that justifies ADD-ONS of this type. Utilizing that as an argument for the inclusion of ADD-ONS like in the video is a completely flawed argument. The series is not known for ADD-ONS like the ones present in the video. The type of MODS that are so dear to the fans are the ones that add content, fix bugs, enhance the graphics, organize the backpack, add sounds, adjusts the AI, etc. The ADD-ONS present in the video have absolutely ZERO to do with the mods for Oblivion/Skyrim.
But all of that combat data is already there and available for use through the API.
If Zeni did not intend us to make use of the data to improve our play, why is the data made available to players at all?
Yes, thats what i was afraid off, these mods turned the great ideas of the developers intoo an ordinary wow clone...
if these mods become mandatory for performing top in pvp, then it actually ruins much of the gameplay for me... When the game forces me to watch ui ellements to be a top performer it fails... I just want to watch the action on the screen and react toit, without being at a disadvantage..
ui mods like these have no place in a competitive pvp environment, or an immersive pve environment.... And thats exactly the two sides of this game
Mods do know such thing. Mods have been the hallmark of ALL Elder Scrolls Games and the ONLINE version shouldn't be any different.
no offense but it's kind of nice to turn that back around on all the people whose told me so much over the last few months.
By this logic, we should have mods that leave a backpack for you at the start of the game that contains a set of the best gear you can possibly find. Or we should be able to implement our own custom spells that you can completely destroy the enemy alliances with and they won't be able to do anything about it.
Yes, thats what i was afraid off, these mods turned the great ideas of the developers intoo an ordinary wow clone...
if these mods become mandatory for performing top in pvp, then it actually ruins much of the gameplay for me... When the game forces me to watch ui ellements to be a top performer it fails... I just want to watch the action on the screen and react toit, without being at a disadvantage..
ui mods like these have no place in a competitive pvp environment, or an immersive pve environment.... And thats exactly the two sides of this game
Mods do know such thing. Mods have been the hallmark of ALL Elder Scrolls Games and the ONLINE version shouldn't be any different.
no offense but it's kind of nice to turn that back around on all the people whose told me so much over the last few months.
Thats maybe because you dont understand why mods can be harmfull for online games..... in a single player game environment they ruin only the experience of the player using them... in an online game they have the power to ruin the game for all players...
Cheating or having unfair advantages takes away the choice of using mods that ruin the look and feel of the game and turns it intoo a must for being competitive..
If there is one online environment where mods have been known to give unfair advantages, its competitive PvP... and thats exactly why all these people want to play PvP in ESO.
I think saying people want to play PvP in ESO for their mods is a stretch at best.
And sorry I just do not share your sentiments, changing the UI and adding elements that are easier to track is not in my definition of "cheating" and "unfair advantages". For me it makes the game much more enjoyable and allows me to play how I would of designed. Ergo, it gives longevity to the game. Nothing worse then staring at the stock UI elements of a generic MMO! I tell you right now I would of stuck with GW2 much longer if they allowed Mods...in fact I had to semi-break the TOS's to use a Combat Mod to make the game more enjoyable for me.
The Guild Wars 2 Combat Mod was not against the TOS. Don't mislead people. ANet said they had no problem with it because it did not allow you to do anything you wouldn't be able to do normally. Hell, I'd played the entire game, holding my rmb down, before discovering that mod. It was pure convenience.
What we're talking about with ESO is people have access to very important combat information that anyone not using addons has no power to see/access.
Yes, thats what i was afraid off, these mods turned the great ideas of the developers intoo an ordinary wow clone...
if these mods become mandatory for performing top in pvp, then it actually ruins much of the gameplay for me... When the game forces me to watch ui ellements to be a top performer it fails... I just want to watch the action on the screen and react toit, without being at a disadvantage..
ui mods like these have no place in a competitive pvp environment, or an immersive pve environment.... And thats exactly the two sides of this game
Mods do know such thing. Mods have been the hallmark of ALL Elder Scrolls Games and the ONLINE version shouldn't be any different.
no offense but it's kind of nice to turn that back around on all the people whose told me so much over the last few months.
By this logic, we should have mods that leave a backpack for you at the start of the game that contains a set of the best gear you can possibly find. Or we should be able to implement our own custom spells that you can completely destroy the enemy alliances with and they won't be able to do anything about it.
Agreed...
I've played all of the ES games and FO3, I loved them all.
But...the mods associated with those games tend to be massively high res texture packs that would literally destroy performance in an MMORPG due to the client/server technology, or they tend to be, as the poster above describes, the "Leave me a backpack with the most powerful gear set in game just outside my front door" type mods....or "swap this sword for a 40K chain sword and increase the damage by 400%" type mods.
Yes, the community used mods to fix the abysmal amount of bugs that ES games are famous for....but the other side of the coin where ES mods are concerned does indeed focus on the totally OP and unbalanced mods that ONLY work in a single player off line RPG where they are not game breaking for other players.
Ultimately they will be forced to come forward and talk about this. It might not be now, but after release it will continue to be a hot button topic when their official forums go live.
I am in the crowd that feels like addons are fine, but only to a certain point.
I do not believe they should be displaying tons of additional information that is not displayed by the default UI. People will beat around the bush and skirt true discussion, wave their hand dismissively and say it is fine.
There have been numerous polls about this on the current Bethesda forums and generally speaking, people do not want addons that give tons of extra information. Those polled also do not want addons giving information that is not available in the standard UI.
At the end of the day, there are just as many MMO that get by with ZERO addon support as those with full addon support.
Zen can determine what "hooks" are available to the addon community and this can be changed at anytime.
I honestly can not fathom why a select group of people can not see the point of view about addons being advantageous in certain pvp scenarios.
I like to compare it to a war... the person with more intel on the enemy has a huge advantage. Problem is, this is a video game and we are supposed to be on relatively even footing.
If we are allowed to do virtually anything with addons... then the game looks less and less unique and becomes more like the things it is trying to be different from. We also know that as time passes people will feel that certain addons are required to even play portions of the game. Then you go down the slippery slope of having to design content around addons.
Originally posted by Kalza_Bane The video shows nothing that would give an advantage to the mod user.
The only thing those mods would help is if he used it on a practice dummy to min/max.
Really, what advantage did he have over others? He could see his damage? He could see a buff icon? What good did it do him?
take 2 equal players. they have fought eachother 100 times it's 50/50. give one of them the ability to see info regarding buffs, magik, stamina, and power attacks of the other. guess who wins?
The one who has managed to play his character correctly, and don't waste time looking at numbers.
This game is about movement, resource management, and skill. Death are superfast, and u don't really
have the time to go over numbers and icons on the screen in the heat of the battle.
Best skill and character knowledge always wins, nomatter how many numbers the contender has.
Can't give a shite about addons. If ppl need them, then use them. Ill gank ya anyways.
You clearly didn't read his point about them being equally skilled. At which point the guy who can reapply his buffs/debuffs *exactly* when they wear off (thanks to an addon telling him to,) or another addon telling him -immediately- that he's been hit with a particular cc -- or another saying he's been hit with a mark target, and now would be a really good time to throw up that magma armor and obliterate the enemy Nightblade.
Information is everything in combat. If an addon tells you exactly what an opponent is channeling, you know whether to dodge or bash (you know exactly how much time they'll be channeling, and if you have time to do the latter.) These are just a few of the countless examples that will make a difference in combat.
Who cares if combat is generally not equal to begin with. it's an advantage not acquired or earned in game, but through third party scripts.
Ultimately they will be forced to come forward and talk about this. It might not be now, but after release it will continue to be a hot button topic when their official forums go live.
I am in the crowd that feels like addons are fine, but only to a certain point.
I do not believe they should be displaying tons of additional information that is not displayed by the default UI. People will beat around the bush and skirt true discussion, wave their hand dismissively and say it is fine.
There have been numerous polls about this on the current Bethesda forums and generally speaking, people do not want addons that give tons of extra information. Those polled also do not want addons giving information that is not available in the standard UI.
At the end of the day, there are just as many MMO that get by with ZERO addon support as those with full addon support.
Zen can determine what "hooks" are available to the addon community and this can be changed at anytime.
I honestly can not fathom why a select group of people can not see the point of view about addons being advantageous in certain pvp scenarios.
I like to compare it to a war... the person with more intel on the enemy has a huge advantage. Problem is, this is a video game and we are supposed to be on relatively even footing.
If we are allowed to do virtually anything with addons... then the game looks less and less unique and becomes more like the things it is trying to be different from. We also know that as time passes people will feel that certain addons are required to even play portions of the game. Then you go down the slippery slope of having to design content around addons.
I think people generally tend to dismiss the arguement that addons give significant advantages in PvP because you can only cry foul about an advantage in PvP if said advantage is available to some, but not all.
Most PvPers tend to have the attitude, hey this addon is available to EVERYONE. EVERYONE can choose to use it or not. If you CHOOSE not to use it, that does not equal the advantage not being available to you....
You cannot be dis-advantaged if you have access to all of the exact same options and opportunities as everyone else.
Comments
Your arguing that having a slight advantage from addons in a game that has large scale pvp, where sides are never equal is a bad thing and that because WoW has more evenly matched pvp it's some how less of an advantage in that game. Fact is that the advantage that addons give only matter if all sides are even (or pretty close to) and that just wont be the case in 99% of the battles in cyrodiil
This is a game breaking problem that will damage the end game pvp which will keep people subbing. I'm saying comparing "any" mmo that has add-ons calling them a standard feature is ignorant of how they are applied in those games to the way they will affect the long term success of ESO.
This discussion really has nothing to do with what you are bringing up or has any relevance to the topic.
Life IS Feudal
How is it game breaking exactly? If addons aren't game breaking for mmo's who's end game pvp is based on equal sided encounters they will be even less of an issue for a game who's end game pvp is based on uneven encounters. Or are you simply suggesting that end game pvp has nothing to do with longevity in games that have a bg/arena system, so addons don't matter? Either way you are wrong
I wasn't the one that brought up WoW or any other mmo's PvP end game, that was you
If the function is not exposed through an api then it is a crack/hack and should be handled like such. Account termination.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
take 2 equal players. they have fought eachother 100 times it's 50/50. give one of them the ability to see info regarding buffs, magik, stamina, and power attacks of the other. guess who wins?
The one who has managed to play his character correctly, and don't waste time looking at numbers.
This game is about movement, resource management, and skill. Death are superfast, and u don't really
have the time to go over numbers and icons on the screen in the heat of the battle.
Best skill and character knowledge always wins, nomatter how many numbers the contender has.
Can't give a shite about addons. If ppl need them, then use them. Ill gank ya anyways.
Thats maybe because you dont understand why mods can be harmfull for online games..... in a single player game environment they ruin only the experience of the player using them... in an online game they have the power to ruin the game for all players...
Cheating or having unfair advantages takes away the choice of using mods that ruin the look and feel of the game and turns it intoo a must for being competitive..
If there is one online environment where mods have been known to give unfair advantages, its competitive PvP... and thats exactly why all these people want to play PvP in ESO.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Bologna, when you have a UI that clearly and directly tells you EXACTLY how much stamina/magicka your user has (Which you don't see with the default UI) that is an advantage period.
Also the more and more they are allowed to go people can easily write macros and things that will bascially tell them exactly what the BEST skill is to use vs what their target has/is doing, when they are vulnerable to cc, cooldowns, what skill is best for this, etc.
Ps4, wont prob have it!I think saying people want to play PvP in ESO for their mods is a stretch at best.
And sorry I just do not share your sentiments, changing the UI and adding elements that are easier to track is not in my definition of "cheating" and "unfair advantages". For me it makes the game much more enjoyable and allows me to play how I would of designed. Ergo, it gives longevity to the game. Nothing worse then staring at the stock UI elements of a generic MMO! I tell you right now I would of stuck with GW2 much longer if they allowed Mods...in fact I had to semi-break the TOS's to use a Combat Mod to make the game more enjoyable for me.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I hope they don't have add-ons on the console version!
Here's a thought though, why not disable mods for PvP? That way it is a fair playing field for all players, no advantages or disadvantages whatsoever (apart from latency obviously)..
Good idea....
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
If you think Addons give advantages... just use them yourself, god damn. Or make Zenimax fix their standard UI so people don't feel like they want addons.
Currently i absolutly want addons, simply because the stock UI is not even close to what i consider good or enjoyable. Being able to adjust the UI is a MAJOR factor in keeping the broad masses happy. It simply is not possible to design an UI for everyone. And yes: The UI makes a great difference on how people like a game.
Removing addons from pvp would just feel like a slap in the face. Imagine you build an UI that looks and feels great. You level and enjoy the game, then hit up pvp. Bam, you are back to the terrible stock UI. Really think this would be fair? Only to those that torture themselves to use the stock one.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
Thre are a couple of interesting points to lift out of the OP and subsequent discussion imo:
1. This is another perfect example of Zeni flip flopping and doing the complete opposite of everything they promise.
2.. There are generally two types of addon that I have come accross in my MMORPG experience, one type of addon simply harnesses game data that is present but not displayed to the UI by default. These types of addon include range meters, damage meters, weapon & armour swapping etc...these addons simply enhance the amount of information that is available to us as players. The information is already there, the addons do not manipulate the data or provide any artificial advantage, they simlpy allow us as gamers to make better use of the existing information in order to improve our skills.
The second type of addon that I have come accross is the player made addon to replace things like default unit frames, combat spam, buff icons etc etc.
My concern here is that if players are already having to make addons along the lines of the latter, why is this the case when the game has not even launched?
Are we saying that the default UI / unit frames / buff icons etc are all so bad that they need community mods to drag them up to an acceptable level already?
AAA MMORPGs releasing in 2014 should not need the playing community to address shortfalls and inadequacies in basic features that everyone expects like a professional and intuitive UI / unit frames etc.
So I'd like to understand, are players making these mods because of shortcomings in the games combat feedback? Or are players making these mods to address shortcomings in basic game features?
Either way, Zeni should be addressing these things prior to release not launching a half finished product and expecting fans to finish the job whilst paying premium prices to access the product!
Driz
Just wouldn't be right if there weren't overreactions to things that honestly have fair points on both sides. For all the fair points involved, everything still is about how poorly the game is made, even if it could fairly go either way, and going either way has already got the famous "slap in the face" response.
I really just don't see how this can be that big of a deal either way. If they don't allow it, then fine. I can live with what they have for a UI and appreciate the immersion they are trying to do by not having me watch a bunch of control panels. If they do allow it, that is also fine; as I sure can make use of the information available and can plan my moves based on my enemies status.
Seriously. Let's all get at each others throats over what boils down to just a small detail that really could be handled either way, regardless of if it is your personal favorite way to do it.
Simply conforming and making use of said add-ons is not the solution which would fit their vision. The developers of The Elder Scrolls Online have stated countless times that they want to create a game that feels like an Elder Scrolls title. This, among many other factors, means utilizing Oblivion's/Skyrim's minimalistic UI, which shifts the player's focus away from the UI and into the action itself. The player is intended to play a character in the world of Tamriel, not the UI. By allowing the use of such add-ons, it becomes a necessity for competitive play, and the player's focus shifts away from the action and to the add-ons, where the bars clearly state what the enemy is doing, how much health, magicka, and stamina he has, etc. This includes information, I would like to add, which would be absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to know without said add-ons. That is not, however, a flaw of the base UI. It is simply a defining characteristic of the series, where immersion and an emphasis on the action is placed over such things.
Many claim that The Elder Scrolls series is, however, famous for its MODS and how therefore that justifies ADD-ONS of this type. Utilizing that as an argument for the inclusion of ADD-ONS like in the video is a completely flawed argument. The series is not known for ADD-ONS like the ones present in the video. The type of MODS that are so dear to the fans are the ones that add content, fix bugs, enhance the graphics, organize the backpack, add sounds, adjusts the AI, etc. The ADD-ONS present in the video have absolutely ZERO to do with the mods for Oblivion/Skyrim.
But all of that combat data is already there and available for use through the API.
If Zeni did not intend us to make use of the data to improve our play, why is the data made available to players at all?
Driz
By this logic, we should have mods that leave a backpack for you at the start of the game that contains a set of the best gear you can possibly find. Or we should be able to implement our own custom spells that you can completely destroy the enemy alliances with and they won't be able to do anything about it.
The Guild Wars 2 Combat Mod was not against the TOS. Don't mislead people. ANet said they had no problem with it because it did not allow you to do anything you wouldn't be able to do normally. Hell, I'd played the entire game, holding my rmb down, before discovering that mod. It was pure convenience.
What we're talking about with ESO is people have access to very important combat information that anyone not using addons has no power to see/access.
Agreed...
I've played all of the ES games and FO3, I loved them all.
But...the mods associated with those games tend to be massively high res texture packs that would literally destroy performance in an MMORPG due to the client/server technology, or they tend to be, as the poster above describes, the "Leave me a backpack with the most powerful gear set in game just outside my front door" type mods....or "swap this sword for a 40K chain sword and increase the damage by 400%" type mods.
Yes, the community used mods to fix the abysmal amount of bugs that ES games are famous for....but the other side of the coin where ES mods are concerned does indeed focus on the totally OP and unbalanced mods that ONLY work in a single player off line RPG where they are not game breaking for other players.
Driz
Ultimately they will be forced to come forward and talk about this. It might not be now, but after release it will continue to be a hot button topic when their official forums go live.
I am in the crowd that feels like addons are fine, but only to a certain point.
I do not believe they should be displaying tons of additional information that is not displayed by the default UI. People will beat around the bush and skirt true discussion, wave their hand dismissively and say it is fine.
There have been numerous polls about this on the current Bethesda forums and generally speaking, people do not want addons that give tons of extra information. Those polled also do not want addons giving information that is not available in the standard UI.
At the end of the day, there are just as many MMO that get by with ZERO addon support as those with full addon support.
Zen can determine what "hooks" are available to the addon community and this can be changed at anytime.
I honestly can not fathom why a select group of people can not see the point of view about addons being advantageous in certain pvp scenarios.
I like to compare it to a war... the person with more intel on the enemy has a huge advantage. Problem is, this is a video game and we are supposed to be on relatively even footing.
If we are allowed to do virtually anything with addons... then the game looks less and less unique and becomes more like the things it is trying to be different from. We also know that as time passes people will feel that certain addons are required to even play portions of the game. Then you go down the slippery slope of having to design content around addons.
You clearly didn't read his point about them being equally skilled. At which point the guy who can reapply his buffs/debuffs *exactly* when they wear off (thanks to an addon telling him to,) or another addon telling him -immediately- that he's been hit with a particular cc -- or another saying he's been hit with a mark target, and now would be a really good time to throw up that magma armor and obliterate the enemy Nightblade.
Information is everything in combat. If an addon tells you exactly what an opponent is channeling, you know whether to dodge or bash (you know exactly how much time they'll be channeling, and if you have time to do the latter.) These are just a few of the countless examples that will make a difference in combat.
Who cares if combat is generally not equal to begin with. it's an advantage not acquired or earned in game, but through third party scripts.
I think people generally tend to dismiss the arguement that addons give significant advantages in PvP because you can only cry foul about an advantage in PvP if said advantage is available to some, but not all.
Most PvPers tend to have the attitude, hey this addon is available to EVERYONE. EVERYONE can choose to use it or not. If you CHOOSE not to use it, that does not equal the advantage not being available to you....
You cannot be dis-advantaged if you have access to all of the exact same options and opportunities as everyone else.
Driz