Originally posted by Scypheroth yup this game isnt broken at all....
Its unrealistic to think a level 10-15 bumped up to 50 in Cryodiil would be nearly as effective as a fully developed level 50 toon. Not broken at all.
Lol, with all the skills available, you honestly think it won t be a balancing nightmare. Have fun with that.
Aye, I don't envy the balance team for this game.
That said, though, they've done a surprisingly good job so far. The video linked in the OP is showing off quite a few things people don't understand.
1) It's footage of an old build. There's been a number of balance changes since then. The DK specifically has had it's AoE capability nerfed fairly hard.
2) You're watching a fully geared character fighting against severely up-leveled characters. And that's hardly a zerg, he's fighting no more than 4 at a time (zergs will have you fighting double digits).
It's not unlike if you were to show people footage of GW2 PvP, in which u have a fully geared guardian fighting against a small group of lvl 10 characters up-lvled to 80. To the uninformed the game would look imbalanced as hell. However, to those that have played the game, they'd know that what you were watching was not a common occurance. But rather a very rare / specific situation that looks bad.
Agreed, but as much of a DAOC fan I am, one thing I could admit was it s imbalance/OP FOTM, crap. I see this game, way worse in that regard. It will have some fun for awhile, but I forsee alot of whine posts after release on this subject. I used to hate identical classes fighting each other, nw I find it s the better option.
Originally posted by SysFail I was under the impression PvP was the saving grace of this game, but having watched that video, it looks like the same as any other tab-target based combat system, which is highly disappointing.
Except for the part where the combat isn't tab targeted. Maybe, I dunno, try the game before talking about it?
Originally posted by Scypheroth yup this game isnt broken at all....
Its unrealistic to think a level 10-15 bumped up to 50 in Cryodiil would be nearly as effective as a fully developed level 50 toon. Not broken at all.
Lol, with all the skills available, you honestly think it won t be a balancing nightmare. Have fun with that.
Aye, I don't envy the balance team for this game.
That said, though, they've done a surprisingly good job so far. The video linked in the OP is showing off quite a few things people don't understand.
1) It's footage of an old build. There's been a number of balance changes since then. The DK specifically has had it's AoE capability nerfed fairly hard.
2) You're watching a fully geared character fighting against severely up-leveled characters. And that's hardly a zerg, he's fighting no more than 4 at a time (zergs will have you fighting double digits).
It's not unlike if you were to show people footage of GW2 PvP, in which u have a fully geared guardian fighting against a small group of lvl 10 characters up-lvled to 80. To the uninformed the game would look imbalanced as hell. However, to those that have played the game, they'd know that what you were watching was not a common occurance. But rather a very rare / specific situation that looks bad.
Agreed, but as much of a DAOC fan I am, one thing I could admit was it s imbalance/OP FOTM, crap. I see this game, way worse in that regard. It will have some fun for awhile, but I forsee alot of whine posts after release on this subject. I used to hate identical classes fighting each other, nw I find it s the better option.
Absolutely.
Heck, I can't think of a single RvR-like game that didn't feature massive amounts of whinning over balancing. Probably the least would be GW2, simply because that game was balanced around small-scale / 1v1 combat. Most other RvR games (and especially the good ones) are balanced around group play. ESO seems to have fairly good 1v1 balance, but the focus is still very much on group play.
Fighting against groups will put you at a disadvantage for the simple fact that they'll be throwing synergies at you. Most players don't really think this way, though. All they see is 'this is my character, they beat me, that's OP'. Very few players really think about the larger picture at all while playing these games. And thus, we get massive amounts of whinning about balance. 'So & so is OP because they used a spec that shuts down my own' type thing.
DK's are absolutely tough to deal w/ (even after the nerfs), but I can guaruntee that if any of those players were actually working together and playing tactically, they would've killed him. He was doing what i often do on my Templar. Exploiting the ignorance of others, by using a build that is very counterable, but extremely damaging if allowed to play how you want. Heavy Snares + DoTs, especially combined w/ the Immovable active, would've left that DK burning through his mana barely able to move. Even with cleanses he wouldn't have been able to keep them off himself long enough to do much.
Cyrodiil campaigns have Veteran versions just like Dungeons... so you're saying this V10 decided to play on the regular server and show him killing a bunch of level 10's with only a few hours of PVP?
Sadly there were a couple of high levels but most weren't from the PST server... they grinded a single repeatable quest on an empty server for a couple days before ZOS adjusted the quest XP. So scaling isn't that good in Cyrodiil in the Beta 17.1 version, which is stress test. It is better in the 18.0 version which should be stress tested this weekend or next.
I wonder how long after launch that cries for nerf will plague Zenimax forums and here for the perks involved with being the emperor and the guilds that will exploit that whole emperor mechanic.
Originally posted by rodingo I wonder how long after launch that cries for nerf will plague Zenimax forums and here for the perks involved with being the emperor and the guilds that will exploit that whole emperor mechanic.
Hopefully version 18.0 will have better scaling, 17.1(the one shown) just kind of added a flat amount to all primary attributes, but not any regens, crits %, or damage reduction. Dude who was level 50 was probably regening their(the level 10s) entire Magicka Bar in a single tick.
This is exactly why we can't have nice things. People are scared of 1 OP dude going around boss-mode, even though he probably more than earned that title. I think it's a joke that anyone is whining about the one emperor in the one server.
Found the 2 relevant pieces from the v0.18 patch notes that pertain to this video (video was 0.171)
Quests that originate in Bruma, Cheydinhal, Chorrol, Cropsford, and Vlastarus can now be completed once per 24 hour cycle (resetting at 6:00 AM EST). *This is the exploit people used to get to level 50 during the weekend only betas*
Battle bolstering now properly sets Spell Skill and Attack Skill values. (which means that level 50 would have been dead from the Skill damage pretty quickly.)
Emperor's need to be removed from the game, it's a good idea on paper but the reality is giving one player than much power is absurd. That's failing to mention that after attaining the title they retain lesser versions of the passives. Most emperors also were sitting on siege engines to amass the Alliance points which also needs to be addressed. I made it to #4 on the leaderboards so was in the running for Emp ... but there's simply no way that this system is going to be acceptable when gank groups are running around in mass.
Emperor's need to be removed from the game, it's a good idea on paper but the reality is giving one player than much power is absurd. That's failing to mention that after attaining the title they retain lesser versions of the passives. Most emperors also were sitting on siege engines to amass the Alliance points which also needs to be addressed. I made it to #4 on the leaderboards so was in the running for Emp ... but there's simply no way that this system is going to be acceptable when gank groups are running around in mass.
The passives you get after you have lost emperor-ship are very minimal. The biggest perk is getting the cosmetic armor set.
Giving one player that much power is not absurd. It's a very fun mechanic that will give players across the world a goal to strive for in PvP. Only on MMORPG.com would people cry about ONE person among tens of thousands having temporary OP passives which have to be earned.
Emperor's need to be removed from the game, it's a good idea on paper but the reality is giving one player than much power is absurd. That's failing to mention that after attaining the title they retain lesser versions of the passives. Most emperors also were sitting on siege engines to amass the Alliance points which also needs to be addressed. I made it to #4 on the leaderboards so was in the running for Emp ... but there's simply no way that this system is going to be acceptable when gank groups are running around in mass.
The passives you get after you have lost emperor-ship are very minimal. The biggest perk is getting the cosmetic armor set.
Giving one player that much power is not absurd. It's a very fun mechanic that will give players across the world a goal to strive for in PvP. Only on MMORPG.com would people cry about ONE person among tens of thousands having temporary OP passives which have to be earned.
Agreed.
If they're going to have the emperor mechanic at all, it should mean something and he should be a force to be reckoned with whenever he's around... almost like a player-controlled dragon that we all raid to try to kill...except this dragon has friends.
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― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Emperor's need to be removed from the game, it's a good idea on paper but the reality is giving one player than much power is absurd. That's failing to mention that after attaining the title they retain lesser versions of the passives. Most emperors also were sitting on siege engines to amass the Alliance points which also needs to be addressed. I made it to #4 on the leaderboards so was in the running for Emp ... but there's simply no way that this system is going to be acceptable when gank groups are running around in mass.
The passives you get after you have lost emperor-ship are very minimal. The biggest perk is getting the cosmetic armor set.
Giving one player that much power is not absurd. It's a very fun mechanic that will give players across the world a goal to strive for in PvP. Only on MMORPG.com would people cry about ONE person among tens of thousands having temporary OP passives which have to be earned.
The current way to "Earn" Emp is by sitting on siege to tag as many players as possible for Alliance points. That's not earning ... that's exploiting a broken system. Giving one player massive buffs when it's a complete team effort to attain the points is absurd. Leaving passives on one character who has attained Emp, no matter how minimal, is absurd. Having a system setup which will prohibit equality in pvp is absurd. We would be kidding ourselves if we didn't acknowledge that the hardcore gank groups are going to be attaining Emp very quickly, which will further the gap between casual pvpers. As a hardcore pvper who will be running a gank group ... I don't want a single bonus that isn't attainable by the masses.
Also these are not minimal passives :
Former Emperor: +6% health, magicka, and stamina combat regeneration.
Emperor's need to be removed from the game, it's a good idea on paper but the reality is giving one player than much power is absurd. That's failing to mention that after attaining the title they retain lesser versions of the passives. Most emperors also were sitting on siege engines to amass the Alliance points which also needs to be addressed. I made it to #4 on the leaderboards so was in the running for Emp ... but there's simply no way that this system is going to be acceptable when gank groups are running around in mass.
The passives you get after you have lost emperor-ship are very minimal. The biggest perk is getting the cosmetic armor set.
Giving one player that much power is not absurd. It's a very fun mechanic that will give players across the world a goal to strive for in PvP. Only on MMORPG.com would people cry about ONE person among tens of thousands having temporary OP passives which have to be earned.
The current way to "Earn" Emp is by sitting on siege to tag as many players as possible for Alliance points. That's not earning ... that's exploiting a broken system. Giving one player massive buffs when it's a complete team effort to attain the points is absurd. Leaving passives on one character who has attained Emp, no matter how minimal, is absurd. Having a system setup which will prohibit equality in pvp is absurd. We would be kidding ourselves if we didn't acknowledge that the hardcore gank groups are going to be attaining Emp very quickly, which will further the gap between casual pvpers. As a hardcore pvper who will be running a gank group ... I don't want a single bonus that isn't attainable by the masses.
Also these are not minimal passives :
Former Emperor: +6% health, magicka, and stamina combat regeneration.
Former Emperor: +4% Ultimate gains.
Former Emperor: +2% ability duration.
Completely agree. It s a team thing, besides I don t want some asshat to get Emperor thing, why would I want to help an ass win at anything. Just have it a realm thing, ie like in DAOC the relics were the thing to achieve, not some king of the realm idea. IMO, it s a stupid idea. DAOC was the model to follow, and they obviously did (bad take on it IMO) but why throw in this dumb mechanic, I ll never know.
Emperor's need to be removed from the game, it's a good idea on paper but the reality is giving one player than much power is absurd. That's failing to mention that after attaining the title they retain lesser versions of the passives. Most emperors also were sitting on siege engines to amass the Alliance points which also needs to be addressed. I made it to #4 on the leaderboards so was in the running for Emp ... but there's simply no way that this system is going to be acceptable when gank groups are running around in mass.
The passives you get after you have lost emperor-ship are very minimal. The biggest perk is getting the cosmetic armor set.
Giving one player that much power is not absurd. It's a very fun mechanic that will give players across the world a goal to strive for in PvP. Only on MMORPG.com would people cry about ONE person among tens of thousands having temporary OP passives which have to be earned.
The current way to "Earn" Emp is by sitting on siege to tag as many players as possible for Alliance points. That's not earning ... that's exploiting a broken system. Giving one player massive buffs when it's a complete team effort to attain the points is absurd. Leaving passives on one character who has attained Emp, no matter how minimal, is absurd. Having a system setup which will prohibit equality in pvp is absurd. We would be kidding ourselves if we didn't acknowledge that the hardcore gank groups are going to be attaining Emp very quickly, which will further the gap between casual pvpers. As a hardcore pvper who will be running a gank group ... I don't want a single bonus that isn't attainable by the masses.
Also these are not minimal passives :
Former Emperor: +6% health, magicka, and stamina combat regeneration.
Former Emperor: +4% Ultimate gains.
Former Emperor: +2% ability duration.
The 6% regen passives are worthless since the regen soft-caps can easily be hit with just gear enchantments alone.
4% ultimate gains is nice, but not something that could ever change a fight one way or another.
2% ability duration is almost un-noticeable. Even on the longest stuns (like Agony's 12 second stun if the stunned player takes no damage) that 2% equates to a whole quarter of a second longer! Pretty much is an un-noticeable passive...but a nice little perk for once being emperor.
If you want all PvP to be equal, go play an FPS or MOBA or arena PvP game. ESO is doing so many things right with AvAvA that is already putting it lightyears ahead of other PvP games...leave it so somebody on these forums to cry about it because it's something they'll never attain.
Emperor's need to be removed from the game, it's a good idea on paper but the reality is giving one player than much power is absurd. That's failing to mention that after attaining the title they retain lesser versions of the passives. Most emperors also were sitting on siege engines to amass the Alliance points which also needs to be addressed. I made it to #4 on the leaderboards so was in the running for Emp ... but there's simply no way that this system is going to be acceptable when gank groups are running around in mass.
Thats how going to an army telling them tanks are unfair delete them, we have no chance with our cars!.
The one who played like a freak to become Emperor is a true online warrior, why dont you give him honor. It's an amazing idea imo.
Emperor's need to be removed from the game, it's a good idea on paper but the reality is giving one player than much power is absurd. That's failing to mention that after attaining the title they retain lesser versions of the passives. Most emperors also were sitting on siege engines to amass the Alliance points which also needs to be addressed. I made it to #4 on the leaderboards so was in the running for Emp ... but there's simply no way that this system is going to be acceptable when gank groups are running around in mass.
Thats how going to an army telling them tanks are unfair delete them, we have no chance with our cars!.
The one who played like a freak to become Emperor is a true online warrior, why dont you give him honor. It's an amazing idea imo.
bolstered people have 900 armor 872 res to spell 1989 Hp also Armor weapon stats dont apply to bolstered people in WvW ..
A my build at lvl 50 should have 1900 hp 100 hp regen 50 hp steal on hit +healing DPS skill over all estimated passive heal =200 + Hp per second
physical res 1900
Magic resist 1500 Enchantment not added to this number because don't know how much Stat they give.
+ a buff that at lvl 50 would give 500 physical res and magic res
bolstered champs has no chance vs Emperor
people who complain about game being broken have no idea about the game ..... so shut up shame on you !
All that proves is that bolstering is obviously a placebo to placate the lowbies who don't want to feel like they are cannon fodder, but in fact are.
Bolstering is adjusted in patch v.0.18, in the recent betas bolstering didn't affect a lot of skills so that many of any level will be able to kill 1 single guy if he goes at them like that after adjustment.
That guy is a lvl 50 Emperor vs bolstered people auto attacking him....
Emperor = 50% more healing, 100% bonus to stamina/magicka/hp, 100% regen bonus, 200% ultimate gain...
A bolstered toon gets half the stats a normal level 50 has... since this guy was also an emperor he had 2-3 times the stats of everyone there. Since damage scales with total magicka.... he also did double damage...
Also, they did not CC him... imagine the same fights but people keep him stunned... he would die without being able to do anything. DK is not that OP, he killed other dk`s easy... because they were level 10-15 and bolster doesn`t even give you any crit or anything.
Your experience as a DK will not be the same unless you can convince people to auto-attack you.
Although I agree with your information, the fact that this sort of imbalance exists at all kind of sucks. Even without the Emperor bonus, the boosted characters stand practically no chance against normal 50's. Throwing some berserking emperor into the mix, with 2-3 times the stats as even the level 50's, throwing tons of aoe around IS just plain broken.
game not out yet, people already crying and calling for nerfs? people suck, really
balance is BORING. balance is impossible!
emperor is a nice feature. like jedi in original swg. few people will be emperor for a short time. they will be hunted and there will be cool fights and someone who earned being emperor can play god mode for a while. people will having fun on both sides.
but there will be whiners and crybabies like always. hey, the grass of my neighbour is greener than mine ....
I could continue the discussion until launch, but there really isn't a point. I think its a flawed system that needs to be removed, I suspect if it's left it will be changed substantially either in strength or attainability. As I posted in my first response I was number four on the leaderboard, that was without even trying to farm AP's. People are going to be in for a rude surprise when they see how effective hardcore pvpers are at racking up AP's and exploiting the imbalance for everything its worth. This isn't an award for being a skilled pvper, it's an award for sitting on siege the longest and literally playing 24/7 to ensure you're on top. If some people think this type of system is worthy in a gaming trying to capture the Daoc feel .... /sigh.
Comments
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
Agreed, but as much of a DAOC fan I am, one thing I could admit was it s imbalance/OP FOTM, crap. I see this game, way worse in that regard. It will have some fun for awhile, but I forsee alot of whine posts after release on this subject. I used to hate identical classes fighting each other, nw I find it s the better option.
Except for the part where the combat isn't tab targeted. Maybe, I dunno, try the game before talking about it?
All die, so die well.
Absolutely.
Heck, I can't think of a single RvR-like game that didn't feature massive amounts of whinning over balancing. Probably the least would be GW2, simply because that game was balanced around small-scale / 1v1 combat. Most other RvR games (and especially the good ones) are balanced around group play. ESO seems to have fairly good 1v1 balance, but the focus is still very much on group play.
Fighting against groups will put you at a disadvantage for the simple fact that they'll be throwing synergies at you. Most players don't really think this way, though. All they see is 'this is my character, they beat me, that's OP'. Very few players really think about the larger picture at all while playing these games. And thus, we get massive amounts of whinning about balance. 'So & so is OP because they used a spec that shuts down my own' type thing.
DK's are absolutely tough to deal w/ (even after the nerfs), but I can guaruntee that if any of those players were actually working together and playing tactically, they would've killed him. He was doing what i often do on my Templar. Exploiting the ignorance of others, by using a build that is very counterable, but extremely damaging if allowed to play how you want. Heavy Snares + DoTs, especially combined w/ the Immovable active, would've left that DK burning through his mana barely able to move. Even with cleanses he wouldn't have been able to keep them off himself long enough to do much.
Cyrodiil campaigns have Veteran versions just like Dungeons... so you're saying this V10 decided to play on the regular server and show him killing a bunch of level 10's with only a few hours of PVP?
Sadly there were a couple of high levels but most weren't from the PST server... they grinded a single repeatable quest on an empty server for a couple days before ZOS adjusted the quest XP. So scaling isn't that good in Cyrodiil in the Beta 17.1 version, which is stress test. It is better in the 18.0 version which should be stress tested this weekend or next.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
Hopefully version 18.0 will have better scaling, 17.1(the one shown) just kind of added a flat amount to all primary attributes, but not any regens, crits %, or damage reduction. Dude who was level 50 was probably regening their(the level 10s) entire Magicka Bar in a single tick.
I had a flashback to Star Wars Battlefront.
"Lord Vader has entered the battle!"
Found the 2 relevant pieces from the v0.18 patch notes that pertain to this video (video was 0.171)
Quests that originate in Bruma, Cheydinhal, Chorrol, Cropsford, and Vlastarus can now be completed once per 24 hour cycle (resetting at 6:00 AM EST). *This is the exploit people used to get to level 50 during the weekend only betas*
Battle bolstering now properly sets Spell Skill and Attack Skill values. (which means that level 50 would have been dead from the Skill damage pretty quickly.)
Emperor's need to be removed from the game, it's a good idea on paper but the reality is giving one player than much power is absurd. That's failing to mention that after attaining the title they retain lesser versions of the passives. Most emperors also were sitting on siege engines to amass the Alliance points which also needs to be addressed. I made it to #4 on the leaderboards so was in the running for Emp ... but there's simply no way that this system is going to be acceptable when gank groups are running around in mass.
The passives you get after you have lost emperor-ship are very minimal. The biggest perk is getting the cosmetic armor set.
Giving one player that much power is not absurd. It's a very fun mechanic that will give players across the world a goal to strive for in PvP. Only on MMORPG.com would people cry about ONE person among tens of thousands having temporary OP passives which have to be earned.
All that proves is that bolstering is obviously a placebo to placate the lowbies who don't want to feel like they are cannon fodder, but in fact are.
Agreed.
If they're going to have the emperor mechanic at all, it should mean something and he should be a force to be reckoned with whenever he's around... almost like a player-controlled dragon that we all raid to try to kill...except this dragon has friends.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
The current way to "Earn" Emp is by sitting on siege to tag as many players as possible for Alliance points. That's not earning ... that's exploiting a broken system. Giving one player massive buffs when it's a complete team effort to attain the points is absurd. Leaving passives on one character who has attained Emp, no matter how minimal, is absurd. Having a system setup which will prohibit equality in pvp is absurd. We would be kidding ourselves if we didn't acknowledge that the hardcore gank groups are going to be attaining Emp very quickly, which will further the gap between casual pvpers. As a hardcore pvper who will be running a gank group ... I don't want a single bonus that isn't attainable by the masses.
Also these are not minimal passives :
Former Emperor: +6% health, magicka, and stamina combat regeneration.
Former Emperor: +4% Ultimate gains.
Former Emperor: +2% ability duration.
Completely agree. It s a team thing, besides I don t want some asshat to get Emperor thing, why would I want to help an ass win at anything. Just have it a realm thing, ie like in DAOC the relics were the thing to achieve, not some king of the realm idea. IMO, it s a stupid idea. DAOC was the model to follow, and they obviously did (bad take on it IMO) but why throw in this dumb mechanic, I ll never know.
The 6% regen passives are worthless since the regen soft-caps can easily be hit with just gear enchantments alone.
4% ultimate gains is nice, but not something that could ever change a fight one way or another.
2% ability duration is almost un-noticeable. Even on the longest stuns (like Agony's 12 second stun if the stunned player takes no damage) that 2% equates to a whole quarter of a second longer! Pretty much is an un-noticeable passive...but a nice little perk for once being emperor.
If you want all PvP to be equal, go play an FPS or MOBA or arena PvP game. ESO is doing so many things right with AvAvA that is already putting it lightyears ahead of other PvP games...leave it so somebody on these forums to cry about it because it's something they'll never attain.
Thats how going to an army telling them tanks are unfair delete them, we have no chance with our cars!.
The one who played like a freak to become Emperor is a true online warrior, why dont you give him honor. It's an amazing idea imo.
Huh?
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
Bolstering is adjusted in patch v.0.18, in the recent betas bolstering didn't affect a lot of skills so that many of any level will be able to kill 1 single guy if he goes at them like that after adjustment.
Although I agree with your information, the fact that this sort of imbalance exists at all kind of sucks. Even without the Emperor bonus, the boosted characters stand practically no chance against normal 50's. Throwing some berserking emperor into the mix, with 2-3 times the stats as even the level 50's, throwing tons of aoe around IS just plain broken.
You make me like charity
game not out yet, people already crying and calling for nerfs? people suck, really
balance is BORING. balance is impossible!
emperor is a nice feature. like jedi in original swg. few people will be emperor for a short time. they will be hunted and there will be cool fights and someone who earned being emperor can play god mode for a while. people will having fun on both sides.
but there will be whiners and crybabies like always. hey, the grass of my neighbour is greener than mine ....